From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 21 12:42:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23195 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:42:16 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA23993 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:57:34 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:57:34 -0600 Message-Id: <200001211757.LAA23993@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1504 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1504 In this digest: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Those Krazy Kyrios! Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori IN> Grigori Re: IN> Infinity Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Re: IN> Those Krazy Kyrios! Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Lilim are Demons IN> God's Message to Women (fwd) Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> What if In Nomine were true? IN> Social Munchkins Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Social Munchkins IN> The same Word Re: IN> Social Munchkins IN> Social Munchkins Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> What if In Nomine were true? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:39:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > Richard Gant wrote: > > For that matter, how could Dominic have cast out all the Grigori if not > > all of them were guilty? Surely he'd get hammered with dissonance for > > that? > > Not if his judgment was righteous. Biblical righteousness doesn't have > to be fair. Also, Superiors aren't fully beholden to their own dissonance conditions. Richard is here, I think, referring to the fact that Dominicans get hammered with dissonance for smiting the innocent, or smiting the guilty too hard. They have to "get it right the first time." One could also make a case that Dominic has been forced through Word-reflection to become more fair as humanity's idea of judgement became more fair. But that affects his Servitors more than him... Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:44:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris At 10:32 AM -0700 1/20/00, Tim Groth wrote: >causes development of male plumbing from the female version. And I just >thought of a new question, does the celestial song of form merely mold the >flesh like clay or do the genes match. If you forced me to make a canon answer on this it would be... "This is getting far too nitty-gritty for what IN is supposed to cover. My STRONG inclination is to say, 'No. No genetic changes. It's only cosmetic. No gametes are produced.'" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:00:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 10:58 AM -0600 1/20/00, Dennis Groome wrote: >I keep getting this odd feeling that I read somewhere (FotM?) that Lilith >uses at least one of her own personal forces to make each Lilim, and that >Human Force is what makes them what they are...or did I just make that up? It's in FotM, yup. Not clear whether it's a "Human Force" or just a "Lilith Force." Yes, there may be a difference. Or there may not. Muwhahaah! (Yes, I'm weird right now.) This also wound up being a plotpoint in Final Trumpet, for better or worse. (Not one you can blame me for, though! I didn't put it there.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:06:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 11:28 AM -0700 1/20/00, Ben Glickler wrote: >> >That only Lilith can make Lilim is canon, yes. That only Lilith is >> >*capable* of making Lilim? I don't believe that's been established. >> >> I think it's been generally established in the initial writeup, and >> more firmly established by some things SJ's said to me in private. >> That's what the 1% error is for, though. > >Can Lucifer make Lilim? CDaU. >If a Lilim became a Demon Princess, would she be able to make Lilim? No. (Technically undecided, but I know what answer I'd be pushing. She spays 'em when she makes 'em. Or maybe it _does_ require a human Force.) >If two Lilim decide to create an offspring, would it be >a Lilim? Only if Lilith were the one meshing the Forces together and putting in the Special Ingredient. (This is in FotM, you know...) >Would it start off as Bright? No. Not even if both the other Lilim were Bright -- Lilith'd be making it. (Might be a very pale green, though. O;> ) >If a Bright Lilim and an angel >create an offspring, would it start off as Bright? It wouldn't be a Lilim, but it would be an angel or reliever. >Is it necessarily acceptable, if any of the last few are true, to >grant little demons powers that Lucifer can't duplicate? Up to the GM. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:58:09 PST From: "Erich Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Those Krazy Kyrios! >From: Elizabeth McCoy >I _think_ this is covered in the APG, in the Kyriotates section. (Which, >aside from the evil CD tables and the errata, is one of the best sections >of the APG, come to think of it...) > Let me get this straight. I actually have to read those books? I can't just have them on my shelves to impress all my gaming friends? Yep, it's in the APG... Still, it gets hard to remember all those books on the fly - and I do so hate looking something up mid-game. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Impudite of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, servitor of Kronos - ------------------------- Foaming at the Mouth http://rpg.net/news+reviews/sprite.html Touched by an Impudite http://www.insync.net/~sprite/ - ---------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:02:01 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >This also wound up being a plotpoint in Final Trumpet, for better or >worse. (Not one you can blame me for, though! I didn't put it there.) ? Where? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:42:02 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori > Obviously, I'm dealing with hypotheticals here. The way I see it, Uriel > *couldn't* stood for such a thing. The decision to punish all the Grigori > for the actions of the majority would have grated against his Word (at > least, the way I interpret his Word). I think he'd have been much more > likely to demand a purification of the Seraphim Council for such an act. > > Of course, if the entire Choir *was* guilty, that's an entirely different > matter. Uriel would be one of the first to show them the door... I'm not entirely sure if we can reconcile your image of Uriel (selective cleansing) with the image put forth by the In Nomine series of books (unselective cleansing). Your concept of Uriel, for example, would never have launched the purity crusade against innocent creatures. In Nomine's concept of Uriel differs slightly on that topic. > Richard Gant Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:16:37 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Grigori Just out of curiousity, is there any plan to do anything with these lads in canon? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:25:45 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Infinity WARNING: Spoilers for Mary Gentle's _Rats and Gargoyles_ ahead. Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Wade Trupke wrote: > >> You just need multiple omnipotent beings. > >There are severe problems with more than one omnipotence. >What if they disagree? Mary Gentle's _Rats and Gargoyles_ is (among many other things) about exactly that. The 36 gods of the setting are all omniscient and omnipotent. The trouble is, one of them is trying to kill the others (or perhaps commit suicide, I'm not sure), and there was a discussion by the protagonists about just how much collusion this required to be possible. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:28:06 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Whistling in the Dark wrote: [snip] > Hm. No Angel of Purity *ever* Fell, as I recall -- with > some question if some jumped. I wonder if that means there > are some un-cast-out Grigori among the Tsaydim.... For that matter, going off on a tangent here, when all the Grigori were cast out, what about those of them (there must have been some) that were in Trauma at the time? *Can* you cast a Traumatised angel out of Heaven, bearing in mind that they have no vessel at that point? Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Came whiffling through the tulgey wood, And burbled as it came ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:39:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Those Krazy Kyrios! At 2:58 PM -0800 1/20/00, Erich Arendall wrote: >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >>I _think_ this is covered in the APG, in the Kyriotates section. (Which, >>aside from the evil CD tables and the errata, is one of the best sections >>of the APG, come to think of it...) > >Let me get this straight. I actually have to read those books? Um, well, _I_ did. Before I became LE, even... >I can't >just have them on my shelves to impress all my gaming friends? Well, I guess you can, but I'll still refer you to them when you ask questions... >Yep, it's in the APG... Still, it gets hard to remember all those books on >the fly - and I do so hate looking something up mid-game. Sleep with the relevant sections under your pillow? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:40:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 6:02 PM -0400 1/20/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >>This also wound up being a plotpoint in Final Trumpet, for better or >>worse. (Not one you can blame me for, though! I didn't put it there.) > >? Where? pp. 110-111. Not to give spoilers. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:42:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Grigori At 6:16 PM -0400 1/20/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Just out of curiousity, is there any plan to do anything with these lads in >canon? Yes. Oh, you want more details? Fnord. Oh, all right, just a few. Well, one major one. Q: Why is it taking so long? A: We want to do it _right._ (No, I don't think the first Cycle was done _right._) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:41:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Ben Glickler wrote: > > Of course, if the entire Choir *was* guilty, that's an entirely different > > matter. Uriel would be one of the first to show them the door... > > I'm not entirely sure if we can reconcile your image of Uriel (selective > cleansing) with the image put forth by the In Nomine series of books > (unselective cleansing). Your concept of Uriel, for example, would never > have launched the purity crusade against innocent creatures. In Nomine's > concept of Uriel differs slightly on that topic. I hear an old, old thread awakening here... :) My concept of Uriel most certainly *would* have launched the Purity Crusade, but that's because of my concept of the creatures of myth as well. They are creations of human imagination, ans as such are subordinate to mankind. When they put themselves above humanity (by posing as gods or by swearing allegiance to those who did), they stepped outside their appointed bounds. They defiled themselves, and refused to change. So they were cleansed. Even in canon, several types of Ethereal spirit were allowed to live, provided that they never returned. The spirits of the Dreamtime for instance. (They seem to be breaking that oath now that Uriel has been gone for so long, but still...) No *innocents* were slain, at least not from a pure/impure perspective. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:11:04 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >>>This also wound up being a plotpoint in Final Trumpet, for better or >>>worse. (Not one you can blame me for, though! I didn't put it there.) >> >>? Where? > >pp. 110-111. Not to give spoilers. O;> Ohhh right. 'scuse me. Hm, I dunno why you'd want to disclaim responsibility. _Final Trumpet_ had some flat notes, but on the whole I thought it was pretty well done. Good Superior writeups, lots of flexibility in the actual adventure. Even that particular plot point flowed reasonably (just fetching the cat shouldn't be enough). And darnit, doesn't everyone want to play Armageddon? I think the whole _idea_ of the Rev cycle was sort of flawed. The execution varied from eh to quite good, though. - -- Incidentally, a PC IMC is about to find out just how nasty Lilim can be. He's going to get offered a *great* deal... a bunch of really useful information for a minor Geas. What he doesn't know is that the Lil is going to use that geas to trap another angel into either Falling or being destroyed. Fun abounds... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 2000 01:13:30 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> God's Message to Women (fwd) imagine a voice from the Heavens speaking this to a new Soldier.... -=|horsefly|=- >---forwarded message--- >God's Message to Women: > >When I created the heavens and the earth, I spoke them into being. When I >created man, I formed him and breathed life into his nostrils. But you, >woman, I fashioned after I breathed the breath of life into man because >your >nostrils are too delicate. I allowed a deep sleep to come over him so I >could patiently and perfectly fashion you. Man was put to sleep so that >he >could not interfere with the creativity. From one bone I fashioned you. I >chose the bone that protects man's life. I chose the rib, which protects >his >heart and lungs and supports him, as you are meant to do. Around this one >bone I shaped you. I modeled you. I created you perfectly and >beautifully. > >Your characteristics are as the rib, strong yet delicate and fragile. You >provide protection for the most delicate organ in man, his heart. His >heart >is the center of his being; his lungs hold the breath of life. The rib >cage >will allow itself to be broken before it will allow damage to the heart. > >Support man as the rib cage supports the body. You were not taken from >his >feet, to be under him, nor were you taken from his head, to be above him. >You were taken from his side, to stand beside him and be held close to >his >side. > >You are my perfect angel. You are my beautiful little girl. You have >grown >to be a splendid woman of excellence, and my eyes fill when I see the >virtues in your heart. Your eyes -- don't change them. Your lips -- how >lovely when they part in prayer. Your nose, so perfect in form, your >hands >so gentle to touch. I've caressed your face in your deepest sleep; I've >held >your heart close to mine. > >Of all that lives and breathes, you are the most like me. Adam walked >with >me in the cool of the day and yet he was lonely. He could not see me or >touch me. He could only feel me. So everything I wanted Adam to share and >experience with me, I fashioned in you: my holiness, my strength, my >purity, >my love, my protection and support. You are special because you are the >extension of me. > >Man represents my image -- woman, my emotions. > >Together, you represent the totality of God. So man -- treat woman well. >Love her, respect her, for she is fragile. In hurting her, you hurt me. >What >you do to her, you do to me. In crushing her, you only damage your own >heart, the heart of your Father, and the heart of her Father. Woman, >support >man. In humility, show him the power of emotion I have given you. In >gentle >quietness show your strength. In love, show him that you are the rib that >protects his inner self. > > >(Submitted by Nancy Davis) ________________________________________________________________ For the best in comics, collectibles, original art and shopping, visit the Dark Horse Network @ . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:20:27 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> Grigori Hmmm.... This implies that the grigori will be dealt with over the course of a cycle. By extension (*wild speculation by someone who has less than no authority (ie, even if it is canon when I say it, canon changes to make me wrong....)) that the Grigori will be the focus of the next cycle. Of course, all you are really saying is that you want to make sure that you do it right. Gee, having read all the books Edited under your watch eye, can i find a thimble to contain my surprise? Our Beloved LE has high standards. - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 6:16 PM -0400 1/20/00, Douglas Muir wrote: > >Just out of curiousity, is there any plan to do anything with > these lads in > >canon? > Yes. > Oh, you want more details? > Fnord. > > Oh, all right, just a few. Well, one major one. > > > Q: Why is it taking so long? > > A: We want to do it _right._ > > (No, I don't think the first Cycle was done _right._) > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: > http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com haiku prophecy see seventeen syllables into the future - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 02:14:03 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris Walter Milliken replied: > >I suspect it could be either. Other related questions include things like >matching the fingerprints and retinaprints of someone else using this Song. >In my game, I'd probably rule that ordinary use of this Song is basically >cosmetic unless there's a template handy to copy the genuine Symphonic >strains from. In some cases, the result might indeed include genetic >changes, if that were the easiest way for the Song to work (i.e., picking >up some fairly strong "racial genotype" theme from the Symphony and >applying it). > I think that the GM could in all fairness ask for a little more Essence expenditure for such a _complete_ copy of a person (fingerprints and all). Which leads me to ask; what's the official take on spending +1 Essence to mimic a person's voice? - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:42:12 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Infinity > However, in my own private "someday I wanna do this" notion< I have the In Nomine/Armageddon/Cyberpunk mix that I would love to put together in my "free time" I don'y know if I could convince any of my players to play in it mind you... Well, ok, I probably could if it was set up as a marvelously over the top, blood&guts, with Angels and Demons with BIG gums fighting off slithery tentacled Things From the Deep Marches... I don't know if I would ever put the work into it but the thought has brought a smile or two to my face. Michael and Lucifer meeting on a battlefield, eyeing each other warily. Michael is even more battle-worn than normal and Lucifer has a somber look to his eyes. M: "It is agreed then?" L: "Yes, it is a Truce." Long pause while there is the sound of jets and explosions in the background. M: "Saminga joined Them?" L: "Yes, as did Vapula, Belial, and Haagenti, I think Kronos has also... Nybbas is gone... and Kobal... and-" M: "I was there with Baal. He held them back so I could escape with Christopher." L: "Did he..?" M: A cool measuring gaze, "He died with Valor..." A longer pause this time, there is the distant sound of screaming carried along by the wind and then there a low rumble of Disturbance as members of the Host descend to battle. L: "Have you found Marc or Novalis yet?" M: "Eli brought Novalis back a few days ago and then disappeared again. She needs time to recover. He has plans for the humans. I think he was Told that this was coming and began preparing awhile ago. Marc is lost" L: "How...?" M: "Yves has informed us. He also suggested that I come to this meeting despite what I thought... With that smile on his face..." L: "Lilith is missing." M: "I saw her in Occupied Lands, helping some people escape. A large number of Marc's Malakim seem to be infatuated with her and follow her around and keeping her safe." The two gaze out into the deepening night for a few long moments. L: "Our differences pale in comparison to this Evil... I always told myself that I would never return." Again the two look out in the night where fires have leapt up in the distance. M: "Don't lie to yourself.." L: M: "...you cannot do this half-way." The two look into each others eyes and then Lucifer relents. M: "He isn't very forgiving you know..." L: "Perhaps we can pass it off as teenage angst." The sound of laughter starts up and then fills the smoky air as they both contemplate Armageddon... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:52:00 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons > Whether Eli might have a chance at it is, at best, CDaU... O:> ) I would say that (and so does my GM) that what happened was the start of a minor choir... Thus was a major plot device born of Eli and a Bright. So let it be written, so let it be done... David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:56:36 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons > It's in FotM, yup. Not clear whether it's a "Human Force" or just a > "Lilith Force." Yes, there may be a difference. Or there may not. Muwhahaah! > (Yes, I'm weird right now.) So what's the theoretical difference between a "Lilith force" and a "Human force" if they both came from Lilith in the first place oh Great Wise One??? (I am also getting wierd and must go eat now, but I really do want to see the semantic juggling on this one...) David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:12:44 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Infinity >Michael and Lucifer meeting on a battlefield, eyeing each other warily. Fun. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:32:11 -0500 (EST) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> What if In Nomine were true? >>(P.S. Flavor note: Do you suppose that Nybbasketeers refer to other Princes >>as 'DPs' the way that corporate folks refer to vice presidents as 'VPs'?) > >Man, I wish that'd been brought up during the Nybbas playtest... Likewise... at the time, I was switching jobs, and had no time to visit Pyramid. Missed that playtest entirely. I'll just have to see the results. :) Jason - --- jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life) werther@hilander.com (play) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:47:19 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> Social Munchkins I was looking through my main book today when I figured out a way to get a truly obscene reaction roll when dealing with PC's. Being the ever lovin' servitor of Malphas that I am, I thought I'd tell you all (not that you probably haven't already seen this) sp that you can spring it on your PC's/GM's/any other arrangement of letters. Firstly, take a vessel with status 6, and 3 charisma. Secondly, take Intelligence or Prescision 12 and savoir-faire at 6.Try and manipulate circumstances where you can politely charming then wach the bonuses stack - 6 + CD for savouir faire added to 3 + CD for reaction roll, for a minimum check digit of +11, probable 16, possible top of 21 (!!!) with automatic succeses on both rolls (barring intervention) Create anybody like this, and you'll make Andre look plain. Or probably not. Kris Servitor of Malphas, Demon of really crappy excuses. P.S. Sorry about this, I was mauled by a killer monkfish and am still slightly high from teh medication I got given to help teh brain transplant. P.P.S. Sorry, I think sleeps in order. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:34:16 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Michael Martin wrote: > One could also make a case that Dominic has been forced through > Word-reflection to become more fair as humanity's idea of judgement became> more fair. Not likely. First, Dominic's Word is pretty strong, and pretty resistant to fads in human thinking, I believe. Secondly, you're assuming that humanity's idea of judgment has become more fair. The Western-style legal tradition may have evolved in that direction, but that doesn't mean much either to the rest of the world, or necessarily to how individuals pass judgment in their own hearts. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:43:46 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Social Munchkins bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: > Firstly, take a vessel with status 6, and 3 charisma. Vessel (minimum level 1) with +3 Charisma = 9 points, minimum. Role/6, Status/6 = 18 points. >Secondly, take Intelligence or Prescision 12 and savoir-faire at 6.< 6 points on Savoir-Faire. So you have a character who's spent just about ALL his points on social bonuses. Sure, he'd be great in social situations. Better hope he never gets in a fight, though. I don't see anything wrong with this per se. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:04:44 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> The same Word I have an angel NPC who has the word of Strippers. A Cherub, she works to protect and nurture the women who work in the trade, and to make a less dangerous and exploitative environment for them. I stick pretty close to canon, which has an Impudite Demon of Strippers (Lauren, from _Night Music_). So I have the two of them stuck with the same Word, and with each other. My take on this is that, although they've never actually met, they're really, really getting on each other's nerves. The clash of their personal Symphonies means that both are occasionally subject to minor but unpredictable Discord-like symptoms... headaches, nausea, like that. And each will sometimes flash on the other... usually when one is doing something that serves the Word, but is directly in opposition to the other one's nature. So, Rivkah will suddenly get a vision of Lauren draining Essence from a girl or callously manipulating one, while Lauren will occasionally hear Rivkah's voice giving gentle good counsel to someone or selflessly helping them out... I've also ruled that this situation is worse for Rivkah; occasionally being forced to feel an angel's POV is unpleasant for a demon, but it's even