From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Oct 6 14:23:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03485 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:23:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA21307 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:21:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:21:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200010061921.OAA21307@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1841 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1841 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions Re: IN> How would Lilith react? IN> Ethereals Nephilim (was Ethereals and Divine Religeons) Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> How would Lilith react? Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Morilim IN> Questions that may not be Frequent Re: IN> Morilim Re: IN> Artifact Question IN> The power of Prayer Re: IN> The power of Prayer Re: IN> The power of Prayer Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> Artifact Question Re: IN> The power of Prayer IN> PC IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note IN> Crusade (With all the connotations that it implies for a celestial) Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:22:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions ben wrote: > Of course, one could be a devout and sincere adherent to a divine > faith and be a Nephallim. (Nephalite?) "Nephil" is the singular, unless it's a female; then it's "nephila." Or rather "Nephall" and "Nephalla," for IN, I suppose, though I've always seen the other spelling. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:35:07 -0400 (EDT) From: ydobyns@princeton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Morilim On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, William J. Keith wrote: [...] > Control, and the Corporeal Song of Entropy(potential immortality) as part CSoE isn't potential immortality, unless you're consistently lucky. An unfavorable Intervention roll resets you to your real age. York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:39:06 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions At 10:48 AM -0700 10/5/00, Maurice Lane wrote: > >Honestly, can Heaven really ban those ethereal spirits >that have embraced an official 'divine religion', and >not end up hypocrites? The potential Hypocracy of Heaven seems like one of the subthemes of the whole game, though.... >Granted, those types of faiths >don't create ethereals, Voudoun and the Hindus both do. - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:53:15 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> How would Lilith react? Charles Phipps wrote: > > >> Besides, consider the Aura of Power that most Superiors have. Would > >> your character really get smartmouthed in the face of that? > > > > These are *PCs* we're talking about. When was the last time you saw > > one act prudently, intelligently or cautiously? If you have Lilith > > show up, the odds approach unity that someone will crack wise about > > her being a quisling traitor to humanity who has aided in the > > degradation and torment of billions of her fellow humans. > > I blame this on *PC God syndrome* basically it falls under the old D&D > line that everyone wants to be the hero of reality and one of the > reasons that we play RPGs is because they provide the chances to > affect events on such a grand scale. IN amplifies this effect, too. Take a standard starting PC. Straight off at bat he (or she) can kick butt, take names, and chew bubblegum -- all at the same time. And after they're done icing the bad guys, they can stiffen the spines of the meek, bring hope to those on the brink, and win the hearts of all the cute chicks (and cute guys, too) -- all because they're *angels*, on a *divine mission from God Himself*. And just for icing on the cake, for pure overkill of cool, he (or she) has got Ray-bans, a flaming sword, and a fast motorcycle. Now, do you seriously expect this PC to freeze up and kiss ass just because the Prince of Darkness has shown up? And if they won't do it for Lucifer, what are the odds they will for one of his flunkies? - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:50:57 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Ethereals Nephilim (was Ethereals and Divine Religeons) IMC Laurence and Khalid have a "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy that is generally respected by the Ethereal Courts. Khaldi and Laurence both overlook Ethereals which have converted to Islam and Christianity on the Earthly Plane (including Bridgit who IMC didn't die but is considered dead by the Celtic fey). More controversial to Khalid and Laurence are those who embody their causes but are not Islamic. Khalid has a very....uneasy relationship with the Hebrew and Al-lah's family in the Ethereal pantheons including Sophia and the children mentioned in Superiors 3. Laurence doesn't believe them to exist and would share Khalid's uneasieness