From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 20 07:17:01 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24711 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:17:00 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA23495 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:14:26 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:14:26 -0600 Message-Id: <200001201314.HAA23495@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1501 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1501 In this digest: Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Atheism again Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Atheism again Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Infinity IN> IN Wild Cards/My Email. RE: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts IN> NPBEM Webpage IN> IRC Gaming Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:07:35 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity At 16:02 -0500 1/19/00, Doctor TOC wrote: >This has bothered me for a while (I don't get out much). Do alternate >worlds have alternate angels, or archangels, or Gods? Are there worlds >where Lucifer won the war in heaven, and now rules (or thinks he rules) >in the place of God, or worlds where God watched the Eden Project go >pear-shaped and thought "sod it, I knew I should have gone with the >lizards"? This is either CDaU or canon is limited to a single reality. I tend to lean toward the latter, which makes the question moot. There are clearly "potential" futures, but these can be modified by celestial actions, including acts of Will by humans. >Does anyone else ever think of this stuff, or am I just exposing my low >level of medication again? :-) I know Maya was running a somewhat fluffy "alternate universes" game at one point. Maybe she was off her meds, too.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:00:48 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity >From: Earl Wajenberg >My own impulse, given a small selection of parallel worlds, would >be to have one Heaven and one Hell for them all. They are, in >effect, multiple Corporeal Realms, or divisions of that realm. >(If you have only one Ethereal Realm, too, this and the single >Celestial Realm partly explain what keeps the parallel worlds in >parallel. Everyone goes to the same Marches when they dream, and >everyone's history is being jiggered by the same Princes and >Archangels.) > >Earl Actually, I rather like the idea of a singular Marches spanning the multiverse and each reality having it's own Heaven and Hell, after all there have to be universes where Uriel didn't accend, Lilith took part in the Eden experiment, etc. But the Marches being the factor that ties it all together.. hmmm... That might make the Far Marches the nexus for the Alternate universes. Ewww... Multiple Cthulhu's for different realities. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Impudite of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, servitor of Kronos - ------------------------- Foaming at the Mouth http://rpg.net/news+reviews/sprite.html Touched by an Impudite http://www.insync.net/~sprite/ - ---------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:18:14 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 17:52 -0500 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: >> (I really> can't believe Vapula -- or Andre -- wouldn't have figured out how to make >> Lilim by now, if they were reproducable by Princes) > >I can. There are a lot of techniques that many Superiors would *like* to >be able to reproduce, but simply haven't learned how to yet. I think that, in most cases (secret Songs come to mind), this is mostly because they haven't been able to examine the phenomenon firsthand. Earl's point about the Word-specialized minor Choirs and Bands is perhaps more telling -- Lilim may actually be a "minor" Band that has a disproportionate presence. However, if you insist one mapping them into the hierarchy of major Choirs/Bands, this is a bit harder to swallow -- they'd be the only "Word-restricted" Band in the major hierarchy. >> I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the canon that they belong that >> far from humanity -- I suspect they were stuck in opposite the Malakim >> mostly to fill the hole in the Band order left by the un-Falling Virtues. > >I think there are interesting parallels between the oaths that bind >Malakim and the Geases that bind Lilim. But would those parallels even come to mind if Lilim hadn't been placed in that spot in the hierarchy? I don't think so.... >That's probably because they're constantly being depicted as diabolical >supermodels, basically. Think of beings that are *incapable* of relating >to others except in terms of favors owed and desired, where every >interaction is a negotiation whose end goal is getting the most for >yourself. Sure, they're really good at *acting* human, but only the most >utterly selfish of humans can understand their mindset, and most Lilim >are incapable of understanding selflessness. I think it's more than *acting* human -- canon pretty much says that they tend to enjoy themselves in rather human ways, much more so than other demons. They're not focused on deal-making to the exclusion of other activities, which is why I find this argument somewhat weak. > Now, some might learn to >understand it, at least intellectually, and better than a Balseraph or >Djinn or other more diabolical Band....but Shedim and Impudites >understand selflessness better than Lilim do, and they understand normal >human motives and urges better as well. I don't think there's any support in canon for the notion that *any* demons really understand selflessness, except those that are maybe headed for redemption. *Use* the selflessness of others, yes, but understand it? No. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:16:34 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity >This has bothered me for a while (I don't get out much). Do alternate >worlds have alternate angels, or archangels, or Gods? Are there worlds >where Lucifer won the war in heaven, and now rules (or thinks he rules) >in the place of God, or worlds where God watched the Eden Project go >pear-shaped and thought "sod it, I knew I should have gone with the >lizards"? I have something like it IMCs where there is a limited God with limited resources who can't touch the Symphony too often or it might break. Basicly in the Higher Heavens God notices that there is nothing above him, there just is a solid nothing indicating that there is no higher being than God. In the lower hells there is a solid nothing making up the floor of Lucifer's throne room, indicating Lucifer is at the perfect other end of reality. However in both places the walls on the sides are not so definite, and both God and Lucifer believe that on the other side of those walls are other realities where things went differnetly. Each of those worlds might have started differently, but they are totally seperate indicating realities whose laws may be different. For parellell worlds that players may actually interact with I tend to use ethereal realms. I'm a big fan of dream scapes having leakage and forming dream worlds from specific elements of dreams (for example stealing ideas from Changeling I have dream reflections of physical locations). Sometimes celestials accidently reach a realm they believe to be corporeal, has an entirely different lay out of 'celestial' and 'ethereal' reality in addition to being a different corporeal reality than expected and only after figuring out there are some limits (based on how much essence it gets) do they realize their simply in an ethereal realm. The one time I did a WoD cross over was in one of these realms, the players were totally confused and the characters weren't much better off. Eventually one of them realized that there were some holes in the places internal logic and realized that it was merely a very solid dream realm that had enough essence pumping into it to maintain an entire world. Once they realized it was only a dream they were free to leave, but of course they decided to let loose on some of the more annoying denizens. I personally wouldn't open the can of worms that is involved in multiple realities within IN that are all equally valid and can reach eachother. For example Dominic is likely to believe the idea the highest blasphemy, things are unfolding the way God demanded them to. Also if God is God in numerous realities there really isn't any hope at all for Lucifer, or all the Lucifers if you have multiple Heavens/Hells. I do think it is more workable to have multiple corporeal realities, or even multiple ethereal realities, but once you get to multiple celestial realities you either have to keep them seperated or be in for a world of hurt as you try and ponder out exactly how they are going to interact. Its all well and good if there are mutliple realities, however most celestials have trouble dealing with one, through another in the mixand there likely to just give up. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:59:47 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Arendall" > Here's a puzzler: if celestials go back in time, do the changes they make > affect the future, thus when they return to their 'home' time are they > actually ending up in an alternate universe - or are the changes they made > already in place and therefore they return to their own universe? Okay, we're on my turf now. I spent five years studying to be a cosmologist before I went into theatre, just so I could crack the secrets of time travel. If ANYONE goes back in time, and then returns to their own time, by definition they have entered an alternate reality. If they did not, they incur the wrath of Paradox (sorry, Mage: the Ascension there). Imagine a scenario, say, where the PCs travel back in time to warn Uriel about the consequences of the Purity Crusade. If they go back to their own time, then they have entered a timeline where the Crusade never happened, meaning they couldn't have gone back to warn Uriel, because they cannot know about it. Because they didn't warn Uriel, the Crusade DID happen, which motivates them to go back in time to warn him... And you have a universe spiraling the drain. Another scenario is where the PCs get a crucial piece of information because their future selves sent a message back to aid them "now." The trouble here is: where did the information come