From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 19 16:11:48 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11379 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:11:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA12411 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:06:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:06:58 -0600 Message-Id: <200001192206.QAA12411@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1500 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1500 In this digest: Re: IN> Heresy site stuff Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Re: IN> Artefact questions Re: IN> Heresy site stuff Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Lilim are Demons IN> Realms and Planes (Re: Where do Bright Lilim go?) Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris IN> Hearts... Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> IN on the web Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Heresy site stuff Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Re: IN> Lilim are Demons IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:13:57 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Heresy site stuff Fine by me. jo >From: "Liam Astley" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: IN> Heresy site stuff >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:47:12 -0000 > >i'm banging together my website, including an IN section. i'd like to stick >in a Heresy bit, with all the variant fallen/redeemed superiors that people >posted to the list a while ago, cause i think it's cool. i've got them all >sitting in a folder somewhere, i just wanted to check with you people who >actually wrote 'em if that's alright with you, provided i credit you >rpoperly and stuff > > >liam > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:22:22 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... >> ...of Death. Mentioned once in canon (in _Night Music_, in the writeup >>for> Druiel), and never again AFAIK. >> >> Still part of canon? Or just a throwaway line that was never followed up? > > >So far, never followed up in canon. Hm. Elizabeth? Any comment? >My write-up of Azrael, the Archangel >of Death, can be found at http://amadan.org/Innomine/Azrael.htm. I've >submitted this for canon, but no telling whether he will ever appear >officially. Interesting. Not sure if I like the background, but some of those attunements could be fun to play with. Nitpick: I notice that your Final Rest attunement costs 2 Essence to use, but that the angel would immediately get 1 Essence back (since freeing a ghost is a basic Rite). Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:59:58 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Artefact questions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Mind, you generally need materials from the realm of the artifact -- > which may mean you have to bargain with someone who can get there, > or knows someone who can. (Say, a sorcerer...) Or you might have to > steal same from the person who can get them. This is one of the more fun aspects of artifact creation: the gathering of the materials. Sure you _could_ just say "I'm gone for .83 years and return with the stuff I need." but it's much more interesting if you have to quest for "Baal's left toenail that was sheared off in the fight with Laurence over who would pay dinner last time." - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:29:06 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Heresy site stuff Nifty, that would definetly be cool to have up (I never got around to doing it being the lazy bum that I am). I have no problem with it, I did Andre and Novalis, so I'd love to see them up there. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:08:35 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Kris Overstreet wrote: > Any other ideas? Aliens? How do they fit in the Heaven/Hell schema? Do celestials disguise themselves as aliens with suitable vessels? Hi-tech options for humans. Pow! Zaaaap! Do clones have souls? Is interstellar communications instantaneous? This could be an interesting advantage for celestials since, apparently, you can just hop up to heaven and then down another Tether. Oooh, tethers! In space, no on can hear you take Celestial form. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:39:07 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >>There's certainly nothing in canon that says otherwise. However, one can >>also make a *weak* case for them to be a third type of celestial, based on >>their non-reproducability and their minimal change when redeeming. (I >>really >>can't believe Vapula -- or Andre -- wouldn't have figured out how to make >>Lilim by now, if they were reproducable by Princes) My take is that Lucifer wanted another Band of demons, to balance out the Malakim. Lilith did a good job setting them free and Lucifer decides to grant her a portion of his power, she gains the Lilim resonance and the ability to create Lilim. Lucifer decides that he'll never make a Lilim so that Princes believe its something unique to Lilith and it adds to the mystery of Lucifer giving a human a Word. Basicly I explain most weirdness of demonic things as the plans of Lucifer, because if he is going to realisticly rival God he'd