if he saw them because they're relatively pleasant folk and believe in God...if hopelessly deluded (In THEIR opinion). Laurence on his own has trouble with the chimmerical King Arthur, Pelinore, Lancelot, Galahad etc...plus the Peers of Charlemagne, Roland, and a number of characters from modern fantasy like Strider and the like. Both Khalid and Laurence's "problem children" are very insistant on their ability to abide in the mortal plane to carry on "their father's work" but who will not pipe down like the other converts or hold VERY odd views (Arthur personally believes he will take command of England come Armageddon and tried to contact Tony Blair during the Kobal/Malphas plot). >I stand corrected and mistaken. David's angels went after the Nephallim, >not necessarily the Grigori. Yep and he came down hard Magog did. >Of course, one could be a devout and sincere adherent to a divine faith and >be a Nephallim. (Nephalite?) That is somewhat debatable. The orginal Nephalim basically grew up in a time/place/circumstance where they knew there was a God and they were his grandchildren and basically that meant that they had free reign to terrorize, annhilate, and slaughter humanity. Given supposadly these beings were horrofic to the extreme it's very likely they are as like Demons. You can be NOT BAD but you can never be good. Someone would have to redeem you like an Archangel but given the rarity and the unlikelihood...it's hard * Speaking of which does anyone know what a Fallen Grigori would be like? - -Charles Phipps * I'm not one to believe this personally because in my game the Nephilim are simply horribly deformed entities in Celestial form but not necessarily good or evil (and can be very attractive in vessels that are child of the Grigori). Basically Prophecy 3... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:47:36 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Morilim In a message dated 10/5/00 1:36:04 PM Central Daylight Time, ydobyns@princeton.edu writes: << > Control, and the Corporeal Song of Entropy(potential immortality) as part CSoE isn't potential immortality, unless you're consistently lucky. An unfavorable Intervention roll resets you to your real age. >> I never liked the idea that an unfavorable intervention has a consistantly predictable reaction every time, in the case of that song. Maybe an angel sings Corp Entropy, gets a 666, and Lucifer, having a Kobal sort of day, reduces the angel in question to the age of a newborn infant, and renders him immune to age modifying Songs and Attunements for the next 20 years or so. Reverend Brian A. Rogers BillionSix@aol.com ICQ# 22544590 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:50:06 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> How would Lilith react? In a message dated 10/5/00 1:53:56 PM Central Daylight Time, neelk@cswcasa.com writes: << Now, do you seriously expect this PC to freeze up and kiss ass just because the Prince of Darkness has shown up? And if they won't do it for Lucifer, what are the odds they will for one of his flunkies? >> I hear ya. For future reference, read Knights of the Dinner Table. Watch Bob and Dave. They represent more roleplayers than we'd really prefer. Reverend Brian A. Rogers BillionSix@aol.com ICQ# 22544590 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:23:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Morilim At 2:06 PM -0400 10/5/00, William J. Keith wrote: >>At 5:55 PM -0400 10/4/00, William J. Keith wrote: >>>>Interesting group. Do they have any Celestial Forces? >>>>I would suppose so, since they can use a resonnance and >>>>celestial knowledge and perception. >>> >>>I've checked everywhere I can, and resonances and Symphonic Awareness don't >>>seem to specifically require Celestial Forces. >> >>Eh? Bah. Errata time, very likely... But implicit on p. GIN17, >>regarding Remnants. > >Urf. My choice is now to rewrite, or discard. Or simply leave 'em and take the DinoLaser to canon. O:> Actually, a rewrite is easy, if you just build them more like the Saint template. (IIRC the Saint template.) Add a Divine Humanity, and there is little rewriting involved. IIRC. (And I think them bemusing, as I probably forgot to mention.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:36:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question At 5:53 PM +0000 10/5/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>If someone wanted a celestial-only weapon for combat (which could be >>kind of surprising to someone who assumed the character was unarmed), >>I might charge a single point -- sort of like a corporeal artifact >>costs a single point. > >Hrm... we currently have: >One point/level for items that manifest on only one plane; >Two points/level for those that manifest on two planes; >Three points/lvl for those that manifest on three planes. > >Why not charge three points/level for a Corporeal Artifact that can be >brought to the Celestial and Ethereal plane? Sure. Only then it's a relic, and not a Corporeal artifact! O;> (See the