from? If the PCs did not know it "now," how could the future PCs be aware of it? This is why you can't just say "when time travel is invented, I'll send myself [meaning "now"] back the plans for the time machine," and start hopping through space-time. The alternative lies in the premise of quantum histories, which describe an object as the sum of all the POSSIBLE occurrences in its existence. Instead of defining your character as the stats on a sheet of paper, the character is the sum of all the die rolls you could have made/failed, all the choices you could have made differently, etc. If you consider the quantum histories of Earth, you essentially get the premise of the show "Sliders," wherein there are an infinitude of divergent Earths where things are different (Hitler won the war, Kennedy wasn't killed, etc.) So when you go back in time and change something, you return NOT to the world you knew, but to an alternate world whose defining difference is that you went back in time and changed something. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:11:48 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Milliken" > Now that I think of it, this could actually be a pretty amusing twist > on the game, especially if humans were unaware of the nature of > "hyperspace".... Actually, hyperspace theory (or Kaluza-Klein theory and its relatives) has touched on the idea that God might "simply" be a creature from a higher dimension. Another variation from this, is the idea that God is a higher dimensional creature, as are all the angels, and when Lucifer was expelled from Heaven, he was thrown "down" (kata is one word used to approximate 4D down, as is delta) and got partially stuck in the 3rd dimension. If you think of a pond of water, and you dunk the tips of your fingers in, without submersing your whole hand, to a creature in the pond (hypothetically unable to look up in 3D), your fingers would look like five separate entities. Now, if you imagine laying on a raft of some sort, staying above water, but letting JUST your fingers and toes go in the water, you suddenly have 20 separate entities, of two "species" (fingers & toes). To the hypothetical creature, you would have phenomenal power. If it attacked a finger, you could simply pull that finger out of the water until it heals. Or you could move your other hand over, and attack it from behind. Now extrapolate up from this -- picture Lucifer as the being on the raft, in the 4th dimension. What we perceive as demons are just his "fingers..." The same way, perhaps, that angels are a voluntary projection of God's "fingers" into this realm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:27:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity At 5:59 PM -0500 1/19/00, Gregory Gietzen wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Erich Arendall" > >> Here's a puzzler: if celestials go back in time, do the changes they make >> affect the future, thus when they return to their 'home' time are they >> actually ending up in an alternate universe - or are the changes they made >> already in place and therefore they return to their own universe? > >Okay, we're on my turf now. I spent five years studying to be a cosmologist >before I went into theatre, just so I could crack the secrets of time >travel. > >If ANYONE goes back in time, and then returns to their own time, by >definition they have entered an alternate reality. If they did not, they >incur the wrath of Paradox (sorry, Mage: the Ascension there). To ramble in an entirely different genre... In a GURPS Space game, we decided we wanted to break away from the old universe -- but keep our characters. So we went back in time, stopped an interstellar war before it could start, and hopped back in our time machine hyperdrive. (Don't let hypertechies get 'hold of proto TL13 tech and absently give some of it TL16 abilities...) When we got forward to our time (now modified), the character took the place of their "Timeline B" analogs. Basically, they appeared in the first universe that stemmed from their actions in the past _and_ included analogs of them who were in the right place at the right time. (This resulted in a pair of starships forming "around" the analogs.) For a long time, the "Timeline A" characters only had their own memories, but eventually the timeline B memories leaked through -- we were having mild split personality blackouts for a while there, though. O:> But that seemed to work pretty well, so if I ever ran IN timetravel in a game of mine, I'd probably do something like that. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:18:13 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts I'm replying to my own post here, as I forgot to mention this: If you're interested in the powers higher dimensional beings have over lower, you can find Edwin A. Abbott's whimsical classic "Flatland" here: http://www.cms.dmu.ac.uk/~djh/public/publishers/flat10/flat10.