From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 19 12:15:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05537 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:15:01 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA14947 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:07:42 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:07:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200001191807.MAA14947@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1499 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1499 In this digest: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> IN on the web Re: IN> IN on the web Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] IN> Adventure Seed : B&B Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts RE: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Lilim are Demons RE: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Adventure Seed : B&B IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Re: IN> Adventure Seed : B&B Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons IN> fun quote Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons IN> Movies IN> Heresy site stuff Re: IN> Lilim are Demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:53:13 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 3:32 PM -0800 1/18/00, David Edelstein wrote: >So Lilim may like to think of themselves as unique and special, and >claim they're not really demons, but that's just how they cope with >being as damned as all the others. Yes yes yes yes yes yes YES. Lilim are essentially codependent beasties, in the name of Freedom. It's an irony. Their mother creates them, espouses how special they are and how undemonic they are, and the economics of Lilim-manufacture allows Free Lilim to exist. All of this lets a Lilim say to herself "I'm not a demon. Not really. I'm an outsider to all this. I'm special. I'm completely special." Meanwhile, they're bought and sold. Their mother sells them to Demon Princes all the time. She collects their debts and gives them to others. The Lilim take it, because it makes them feel precious, and they have the veneer of "freedom" in their slavery. It's codependence, pure and simple. And it doesn't change their demonic nature one bit. Their hearts get hot if an intruder picks it up. They're burnt by the Light of Heaven. And they are *selfish.* - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2000 21:54:17 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> IN on the web On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:13:08 -0800 David Edelstein wrote: >Douglas Muir wrote: >> For some reason, this seems to have been established as the standard for IN> web pages. It's not just David; SJG and others do the same thing. But> this just finally triggered a reaction. >> >> Am I the only one who finds this color combo annoyingly hard to read? > >I deliberately used "In Nomine style." I tried to pick shades that I >thought were sufficiently high-contrast that they shouldn't be too hard >to read. However, the nice thing about cascading style sheets is that >you can change the color scheme of your entire site by modifying a >single file. If lots of other people feel the same way, I'll try a >different scheme. add my name to the list of people who find this red/black contrast difficult to read. initially i was okay, but about a year ago the red shade started bleeding into the black, such that i have to highlight the text before it becomes clear enough to read. i don't have trouble with my own computer when i'm checking a bbs (my own settings are black background, red text), so i don't know how to suggest you alter things, but it is In Nomine on the web--your page and the SJG--that i have trouble with. Happiness is a laser designator and a friend in the artillery battalion. --Clayton A. Oliver ________________________________________________________________ For the best in comics, collectibles, original art and shopping, visit the Dark Horse Network @ . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:25:53 -0700 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> IN on the web Douglas Muir wrote: > For some reason, this seems to have been established as the standard for IN > web pages. It's not just David; SJG and others do the same thing. But > this just finally triggered a reaction. Actually, the Official In Nomine Website's color scheme is white on black, with red for links and gold for visited links. While the links sections may be kinda thick at times, they're just links. :) Frankly, I find white and red on black to be at least twice as easy to read as black on white. OTOH, I didn't draw up the original specs for the site, so I just like it; don't blame it on me. :) Anyway. I apologize for the problems in reading the site. The best I can tell you is to set your browser to display colors you like in preference to ours; I'd tell you to talk to the (at least) 3 people who need to okay site-design changes before I implement them, but that'd prolly be a Really Bad Idea. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:13:42 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] > > But are they *really* demons? A Free Lilim, if I recall correctly, > doesn't > > have a Heart... > > > > Nor Do Renegades, and they are Demons. True, but they started out *with* hearts. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:16:19 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] > > Um neither do the majority of demons in Hell, their stuck in Hell. A Heart > has nothing to do with being a celestial it has everything to do with easy > access to earth and your home Principality I'd completely forgotten about this... > As far as I'm concerned Lilim are demons. I'm still not convinced, but, then again, I don't run a canon universe, either. > > I have a theory about Lilith (and I'm going to ramble it at everyone, > especially the origional sender of this who didn't want my rite). Oh, I don't mind reading your ramblings... I just didn't want to get way off topic and be late for work the day I posted that! Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:22:06 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed : B&B B&B (Bed & Bondage) - -------------------------------- Basic setting : a local group of Andrealphites have realised the value of developing a location which they can use as a safe-house, blind, and occasional area for extracting victims. A charming Balseraph of their number has therefore made the acquaintance of a fluffy but sincere young woman, Maria, who runs a small "Bed and Bondage" Establishment. While staying at Maria's B&B -- called Alternatives -- guests are also welcome to use all the amenities of the house: an extensive dungeon in the basement, metal hooks tucked into lacy corners and the genuine antique bondage devices adorning the rooms. Of course, guests will also need to make their own pancakes -- B&B stands for bed and bondage here. Maria doesn't do breakfast. Now, normally this would just be way too fluffy and cute and sincere and affectionate a place for Lusties to be interested in, other than to corrupt it. I mean, the humans involved are caring about each other, they're engaging in _consensual_ sex . . . It's enough to cause spontaneous dissonance and acne. However, the most powerful Andrealphite locally (Bujeldi, the Balseraph) wants the place to look absolutely innocent to angelic investigation. With such a useful blind installed, Andrealphites can drop in and out at will, victims can be (very sparingly) recruited or kidnapped, and Maria can continue to run it in total ignorance. (She's kind-hearted, sincere, and Heaven-bound ultimately, but not the world's most perceptive person.) Problem : a group from the Game is making its usual well-beloved checkups, and has decided to pay a call on the Alternatives establishment, which they have heard is sponsored and used by Lust. Now, _if_ the place turns out to be innocent and consensual, most of the Andrealphites in the vicinity can expect charges of TREASON TO HELL and being dragged off to torture (and really, that's only fun when you're doing the dragging). Ergo, it needs to be turned into a hive of vice by tomorrow evening -- _without_ damaging Maria or her innocence and sincerity. Phone calls to friends that the Game won't recognise has been the most sensible idea yet, so that they can turn up spontaneously, pretend to be humans, and demonstrate how degenerate the place is. Very Unfortunate Complication : a prowling group of Laurencians is in the area, hot to strike down any minions of Evil. ("What, you don't have any Evil on the premises? Awwww...") However, being a Somewhat Enlightened group of Laurencians, they have reluctantly accepted that some counter-culture lifestyles may have elements of virtue and sincerity and honesty and other points which mean they can't just smite them with the full fury of righteousness. Consequently, they're going to look first and judge second, and slay third. And guess where they're about to turn up? Accidental Awkwardness : One of the actual, genuine guests is hosting a Shedite of Malphas, who is talking said guest into a divorce with all the inborn eloquence and persuasiveness of a Corruptor, and has somehow managed to include a visit to Alternatives as a logical and obvious step on this route. The Shedite may thoroughly confuse matters . . . especially if it figures out what's going on. Probable Situation : the PCs (Andrealphites, or hired by the Andrealphites to manage the situation) will have to manage things so that, _simultaneously_: a) the Game gets shown into and escorted round rooms where visiting Andrealphites are masquerading as humans and demonstrating proper demonically inspired behaviour. b) the Laurencians at the door are shown areas of the establishment with sincere and consensual humans doing things which may not be strictly inside the marriage bond (though some may!) but aren't demonic. Oh, and don't get spotted as a demon yourself. c) Maria, the owner, doesn't get corrupted. She's such a useful blind . . . Salt to taste . . . - --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:38:47 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons > So Lilim may like to think of themselves as unique and special, and > claim they're not really demons, but that's just how they cope with > being as damned as all the others. But they aren't any more damned than the others... or any less. It's a matter of choice. One way to look at it might be as the infernal analog to the Grigori. So close to human that they almost are... in the case of the Lilim they even a have a small (very small) part of thier nature which could be considered human. In a way that no other band could be considered to have. David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:10:41 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] ] > > > But are they *really* demons? A Free Lilim, if I recall correctly, > > doesn't > > > have a Heart... > > > > > > > Nor Do Renegades, and they are Demons. > > True, but they started out *with* hearts. Not Neccesarily, Demons do not automatically have a Heart, only Demons who travel to different Planes (arrrgghhh, is that the correct word? Brainfry....) get a Heart, you can run away without first having a heart. Perhaps it would have been more efficient and effective to say; Nor do most Demons and they are still Demons. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:14:46 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] _---- Original Message ----- From: "Azrael" > travel to different Planes (arrrgghhh, is that the correct word? Right word. Wrong game. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:33:18 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts ... is what I'm doing when I'm not working on IN stuff, or running WLP, right now. Anyone interested in a strategic PBEM email me off the list. While working on this, though, I had a thought: It is the future, and humanity has spread to hundreds of worlds. Heaven and Hell have avoided Armageddeon, both sides vying for advantage. And on a few worlds, Archangels and Princes seeking bases for the War have remade entire planets in their own image. Kronos and Asmodeus preside over the planet Hades. Laurence trains Soldiers of God on the planet Cathederal. If it has a price, it can be bought on Shal-Mari. For peace of mind and healing of spirit, seek Novalis on Sylvania. Any other ideas? Redneck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:03:12 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts > Any other ideas? For the best hang gliding in the galaxy visit Janus on Spendril In the shadows of Pirate Rock Valefor's pirate/smuggling ring holds council On the planet Exchange Marc's agents are willing to honestly sell you anything that can bought without the strings... On Medium the galaxy's news networks report the happenings of the universe (as it ought to be) On the brutal, high g world of Lithos David works to strengthen and prepare Mankind for the next phase-change Across the far corners of the galaxy Michael's elite but solitary Special Forcers are feared, and their training world of Victory is shrouded in mystery. The swamp moon of Necrosol IV is Saminga's personal and disgusting domain Go to Ix* for the latest technological marvel, but go to Progress if you want reliability. Well that seems to be all I can think of offhand. Trent Ofanite of Doubt *A bit of plagiarism never hurt anyone. 8) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:02:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, David Rodemaker wrote: > But they aren't any more damned than the others... or any less. It's a > matter of choice. One way to look at it might be as the infernal analog to > the Grigori. So close to human that they almost are... in the case of the > Lilim they even a have a small (very small) part of thier nature which could > be considered human. In a way that no other band could be considered to > have. Except that both the Shedim and the Impudites are closer to being human than the Lilim. Check out the "hierarchy" listed in the main book. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:06:43 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: RE: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts > >> Any other ideas? Guys don't forget Novalis & Jordi on Eden. Belial on the blasted volcano world of Char. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:22:59 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] "Kiara S. Legner" wrote: > True, but they started out *with* hearts. That's not correct. No demon starts out with a Heart, and the majority of demons never get one. Princes only create a Heart for demons who go to Earth. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:29:08 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons David Rodemaker wrote: > But they aren't any more damned than the others... or any less. Bingo. They're demons, no more, no less. >>>It's a> matter of choice. As much choice as any demon has. >>>One way to look at it might be as the infernal analog to> the Grigori. So close to human that they almost are... in the case of the > Lilim they even a have a small (very small) part of thier nature which could> be considered human. In a way that no other band could be considered to> have. They are distinct from other Bands in several ways (but then, every Band can consider itself "distinct" and "unique" in one way or another), and *Lilith* is unique in that she's human, yet celestial at the same time. But it's not really established that Lilim are particularly "human," and in fact the evidence runs against this. In terms of their closeness to humanity, they are analogs to the Malakim (food for other thoughts....), not the Grigori. (I know, I made reference to their "humanity" in an earlier post, but in retrospect, this was referring to their "Mother," and there's no hard evidence that any of her humanity is passed on to her "children.") - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:02:46 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Seed : B&B Fun. My only quibble is that it involves _three_ complications at once... Andre's visit, the Swordies showing up, and the Shed. That's a bit much IMO. OTOH, it's not hard to make one of them contingent on the other (viz., the Shed is following the Laurentians around, or vicey versa). Players seem to like it when things connect... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:10:06 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... ...of Death. Mentioned once in canon (in _Night Music_, in the writeup for Druiel), and never again AFAIK. Still part of canon? Or just a throwaway line that was never followed up? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:22:56 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Seed : B&B At 12:02 AM -0400 01/19/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Players seem to like it when things connect... But because they also like to destroy the best laid plans, let the players come up with the connections. Often they can come up with some realy paranoid ideas all on their own. Especially if you get them that paranoid to begin with. . . (My goal is to have the PC's visted by a Seraph, and later state that they think the Seraph was lying to them. . . [Prodigal, you never saw this. . . };;;> ]) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net * Technomancer, Six of Nine. # http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:58:10 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Douglas Muir wrote: > ...of Death. Mentioned once in canon (in _Night Music_, in the writeup for> Druiel), and never again AFAIK. > > Still part of canon? Or just a throwaway line that was never followed up? So far, never followed up in canon. My write-up of Azrael, the Archangel of Death, can be found at http://amadan.org/Innomine/Azrael.htm. I've submitted this for canon, but no telling whether he will ever appear officially. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:29:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Numinous Corpus Size -- Boosts size up or down. > > Isn't that really just the Celestial Song of Form, though? Very likely. I don't keep my IN books at work, so I can't check here. I'd suppose you could emulate any form of Numinous Corpus with Song of Form, in any case. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:52:27 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] In a message dated 1/18/00 6:16:38 PM Central Standard Time, PhoenixRising@horusinc.com writes: << > Nor Do Renegades, and they are Demons. True, but they started out *with* hearts. >> Not necessarily. From what I recall, demons, unlike angels, do not automatically have hearts. They are only given hearts if they are sent on an earth bound mission. I suppose if a Superior suspects a newly created servitor of wanting to go Renegade, he could create a heart for him for the sole purpose of keeping track. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:13:23 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] > > True, but they started out *with* hearts. > > That's not correct. No demon starts out with a Heart, and the majority > of demons never get one. Princes only create a Heart for demons who go > to Earth. Yup. I somehow forgot that in my musings.... So why, then, do angels have hearts and demons don't unless they go to earth? Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:27:20 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Subject: RE: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Making In Nomine into a space game unnecessarily dilutes the game and makes it lose focus. This is the, really, not too different from the discussion that came up earlier -- the one about worshippers on other planets and duplicates of the good vs. evil on every planet with sentient life -- and suffers from the same drawbacks. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:29:25 -0500 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] > From: "Kiara S. Legner" > So why, then, do angels have hearts and demons don't unless they go to > earth? Resource management. Do you have *any* idea how many Hearts that would be? How many demons you'd have to have watching them? How many demons you'd have to have watching the demons watching them? Far easier to create a Heart when the demon proves worthy of an Earth mission than to create one when the demon's created. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:34:26 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] At 9:13 AM -0600 1/19/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: > > > True, but they started out *with* hearts. > > > > That's not correct. No demon starts out with a Heart, and the majority > > of demons never get one. Princes only create a Heart for demons who go > > to Earth. > >Yup. I somehow forgot that in my musings.... > >So why, then, do angels have hearts and demons don't unless they go to >earth? I don't believe Angels are automatically given a heart either. The major reason Hell is stingy with them is because a Heart makes leaving Hell simple -- just ascend to Earth. (Well, descend, technically, but I like the imagry better.) Demon Princes only let their most favored (and most trusted) Servitors go to Earth, so only they get Hearts. Anyone else going to Earth needs to use a Tether, which are generally guarded. It also cuts down on Renegades. Now, Renegades *smash* their Hearts before they go to Earth, but I always assume the Renegade's "escape route" is mapped out before they make the run. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:40:45 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts >From: "Ben Glickler" >Making In Nomine into a space game unnecessarily dilutes the game and makes >it lose focus. This is the, really, not too different from the discussion >that came up earlier -- the one about worshippers on other planets and >duplicates of the good vs. evil on every planet with sentient life -- and >suffers from the same drawbacks. > >Ben > I think that depends on how far-reaching the space game is. Sure, I wouldn't try to merge In Nomine with, say, Star Trek, but in a still human environment, in which any 'aliens' would still be more animals than sentient, cognitive beings a space game would have some interesting ramifications. Plus maybe then ole Lucifer might deem having a Prince of Beasts as a worthy endeavor. But I will agree that were alien races start to appear (this includes the aliens from Alien) celestials would start to be nothing more than another alien race, which robs quite a bit from the actual premise of the game. Unless of course you go to some crazy alternate Star Wars universe where the Sith are actually diabolicals and the Jedi Knights are the angels... I still contend that Obi Wan was a Balseraph, though. Hmmm... Space IN, Prince of Beasts... Mmmmm... More potential projects for page. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Impudite of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, servitor of Kronos - ------------------------- Foaming at the Mouth http://rpg.net/news+reviews/sprite.html Touched by an Impudite http://www.insync.net/~sprite/ - ---------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:56:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Ben Glickler wrote: > Making In Nomine into a space game unnecessarily dilutes the game > and makes it lose focus. This is the, really, not too different > from the discussion that came up earlier -- the one about worshippers > on other planets and duplicates of the good vs. evil on every planet > with sentient life -- and suffers from the same drawbacks. I can think of two flavors for In Nomine where I do not think this dilution would be a factor. One is a comic style, where the incongruity of angels and aliens is simply another humorous factor. The other is in a grand, mythic game, where you choose to use the mythic themes of Science (cap S) rather than stuff out of the Marches. In that case, Cherubs In Space can give the celestials a truly cosmic angle. Suppose, for instance that you want to stage Armageddon at the end of the *universe*, not just the Earth? C. S. Lewis combined angels and aliens successfully in his Space Trilogy, particularly "Out of the Silent Planet." David Brin's Uplift series gives a hint of the same combination, with the epic feel and the hint of Providence in the background. Of course, IN puts the Providence in the foreground, which is very different, but still... Archangel Ifni, anyone? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:16:47 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 1:29 -0500 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >David Rodemaker wrote: >> But they aren't any more damned than the others... or any less. > >Bingo. They're demons, no more, no less. There's certainly nothing in canon that says otherwise. However, one can also make a *weak* case for them to be a third type of celestial, based on their non-reproducability and their minimal change when redeeming. (I really can't believe Vapula -- or Andre -- wouldn't have figured out how to make Lilim by now, if they were reproducable by Princes) The Aura thing may also point weakly this way -- angels and demons are generally indistinguisable via Aura, but Lilim are distinct. (An interesting question -- do Bright Lilim read as demons if they have Aura? Or is it that Aura'd Lilim really read as "Lilim", and most people equate "Lilim" with "demon"...? Even in my own campaign, the true nature of Lilim is a matter of only minor debate -- there's no real hard evidence that they're anything but another demonic Band, and 99% of the time, they're indistinguishable from other demons. Also, many celestials are really uncomfortable with the idea of Lilim as something different than angel/demon, so the vast majority of celestials on both sides simply treat them as normal demons. Only the Lilim themselves sometimes hold a different view, along with a few free-thinking philosophical speculators (mostly Elohim). >But it's not really established that Lilim are particularly "human," and >in fact the evidence runs against this. In terms of their closeness to >humanity, they are analogs to the Malakim (food for other thoughts....), >not the Grigori. I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the canon that they belong that far from humanity -- I suspect they were stuck in opposite the Malakim mostly to fill the hole in the Band order left by the un-Falling Virtues. I tend to treat them as about as human as Impudites, but with a different slant on things. Certainly the desscription of Lilim psychology supports this view better -- I find them a lot less alien to the human perspective than Malakim. >(I know, I made reference to their "humanity" in an earlier post, but in >retrospect, this was referring to their "Mother," and there's no hard >evidence that any of her humanity is passed on to her "children.") In my own game, I use the (non-canon) view that Lilim inherit a certain degree of human flexibility from their mother -- that is, they are slightly less rigidly-defined by their Band nature, and tend to be a bit more diverse in character than most celestials, both between different individuals, and over time with one individual. This may be a reflection of either Lilith's more-complex human nature, or her Word. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:22:53 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris At 9:29 -0500 1/19/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Very likely. I don't keep my IN books at work, so I can't check >here. I'd suppose you could emulate any form of Numinous Corpus >with Song of Form, in any case. I believe Form is stated in the Canticorum to be able to emulate the appearance of additional features, but not necessarily their function. I.e., it's more of a cosmetic change. The sex-changing option may be a special case, or it may take advantage of expressing latent other-gender features inherent in the structure of the vessel or host. (I seem to recall that in humans, at least, development of either set of sexual organs is possible, as long as the correct set of hormones is present during fetal development. So the DNA presumably codes both sets.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:34:14 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >From: Walter Milliken >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:16:47 -0500 > >At 1:29 -0500 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: > >David Rodemaker wrote: > >> But they aren't any more damned than the others... or any less. > > > >Bingo. They're demons, no more, no less. > >There's certainly nothing in canon that says otherwise. However, one can >also make a *weak* case for them to be a third type of celestial, based on >their non-reproducability and their minimal change when redeeming. (I >really >can't believe Vapula -- or Andre -- wouldn't have figured out how to make >Lilim by now, if they were reproducable by Princes) One could also argue that if Lilith is really not a demon she should be able to create angels at will, but since she's never canonically done that, that could also mean that she can't. And bright lilim are different enough from demonic lilim that you could tell. I can't believe that no archangel or demon prince /ever/ offered to pay for one. Could be useful for a prince; having a lilim servitor who isn't affected by the light of heaven, but is still loyal to you... And Lilith doesn't strike me as the type to let loyalties come in the way of a good deal. > > >But it's not really established that Lilim are particularly "human," and > >in fact the evidence runs against this. In terms of their closeness to > >humanity, they are analogs to the Malakim (food for other thoughts....), > >not the Grigori. > >I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the canon that they belong that >far from humanity -- I suspect they were stuck in opposite the Malakim >mostly to fill the hole in the Band order left by the un-Falling Virtues. Hmm. I think part of the point/ role of Impudites is to be the human-experts of Hell; that's what their IPG writeup implies to me. I see Lilim as much more alien, really. YMMV. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:00:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Jo Hart wrote: > One could also argue that if Lilith is really not a demon she should > be able to create angels at will, but since she's never canonically > done that, that could also mean that she can't. Yes, Lilith is a human, but she's a *damned* human. Going to Heaven or Hell is a state-change for a human, surely. That could be why she can't create Bright Lilim. If Lilith redeemed, maybe she could make only Brights. (Instantly imagines a campaign in which the Virgin Mary can create her own choir -- Marionites? Marionettes? Urk. They can fall and become Bloody Maries, but Mary can't make demons, even if she ever wanted to.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:14:05 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: IN> fun quote What, after all, is a halo? It's only one more thing to keep clean. -- Christopher Fry - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:16:54 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 12:00 PM -0500 1/19/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Jo Hart wrote: > > > One could also argue that if Lilith is really not a demon she should > > be able to create angels at will, but since she's never canonically > > done that, that could also mean that she can't. > >Yes, Lilith is a human, but she's a *damned* human. Going to >Heaven or Hell is a state-change for a human, surely. That could >be why she can't create Bright Lilim. > >If Lilith redeemed, maybe she could make only Brights. This is my take. I've actually postulated Lilith selling a Lilim to an Archangel, creating the Lilim on the spot from forces the Archangel provides, and presenting the Lilim, fresh but still demonic, for immediate redemption. No money back if the Redemption fails and the Lilim is destroyed, of course.... >(Instantly imagines a campaign in which the Virgin Mary can create >her own choir -- Marionites? Marionettes? Urk. They can fall >and become Bloody Maries, but Mary can't make demons, even if she >ever wanted to.) I more see Eve having the ability to create a Choir, assuming she's still around too. Mm... Eve as some antonym Archangel to Lilith's Demon Princess -- Archangel of the Devoted, perhaps? Archangel of Subordination? And her Eveiem or whatever we'd call them being the ultimate Servants? And the Fallen being the ultimate slaves and slavers? Lilith would have a *cow...* - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:26:04 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >From: Whistling in the Dark >I more see Eve having the ability to create a Choir, assuming she's >still around too. Mm... Eve as some antonym Archangel to Lilith's >Demon Princess -- Archangel of the Devoted, perhaps Archangel of Women? :) (I think that's what they did in INS) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:26:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I more see Eve having the ability to create a Choir, assuming she's > still around too. Mm... Eve as some antonym Archangel to Lilith's > Demon Princess -- Archangel of the Devoted, perhaps? Archangel of > Subordination? And her Eveiem or whatever we'd call them being the > ultimate Servants? And the Fallen being the ultimate slaves and > slavers? Lilith would have a *cow...* That could be interesting. Of course, in my campaign, Adam and Eve share a Word as the Patron Saints of Humanity. (In my campaign, humans can have Words; however, due to the nature of God in my campaign, a human Word must be shared between a man and a woman.) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:43:47 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: IN> Movies i was watching terry gilliam's film Time Bandits recently (for about the millionth time), and it occured to me that the big bad guy Evil made a very good Vapula... "if _I'd_ made the world, i wouldn't have bothered with slugs. first thing, day one, _lasers_!" it seems to me that films are abounding with good characters to base your playing of DPs on. hmm, other ones that spring to mind are; robert de niro in angelheart - asmodeus gabriel byrne in end of days - belial chris walken's gabriel - saminga viggo mortenson in the prophecy - baal i always find it easier to play an npc if i can draw inspiration from other characters. maybe i'm just not a good enough actor :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:47:12 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: IN> Heresy site stuff i'm banging together my website, including an IN section. i'd like to stick in a Heresy bit, with all the variant fallen/redeemed superiors that people posted to the list a while ago, cause i think it's cool. i've got them all sitting in a folder somewhere, i just wanted to check with you people who actually wrote 'em if that's alright with you, provided i credit you rpoperly and stuff liam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:51:31 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 9:26 AM -0800 1/19/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Whistling in the Dark > >>I more see Eve having the ability to create a Choir, assuming she's >>still around too. Mm... Eve as some antonym Archangel to Lilith's >>Demon Princess -- Archangel of the Devoted, perhaps > > >Archangel of Women? :) (I think that's what they did in INS) > I dunno -- that might be too positive. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1499 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.