better have his act together. Lilim unsettle both Heaven and Hell just a bit, when they Redeem they don't change much. There another Red Hearing, something that Lucifer does to distract people who ask questions. Because all those little weird things keep people from pondering the important questions, in fact they keep them from asking those important questions. IMC Lilim are demons who think there special and in a way are. There Lucifer's granddaughters, since Lilith is there only source she gets a good place in Hell. She may deal with heaven but she's too affraid of what a succesful Redemption might mean, let alone an unsuccesful one, to even try it. Beyond that she can't walk away from Lucifer, he can pull the plug on her Word, her powers and everything. All of her Geases can just stop working for her if Lucifer so deems it. They aren't any different from normal demons (except for the Lilith logo burnt into there 3rd Force) and they can't be reproduced seperatly because there is copy protection on there Forces (if you strip them to the 8 Forces they just start unraveling) and disecting one is a good way to have none work for you anymore. Vapula may have tried once or twice, but after figuring out it just kills the Lilim and makes Lilith suspicious he stopped. Andre has yet to seduce it out of Lilith, if he manages then he'll learn that the exact proccess is locked deep in her brain and blocked by something more powerful than the normal Superior info block. He's smart enough to realize that as the work of Lucifer and will probably let well enough alone. Questioning the Big Boss is a good way to get dead. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:04:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Realms and Planes (Re: Where do Bright Lilim go?) At 10:14 PM -0500 1/18/00, Gregory Gietzen wrote: >_---- Original Message ----- >From: "Azrael" > >> travel to different Planes (arrrgghhh, is that the correct word? > >Right word. Wrong game. ;) Actually, "plane" is one of the synonyms for "realm." The only one, now that I think of it. Celestial realm, celestial plane; corporeal realm, corporeal plane; ethereal realm, ethereal plain... But not capitalized! O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:08:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris At 9:29 AM -0500 1/19/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >Numinous Corpus Size -- Boosts size up or down. >> >> Isn't that really just the Celestial Song of Form, though? > >Very likely. I don't keep my IN books at work, (For shame! Whistling in the Dark does!) >so I can't check >here. I'd suppose you could emulate any form of Numinous Corpus >with Song of Form, in any case. Yes and no -- I think the NC have more effects for cheaper, slightly. Or at least more-defined combat (usually) effects. The size-changing thing was the only one that I'd have said was already _clearly_ under the aegis of CelForm. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:19:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Hearts... Okay, I think all this is canon or near-canon, except where I use things like "maybe" and stuff. If there's contradictory material somewhere, remind me! O:> At 10:34 AM -0500 1/19/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 9:13 AM -0600 1/19/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: >>So why, then, do angels have hearts and demons don't unless they go to >>earth? One reason is that Hearts are things that _love_ -- an angelic Heart presumably reflects that angel's place in the Symphony and how the angel fits in and is cared for, valued. Demonic Hearts sing their demon's personal symphony loud and clear, "you, you, you, wonderful you!" Archangels care about their Servitors having that explicit link, that connection and caring. Princes don't. (Relievers and demonlings are apparently too little to get Hearts. Maybe little reliever Hearts can only go, "Ping! Ping!" because they don't have a large effect on the Symphony yet. Maybe relievers can get Hearts but the call back to them isn't as strong as an angel's, so they don't do any _good_, except provide special effects while in Heaven.) Another reason to keep demons Heart-shy if you don't intend to send them to Earth (besides that there are just gobs of demons and a Prince can't be bothered to make Hearts for all of them) is that it means they have to either follow someone else up when ascending to Earth, or use a Tether, to get to Earth the first time. What keeps most demons from going to Earth unauthorizedly is that they have no _vessels_. Shedim can get there, but they'd better not fry their resonance trying to possess someone, because then they're out in the cold, can't get back to Hell, and get torn apart by the Symphony. (Besides, showing any non-authorized demon the way to Earth (using the "following" mechanics) is undoubtedly an Instant Renegade crime -- which any good (?) Shedite could exploit for blackmail, even if you aren't caught at it by your own Prince or the Game.) (Of course, that could be a fun trick for redemption-seeking Renegades who aren't caught at it yet -- go down, lure little Shedim into following you up to a certain point, and let all your new Malakite friends tear the little Shedim apart. Or sucker other types of demons into believing that you can get them vessels if they follow you up...) A Renegade who smashes his Heart can ascend to his last Earthly position -- and had better start running fast, if the Heart-guards are following him. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:17:46 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 08:27 AM 1/19/00 -0700, you wrote: >Subject: RE: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts > >Making In Nomine into a space game unnecessarily dilutes the game and makes >it lose focus. This is the, really, not too different from the discussion >that came up earlier -- the one about worshippers on other planets and >duplicates of the good vs. evil on every planet with sentient life -- and >suffers from the same drawbacks. That's your opinion. IMHO, IN is a genre-crossing game; you can set it in the Old West, in the Roman Senate, or on the forest moon of Endor, and the core of the work will remain; angels and demons fighting for supremacy while trying to keep humanity in general from finding out. Redneck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:28:56 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] From: "Kiara S. Legner" > > So why, then, do angels have hearts and demons don't unless they go to > earth? To make it harder for demos to get out of the clutches of their Princes, would be my guess on at least part of the reason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:36:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... At 1:22 PM -0400 1/19/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >>> ...of Death. Mentioned once in canon (in _Night Music_, in the writeup >>>for> Druiel), and never again AFAIK. >>> >>> Still part of canon? Or just a throwaway line that was never followed up? >> >>So far, never followed up in canon. > >Hm. Elizabeth? Any comment? The AA of Death is an unknown quantity for _me_. I don't know if he's going to be buried or used later either. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:30:37 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 03:08 PM 1/19/00 -0500, you wrote: > > >Kris Overstreet wrote: > >> Any other ideas? > > Aliens? How do they fit in the Heaven/Hell schema? >Do celestials disguise themselves as aliens with suitable >vessels? As you like. I was initially only amused by the concept of Cathederals or Principalities existing as theme-planets, the same way you have 'forest moons' and 'planet-wide cities'. If I were running a campaign, I would propose that there is one set of angels, but parallel creations of intelligent races. Earth was selected for the Eden project either at random, or perhaps as a support to the old claim that 'we are created in God's image.' As such, archangels are multipresent (not omnipresent) and working on dozens, hundreds of worlds at once, with servitors on all of them. > Hi-tech options for humans. Pow! Zaaaap! If you like. > Do clones have souls? I would say it depends; humanity's version of cloning probably would have souls, but Hell would be able to produce soulless homonunculi or prefabricated mummies by the six-pack. > Is interstellar communications instantaneous? Your campaign, your decision. }:-{D > Oooh, tethers! And Neptune becomes a giant Tether to Janus, with winds surpassing the speed of sound... }:-{D > In space, no on can hear you take Celestial form. Unless they're within about 20 kilometers of you, anyhow. }:-{D Redneck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:25:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 8:38 PM -0600 1/18/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> So Lilim may like to think of themselves as unique and special, and >> claim they're not really demons, but that's just how they cope with >> being as damned as all the others. > >But they aren't any more damned than the others... or any less. It's a >matter of choice. One way to look at it might be as the infernal analog to >the Grigori. So close to human that they almost are... in the case of the >Lilim they even a have a small (very small) part of thier nature which could >be considered human. In a way that no other band could be considered to >have. In canon, whether that makes a difference or not is up to the GM. But the books are going to lump them in under the catagory of "demons" when talking about all the Bands, and they _are_ all Hellborn, and they _are_ definitely all born infernal celestials. "Demon" may be a matter of semantics (or a campaign/plot element that actually has an effect on your universe!). (Non-demons can be infernal spirits -- imps, gremlins and other demonlings are certainly infernal, but they're not full-fledged demons. Likewise, relievers are divine or angelic spirits, but not full-fledged angels. Even if you want to play with the "Maybe Lilim aren't really demons per se" notion, there's a great weight of evidence to say that they _are_ infernal celestial beings.) (I am 99% sure that "Only Lilith (and _maybe_ Lucifer) create Lilim" is firm canon, though. Among other reasons, it's in the first expanded writeup of Lilith, and I haven't heard anything from SJ that suggests he wants to change it. Quite the opposite, actually. Whether Eli might have a chance at it is, at best, CDaU... O:> ) At 12:00 PM -0500 1/19/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >If Lilith redeemed, maybe she could make only Brights. >(Instantly imagines a campaign in which the Virgin Mary can create >her own choir -- Marionites? Marionettes? Urk. They can fall >and become Bloody Maries, but Mary can't make demons, even if she >ever wanted to.) That's twisted and evil. I like you. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:57:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN on the web At 4:25 PM -0700 1/18/00, EDG wrote: >Douglas Muir wrote: > >> For some reason, this seems to have been established as the standard for IN >> web pages. It's not just David; SJG and others do the same thing. But >> this just finally triggered a reaction. > >Actually, the Official In Nomine Website's color scheme is white on black, with >red for links and gold for visited links. While the links sections may be >kinda thick at times, they're just links. :) (If you _want_ to play the "change all the red text to white" game with the INC, EDG.... I won't gripe. The INC was red and black when I got it, and moved it to sjgames, long and long ago. So I just didn't bother messing with it. I don't _think_ it would require all sorts of permissions to change the INC -- just the official pages. Mind, the INC has so many boocoos of _individually color-altered_ pages, I don't blame you if you shudder and cry Nay, Nay!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:29:43 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Kris Overstreet wrote: > While working on this, though, I had a thought: > > It is the future, and humanity has spread to hundreds of > worlds. Heaven and Hell have avoided Armageddeon, both sides > vying for advantage. > > And on a few worlds, Archangels and Princes seeking bases > for the War have remade entire planets in their own image. [snip] Can't believe nobody mentioned Stella Inquisitoris, the space supplement for INS/MV (actually, it's a whole new damn book). Set in 6993, after space travel and Armageddon have been inflicted upon Humanity. Haven't actually read much of it, so can't tell you much. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Came whiffling through the tulgey wood, And burbled as it came ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:49:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 2:30 PM -0600 1/19/00, Kris Overstreet wrote: >At 03:08 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Karakash (I think) wrote: >> Do clones have souls? >[...] but Hell would be able to produce soulless homonunculi or >prefabricated mummies by the six-pack. I thought this was In Nomine Space speculations, not In Nomine Paranoia... O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:44:09 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Where do Bright Lilim go? [Was: Re: IN> Re: APG, 2nd edition] "Kiara S. Legner" wrote: > So why, then, do angels have hearts and demons don't unless they go to > earth? I'm not sure if all angels are given Hearts -- can't remember what canon says about it. If they are, it's because Archangels don't worry about their Servitors running away from them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:45:55 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Ben Glickler wrote: > Making In Nomine into a space game unnecessarily dilutes the game and makes> it lose focus. It's been done, by Croc. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:52:57 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Walter Milliken wrote: > (I really> can't believe Vapula -- or Andre -- wouldn't have figured out how to make > Lilim by now, if they were reproducable by Princes) I can. There are a lot of techniques that many Superiors would *like* to be able to reproduce, but simply haven't learned how to yet. > I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the canon that they belong that > far from humanity -- I suspect they were stuck in opposite the Malakim > mostly to fill the hole in the Band order left by the un-Falling Virtues. I think there are interesting parallels between the oaths that bind Malakim and the Geases that bind Lilim. > I tend to treat them as about as human as Impudites, but with a different > slant on things. Certainly the desscription of Lilim psychology supports > this view better -- I find them a lot less alien to the human perspective > than Malakim. That's probably because they're constantly being depicted as diabolical supermodels, basically. Think of beings that are *incapable* of relating to others except in terms of favors owed and desired, where every interaction is a negotiation whose end goal is getting the most for yourself. Sure, they're really good at *acting* human, but only the most utterly selfish of humans can understand their mindset, and most Lilim are incapable of understanding selflessness. Now, some might learn to understand it, at least intellectually, and better than a Balseraph or Djinn or other more diabolical Band....but Shedim and Impudites understand selflessness better than Lilim do, and they understand normal human motives and urges better as well. (It doesn't mean Shedim and Impudites are themselves more selfless than Lilim, but they can get into the human mindset.