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:50:42 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Atheism again From: Whistling in the Dark > Strong Tea: I have a need for a rarified experience that will > invigorate my senses and awaken my soul to higher things. > > Weak Tea: I have proof that there is no God. erm, i only just read this e-mail, due to it being randomly sent to a folder somewhere, but i know have to state that this is the Funniest Thing Ever (tm) hmm, do you think the Angel of Nice Cups of Tea fights pitched battles against the Demon of Caffeine Addiction? liam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:44:52 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Milliken" > >> Is interstellar communications instantaneous? > > A similar question is whether Kyriotates are light-speed limited. This > came up when we were doing GURPS IN. I believe the mechanics I gave them > in GURPS make them instantaneous. And if they can do that, then there exists > at least one form of instantaneous interstellar comm. I was musing on the implications of this... If a Kyriotate can travel faster-than-light, then Heaven has a tremendous edge in the War. Time dilation: As speed increases, time decreases. (The faster you go, the slower you age.) Einstein was fond of the twins paradox. One twin stays on Earth. The other goes in a rocket travelling near the speed of light. The rocket goes out a little way, and then turns around. When the twins meet up, the Earthbound one is perceptibly older than the rocketship twin. A Kyriotate inhabits a vessel, leaving the remaining Forces free-floating. These forces then travel FTL for a little while, and then stop, popping around various hotspots of the War to see what's going on. Because it's the SAME ENTITY, the vessel-bound half shares knowledge with the other half, and Heaven has the ultimate recon tool. AND this avoids a paradox, as it is the same entity gathering and the information. One of the problems, though, is that it would leave half of said Kyriotate in the future... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:45:03 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Atheism again >hmm, do you think the Angel of Nice Cups of Tea fights pitched battles >against the Demon of Caffeine Addiction? Definetly, they probably meet at nice cozy places, the Angel orders her tea and the Demon orders his quintuple expresso. Then they sit there, drink and glare at eachother before leaving. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:58:15 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Gregory Gietzen wrote: > I was musing on the implications of this... If a Kyriotate can travel > faster-than-light, then Heaven has a tremendous edge in the War. Hm. I'd give the free forces teleportation, myself. Celestial Tunneling avoids all those nasty time paradoxes, and makes my head hurt less, while maintaining FTL capability. But YMMV, especially at FTL. };;;) Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:23:42 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (I am 99% sure that "Only Lilith (and _maybe_ Lucifer) create Lilim" is> firm canon, though. That only Lilith can make Lilim is canon, yes. That only Lilith is *capable* of making Lilim? I don't believe that's been established. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:25:43 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Infinity Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > However, in my own private "someday I wanna do this" notion involving > Yrth (the GURPS Fantasy world), I postulated that the alternate world > was "clean" -- no Princes, no Archangels, no Lucifer. No interventionist> God. No ethereal gods. If you do that, you'll be establishing canonically that God is *not* the omnipotent creator of the universe. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:24:34 -0600 From: Ryan Subject: IN> IN Wild Cards/My Email. Anyone who sent me personal email regarding the IN Wild Cards game in the past two days how did not get a reply, please resend your message. I had email issues.... Grim88 rbeall@fdldotnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:39:11 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Infinity "If you do that, you'll be establishing canonically that God is *not* the omnipotent creator of the universe." -David Not miserably. Doing that will only canonically establish that God is not the omnipotent creator of *all* universes. What implications that may have I cannot say. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:40:59 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> Infinity What? Everything our beloved Line Editor / List Admin / ArchPrincess does, runs, or wants to do in her own game is canon? I thought that the hat came off sometimes...Of course, with the forthcoming impudite (or is it a haballah? I cannot rememeber off hand) it might be good to wield that particular Power; "why not mommy?" "Because, it is not canon." Seriously though, I must be misunderstanding you, David. My first thought is that you are joking. But usually you emoticon your jokes. Because otherwise I am just trolling and in serious danger of getting Line Stomped (as all trolls should be, mind you, without exception). No offense intended, in other words. - --- David Edelstein wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > However, in my own private "someday I wanna do this" notion > involving > > Yrth No God. (More ) > If you do that, you'll be establishing canonically that God is > *not* the omnipotent creator of the universe. > -David ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com haiku prophecy see seventeen syllables into the future - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:53:42 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Infinity Trent wrote: > Not miserably. Doing that will only canonically establish that God is not> the omnipotent creator of *all* universes. > > What implications that may have I cannot say. It implies that "omnipotent" doesn't mean "omnipotent." If God is really GOD -- omnipotent, omniscient, the Supreme Being, Alpha and Omega -- then he has to be the God of all creation. Not just one universe out of many. Saying there is another universe where God does not hold sway puts limits on God's power and reach, and diminishes the whole concept of a Supreme Being....*especially* if you say that lesser beings are capable of accessing these alternate universes. If you don't want to play God as God, of course, then this may be a nifty-cool idea. But it shouldn't appear in canon, unless it's decided that God will be declared NOT to be the Creator that the angels think He is. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:16:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Infinity At 6:25 PM -0800 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> However, in my own private "someday I wanna do this" notion involving >> Yrth (the GURPS Fantasy world), I postulated that the alternate world >> was "clean" -- no Princes, no Archangels, no Lucifer. No interventionist >> God. No ethereal gods. > >If you do that, you'll be establishing canonically that God is *not* the >omnipotent creator of the universe. Well, in that game, maybe (that's a PRIVATE campaign idea, remember! I kin do what I want there) -- but my notion there was that it would have been a "clean experiment" world, which God was letting run "all human" without anyone meddling in it. Which doesn't say that God's not the opnipotent creator, but that he's not _intervening_. (I didn't say No God, anyway. I said "No interventionist God.") C'mon, read everything. The hat was off. "My Own Private "someday I wanna do this" notion involving Yrth" and "I postulated". Where does it say that's canon? The stuff about canon was "No Alternate Worlds Period." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:12:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 6:23 PM -0800 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> (I am 99% sure that "Only Lilith (and _maybe_ Lucifer) create Lilim" is> firm canon, though. > >That only Lilith can make Lilim is canon, yes. That only Lilith is >*capable* of making Lilim? I don't believe that's been established. I think it's been generally established in the initial writeup, and more firmly established by some things SJ's said to me in private. That's what the 1% error is for, though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:45:26 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Infinity At 6:25 PM -0800 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > However, in my own private "someday I wanna do this" notion involving > > Yrth (the GURPS Fantasy world), I postulated that the alternate world > > was "clean" -- no Princes, no Archangels, no Lucifer. No >interventionist> God. No ethereal gods. > >If you do that, you'll be establishing canonically that God is *not* the >omnipotent creator of the universe. Well, not "canonically," surely. If she is postulating a private, "someday she wants to do this" notion she's free to make any assumptions she wants like any other Gamemaster. If she's talking about writing this into GURPS Fantasy's next edition (or GURPS Yrth or whatever they do next), I think SJ would shoot it down before anyone else saw it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:26:22 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Ramblings: in IN Space, with CelStealthTech and B5 Vorlon-esque bio-ship vessels for Celestials [note: some human scan technicians are capable of piercing CelStealthTech, even if they can't convince the others on board their Humantech starcraft]: Balseraph: What is it, impsign? Imp: Celestial vessel warping in dead ahead, sir. B: Identify type immediately! I: It appears to be a single vessel fighter, Cherub class, sir, and it is deploying shields around the target. B: [cussing] I: Request permission to open fire, sir. B: Denied!! I: But... B: Didn't they teach you anything before sending you out on this training cruise? Recite: Data on Cherub fighter's shield generating ability! I: [reciting in monotone from memory] Cherub shields are the best in the universe. On a one-on-one basis, they are a match for any vessel below the Baron series, regardless of class. Oh! [as enlightenment dawns]. B: And this one has the markings of a Lithosian flagged vessel, ... I: ...so it isn't going to fire first! B: Put in a call to Squadron Command, now. I: Aye-aye sir! [short delay] Sir, I have a Knight at Belial Squadron Command on the number two viewer, sir. B: [from one knee] Sir, I have a single Cherub fighter deploying shields around the target. Request activation of Overwhelming Numbers Protocol, and assignment of two Calabim class vessels to support the mission by destruction of the enemy obstacle. I: Sir! B: [springing to feet and buckling into command seat] Oh Lucifer's Unholy Sh!