From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 20 16:37:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA31431 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:37:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA26366 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:32:50 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:32:50 -0600 Message-Id: <200001202232.QAA26366@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1503 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1503 In this digest: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Saminga [was: Re: IN> Movies] Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> IN: Infinity Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: Saminga [was: Re: IN> Movies] Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Those Krazy Kyrios! Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> What if In Nomine were true? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Krowe _ wrote: > The first is a Cherub of Purity who is one of the Tsayadim. I once wrote up > the Tsayadim as a Minor Choir, but have come to the conclusion that it makes > better sense for being Tsayadim to be a Distinction. My problem comes from > what this Distinction should grant. > I can fudge it by saying it gives this character an ability similar to a > Cherub of Judgement, but that's a quick fix. I'm looking for any more > detailed ideas you may have that would make sense for any Choir. Well, if I remember correctly, Tsayadim means "Hunters". Any Attunement should be based on that. How about giving them the ability to inflict a spiritual mark of some sort on a target (after a successful Will roll), which gives a +1 CD on any successful Resonance or Song use against that person by any bearer of the Tsayadim Attunement. Also, every Tsayadim will recognize the mark. (No individual may bear more than one mark, however.) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:58:34 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons I keep getting this odd feeling that I read somewhere (FotM?) that Lilith uses at least one of her own personal forces to make each Lilim, and that Human Force is what makes them what they are...or did I just make that up? - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still love me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF - ----- Original Message ----- From: David Edelstein To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:23 PM Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > (I am 99% sure that "Only Lilith (and _maybe_ Lucifer) create Lilim" is> firm canon, though. > > That only Lilith can make Lilim is canon, yes. That only Lilith is > *capable* of making Lilim? I don't believe that's been established. > > -David > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:08:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Infinity At 5:49 AM -0800 1/20/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>The question is if God is the omnipotent >>creator of the multiverse? Did He in fact create every instance of every >>universe? > > >Hee. If not, then the Purity crusade will have to work overtime. >Give all prospective worlds the 'purity' test, and if they fail, >destroy them as not being part of God's plan :) Now *there's* an ongoing Campaign for you! "Enter alternate/Ethereal Realm. Test for God's Grace with Jeannite YHWHscope. If failure, destroy universe." It'd be like Sliders, only with bombs. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:42:44 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still love me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF > normal demons (except for the Lilith logo burnt into there 3rd Force) and is this your bit, or did i completely miss some canon? > they can't be reproduced seperatly because there is copy protection on > there Forces (if you strip them to the 8 Forces they just start unraveling) this as well...I don't remember Lilim falling apart when they hit 8 Forces. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:28:14 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons > >That only Lilith can make Lilim is canon, yes. That only Lilith is > >*capable* of making Lilim? I don't believe that's been established. > > I think it's been generally established in the initial writeup, and > more firmly established by some things SJ's said to me in private. > > That's what the 1% error is for, though. Can Lucifer make Lilim? If a Lilim became a Demon Princess, would she be able to make Lilim? If two Lilim decide to create an offspring, would it be a Lilim? Would it start off as Bright? If a Bright Lilim and an angel create an offspring, would it start off as Bright? Is it necessarily acceptable, if any of the last few are true, to grant little demons powers that Lucifer can't duplicate? > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:13:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming At 6:50 AM -0800 1/20/00, Erich Arendall wrote: > >Hmmm... What kind of choir were the Tsayadim to begin with? Got a >write up available anywhere? Also, which Archangel grants the >distinction? All Choirs. They were the Angels of Purity. I believe the name came after Uriel's recall. Hm. No Angel of Purity *ever* Fell, as I recall -- with some question if some jumped. I wonder if that means there are some un-cast-out Grigori among the Tsaydim.