From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jan 30 09:29:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11097 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:29:54 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA26769 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:22:07 -0600 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:22:07 -0600 Message-Id: <200001301522.JAA26769@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1515 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1515 In this digest: Re: IN> Heresy: Haagenti Re: IN> Prince of Gambling? Re: IN> Bright Lil in big trouble RE: IN> Bright Lil in big trouble Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:41:21 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Heresy: Haagenti From: Maurice Lane > As I don't have a webpage at the moment, and I never > saw anything more from the guy who was going to put up > an IN Heresy page, I've decided to make it available > here. i'm planning on sticking a heresy section as part of my IN bit of my website. however, being a working boy i really only get time to do websitey stuff at the weekends, and only then when i can kick my flatmates off the computer. so it's taking a little time to come to together (not to mention the fact that i have to actually create some content for the rest of the site). but it *is* going to happen, at some point, eventually, probably, maybe, etc. so send happy-haagenti over and i'll stick him in with the others, if you like liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:03:31 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Prince of Gambling? From: Tim Groth > Actually in the Shal-Mari write up (or somewhere else which establishes > canon) it says that every casino is owned by a different Prince. Baal's > has gladitorial combat, Andre's has what you'd expect for entertainment and > Nybbas has clips from other casino's perfomances. back in the campaign i ran one of the characters was a free lilim, she was back in hell for a meeting with one of her "contacts". they did it at Baal's Collosseum, where the souls of human warriors fought it out in a vague (false) hope for freedom. one team had machine guns, the other team had crossbows and an attack coptor. the audience were betting essence on who'd win liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:17:05 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lil in big trouble >At 23:08 -0500 1/27/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >>What would a Baron of Greed and/or the Game want to use a Bright for? >>Besides a footstool, I mean? > >The Game would probably like to retrieve the Bright and execute him, >like any Renegade. Does a fully redeemed demon count as a renegade? Would the Game still claim authority over one? >Most likely they'd want to snare him and drag him >down to Hell for a quick trial and a lengthy execution. The Game isn't >likely to take many chances, unless they see a way to catch more people >in their net (or Trip up some angels), so this isn't a very survivable >option. Yeah. >Greed would probably want to capture him, and auction him off to the >highest bidder (certainly Andre would bid on him!). Since Greed doesn't >have much strength in Hell, they might hold him corporeally, and hold >the auction on Earth -- that would give him more of a chance to escape/be >rescued/be purchased by his friends, so I'd probably go with that. Ha. Interesting idea. I also thought of having him steal something from Heaven... but what? A book from the Library? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:09:23 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Bright Lil in big trouble At 23:08 -0500 1/27/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >The Game isn't likely to take many chances, Humm.... Why? Isn't it all part of the game? I'd really like to see the game become something other than dark Dominic. But I guess I'll just have to wait till Superiors 6 or is it 4? Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:28:29 -0800 From: Stephen Gingell Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Tim Groth wrote: > I know this has been asked before but is there a canon explanation > and mechanism dealing with the ethereal need for essence? I don't know of any. It would be very difficult to come up with a satisfactory equation which provided a concrete mechanism. I'm thinking of something like: (Number of Worshipers)x(Devotion Variable)x(Some Constant)=(Number of Recources the Ethereal can be worth). Any definite formula would have to take into account the high and low end (there is an ethereal spirit in cannon produced by the nostalga of one city's inhabitants, presumably a small number of people, whereas New Age Pagans giving praise to some sort of Goddess figure probably go into the millions worldwide) An equation would need to produce a city spirit with enougth forces to be interesting, while at the same time not making the Goddess work out to hundreds of forces... A precise formula might also tie the GM's hands more than be usefull, in a game I ran there was a viscious six forces spirit which lived in the mind of (and was sustained by) only one person's intense psychological trauma. That sort of thing would be difficult