@ ! Reverse course! Fleet speed! Bring warp generators online now! full shields to the rear! K: What is it?! B: There were Laurencian Malaks off the starboard bow! K: Starboard bow? B: Starboard bow, and they just fired.... {subspace static hiss} Actual Mechanics: Cherub of Stone Songmaster sings CorpShields at level 6, with bonuses for Choir and Songmaster singing L6 fortissimo. Bal uses CelTongues to ask for reinforcements, but Malaks deployed with Cherub, not bound by Stone's dissonance, arriving after Cherub, strike first and destroy fleeing Bal and Imp trainee, sending them into trauma at Belial's HQ [they were of Dark Fire]. or something like that, anyway. *g* Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:30 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Infinity David Barr wrote: > What? > Everything our beloved Line Editor / List Admin / ArchPrincess does, > runs, or wants to do in her own game is canon? Of course not. She was mentioning a fantasy supplement she'd *like* to see done someday (however unlikely it is to happen). I was just pointing out that such a supplement would have big CDaU problems. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:23:10 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Infinity At 6:53 PM -0800 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >If you don't want to play God as God, of course, then this may be a >nifty-cool idea. But it shouldn't appear in canon, unless it's decided >that God will be declared NOT to be the Creator that the angels think He >is. Well, that I agree with categorically. Actually, in our "Free For All" games (which are multiple universe), we've established multiple parallel universes. However, in none of those universes' IN structure was the nature of God known any better than in a standard CDaU IN campaign. However, when Michael met a Friend of Narnia, he recognized the Mark of Aslan and reacted as though "his" God was the Emperor from Beyond the Sea, strongly implying the same creator for all the Multiverse at the head of the line. What's been *more* interesting was the convergance of multiple IN universes run by different Gamemasters -- each with different brightness and contrast settings. The Angels and Demons who met in the Free For All nexus got very confused. ("Dominic does *what?* That's insane -- he's a force for justice!") but the Superiors apparently are aware of each other's existence and don't seem to have any difficulty whatsoever reconciling them. If Eli of one world meets Dominic of another, neither particularly reacts to the other. It would be like me meeting a business manager for a different school. We recognize each other's 'ranks,' perhaps talk a bit about conditions at our respective schools, but I never think I need to clear my budget through him and he doesn't ask me to fix his network. But that's how we coped with it. Beth seems to be coping with it differently, but I don't think she's specifically means for it to be Canon. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:27:54 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Infinity Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > C'mon, read everything. The hat was off. "My Own Private "someday I > wanna do this" notion involving Yrth" and "I postulated". Where > does it say that's canon? The stuff about canon was "No Alternate > Worlds Period." Sorry, when you said "someday I wanna do this," I thought it was another one of your many "dream supplements I'd do if In Nomine had the sales figures to support them." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:03:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Infinity At 7:27 PM -0800 1/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> C'mon, read everything. The hat was off. "My Own Private "someday I >> wanna do this" notion involving Yrth" and "I postulated". Where >> does it say that's canon? The stuff about canon was "No Alternate >> Worlds Period." > >Sorry, when you said "someday I wanna do this," I thought it was another >one of your many "dream supplements I'd do if In Nomine had the sales >figures to support them." Oiy. Nah, nah, I was referring to one of the long-ago INC adventure seeds that I did, which _did_ dump the PCs in Yrth. One of the theories there (the one I most favor, personally) was that this was a universe with transplanted humans, which celestials weren't supposed to be in because God (and _maybe_ Lucifer?) were conducting a wide-scale Eden Experiment. (We won't explain the magic.) (One of the other notions was that it was VapuTech Virtual Reality...) And I really did say that the canon was No Alternates At All, really I did. At 7:45 PM -0500 1/19/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: [...] >If she's talking >about writing this into GURPS Fantasy's next edition (or GURPS Yrth >or whatever they do next), I think SJ would shoot it down before >anyone else saw it. With a dino-laser! (Which is why I wouldn't say it save possibly in jest.) Though I have been occasinally tinkering with the idea of a Pyramid article that has In Nomine Yrth -- I even started on it a while back, though I don't think I got far. I believe I was postulating that as a case of "Celestials have always been around on Yrth, same as Earth," though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:28:49 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 18:44 -0500 1/19/00, Gregory Gietzen wrote: >I was musing on the implications of this... If a Kyriotate can travel >faster-than-light, then Heaven has a tremendous edge in the War. They don't actually *travel* that fast, just transfer information between their loci. I strongly suspect this would break relativity theory in some way, no matter what you did, and I don't even want to think about how to fix it.