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:11:59 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Galactica, and IN Space Thoughts At 9:40 AM -0500 1/20/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote (concerning relativistic Kyrios acting as >celestial sub-space radio, to send information faster than light >or backward in time): > > > I strongly suspect this would break relativity theory in some way, no > > matter what you did, and I don't even want to think about how to fix > > it.... > >No worse that it's already been broken by quantum mechanics. It's >been fairly well established, now, that "quantum entangled" pairs >of particles can influence each other instantaneously. He's right on this. There's a pretty good theory floating around about means of using quantum spin as binary circuit pairs for instantaneous communications. (Which implies lots of relays the further out you get, since any one "Quantum Radio" can only listen to another "Quantum Radio." But with it, the Internet can be extended out pretty far. Say, to Mars, with less lag than I get going from New Hampshire to Stanford....) Between that, various wormhole theories and the warp drive theory, we've got fertile ground for Hard SF Space Opera. I'd think adding in Kyriotates wouldn't be untoward. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:20:02 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming At 8:48 AM -0800 1/20/00, David Edelstein wrote: > You could spare yourself a headache as a GM and simply >say that since Magog was not a Superior, and he Fell about 3000 years >ago, his Attunements have long since "expired." Hm... so if a Rite for a Fallen Word-Bound gives back a celestial "This Line is No Longer In Service" message, Attunements are more like registered Domain names? After a much longer period of time and "non-payment" (along with evolution of perspective about the Word) the Attunements simply stop responding? In this case, what about cases of Superiors and their Words? Will there come a point where Knowledge's Attunements will stop working? If another Angel were given the Word of Knowledge, would that accelerate the process? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:21:20 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome" Subject: Saminga [was: Re: IN> Movies] maybe your Saminga...I turn the contrast and brightness waaaay down. my Saminga, much to the chagrin of the players, two of whom serve him, isn't really an idiot. sure, he acts like it, and does some stupid things...but it's all a cover. he's realized just how powerful his Word really is...Lust can go away, the War can end, the Media can fade...but Death is always there. Everything eventually dies, including a good number of celestials...so he acts stupid and slowly gathers his power, planning his major coup...I've got a whole lot more if any one wants to hear it, but just a warning, it's extremely Heretical. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still love me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 9:58 AM Subject: Re: IN> Movies > In a message dated 1/19/00 12:07:09 PM Central Standard Time, > esp.horsepie@btinternet.com writes: > > << chris walken's gabriel - saminga >> > > Oh, that is so wrong! Saminga is an over the top Overlord style villain! The > kind who goes Mwahahahahahaha! for no obvious reason. Don't get me wrong, I > love the big, dumb jerk. > Chris Walken is just COOL. He's quiet and sinister, and very clever. Not > Saminga at all. > > Reverend Brian A. Rogers > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:52:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Whistling in the Dark wrote: > I wonder if that means there are some un-cast-out Grigori among the > Tsaydim.... I doubt it very much. The Tsayadim formed only a few centuries ago, around 600-something AD. The Grigori were cast out in remote antiquity. The official IN timeline doesn't give a date for Noah's Flood, but according to the apochryphal book of Enoch, the Grigori were cast out about the time that happened. If Uriel had any Grigori servitors, he'd have cast them out at that time, in all probability. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:56:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Ben Glickler wrote: > Can Lucifer make Lilim? Canon is very quiet about what Lucifer can and can't do, almost as quiet as about God. > If a Lilim became a Demon Princess, would she be able to make Lilim? Good question. > If two Lilim decide to create an offspring, would it be > a Lilim? Would it start off as Bright? If a Bright Lilim and an > angel create an offspring, would it start off as Bright? Celestials can't create new celestials without the help of a Superior. If the helping Superior is Lilith, then sure, she can make a Lilim; in fact, she can't make anything else. If it's someone else, then no. > Is it necessarily acceptable, if any of the last few are true, to > grant little demons powers that Lucifer can't duplicate? As I said above, canon won't say much about what Lucifer can or can't do. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:01:23 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity At 11:54 -0500 1/20/00, Doctor TOC wrote: >Modesty seems to have prevented Earl from mentioning it's also the >approach used in his rather spiffy "Time Riders" supplement for Space >Master, which I very highly recommend for anyone even *thinking* of >roleplaying time travel in any genre. Though it's been out of print for >a while, you can still find it for a reasonable price if you look. It >pops up regularly on Ebay too. :-) Another good book for anyone thinking of time travel or alternate worlds is SJGames' GURPS Time Travel. It covers many approaches to the genre of time travel and parallel worlds. According to Warehouse23, it's still available. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:58:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Dennis Groome wrote: > I keep getting this odd feeling that I read somewhere (FotM?) that > Lilith uses at least one of her own personal forces to make each > Lilim, and that Human Force is what makes them what they are...or did > I just make that up? I remember reading the same thing somewhere, so no, you didn't make it up. I recall the text talking about her taking a Force into herself for a while, until it was imbued with her nature, then using it as the nucleus of the new Lilim. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:04:03 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 11:58 -0500 1/20/00, Dennis Groome wrote: >I keep getting this odd feeling that I read somewhere (FotM?) that Lilith >uses at least one of her own personal forces to make each Lilim, and that >Human Force is what makes them what they are...or did I just make that up? It's certainly how Elizabeth explains things, and I think it's made it into canon somewhere. She's certainly discussed it here on the list. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:04:46 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: Saminga [was: Re: IN> Movies] Dennis Groome wrote: > > maybe your Saminga...I turn the contrast and brightness waaaay down. > I've got a whole lot more if any one wants to hear it, but just > a warning, it's extremely Heretical. Go for it. Heresy is my middle name (actually, it isn't, but it'd be cool if it was. Bloody unimaginative parents...). Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:26:39 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris At 12:32 -0500 1/20/00, Tim Groth wrote: >If a celestial turned from a male vessel to a female vessel and managed to >get themselves pregnant with the song of fertility would they be stuck as a >woman. It says that they can't abandon the vessel until the child is born, >and swapping its gender is close to abandoning the vessel (at least in >terms of the effects it has on the child within it). I would agree -- Song of Form sex-changes would probably be a bad idea for a pregnant vessel. > And I just >thought of a new question, does the celestial song of form merely mold the >flesh like clay or do the genes match. For instance if a black man was >made into an asian man by a celestial with it (I don't know why they would >do this, they just decided to) would any children the transformed man >fathered in the time of change inherit genes appropriate to the natural >appearance or the transformed appearance. I suspect it could be either. Other related questions include things like matching the fingerprints and retinaprints of someone else using this Song. In my game, I'd probably rule that ordinary use of this Song is basically cosmetic unless there's a template handy to copy the genuine Symphonic strains from. In some cases, the result might indeed include genetic changes, if that were the easiest way for the Song to work (i.e., picking up some fairly strong "racial genotype" theme from the Symphony and applying it). >Finally I've been under the impression that any of the ornamental numinous >corpus could be done with the celestial song of form, and anything doable >with song of form has an ornamental numinous corpus. I don't think there's a hard & fast rule to that effect, but it seems reasonable. Note also, that Soldiers can get NC Songs easily, while Cel. Form is usually off-limits to them. So there's another big advantage to NC Songs, at least to humans. >That reminds me, it says that you can build nc into vessels (somewhere in >the GMG) and in FotM Jordi is shown to be able to reconstruct the human >body as if it was a vessel. I can see Jordi inflicting Lycanthropy on >mortals, and doing other things to that effect. He probably could (he is the one who discovered how to *make* vessels, too, BTW). I doubt he'd do it very much though -- if he wants to teach a human a lesson by making him into a beast, I doubt he'd do it half-way, and let the victim keep a human form at all. In my own game, there's the Angel of Sculpting (a Malakite of Creation); one of the Word powers she has is the ability to permanently resculpt flesh (her own vessel, or the bodies of others if she's touching them). She'd have to do fairly detailed anatomical studies to actually figure out how to change a human into the working semblance of another species, though. She can mimic some of the effects of Cel. Form and NC, though not all, and it takes her a lot more work. (Yes, this is rather powerful -- she's a high-Force angel with some potential to become a minor Superior someday, due to having a "stealth power" Word.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:29:04 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming At 13:13 -0500 1/20/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Hm. No Angel of Purity *ever* Fell, as I recall -- with some >question if some jumped. I wonder if that means there are some >un-cast-out Grigori among the Tsaydim.... I would expect Uriel would have cast them out when they were exiled. After all, the Council decided the whole Choir was tainted, and I can't see Uriel hanging on to any of them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:33:53 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming At 13:20 -0500 1/20/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 8:48 AM -0800 1/20/00, David Edelstein wrote: >> You could spare yourself a headache as a GM and simply >>say that since Magog was not a Superior, and he Fell about 3000 years >>ago, his Attunements have long since "expired." > >Hm... so if a Rite for a Fallen Word-Bound gives back a celestial >"This Line is No Longer In Service" message, Attunements are more >like registered Domain names? After a much longer period of time and >"non-payment" (along with evolution of perspective about the Word) >the Attunements simply stop responding? I would say the Word has to have weakened significantly in the interim, for this to happen. Any Archangel could also have removed such attunements, if they were seen as dangerous in some way. (And I'd expect that the attunements of a Fallen Word-bound would be looked at closely, in case they might provide a means for the demon to take his former Servitors down with him.) >In this case, what about cases of Superiors and their Words? Will >there come a point where Knowledge's Attunements will stop working? >If another Angel were given the Word of Knowledge, would that >accelerate the process? I believe Superior Words are generally so strong in the Symphony, that even without celestial "pushing", they'd be strong enough to continue supporting old attunements. I vaguely recall reading some stuff in the GMG about this. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:54:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Walter Milliken wrote: > I believe Superior Words are generally so strong in the Symphony, that > even without celestial "pushing", they'd be strong enough to continue > supporting old attunements. I vaguely recall reading some stuff in > the GMG about this. Yes, the GMG gives the example of the Word of Knowledge. Its holder, Raphael, is dead, but the Word is in great shape, well able to support the attunements of any orphaned servitors of Knowledge. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:08:41 -0800 (PST) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> Infinity From: David Edelstein >Erich Arendall wrote: >> I'll concede that in In Nomine canon God is the creator of the universe (and >> we'll make him omnipotent, too). >> The question is if God is the omnipotent> creator of the multiverse? >Look up the meaning of "omnipotent." Don't have my dictionary with me, but it basically just means "all powerful," right? I don't think the concepts are mutually exclusive. Just because there's stuff he didn't create doesn't mean he couldn't have created it. You just need multiple omnipotent beings. They divide up the multiverse (or what will become the multiverse) into separate universes, and each can do whatever he/she wants to his/her universe. (Now that I think about it, that sounds disturbingly like the standard "roommates draw a chalk line to divide the apartment in half" sitcom schtick.) Of course, that would mean that any alternate universes would probably be very different. Physics may differ wildly. Even if they don't, there would almost certainly be few similarities between the universes. More like alternate dimensions than parallel timelines. Which brings to mind the entertaining idea of an angel (particularly a Seraph) completely losing all connection to the Symphony. Not like falling, and being consumed by a personal 'Symphony', but more like being struck suddenly deaf. Hmmm.... Wade (this was supposed to be a quick reply...) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:20:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Infinity Wade Trupke wrote: > You just need multiple omnipotent beings. There are severe problems with more than one omnipotence. What if they disagree? > Which brings to mind the entertaining idea of an > angel (particularly a Seraph) completely losing > all connection to the Symphony. Not like falling, > and being consumed by a personal 'Symphony', but > more like being struck suddenly deaf. Hmmm.... Sounds like Limbo. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:57:55 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Tim Groth wrote: > And I just> thought of a new question, does the celestial song of form merely mold the > flesh like clay or do the genes match. GM's call. We've generally avoided getting too scientifically detailed in IN. Songs are celestial miracles, not physics experiments, so they should do whatever the GM feels is appropriate. They don't need to comform to the laws of science. > Finally I've been under the impression that any of the ornamental numinous > corpus could be done with the celestial song of form, and anything doable > with song of form has an ornamental numinous corpus. Not necessarily. I'd make weird changes like a fur covering or antlers cost a lot of Essence, since you're alterning the vessel so much from its natural form. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:02:15 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Whistling in the Dark wrote: > In this case, what about cases of Superiors and their Words? Will > there come a point where Knowledge's Attunements will stop working? Possibly. It depends on how the Word itself is doing. As long as the Word of Knowledge is not decaying, attunements linked to it should still work. > If another Angel were given the Word of Knowledge, would that > accelerate the process? Perhaps, or it might, conversely, slow the process. Hard to say what would happen if you have a current Word-holder at the same time as celestials walking around with the attunements of the previous holder. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Walter Milliken wrote: > >Hm. No Angel of Purity *ever* Fell, as I recall -- with some > >question if some jumped. I wonder if that means there are some > >un-cast-out Grigori among the Tsaydim.... > > I would expect Uriel would have cast them out when they were exiled. > After all, the Council decided the whole Choir was tainted, and I can't > see Uriel hanging on to any of them. On the other hand, could have decided to keep. After all, if he detects no impurities in them and his Servitors detect no impurities in them, who are the Seraphim council to tell him that they *are* impure regardless? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:18:40 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Richard Gant wrote: > On the other hand, could have decided to keep. After all, if he detects> no impurities in them and his Servitors detect no impurities in them, who> are the Seraphim council to tell him that they *are* impure regardless? If the whole Choir was judged impure by the Seraphim Council, I think Uriel would have gone along with a move to purify Heaven itself. You have to consider that the entire Choir was exiled. It's not likely that every single Grigori commited the crimes for which they were punished; more likely a few were guilty, and the rest were punished for not stopping their comrades, and because Dominic wanted to make a VERY strong statement about such behavior. So even if an individual Grigori might not have registered as "impure" (i.e., dissonant) to Uriel's senses, they were all still tainted by association. No, it's not fair, by our modern standards, but Uriel served the God who punishes for "sins of the fathers" -- if it's a thorough and merciless cleansing, Uriel is going to be behind it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:15:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Richard Gant wrote: > On the other hand, could have decided to keep. After all, if he > detects no impurities in them and his Servitors detect no impurities > in them, who are the Seraphim council to tell him that they *are* > impure regardless? The main IN rulebook says next to nothing about the Grigori, but GURPS In Nomine says, in the playtest files, that the Grigori were "tried and found guilty, one and all" for "the sin of forgetting their duties." Doesn't sound to me like Uriel would keep them. According to the Book of Enoch, there were 200 Grigori, led by one Semyaza, who got all of them to make a mutual pledge to take up human lives and wives together. (In the campaign I play in, the children of Grigori fathers are the nephalim, but are construed as demi-gods, not monsters. The children of Grigori *mothers* founded the race of djinn -- as in the genies of the Arabian Nights, not the demonic band.) (In the book "Many Waters," by Madeline L'Engle, author of "A Wrinkle in Time," the wife of Noah's son Japheth is a nephil, the only one to survive the Flood, but the mother of a third of the human race.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:42:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > > On the other hand, could have decided to keep. After all, if he > > detects no impurities in them and his Servitors detect no impurities > > in them, who are the Seraphim council to tell him that they *are* > > impure regardless? > > If the whole Choir was judged impure by the Seraphim Council, I think > Uriel would have gone along with a move to purify Heaven itself. Obviously, I'm dealing with hypotheticals here. The way I see it, Uriel *couldn't* stood for such a thing. The decision to punish all the Grigori for the actions of the majority would have grated against his Word (at least, the way I interpret his Word). I think he'd have been much more likely to demand a purification of the Seraphim Council for such an act. Of course, if the entire Choir *was* guilty, that's an entirely different matter. Uriel would be one of the first to show them the door... > No, it's not fair, by our modern standards, but Uriel served the God who > punishes for "sins of the fathers" -- if it's a thorough and merciless > cleansing, Uriel is going to be behind it. Well, yes, God did say he punishes for the "sins of the fathers". But in the same verse he also says he blesses those that love and serve him (or words to that effect - I don't have a Bible on me). Sure Uriel can do (and has done) the thorough and merciless cleansing - but he can also take pride in forgiving those who honestly deserve forgiveness, and can delight in those that were never impure in the first place. For that matter, how could Dominic have cast out all the Grigori if not all of them were guilty? Surely he'd get hammered with dissonance for that? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > On the other hand, could have decided to keep. After all, if he > > detects no impurities in them and his Servitors detect no impurities > > in them, who are the Seraphim council to tell him that they *are* > > impure regardless? > > The main IN rulebook says next to nothing about the Grigori, but > GURPS In Nomine says, in the playtest files, that the Grigori were > "tried and found guilty, one and all" for "the sin of forgetting > their duties." Doesn't sound to me like Uriel would keep them. Okay. I was mostly arguing the possibility of an innocent Grigori; Uriel would have no reason to reject one of them. (Purely hypothetical, in other words.) > According to the Book of Enoch, there were 200 Grigori, led by one > Semyaza, who got all of them to make a mutual pledge to take up > human lives and wives together. I don't have any primary sources for this, but I know that _A Dictionary of Angels_ mentions that some sources divide the Grigori into the fallen Watchers (who are bound into Hell) and the righteous Watchers (who did not take part in the sins of the fallen Watchers, and are still in Heaven). Perhaps these "righteous Watchers" (if they were to exist in a campaign) could have been called to the higher Heavens to assist the Humans who go there. > (In the campaign I play in, the children of Grigori fathers are > the nephalim, but are construed as demi-gods, not monsters. > The children of Grigori *mothers* founded the race of djinn -- > as in the genies of the Arabian Nights, not the demonic band.) Interesting. Similar to some of my ideas. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:55:00 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 1:56 PM -0500 1/20/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Ben Glickler wrote: > > > Can Lucifer make Lilim? > >Canon is very quiet about what Lucifer can and can't do, almost as >quiet as about God. I assume we assume God can make a Lilim if he chooses. > > If a Lilim became a Demon Princess, would she be able to make Lilim? > >Good question. IMC, there is a Demon Princess Lilim. (The Demon Princess of Investment, specifically.) She *cannot* make Lilim. YMMV. > > If two Lilim decide to create an offspring, would it be > > a Lilim? Would it start off as Bright? If a Bright Lilim and an > > angel create an offspring, would it start off as Bright? > >Celestials can't create new celestials without the help of a Superior. >If the helping Superior is Lilith, then sure, she can make a Lilim; >in fact, she can't make anything else. If it's someone else, then no. This was answered somewhere, I think. Possibly by Beth or David or the like the last time this came up on here, or it may be in the IPG, which I don't have a second copy of in my office. Yet. As I recall, if a Lilim and another band's demon (or angel, I assume) decide to procreate a celestial, the new one will be the other band, automatically. If a Lilim and a Lilim procreate, to my knowledge the new celestial will be a 7 (or however many they use) Force Imp or Gremlin, which then will fledge almost immediately, as a Band other than Lilim. Again -- I don't recall if this is Canon or not, but it seemed the answer that was rendered last time. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:37:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Those Krazy Kyrios! At 5:45 AM -0800 1/20/00, Erich Arendall wrote: >Say Kyriotate A were to take a 3 Force person over (Kyrio A also has a 1 >Force kitty and a 4 Force human elsewhere). Then, Kyriotate B comes along >and (after a contest of will between A & B) takes the same person over. The >question is, what happens to A's 3 Forces? Do they pop up into the Marches >(which is what I did), are they shoved outside of the body to stare stupidly >at it in Celestial form, or are those Forces right back with the others? Right back with the others. The Kyrio A _might_ choose to manifest its 3 Forces right then and there, but I'd require a Will roll to shove them "out" rather than simply put them back in "unused potentiality" with the rest of its Forces. I _think_ this is covered in the APG, in the Kyriotates section. (Which, aside from the evil CD tables and the errata, is one of the best sections of the APG, come to think of it...) I wouldn't shove the Kyrio into the Marches at all, sorry. They aren't linked into the host the way the original occupant was, so if they get shoved out, they can get shoved _out_, not just aside. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:37:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming At 8:48 AM -0800 1/20/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Uriel's Outcast followers. My writeup at >http://amadan.org/Innomine/Uriel.htm is not canon -- yet -- but I >believe there is a strong likelihood that it will be the core of >whatever canon is eventually established. Quite likely, far as I know at this time. Though you'll have to lowercase "dissonance"... O;> >Rites stop working if the celestial who gave them has been destroyed, >Fallen, or redeemed, [...] >it's likely that the Angel of Fortitude was capable of >bestowing a Servitor Attunement or two (but _not_ Choir Attunements). [And they might not work by now anyway.] What he said. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:33:19 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Richard Gant wrote: > Obviously, I'm dealing with hypotheticals here. The way I see it, Uriel > *couldn't* stood for such a thing. The decision to punish all the Grigori > for the actions of the majority would have grated against his Word (at > least, the way I interpret his Word). I think he'd have been much more > likely to demand a purification of the Seraphim Council for such an act. You're seeing Uriel as being fair, as opposed to just. > Well, yes, God did say he punishes for the "sins of the fathers". But in > the same verse he also says he blesses those that love and serve him (or > words to that effect - I don't have a Bible on me). Which is a bit contradictory, but that's another discussion. The point is, Uriel would have no problem cleansing anyone even associated with the guilty -- even if they are personally innocent. > For that matter, how could Dominic have cast out all the Grigori if not > all of them were guilty? Surely he'd get hammered with dissonance for > that? Not if his judgment was righteous. Biblical righteousness doesn't have to be fair. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:25:48 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >> normal demons (except for the Lilith logo burnt into there 3rd Force) and > >is this your bit, or did i completely miss some canon? > >> they can't be reproduced seperatly because there is copy protection on >> there Forces (if you strip them to the 8 Forces they just start >unraveling) > > >this as well...I don't remember Lilim falling apart when they hit 8 Forces. This is my bit, it was in the IMC section of the post. Its the way I explain why no Prince has Lilim, or at least why none has any idea how there constructed because Vapula would definetly try disecting them. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:37:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What if In Nomine were true? At 9:50 AM -0500 1/20/00, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >>Benjamin Acosta wrote: >>>[What if] the content of the various In Nomine books were the actual >>> TRUTH? > >I suppose I'd have to roll up my sleeves and get back to work. >(P.S. Flavor note: Do you suppose that Nybbasketeers refer to other Princes >as 'DPs' the way that corporate folks refer to vice presidents as 'VPs'?) Man, I wish that'd been brought up during the Nybbas playtest... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1503 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.