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:55:33 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Heresy site stuff Liam Astley wrote: >>>i just wanted to check with you people who > actually wrote 'em if that's alright with you, provided i credit you > rpoperly and stuff You can include a link to my Fallen Gabriel and Outcast Laurence write-ups. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:02:51 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Mysterious Archangel... Douglas Muir wrote: > Nitpick: I notice that your Final Rest attunement costs 2 Essence to use,> but that the angel would immediately get 1 Essence back (since freeing a> ghost is a basic Rite). Correct, but the Rite is only usable once per day. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:00:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Walter Milliken wrote: > (I really> can't believe Vapula -- or Andre -- wouldn't have figured > out how to make Lilim by now, if they were reproducable by Princes) David Edelstein wrote: > I can. There are a lot of techniques that many Superiors would *like* > to be able to reproduce, but simply haven't learned how to yet. Also remember that every Prince thinks, feels, and lives through the focus of his Word. The catch may be that making Lilim is something that HAS to involve the Word of Freedom. Look at the other two examples of customized choir/band -- the Menuim of Blandine and the Pachadim of Beleth. The one is designed to inspire hope, the other to inspire fear. They are clearly linked to the Words of their creators. Lilim are designed to run "free enterprise" (as Lilith understands Freedom), and so necessarily spring from the Word of Freedom. Heck, Lilith might be able to give lectures and demonstrations on How I Cook Up Lilim, on the Hellwide Nybbas Network, and all the cleverest Princes could take copious notes, step by step, but when they try it for themselves, they just get cute green Impudites or something. Or more likely they'd see it was futile to try, because they would have to have a different Word than the one they do. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:02:12 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: IN> IN: Infinity This has bothered me for a while (I don't get out much). Do alternate worlds have alternate angels, or archangels, or Gods? Are there worlds where Lucifer won the war in heaven, and now rules (or thinks he rules) in the place of God, or worlds where God watched the Eden Project go pear-shaped and thought "sod it, I knew I should have gone with the lizards"? My thoughts on this is that God sees all alternate worlds all at once (one of the reasons He's not terribly communicative), and is the centre from which all possible worlds "radiate". Beyond that thought, my brain turns to slurry. Maybe Uriel wasn't taken to the Higher Heavens, but instead was "transferred" to another reality, there to make good on the errors made in it's previous reality... I recently read the DC Comics Justice League graphic novel, "Earth 2", which set all sorts of images of the Archangels and angelic player characters facing fallen versions of themselves, while the Demon Princes and demonic pc's encountered versions of themselves who never fell. Does anyone else ever think of this stuff, or am I just exposing my low level of medication again? :-) Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:15:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity My main feeling about alternate worlds is, if you are going to have them, only have a finite number. In the non-IN campaign I'm currently in, we have only had contact with half-a-dozen or so, and gather that there are only a few dozen known to science. (No one knows what causes them. My character is the only one who even theorizes, and the others nod and say, "That's nice.") The problem with vast numbers, or literal infinitudes, of parallel world, is that they scuttle the point of free will -- a major consideration in In Nomine. It is, in fact, a bizarre form of determinism, in which every choice is guaranteed to go ALL ways, My own impulse, given a small selection of parallel worlds, would be to have one Heaven and one Hell for them all. They are, in effect, multiple Corporeal Realms, or divisions of that realm. (If you have only one Ethereal Realm, too, this and the single Celestial Realm partly explain what keeps the parallel worlds in parallel. Everyone goes to the same Marches when they dream, and everyone's history is being jiggered by the same Princes and Archangels.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:25:25 -0600 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 03:49 PM 1/19/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 2:30 PM -0600 1/19/00, Kris Overstreet wrote: >>At 03:08 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Karakash (I think) wrote: >>> Do clones have souls? >>[...] but Hell would be able to produce soulless homonunculi or >>prefabricated mummies by the six-pack. > >I thought this was In Nomine Space speculations, not In Nomine Paranoia... >O;> The two are not mutually exclusive, especially in a -good- game. }:-{D Redneck (Asmodeus is your friend.