From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jan 22 21:44:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05775 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 21:44:55 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA28417 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 21:40:30 -0600 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 21:40:30 -0600 Message-Id: <200001230340.VAA28417@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1506 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, January 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1506 In this digest: Re: IN> Social Munchkins Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! Re: IN> Movies Re: IN> Movies Re: IN> Infinity Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy IN> Fledging Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Re: IN> Fledging IN> Demonic Jewelry Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Re: IN> Infinity Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Re: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:19:41 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: IN> Social Munchkins >> Firstly, take a vessel with status 6, and 3 charisma. > >Vessel (minimum level 1) with +3 Charisma = 9 points, minimum. Role/6, >Status/6 = 18 points. > >>Secondly, take Intelligence or Prescision 12 and savoir-faire at 6.< > >6 points on Savoir-Faire. So you have a character who's spent just about >ALL his points on social bonuses. Sure, he'd be great in social >situations. Better hope he never gets in a fight, though. I don't see >anything wrong with this per se. Well, I did have the subject heading social munchkins. But still, if you want to make someone who can vaugely handle themselves in a fight choose to have prescision as 12 then take 1 point of both ranged weapons and small weapons for an automatic success, and +1 to the CD. Or more if you want. Or you can just take discord - merciful seems appropriate. My point in doing this wasn't to show how to be a munchkin (well, mostly) but to provide an alternative (a very powerful one) to having JUST Impudites or Mercurians as your social friendlies. A Calabim arranged like that can have enourmous fun - nobody will believe that he is a Calabim. Besides, with a minimum result on the reaction table of 11 (when usually the maximum is 6) you should be able to alk your way out of anything, anyway. Kris Servitor of Malphas, Demon of Really Crappy Excuses who's feeling a lot better after some sleep. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:05:46 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy > >(She takes special pleasure in listening to > >couples planning their future, and specifically planning on not > >having children, for what she believes to be selfish reasons. In > >those cases, she will go to extra efforts to make sure conception > >takes place.) I hope she takes some measures to ensure that such couples actually have the potential to be good parents, despite their desire to remain childless. Otherwise, this "Oh, you want to have your own life and not be tied down by kids, huh? Well, I'll show YOU! Bwahahaha!" attitude smacks more of Dark Humor than the Wind. > >*The angels of abortion (for and against, actual words escape me) are > >the creation of David Edelstein, written and posted to the list > >several months ago. I do not know if he has put them anywhere other > >than here, else I would post a link). http://amadan.org/Innomine.htm, then click on "NPCs" to see the Angel of Abortion, the Angel of the Unborn, the Demon of Abortion, and the Demon of Pro-Lifers. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:14:46 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Walter Milliken wrote: > But there's nothing on this in canon. And if so, it doesn't necessarily > make sense that David's people then hunted them down after their exile. I don't think David's people did hunt them down after their exile. They hunted them down when their crimes came to light, and all those Grigori who weren't killed were rounded up to face judgment. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:16:30 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Jo Hart wrote: > >Another possibility e) The Council decided the whole Choir was potentially> >flawed in an exploitable way, and decided to limit the damage so they> >didn't become the core of a second Fall. > > If that was the case, then why not just kill them? The canon *I* wanted was that Dominic did indeed want them all exterminated, but he was outvoted by the Seraphim Council and had to settle for Outcasting. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:26:16 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Richard Gant wrote: > Well, I've thought about this for a while. I think that Uriel would be > fair (as would the other Archangels), or at least as fair as possible > (none of the Archangels are infallable, after all) given the information > they have and the nature of their Words. No. He'd execute what he believes to be God's will, which even the Bible says doesn't have to remotely approximate human notions of fairness. (Was it "fair" for God to single out Job as horribly as He did? There are plenty of theological rationalizations for how a _just_ God could do such things, but I've never heard anyone claim that God's treatment of Job was _fair_.) > (You could also replace Uriel with any other Archangel and et the same > argument - I don't think this is