contracts of Mammon, in S4...) It is, naturally, an artifact that has no special niftykeen _powers_, save, of course, the power to come along to the other planes... >Question: >Given: I have a sword: Corporeal/3, Ethereal/4, Celestial/1. *squint* I'm not sure you can have an artifact with different levels in different realms. But I don't have access to LiberR at the moment (lightly sleeping baby on chest). >Logically, I >can bring it with me to the Celestial plane b/c it's a Celestial artifact. >*But* would it retain its properties as a Corporeal Artifact and Ethereal >Artifact? You can home in on any artifact you paid points for anyway, and there's nothing corporeal to break, so the corporeal artifact properties are moot. Any talismanic skill-boosting would be in effect celestially, I'd think. Presuming that it was a valid skill, of course. Lying in Heaven don't work so good. >Except that its Celestial nature *must* be inbued on the Celestial plane >(and Ethereal nature on the Ethereal plane), which means that if a character >has, say, Corporeal Artifact(sword)/3, it can *never* also become a >Celestial Artifact except through Intervention or a Superior. > >Man, that kinda sucks. Cope, get an Elohite of Creation, or make house rules. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:25:21 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Morilim >On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, William J. Keith wrote: >[...] >> Control, and the Corporeal Song of Entropy(potential immortality) as part > >CSoE isn't potential immortality, unless you're consistently lucky. >An unfavorable Intervention roll resets you to your real age. Hmm. Point. To be precise, the process(assuming an expenditure of E essence per use, and an average CD of 3.5 over a long period of time) can be expected to increase the user's mortal lifetime(averaging over all Morilim) by 756*E years, which is, frankly, longer than they would have had had they gotten what they expected... Look, you made me do probability theory. Thank you. :^) Make them unaging if you want, due to Lilith's life force, but otherwise quietly, non-Disturbingly human. Or, as special servants of God, make them immune to that particular effect. Or send them to the Upper Heavens(assuming they deserve it, dispersing if they don't) when they die. Or reincarnate them. Or have them know and use the Song of Sacrifice, which definitely fits with the Word of Martyrs, and has a chance of sending them to the Upper Heavens. Or any of a number of other workarounds, if you're interested in using them in your campaign. And I note that this little, err, "quirk" of the Song is listed in the LCant, but isn't mentioned in the G:IN version... officials, if I were playing a GIN campaign, which supersedes? Or is it errata'ed? >York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 16:27:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Morilim William J. Keith wrote: > Make them unaging if you want, due to Lilith's life force, but > otherwise quietly, non-Disturbingly human. Aren't they in vessels anyway? Vessels don't age (and don't cause Disturbance by not aging), unless the owner deliberately lets the clock start. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:13:29 -0400 (EDT) From: ydobyns@princeton.edu Subject: IN> Questions that may not be Frequent There's a couple of things that I've been wondering about since I first read the original IN hardcover. Looking over the FAQs, I note that they don't ever seem to have been asked or answered (of course, I could very easily not be looking at the right FAQs). They don't seem to have been addressed in a supplement, either. So, here goes, and my apologies if this has been covered in an FAQ that I missed, or if it's been fixed in the new hardcover. 1. Kyriotate/Shedim resonance, and Dissonance. Shedim, in particular, take dissonance if their hosts are killed, and have a fairly short time to find a new host if they wish to avoid Trauma. But, in the basic rules on Dissonance, it is declared that taking Dissonance makes a celestial's Resonance unusable for a period of time (longer than Shedim can sustain celestial form), and the Shedite resonance *is* the ability to find a new host. So the Dissonance rules, as written, would seem to make the Shedim rules for avoiding Trauma moot; the hapless demon can't actually employ the method that would avoid trauma, it simply gets to hang around in celestial form, with no ability to get a new host, until it gets sucked back to its Heart (or soul-killed by the Symphony, if Heartless). Kyriotates are in the same boat if the slain host is their last/only body. So is this in fact the case, or do Kyrios and Shedim get a free pass on the "Resonance disabled after taking Dissonance" rule? 2. Gabriel's Smite attunement. Yes, I *know* it always hits, despite the mysterious comment about "Accuracy +1"; *that* question *has* been answered, thank you. No, my problem is with the reference to a check digit in the damage it does. Since a check digit