From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 31 12:17:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA32065 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:17:41 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA30633 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:14:45 -0600 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:14:45 -0600 Message-Id: <200001311814.MAA30633@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1516 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, January 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1516 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence IN> Khalid Re: IN> Khalid Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Khalid Re: IN> Prince of Gambling Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence RE: IN> Ethereals and Essence Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:38:05 -0500 (EST) From: "N.M. Wallace" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Jo Hart wrote: > > > Hmm. I must be a freak because I really like the idea that most ethereals > are working for Hell or fall firmly into the Selfish side of the good/bad > divide -- and I love the way IN sorcery encourages sorcerors to get their > power through selling their souls to hell and enslaving minor spirits. > > To me, it gives the game a very distinctive flavour. I like the angels to be > right about these things, it makes Heaven a lot more beleagured. I prefer the idea that God and Lucifer are ethereals who got lucky, mostly because they had the idea of creating servitors early on. The ethereals who weren't as quick off the mark went into hiding during Uriel's crusade. Many have simply faded without enough belief to sustain them, but others have managed to hang on, in part because of the monotheists' habit of co-opting bits from other religions. For example, Brigit, the Celtic fire goddess, became St. Bridgit. She's still around, and she can get some Essence by "siphoning" it from people who are venerating the saint. This works particularly well for deities like Isis, since the rise in the veneration of the Virgin Mary was a direct response to the lack of the divine feminine in Christianity. The older mother goddess can steal even more Essence. The main plot thread of my campaign is going to be that with signs pointing to Armageddon, the forces of Heaven have realized how badly they're outnumbered, and are looking for allies. This causes controversy both in Heaven, as Dominic and Khalid are *not* behind this idea, and with the old gods, who may not love Hell, but aren't at all happy with Heaven--the Yoruban deities, in particular, blame Heaven for the slave trade, which decimated their worship, and they're not looking to help them out now. It's going to be interesting, playing a game with a primarily monotheistic cosmology that's run by a Wiccan. Nancy Nancy M. Wallace @}----- darkrose@shore.net "The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." _Memory_, Lois McMaster Bujold ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:42:10 -0500 (EST) From: "N.M. Wallace" Subject: IN> Khalid I keep seeing references to him in the GM Guide, but he's not in the main sourcebook. If Khalid is the patron of Islam, then he's going to be real important in my campaign--the Egyptian gods are particularly pissed at him. Where can I find out more about him? Nancy Nancy M. Wallace @}----- darkrose@shore.net "The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." _Memory_, Lois McMaster Bujold ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:05:09 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid Khalid's first write-up can be found in The Final Trumpet, along with an adventure that focuses on him. he's better, expanded write-up is in the soon coming Superiors 3 (sorry you missed the playtest, it's a really good book). he was originally to be in the main book because he _is_ a major Superior, even if he has been a quasi-Outcast for a long time now. I believe he was cut for space, and IIRC same thing for Mammon. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF - -----Original Message----- From: N.M. Wallace To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Sunday, January 30, 2000 9:43 AM Subject: IN> Khalid > >I keep seeing references to him in the GM Guide, but he's not in the main >sourcebook. If Khalid is the patron of Islam, then he's going to be real >important in my campaign--the Egyptian gods are particularly pissed at >him. Where can I find out more about him? > >Nancy > > >Nancy M. Wallace @}----- darkrose@shore.net > >"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." > _Memory_, Lois McMaster Bujold > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:37:45 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence >Of course, WHY Hell needs the essence, or WHAT Hell does with it, I dunno, >though I suppose it has something to do with the essence needs of the Demon >Princes. Hell uses the essence to 'fund' the War. Also human souls are useful for spare forces. Now to respond to a latter message, although the idea of God being Yaweah to