unique to any particular Archangel.) Not any other Archangel. I doubt Novalis, for one, was particularly happy with any of the Old Testament slaughters, though she may have accepted them as necessary/an ineffable part of God's Plan. > In the case of the Grigori, it would only be just if the only Grigori to > be punished were those who had sinned, because the perspective is > different. Here we have angels being punished because they knowingly went > against the commands of either God or the Seraphim Council (I'm not sure > which) - punishing the innocent creates a real (not perceived) state > change in them that they did not merit. But they can be punished en masse, just as the firstborn of Egypt were. It may explain why they weren't all *exterminated*, though; they get a chance to redeem themselves. > I don't think I agree. Biblically, righteousness does get equated with > fairness. Not always. At least not as we define fairness. > However, that fairness is from an eternal perspective instead > of a mortal perspective. (Besides, doesn't Judgement suffer Dissonance > for exacting a penalty greater than the crime merits?) Yup, but in many cases, it's Dominic who decides what penalty the crime merits. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:25:46 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! >Okay, the list is now restricted. Yay. (Vision of the Demon of Spam yelping in pain and annoyance) Yay. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:28:28 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Movies From: > Oh, that is so wrong! Saminga is an over the top Overlord style villain! The > kind who goes Mwahahahahahaha! for no obvious reason. Don't get me wrong, I > love the big, dumb jerk. nah, not the way i see him. i don't like the idea of an idiot getting to be a DP, pretty much under his own steam (haagenti was guided by kobal to his power). i see saminga as being a paranoid nutso, so tied up in his own neuroses that his view is much narrower than most superiors. but i don't think he's "dumb". and i definitely don't like the idea of him being a camp, alan rickman-style pantomime villian. the demon prince of death should be *scary* > Chris Walken is just COOL. He's quiet and sinister, and very clever. Not > Saminga at all. chris walken is clever, i'm sure. the gabriel he plays in the prophecy isn't that bright. he just follows the hero around, killing the odd person and turning others into his undead servants. not that quiet either, he's always coming out with lines about how much he hates those talking monkeys. and, as i said above, i think saminga *should* be sinister liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:29:57 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Movies From: Jo Hart > I could imagine him as Kobal very easily. i can se dennis hopper making a cool kobal liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:40:49 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Infinity From: Gregory Gietzen > Okay, we're on my turf now. I spent five years studying to be a cosmologist > before I went into theatre, just so I could crack the secrets of time > travel.If ANYONE goes back in time, and then returns to their own time, by > definition they have entered an alternate reality. If they did not, they > incur the wrath of Paradox erm, not to argue with your knowledge, but surely you can't make statements about "what will happen" if someone travels in time. i would have thought most scientists would just say it's not possible. others might go with the alternate universe theory (in effect, you're not really travelling in time, you're just travelling to an alternate universe that's X years behind the universe you left). i myself prefer the causal explanation. ie, it's pointless to say "what if i killed my granddad before he met my grandmother?" because you obviously *didn't*, as you're here. if it's happened, it can't "unhappen". so in other words, if you go back in time and try to kill your granddad, something obviously stopped you, like getting hit by a car or something erm, rambled a bit there, but that was my 2p anyway liam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:06:12 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) [...] > #1: You can't break someone else's Heart (unless you're a Superior who > is right there) without a powerful McGuffin, just so I don't have to make > rulings on this. You can break your own heart (demons do this when they go Renegade...If they can). I don't know the meaning of a McGuffin, nor the importance of one being powerful, so I may be missing something. But wouldn't anyone be able to break a heart, if they have access? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:08:57 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy > I like the character idea, but shouldn't she have the corporeal song of > fruition[...] The song Of Fruition, is not allowed (with a capital NOT and ALLOWED), it is a very quick way to get a Wrathful Judgement upon yourself. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:15:32 +1100 From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Fledging The discussion about the make-up of Lilim and Worded Imp/Reliever/Gremlin guys, has caused me to wonder, Do Word Forces count towards a fledge? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:46:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Azrael wrote: > > I like the character idea, but shouldn't she have the corporeal song of > > fruition[...] > > The song Of Fruition, is not allowed (with a capital NOT and ALLOWED), it is > a very quick way to get a Wrathful Judgement upon yourself. Wrong. The Corporeal Song of Fruition is uncommon, but perfectly legal to know. It's the ETHEREAL and CELESTIAL versions that are Big Time No-Nos. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! GET SOME SLACK, CREATE SOME SLACK, OR DIE THESE ARE YOUR *ONLY* CHOICES -- St. Bubba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:17:49 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Azrael wrote: > You can break your own heart (demons do this when they go > Renegade...If they> can). Which is why she said "You can't break _someone else's_ Heart." >>>I don't know the meaning of a McGuffin, nor the importance of one > being powerful, so I may be missing something. McGuffin is a literary term that refers to an element that is itself incidental to the real plot, but allows the plot to advance -- such as a powerful artifact that exists only to allow the characters to accomplish something that will further the story. > But wouldn't anyone be able > to break a heart, if they have access? No. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:18:45 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Azrael wrote: > The song Of Fruition, is not allowed (with a capital NOT and ALLOWED), it is> a very quick way to get a Wrathful Judgement upon yourself. Actually, the Corporeal version IS allowed. It's the Ethereal and Celestial versions (which allow ethereals and celestials to interbreed with mortals) that are forbidden. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:19:09 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Fledging Azrael wrote: > > The discussion about the make-up of Lilim and Worded Imp/Reliever/Gremlin> guys, has caused me to wonder, Do Word Forces count towards a fledge? No. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:15:45 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Demonic Jewelry yay! the Band sigil Jewelry is here! and so is new Choir earrings! earrings are only in Choirs as of yet, but that's one hell of a start. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:33:01 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy >Actually, the Corporeal version IS allowed. It's the Ethereal and >Celestial versions (which allow ethereals and celestials to interbreed >with mortals) that are forbidden. Everyone beat me to this response, but I definetly think that its must for the character. It does automaticly get around birth control, and even infertility (which can cause a lot of havok). However someone did bring up the good point that Tyche could very well have a future serving Dark Humour. Then again with the song of fruition and/or Word powers she could bring unexpected pregnancy to those who wouldn't mind it but believed it impossible. That would serve her Word, be a nice thing to do and would still cause a bit of havok (especially with the doctors trying to figure out what happened). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 16:17:46 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Infinity - ----- Original Message ----- From: Liam Astley > erm, not to argue with your knowledge, but surely you can't make statements I just did. What's to stop me? >;;;) > about "what will happen" if someone travels in time. i would have thought > most scientists would just say it's not possible. Time: A Traveler's Guide, by C. A. Pickover, ISBN 0195120426 This one is a charming little "pop culture" reader on why and how time travel is, if not possible, than very very probable. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 16:39:01 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) At 1:06 AM +1100 1/23/00, Azrael wrote: >[...] > > #1: You can't break someone else's Heart (unless you're a Superior who > > is right there) without a powerful McGuffin, just so I don't have to make > > rulings on this. > >You can break your own heart (demons do this when they go Renegade...If they >can). I don't know the meaning of a McGuffin, nor the importance of one >being powerful, so I may be missing something. But wouldn't anyone be able >to break a heart, if they have access? Breaking your own Heart is "simple" -- because it means rejecting the one surity -- the one thing that Loves you totally. The one sinecure you have in Hell. You just have to look it in the eye, and crush it. Breaking someone else's heart is nigh impossible, because it's secure. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:41:30 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Playtester list for 2, as of the draft I have, is... > > Robert Busek, Eric Alfred Burns, Jim Cambias, Emily Dresner, **Patrick > Duffy**, David Edelstein, Ryan Elias, Brook Freeman, Joanna Hart, Owen Kerr, > J. Michael Neal, Leath Sheales, and David Summers. Damn. I was hoping to get a playtest credit. But it's good to know that the guy who played Bobby Ewing in DALLAS is an IN fan. (In other words, I hope that's a typo there, and not the way my name's going to be printed in the book...) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia You people don't know what the truth is! It's there, just under their bullshit, but you never look! That's what I hate most about this fucking city - lies are news and truth is obsolete! - - Spider Jerusalem, TRANSMETROPOLITAN #5 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1506 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.