to reconcile with a formula. My inclination is to make a really big deal out of the unquantifiable "Devotion Variable" and say that even hundreds of people who think casualy about Athena while enjoying mythology give less essence than one true zealot who's mind is consumed with images of her 24 hours a day. That way an Etheral can be pretty much as big or small as plot and theme demand. >It doesn't deal with ethereals dying by essence starving, because I really can't think of a very good >mechanism for that (considering they can regenerate essence naturally). A quick and dirty rule could make them *eat* essence. Even if they regenerate essence naturally they may need to consume more than they can produce or starve (i.e. loose forces, resources, etc...). If they needed, for instance, 1 point of essence per month for each resource they were worth (with forces counting as 10 resources), payable anytime during the month. That way even if an ethereal can generate around 30 essence a month on their own they'll starve down to about 2 or 3 forces without outside help. The details would have to change for it to work right, but that's my basic idea... - -Stephen Demon of Not Having anything Witty to Say ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:07:27 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence > > I know this has been asked before but is there a canon explanation > > and mechanism dealing with the ethereal need for essence? > > Any definite formula would have to take into account the high and low > end (there is an ethereal spirit in cannon produced by the nostalga of > one city's inhabitants, presumably a small number of people, whereas New > Age Pagans giving praise to some sort of Goddess figure probably go into > the millions worldwide) Ok. Theories on Ethereals? Given Uriel's campaign, etc., where are we today? I dislike the whole concept of "gosh, most of the remaining Ethereals took refuge with Beleth" to the extent that I've tossed it out. Hiding, yes. But I'm still in the process of reengineering the way they hid - I refuse to make Ethereals primarily Hellbound. (Then again, I'm also rewriting the sorcerer rules to make more use of the whole concept of 'white' magicians as well.) Which, of course, leaves me with the whole issue of the resurgence of pagan religions today and their interaction with the IN campaign world. Comments? Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:33:48 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence >I dislike the whole concept of "gosh, most of the remaining Ethereals took >refuge with Beleth" to the extent that I've tossed it out. Hiding, yes. >But I'm still in the process of reengineering the way they hid - I refuse to >make Ethereals primarily Hellbound. (Then again, I'm also rewriting the >sorcerer rules to make more use of the whole concept of 'white' magicians as >well.) > >Which, of course, leaves me with the whole issue of the resurgence of pagan >religions today and their interaction with the IN campaign world. Comments? The question was actually brought on because I'm planning a campeign in which Set decides that is times to raze Heaven and Hell (incidently also having God lay dead at his feet is a part of it). But I like the idea of ethereals needing essence (though some of the egyptian gods were mortals before being gods, and thus they are Deified dream shades so they can't fade, only deflate to their natural level of power), right now I'm tempted to go with 10 essence a month per Force or you loose the Force. Because of this lots of ethereals did through in with Hell, the only place they could, if just to get a chance to maintain there existance. However mythic beings are better off (anytime someone remembers them in a way that involves essence, ie an Artist paints a dragon and gains an essence from it, they gain the essence involved). So Beleth has very few mythic beings serving her, at least not the ones that are remembered. However because ethereal gods (in the way I have it set up) have to pay 20 extra essence a week to keep the Deity attunement active and thus there godlike powers up. I'm also rewriting sorcerey to make it more free form, and thus more usable not just by hell bound folk (I remove the demon of sorcerery, she always bothered me anyway). Lots of the pagan resurgence does not really capture the origonal nature of the gods involved. However using there name and appropriate worship rites to there Concept (basicly Aspects for none primal spirits that when combined with the Deity attunement allow additional Forces, which explains how the ethereal gods once rivaled Archangels in raw power) they may well be getting through to those gods. Hell is probably takes a dimmer view of this, if the ethereals can stand on there own two feet again then they won't need Hell's help. Heaven isn't going to repeat Uriel's crusade, and it isn't going to just kill mortals for worshiping ethereals. Heaven may not like it but they'll just try and convince more people to follow a divine religion. I'd assume that a worshiper would provide about 3 essence a week to there god, though when the week overlaps a sacred day it would probably be 4 to 6. Ethereal's that like sacrifice are likely to be better off, assuming that there followers are able to make those sacrifices. That's assuming you use just the worship rites method of gaining essence. If you do what I do then anytime one of the ethereal's worshipers pray to there god before doing an action which they blow essence on that essence goes to the god (which helps them out). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 02:38:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Kiara S. Legner wrote: > Ok. Theories on Ethereals? Given Uriel's campaign, etc., where are we > today? Theories on Ethereals. Well, in my campaign, the Ethereal gods are Renegades, Outcasts, Nephilim with huge egos, and Sorcerer-Kings who are trying to avoid a final judgement. Ethereals are either creations of the "gods" (through various Songs or massive Essence expenditures), escapees from mortal dreamscapes, or both. There's also a Malakite of Creation with the Word of The Dragon Court who'se job it is to judge which ethereal spirits may cross through the Vale of Dreams into Earth and which may not. > Which, of course, leaves me with the whole issue of the resurgence of pagan > religions today and their interaction with the IN campaign world. Comments? There's a few different ways to approach this: 1) The neopagan movement is fueling the Ethereal gods. 2) The resurgance of pagan religions is a tool of Hell, used to draw humans away from Divine religions and down to their Fates. 3) The pagan religions are a tool of Heaven, helping refocus mortals on the Divine in a form they can understand, and encouraging them to reach for their Destinies. 4) The neopagan movement is a purely human invention. It is currently having minimal effect on the Ethereal gods, and both Heaven and Hell are puzzled by it's appearance (and are attempting to capitalize). 5) All of these are true. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:06:12 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Hmm. I must be a freak because I really like the idea that most ethereals are working for Hell or fall firmly into the Selfish side of the good/bad divide -- and I love the way IN sorcery encourages sorcerors to get their power through selling their souls to hell and enslaving minor spirits. To me, it gives the game a very distinctive flavour. I like the angels to be right about these things, it makes Heaven a lot more beleagured. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:47:23 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence > I know this has been asked before but is there a canon explanation >and mechanism dealing with the ethereal need for essence? > > Currently I have in place a Diety Attunement which indicates that >an ethereal being is worshiped, and the amount of essence they receive >determines how much powre that grants them. It doesn't deal with ethereals >dying by essence starving, because I really can't think of a very good >mechanism for that (considering they can regenerate essence naturally). I dunno either, I'd say that I'm as confused as you are on this one. My guess is that is had something to do with Ethereals needing Essence just like Hell does (which is why Hell keeps leading humans to their Fates away from Heaven, the better to "harvest" their essence like so much milk from cattle). Of course, WHY Hell needs the essence, or WHAT Hell does with it, I dunno, though I suppose it has something to do with the essence needs of the Demon Princes. I once came across a website explaining the "Outer Marches", a place in the Dreamland beyond the Far Marches, a place from where celestials, if they dared to visit, would return (a) insane (b) would return Fallen (c) gibbering about incredibly powerful beings or (d) all of the above. I kinda envision such a place to hold Ethereal beings of immense power, perhaps formed from the Dreams of aliens or from the Dreams (hopes/fears) of God/Satan/AAs/DPs themselves. Or, like humans on earth, and celestials in Heaven/Hell, they are the "native" inhabitants of the Dreamlands . . . Or perhaps its another portion of the Celestial realm which doesn't include heaven or hell . . . Anyway, why would the ethereals in the Vale and the Far Marches even require the essence of humanity? Perhaps its not the essence they need so much but the belief in them and its through the essence that the belief is carried to them. I dunno, I think the whole Old Gods pushed back to the Dreamlands is pretty lame, myself. But, it fits the Judeo/Christian/Islamic-centricness of the game and is in line with the Original French Game as well. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html Think, or be damned. - --Bryan Penton ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:20:29 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence From: Kiara S. Legner > Which, of course, leaves me with the whole issue of the resurgence of pagan > religions today and their interaction with the IN campaign world. Comments? i like the idea of the most of the active ethereals being hellbound, since it means that (in IN at least) the rabid claims of christian fundamentalists that new age stuff like wicca is evil and satanic would actually be right. i find the idea amusing :) liam ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1515 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.