the nth power is interesting I prefer God being God, and Yaweh being an unlikely ethereal whose people Heaven coopted to start monotheism (before Yaweh grew that powerful). Thus from an ethereal perspective Yaweh vanishes from there realm, his people start worshiping one God and the angels and demons are starting to get more bold. They thus assume that Yaweh figured out some way to create a new realm. I like using a God that is very compasionate, not all powerful and doesn't intervene much because of the amount of disturbance that God's presence would cause. The mere entry of a portion of God (considering how many Forces make him up) to the ethereal or coproreal, or even lower celestial, causes a disturbance that can soul kill an Archangel. God decides to work in more subtle ways, and most often watches, along with all the souls that have reached the higher heavens, nudging things slightly through the channels he created for himself to work without destroying creation (Divine Intervention rolls indicate that a character activated one of those channels). This is also why Lucifer obliterated the Metatron, basicly he cut God's tongue out and forced God to either remain silent or rip up Heaven to create another way to talk directly to the angels. Also God is starting to get worried about the War, when Kronos schismed from God God felt fear. He knows that if Lucifer becomes powerful enough, and Hell manages to damn humanity and weaken Heaven enough that Lucifer can depose him. God isn't as concerned with loosing his job as he is with having his creation in the hands of Lucifer. Anyway that's how I run God IMCs and how I explain why ethereals think that God was once one of them. I do allow ethereals that are Deities to use the Songs of Life and Creation, though in their state of limited resources they often refrain from using those songs except when neccesary. Conceivably the Celestial Song of Creation would allow an ethereal god to create a new portion of the celestial realm and then become a unique kind of ethereal. That of course would resault in retribution from both Heaven and Hell, so its not something that most ethereals are willing to try (especially considering their enemies will have had much more experience in the celesal realm). The Higher Heavens although celestial are more refined than even that, and can't be created, don't need to be expanded. The lower hells are simular, they weren't shaped, they grow along with Lucifer's power. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:02:08 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence > i like the idea of the most of the active ethereals being hellbound, since > it means that (in IN at least) the rabid claims of christian fundamentalists > that new age stuff like wicca is evil and satanic would actually be right. i > find the idea amusing :) Amusing, yes, but too limiting for the campaign I'm running. I want the angels to be wrong, too... Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:11:24 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence > Hmm. I must be a freak because I really like the idea that most ethereals > are working for Hell or fall firmly into the Selfish side of the good/bad > divide -- and I love the way IN sorcery encourages sorcerors to get their > power through selling their souls to hell and enslaving minor spirits. Nope. Not a freak - just someone who likes the way canon is put together on the subject. There's a lot of it I like as well - just portions I don't care for. > To me, it gives the game a very distinctive flavour. I like the angels to be > right about these things, it makes Heaven a lot more beleagured. Y'mean Heaven isn't beleagured enough with the political schisms within its own ranks? Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:24:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, N.M. Wallace wrote: > I keep seeing references to him in the GM Guide, but he's not in the main > sourcebook. If Khalid is the patron of Islam, then he's going to be real > important in my campaign--the Egyptian gods are particularly pissed at > him. Where can I find out more about him? Right now, you can only find him in The Final Trumpet. Do *not* buy that book just to get Khalid, however... it isn't worth it. (Sorry, SJG.) His writeup in that book, as a crazed monster who beheads athiests and promotes Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, is next to useless. He's coming up in Superiors 3. I've seen the playtest version, it's very good, and well worth waiting a few months for. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Ninety-nine percent of life is what you make of it, so if your life sucks, you suck." -- Mike Muir ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:36:35 CST From: "Justin Buhler" Subject: Re: IN> Prince of Gambling >From: Tim Groth >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Prince of Gambling >Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:40:39 -0700 > > >Lilim of Vega >The Write up is good, but I have a question about this band attunement. >Does this mean that if a Lilim determines someone's need they offer them a >game of chance and tell the poor sap, "If you win I'll help you out with >[insert need here]. If I win you owe me." That's how it seems to me, but >its a bit confusing (I may just be medicated out of my mind). That's basically it, a Geas versus a Favor in a game of chance. > >Jackpot! > >For 2 Essence the Demon can shift any situation involving a gamble to >their > >favor. Unfortunately this does/can not affect any Celestial unless they >have > >agreed and accepted the bet and its wager. > >This isn't an instant win so how much does it shift it? Since I like the >Universe reaction roll I'd suggest adding the demon's celstial forces to it >when they use this. I always considered and used it as an instant win, but I'm sure GMs could use the Plus Celest Forces thing if it's more to their liking. >I liked this more than I thought I would (I wasn't really sure about a >demon prince of gambling). I can definetly see him as a minor Prince. >Well done. Thanx for the good review. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:45:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, N.M. Wallace wrote: > The main plot thread of my campaign is going to be that with signs > pointing to Armageddon, the forces of Heaven have realized how badly > they're outnumbered, and are looking for allies. This causes controversy > both in Heaven, as Dominic and Khalid are *not* behind this idea, and with > the old gods, who may not love Hell, but aren't at all happy with > Heaven--the Yoruban deities, in particular, blame Heaven for the slave > trade, which decimated their worship, and they're not looking to help them > out now. The Yoruban deities are blaming Heaven for the Ashante? I don't get it. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:57:16 -0500 (EST) From: "N.M. Wallace" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Richard Gant wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, N.M. Wallace wrote: > > > The main plot thread of my campaign is going to be that with signs > > pointing to Armageddon, the forces of Heaven have realized how badly > > they're outnumbered, and are looking for allies. This causes controversy > > both in Heaven, as Dominic and Khalid are *not* behind this idea, and with > > the old gods, who may not love Hell, but aren't at all happy with > > Heaven--the Yoruban deities, in particular, blame Heaven for the slave > > trade, which decimated their worship, and they're not looking to help them > > out now. > > The Yoruban deities are blaming Heaven for the Ashante? I don't get it. Sure. A large chunk of their worshipper base got taken away and forcibly converted. Financially and Essence-wise, those who profited were from monotheistic religions. N. Nancy M. Wallace @}----- darkrose@shore.net "The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." _Memory_, Lois McMaster Bujold ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:58:46 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Ethereals and Essence >I dislike the whole concept of "gosh, most of the remaining Ethereals took >refuge with Beleth" to the extent that I've tossed it out. Hiding, yes. >But I'm still in the process of reengineering the way they hid - I refuse to >make Ethereals primarily Hellbound. (Then again, I'm also rewriting the >sorcerer rules to make more use of the whole concept of 'white' magicians as >well.) While I probably won't be messing with sorcery any time soon (any white mages have to be NPCs who can exist outside rule sets), I have also done very much the same thing with my Ethereal Gods (though it was very difficult for the high profile gods to stay hidden for even a very short time)... IE the Olympians' location is very well known but the others are less common (exceptions for the Fates and the Muses, some of which are now better known than Hephestos(sp) the god of Blacksmiths and an Olympian). >Which, of course, leaves me with the whole issue of the resurgence of pagan >religions today and their interaction with the IN campaign world. Comments? I really need to study those before I comment, but I do know some (half-jokingly) sun-worshipers. Who would they channel essence to? Apollo? or the sun god of another pantheon who doesn't deal with poetry and prophecy? Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:20:36 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Essence From: Kiara S. Legner > > Amusing, yes, but too limiting for the campaign I'm running. I want the > angels to be wrong, too... > angels? wrong?! it's just as well uriel isn't around anymore or we'd have your head on a stick. since he got hoovered up to heaven, i guess i'll have to put up with your blasphemy :) it was never really a factor in my games, to be honest. i had to have some ethereal gubbins going on (because one of the players was a menunite of dreams) but the campaign was pretty much earth-based. and i can now get all those neil gaiman-caused pagan god fetishes worked out in the nobilis game i'm running liam ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1516 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.