worse the other way 'round. They're both behaving a bit erratically, but the angel is on her way to developing Discord. Just for the hell of it, I've also ruled that the interaction of their Choir/Band attunements means that each has a vague idea where the other one is. Since Rivkah is the stronger of the two, she's been hunting Lauren, from Austin to Thailand to Las Vegas to Times Square... In the campaign, Rivkah is a helpful, caring NPC Cherub... except that she chain-smokes, and is a little absent-minded. And every so often she'll start rubbing her temples, grimacing with pain. The PCs have learned that this is a prelude to an anecdote, usually unpleasant, about "her" ("The poor girl is an addict. She needs help. But SHE doesn't care. SHE told the girl that it was okay as long as the customers couldn't see the needle marks. SHE thinks that's FUNNY..."). Plot hooks... either Rivkah is going to catch up with Lauren and ask the PCs to help, or Lauren (with some help) is going to lure the Cherub into a trap and the PCs will have to get her out... Fun abounds. Anyone else have a situation like this? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:23:19 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Social Munchkins >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >So you have a character who's spent just about >ALL his points on social bonuses. Sure, he'd be great in social >situations. Better hope he never gets in a fight, though. You could always take a few levels of discord (perhaps "Murderous", or "Lustful"), and pick up the Ethereal Song of Attraction too... jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:05:45 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: IN> Social Munchkins I was looking through my main book today when I figured out a way to get a truly obscene reaction roll when dealing with PC's. Being the ever lovin' servitor of Malphas that I am, I thought I'd tell you all (not that you probably haven't already seen this) sp that you can spring it on your PC's/GM's/any other arrangement of letters. Firstly, take a vessel with status 6, and 3 charisma. Secondly, take Intelligence or Prescision 12 and savoir-faire at 6.Try and manipulate circumstances where you can politely charming then wach the bonuses stack - 6 + CD for savouir faire added to 3 + CD for reaction roll, for a minimum check digit of +11, probable 16, possible top of 21 (!!!) with automatic succeses on both rolls (barring intervention) Create anybody like this, and you'll make Andre look plain. Or probably not. Kris Servitor of Malphas, Demon of really crappy excuses. P.S. Sorry about this, I was mauled by a killer monkfish and am still slightly high from teh medication I got given to help teh brain transplant. P.P.S. Sorry, I think sleeps in order. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:32:17 -0600 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori > Secondly, you're assuming that humanity's idea of judgment has become more fair. The Western-style > legal tradition may have evolved in that direction<< Agreed. If we look at sheer numbers of people involved and go with the theory that mass belief influences a Sup. Word than I would argue that looking at the amount of people in the Far East, Africa, and South America compared to the number of people in Europe and North America I think that it is much more likely that Dom. has been twisted as the concept of "Judgement" has in the minds of much of the Earth's population. Remember it's "Judgement" not "Justice." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:02:17 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Seraphs will always go by their true name or its derivitives, and will still say things like, People Call me Tim. What is to stop a Seraph saying "You can call me " this is without a doubt the literal truth (unless the other person can't speak), as the other person can call them whatever they please. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:55:13 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori At 15:42 -0500 1/20/00, Richard Gant wrote: >On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, David Edelstein wrote: >> If the whole Choir was judged impure by the Seraphim Council, I think >> Uriel would have gone along with a move to purify Heaven itself. > >Obviously, I'm dealing with hypotheticals here. The way I see it, Uriel >*couldn't* stood for such a thing. The decision to punish all the Grigori >for the actions of the majority would have grated against his Word (at >least, the way I interpret his Word). I think he'd have been much more >likely to demand a purification of the Seraphim Council for such an act. Not necessarily -- not all the ethereals were "guilty" of anything against Heaven, but he didn't seem to draw much distinction among the various groups. When "purifying" something, it's perfectly possible to throw out some of the good with the bad. (Also see my comment on Dominic, below.) >For that matter, how could Dominic have cast out all the Grigori if not >all of them were guilty? Surely he'd get hammered with dissonance for >that? Note that they were exiled to Earth, and not necessarily actually Outcast. I can see him being more worried about cross-contamination if left in Heaven than about a minor injustice (barring them from Heaven). He may have been at least somewhat unhappy about it, though. It was probably a compromise. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori This is actually an issue IMC. The PCs briefly encountered, and accepted help from, the ronin-spirit from the Book of Servitors. This got their knuckles rapped by Judgment. It was explained to them that e-spirits are all potential pagan gods; help one today, and next week there are little shrines to Pokemon on every block... They don't quite buy it. Which is fine. The next e-spirit they meet isn't going to be nearly so benign. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:25:11 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori >From: Walter Milliken >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > >For that matter, how could Dominic have cast out all the Grigori if not > >all of them were guilty? Surely he'd get hammered with dissonance for > >that? Because *all* the rest of the Archangels on the Seraphim Council at the time heard the evidence and agreed to outcast their own Grigori servitors. It must have been quite damning. > >Note that they were exiled to Earth, and not necessarily actually Outcast. I'd thought it was stated somewhere that the whole choir was declared Outcast. Just think about what they might have had to have done, to bring down that sort of punishment ... I'm imagining that for the whole choir to be punished: a) There maybe weren't that many of them in the first place b) Even the ones who didn't take part in the dodgy activity helped hide what their choirmates had done c) Anyone who was actually innocent chose to take the same punishment as their choirmates d) There is always a possibility that they were given a specific task to do on Earth, as penance jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:58:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus Familiaris At 2:14 AM +0000 1/21/00, Julian Breen wrote: >Which leads me to ask; what's the official take on spending +1 Essence >to mimic a person's voice? #1: the person should have a good familiarity with the other person's voice -- and may have to practice with a tape player! (One always hears one's own voice as deeper than all others; I don't see why a non-Kyriotate wouldn't have that problem.) #2: 1 Essence seems fairly reasonable, though if a GM is having problems with this being abused, the price should naturally go higher... (Or the difficulty of mimicking someone -- perhaps requiring a Perception roll at a penalty...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:03:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 8:56 PM -0600 1/20/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> It's in FotM, yup. Not clear whether it's a "Human Force" or just a >> "Lilith Force." Yes, there may be a difference. Or there may not. >>Muwhahaah! (Yes, I'm weird right now.) > >So what's the theoretical difference between a "Lilith force" and a "Human >force" if they both came from Lilith in the first place oh Great Wise One??? Well, it depends on if the GM considers that Lilith _is_ actually "human" anymore (some GMs don't, and she's certainly a _weird_ human...). Also, it depends on if you could somehow patch a Lilimesque being together by using _other_ human Forces (Mmm, damned soul!)... Or a Jodim or Bethim or something. (You don't know what resonance a Bethim would have. Just think of a whole Band of heartless editors... with skew senses of humor.) If you figure that Lilim are more "human" than many other Bands, then the _human_ nature of a Lilith Force is important. If not, then the Lilith nature of the Force may be more important. And that's what I'm going to ramble, none of which is canon (except maybe the Bethim, but they'll never appear in real canon anyway, so having canon on non-canon hypothetical Bands is kind of moot). >(I am also getting wierd and must go eat now, but I really do want to see >the semantic juggling on this one...) Better than cat juggling -- that's a fate, dontcha know. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:06:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What if In Nomine were true? At 10:32 PM -0500 1/20/00, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >>>(P.S. Flavor note: Do you suppose that Nybbasketeers refer to other Princes >>>as 'DPs' the way that corporate folks refer to vice presidents as 'VPs'?) >> >>Man, I wish that'd been brought up during the Nybbas playtest... > >Likewise... at the time, I was switching jobs, and had no time to visit >Pyramid. Missed that playtest entirely. I'll just have to see the results. >:) I'm tolerably pleased with the results. Even if a large number of the final edits were performed by me whilst I was Rather Ill with a cold. (Never edit with a cold. It's _bad_.) One of the Books from Hell to put together, though, from where I sit. I'll start feeling better about it when I see it published. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1504 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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