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:38:26 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Milliken" > I strongly suspect this would break relativity theory in some way, no > matter what you did, and I don't even want to think about how to fix it.... I've been musing on this too, because this just shatters causality all to Hell. The decision I had to come to was that the game presupposes that physics-as-currently-understood-on-Earth is either wrong or incomplete, in that God & angels & demons exist in the celestial realm, etc. As such, you play the game at the risk of having a coherent (again, as we know it) in-game system of physics. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:55:49 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> NPBEM Webpage Hello, all. About two years ago I placed an add on the list for player to join my In Nomine PBeM. I got a response quickly and since then we've been playing, still playing, in fact. Anyway, I've built a little web-site devoted to this In Nomine PBeM and it includes some records of our adventures. There is also an NPBEM eGroup and if anyone decides they are interested in joining, please e-mail me off the list or use the link on the website. http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/npbem.html For the spoilers, see below. If anyone discovers *any* problems with the website, please let me know. It's only taken two years to get the files up. Sheesh. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html Think, or be damned. - --Bryan Penton Spoilers below, no PCs please. The game's about an angel named Jezreel(PC) who's father has Fallen from grace. She's assigned to recruit a new soldier in the city of Vancouver, BC where her mother is currently working. In the process of recruiting Damien(PC), she gets involved with the investigation of Shije(NPC) who looks like he may be turning traitor. Soldekai (Gabriel's sanity) has sent Fury(PC) to reel in Shije (also a servitor of Fire), and possibly work with the local representatives of Judgement to find Shije, Kyrio of Jean in service to Fire, and bring him in for questioning, if not punishment. On top of everything, it looks as though Jezreel's father may be in the heart of a plot to rid the city of all its angels and cature the city for Hell. Care to discover the Truth with the rest of us? Come Lurk. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:09:47 -0600 From: "Matt Lee" Subject: IN> IRC Gaming Hi, haven't posted to this list in a very long time but I just picked up my In Nomine hard cover after quite awhile and decided it was time to play (also time to buy some new supplements). Due to a lack of local players, etc, though I've decided to go back to a medium I've had a LOT of success with in roleplaying in the past, IRC. I'm frankly surprised there isn't more IRC gaming going on in some systems, IMHO it beats PBEM by a long shot (as far as online gaming goes) but maybe thats just me, so, why I'm really posting, if there is anyone interested in playing and/or GMing, please e-mail me privately and if I get enough replies we'll start setting something up. The way these things usually go is once a week, on a set day/time when everyone can make it, for at least an hour or two or as long as people can stick around. I will GM if necessary but if there's anyone with more experience with IN you're welcome to GM as I have limited experience and the game might end up seeming somewhat different from what you're used to. Thanks for listening. Matt Lee matthewlee@students.wisc.edu <-- mail this one (and every once in awhile mattlee@execpc.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:08:20 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris > The sex-changing option may be > a special case, or it may take advantage of expressing latent other-gender > features inherent in the structure of the vessel or host. (I seem to recall > that in humans, at least, development of either set of sexual organs is > possible, as long as the correct set of hormones is present during > fetal development. So the DNA presumably codes both sets.) Yeah, Kinda, all humans (possibly most animals, I don't know) begin as female, with the female set of gonads etc..., then due to the presence of the Y chromosome (if it is a "strong" enough) and the hormones it produces the male "set" develops. So probably they are contained in the Dna of your average human. Azrael ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1501 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.