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:44:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Infinity At 4:02 PM -0500 1/19/00, Doctor TOC wrote: >This has bothered me for a while (I don't get out much). Do alternate >worlds have alternate angels, or archangels, or Gods? This is _so_ much up to the GM.... (Canon IN doesn't _have_ alternate worlds. As far as anyone knows or is telling.) However, in my own private "someday I wanna do this" notion involving Yrth (the GURPS Fantasy world), I postulated that the alternate world was "clean" -- no Princes, no Archangels, no Lucifer. No interventionist God. No ethereal gods. (Whereupon the first celestial contamination might have... fun effects.) The other way I'd handle this is as "potentials" that God's mind (aka the Symphony, in some ways) can comprehend. Don't get lost in the twisting strands of Might Have Been or Might Be... How would you get there? Maybe an odd Tether, maybe somewhere in the Far Marches that bridges the ethereal and Other. Maybe in Limbo... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:34:33 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts - -----Original Message----- From: Sam Kington >Can't believe nobody mentioned Stella Inquisitoris, the space supplement >for INS/MV (actually, it's a whole new damn book). Set in 6993, after >space travel and Armageddon have been inflicted upon Humanity. Haven't >actually read much of it, so can't tell you much. I have. It's splendid, even if one would have problems fixing it to IN/SJ. Let's see -- the Stella Vaticanum is a star-spanning empire centering on Earth and is run openly by the Seven Apostles (all human, elected from the Church -- the _Catholic_ church, naturally) and openly advised by the Archangels. The existence of angels is widely known. The Dunkle Reik, otoh, is a star-spanning empire run openly by the Demon Princes, each of whom owns a star system or two, and models it in his own image. The book had a couple of pages for each of them -- some *lovely* ideas, which I assure my PCs I have taken pains to save. The language of the Stella Vaticanum is Latin, everything operates by the grace of God and one must pray before using it (and if your car engine fails to work it just means your faith wasn't strong enough), women have a subordinate place, the Inquisition is a very present force (brainwashing, anybody?) and it's all the bad elements taken to the nth degree. Laurence has gone totally megalomaniac, manifesting as a big blond type, and leads the Legions (who are rather Warhammer 40K in style) to victory over God's foes. The Dunkle Reik is much more varied in style. The official languages are English and German (which everyone knows are the languages of the devil) and customs differ between solar systems, according to the way the Prince has set things up for his planets. At the moment, the two sides more or less have a stalemate. There are also some planets/systems settled by human neutrals, the most prominent of which is the system settled by Vikings (with whom the SV has a treaty, arranged by Michel (Michael), which is more or less honoured). Other unprotected planets or small systems are liable to be gobbled up by the SV or the DR, whoever finds them first. (You want to join us . . . or else.) I'm not sure how it'd be to play, but it was definitely fun to read. There was also an amusing scenario, which dumps some angels from the "modern day" into a time-travel experiment, leaving them on Samigina's (DP of Vampires) main planet, "Hammer One". They just have to avoid all the demons and vampires, make their way into the admin centre, and try and get back . . . Genevieve (no, monsieur l'Inquisitor, I swear it was for the greater glory of God, I am a loyal daughter of the Church, have mercy, je vous en prie . . . ) - --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:45:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Okay, what's "Dunkle" mean? I can see why a previous post said Stella Inquisitorius was set after Armageddon. It explains why the celestials are operating out in the open. Are the "Seven Apostles" selected from the actual Biblical apostles? (I mean, it's hardly impossible in a setting like that.) Or are they newly elected from the ranks of the living? How do they rank relative to the Pope, or is the Pope still around? (I presume all other religions were swept away in Armageddon?) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:55:21 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity >From: Doctor TOC >This has bothered me for a while (I don't get out much). Do alternate >worlds have alternate angels, or archangels, or Gods? Are there worlds >where Lucifer won the war in heaven, and now rules (or thinks he rules) >in the place of God, or worlds where God watched the Eden Project go >pear-shaped and thought "sod it, I knew I should have gone with the >lizards"? >Doctor TOC I would assume so, yes. Actually, I think about this kind of stuff quite a bit... almost too much. Alternate Universes games are pretty much a staple in my GM repetoire. I think George Alec Effinger had a really good take on AU's in the end of the 'The Zork Chronicles' book, in which he states that every decision that could be made (which includes evolution) has an myriad of alternate universes. Also, John DeChancey's 'Castle Perilous' series is the *best* alternate universe book series. Here's a puzzler: if celestials go back in time, do the changes they make affect the future, thus when they return to their 'home' time are they actually ending up in an alternate universe - or are the changes they made already in place and therefore they return to their own universe? ...This is the kind of stuff I think of while staring at my celing at 3:00 a.m. Enjoy. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Impudite of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, servitor of Kronos - ------------------------- Foaming at the Mouth http://rpg.net/news+reviews/sprite.html Touched by an Impudite http://www.insync.net/~sprite/ - ---------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:58:27 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 15:30 -0500 1/19/00, Kris Overstreet wrote: >If I were running a campaign, I would propose that there is one set of >angels, but parallel creations of intelligent races. Earth was selected for >the Eden project either at random, or perhaps as a support to the old claim >that 'we are created in God's image.' As such, archangels are multipresent >(not omnipresent) and working on dozens, hundreds of worlds at once, with >servitors on all of them. Another thing you could do is make the universe Cambellian -- no alien races, but distinct human races on multiple planets, presumably originating independently. One would assume there was something in the Symphony's thematic structure that required intelligent life to be human. (Possibly even all life forms are implicit in the Symphony, and some subset of them would be found on every planet with life.) This notion contradicts modern hypotheses on independent evolution on other planets. On the other hand, discovering such a pattern would pretty much require scientists to postulate some sort of universal control of evolution, which would look like something very similar to God. And since In Nomine *presumes* the existence of God, this would work out fine. (Though there'd be some interesting effects on human culture once this was discovered....) >> Do clones have souls? I would tend to say yes for human-created clones, much like human babies get them. Any created by celestial techniques probably wouldn't, though celestials could still use strictly mundane cloning technology and get souled beings. >> Is interstellar communications instantaneous? A similar question is whether Kyriotates are light-speed limited. This came up when we were doing GURPS IN. I believe the mechanics I gave them in GURPS make them instantaneous. And if they can do that, then there exists at least one form of instantaneous interstellar comm. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:03:09 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Another random thought on this thread.... >> Is interstellar communications instantaneous? If celestials can get around or communicate faster than light, then maybe human FTL technology would be some form of celestial tech. Can't you just see angels and demons cursing all the starships taking the shortcut through the celestial realm...? Now that I think of it, this could actually be a pretty amusing twist on the game, especially if humans were unaware of the nature of "hyperspace".... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:06:44 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Okay, what's "Dunkle" mean? Looks like a perversion/Frenchification (I don't know French) of the German "Dunkelreich," which would mean "Dark Empire." Very subtle, these Demon Princes. I like the American IN much better. We don't *have* to have our celestials be insane. Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:03:58 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 19 January 2000 21:49 Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts >Okay, what's "Dunkle" mean? That one puzzles me, too. Sorry. >I can see why a previous post said Stella Inquisitorius was set >after Armageddon. It explains why the celestials are operating >out in the open. Yup. We've had the Beast (Lucifer's son), we've had wars all over the place, we've had the destruction of most of Earth, we've had nuclear wars and planetkiller weapons . . . >Are the "Seven Apostles" selected from the actual Biblical >apostles? (I mean, it's hardly impossible in a setting like that.) >Or are they newly elected from the ranks of the living? How do >they rank relative to the Pope, or is the Pope still around? >(I presume all other religions were swept away in Armageddon?) They relate to a group of seven men who nuked the Earth when it was in diabolical hands and somehow escaped (divine intervention is suspected). After this, the Archangels (who had been directing the war) gave over control to them, but stayed as very close advisors. (Well, some Archangels. Dominique is extremely powerful, but these days Novalis is in a padded cell in permanent drug withdrawal, and insists that pink elephants bring him LSD . . . okay, so the INS/MV Novalis is male and much more of a druggie than the SJG Novalis, and Bob Marley was his direct son . . . but I digress.) Other religions got seriously persecuted by Catholicism a la Dominique (and a la Joseph, Archangel of the inquisition) and while they occupy a few planets on the fringes, aren't really major powers. - --- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1500 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.