occurs, presumably a d666 roll has been made. Since an Attunement is being invoked, and should automatically work according to the general rules for Attunements, and since it has been clarified explicitly that Smite always hits, this d666 roll presumably has target number 12: automatic success. So the Gabrielite using Smite decides to burn some of her Essence improving the d666 roll, instead of directly feeding the Attunement cost. Every +1 to an automatic-success roll translates to +1 on the CD. Say a 9-force starting character, full up on Essence, is spending it *all* on Smite: Power the Attunement directly: damage is 9xCD with CD 1-6; minimum 9, maximum 54, average 31.5. Power the Attunement with 8, spending 1 to boost the roll and therefore the CD: damage is 8xCD with CD 2-7; minimum 16, maximum 56, average 36. 7/2 split gives 7x(3-8) for min 21, max 56, average 38.5 6/3 split gives 6x(4-9) for min 24, max 54, average 39 5/4 split gives 5x(5-10) for min 25, max 50, average 37.5 The question I have with this one is whether it's the intended outcome of the rules. It *seems* a perfectly straightforward consequence of the rules as written, yet I can't help but wonder if it's what the designers had in mind. I note that boosting the roll has relatively minor effects on the maximum possible damage, but it boosts the minimum by a *lot*. (As a GM I found that I had no particular objection to this; the spectacle of a 9-force Gabrielite spending all of her Essence to do 9 points of damage on rolling a CD of 1 gave a pretty unimpressive view of the power and majesty of divine messengers.) Of course, a subsidiary question comes to mind as I review what I just wrote: since Smite's d666 roll should have target number 12 by the general Attunement rules, does "+1 Accuracy" mean that it gets TN 13, i.e. that it already gets +1 to the CD for free? York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:21:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Morilim - --- BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > CSoE isn't potential immortality, unless you're consistently lucky. > An unfavorable Intervention roll resets you to your real age. >> > > I never liked the idea that an unfavorable intervention has a > consistantly > predictable reaction every time, in the case of that song. Maybe an > angel > sings Corp Entropy, gets a 666, and Lucifer, having a Kobal sort of > day, > reduces the angel in question to the age of a newborn infant, and > renders him > immune to age modifying Songs and Attunements for the next 20 years > or so. That's what I like about this list. Such a font of evil ideas... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "I wondered why somebody didn't do something. Then I realized that I was somebody." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:36:36 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question > >Except that its Celestial nature *must* be inbued on the Celestial plane > >(and Ethereal nature on the Ethereal plane), which means that if a >character > >has, say, Corporeal Artifact(sword)/3, it can *never* also become a > >Celestial Artifact except through Intervention or a Superior. > > > >Man, that kinda sucks. > >Cope, get an Elohite of Creation, or make house rules. O:> Thanks, Beth. :P - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation (KFC) perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:38:41 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The power of Prayer This is a curious thing but I was wondering if anyone had any rules for modifying the liklihood of a Divine Intervention....also the possibility of Archangels/Demon Princes interferring in their servitors service indirectly. I'm kinduv thinking that while I love the rules of Divine Interventions being altered to more and more profound ones depending on the effect they might have for the war or the like...I was wondering if the person being on holy/unholy ground or having gone through rituals, etc might provide a modifier. Or if that's just silly. Also I was wondering if anyone had ever figured out what exactly Prayer does in In Nomine. Do Archangels hear Prayers aligned to their words? How about Saints and the Damned? Does a Demon Prince sense when someone makes a curse for someone to die/go to Hell (ala Hamlet)/make love to him or makes an "evil prayer" to the like? You know like in the movie "Bedazzled" trailer where he says "I would do anything for that woman" and Elizabeth Hurley as a Lilim-esque devil appears. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:01:04 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> The power of Prayer Well worship rites carry essence to pagan gods, and Superiors. It can carry messages to Limbo. So I guess theoretically if a pagan god or Superior paid attention to the flow of essence they could pick out prayers. Being very powerful beings they probably can hear prayers. What they do with that probably varies. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:21:52 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> The power of Prayer >This is a curious thing but I was wondering if anyone had any rules for >modifying the liklihood of a Divine Intervention....also the possibility of >Archangels/Demon Princes interferring in their servitors service indirectly. Singing the Song of Trisagion - a rare, powerful, and extremely holy Song which doubles the chance of a Divine Intervention and removes any possibility of an Infernal Intervention in the area - will do this. See the Liber Canticorum for details. >I'm kinduv thinking that while I love the rules of Divine Interventions >being altered to more and more profound ones depending on the effect they >might have for the war or the like...I was wondering if the person being on >holy/unholy ground or having gone through rituals, etc might provide a >modifier. > >Or if that's just silly. Nah, see above. It's just hard, sacrosanct, and, as far as I know, otherwise impossible. >Also I was wondering if anyone had ever figured out what exactly Prayer does >in In Nomine. Do Archangels hear Prayers aligned to their words? How about >Saints and the Damned? Does a Demon Prince sense when someone makes a curse >for someone to die/go to Hell (ala Hamlet)/make love to him or makes an >"evil prayer" to the like? See Superiors 3 for some of this... the Angel of Prayer, a Word-Bound under Khalid, is described there. Other than that, the efficacy of prayer is a point of contention between just about every major religion in the world, so I'm probably safe in suggesting that the GM can decide. Going on a Catholic basis, which Laurence and Dominic would approve of, all prayers are heard by God, who responds if and when he chooses to, which translates to GM choice... and if someone is not only a Saint, in the IN sense, but a saint in the Catholic Church sense, then I think it would be pretty cool if they could hear prayers directed to them - *if* the human felt strongly enough about it to spend their Essence on the matter. Same for loved ones, if their grieving relatives cared enough to spend Essence on sending the prayer winging its way. A lot of prayers coming in all at once, though, unless it was a lot of people praying for the same thing, might be very distracting to anyone but a Superior or a Kyriotate. >You know like in the movie "Bedazzled" trailer where he says "I would do >anything for that woman" and Elizabeth Hurley as a Lilim-esque devil >appears. > >-Charlemagne William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 18:15:40 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question Perry Lloyd wrote: > Then why would an Ethereal/Celestial artifact exist on the Corporeal plane? It can't, unless it's given a corporeal form (much as a celestial can't really exist on the corporeal plane unless it has a vessel). It's assumed that most ethereal/celestial artifacts are given such a form during their creation, but they don't have to be. > Why would Ethereal characteristics continue to be used on the Celestial > plane if Ethereal artifacts are not? Arguably, Intelligence and Precision are mere "shadow qualities" that _don't_ really exist on the celestial plane. Those celestials in the "free-will-doesn't-exist" camp might think so, anyway. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 18:16:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Artifact Question Perry Lloyd wrote: > So.... *why* does Micheal prefer to only weild a Corporeal Artifact Axe (as> stated in Liber Reliquarum, though I'm proabably wrong) if he's *never*> going to use it in Celestial Combat. Sentimentalism. > Or, just he just rely on his Power-2 > hand strikes and Power-1 kicks b/c he's just that bad-ass . . . Yes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 18:25:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The power of Prayer Charles Phipps wrote: > This is a curious thing but I was wondering if anyone had any rules for > modifying the liklihood of a Divine Intervention....also the possibility of> Archangels/Demon Princes interferring in their servitors service indirectly. There's some mention of prayer in the CPG. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:24:30 +0930 From: Gnezda Subject: IN> PC Okay, I'm considering making a ghost pc. Just wondering if anyone's had any experience with them, and what are your thoughts? Obviously it'd be quite different to normal characters, I'd be able to do a lot of observing but very little in the way of actual intervention. Also, initially I was going to make a 7-Force nephallim (mother a child of the Grigori, father Eli ;)) who was a fantastic artificer, and was going to give him largely skills like Enchantment, and have his primary purpose to make artifacts for the PCs, but now I was considering making him a ghost instead and have him (possibly) no longer be a nephallim. Just wondering, can ghosts ever gain new forces? It doesn't say they can, but I assumed all immortals (with the exception of undead) were no longer bound by their limited Forces, since they're now essentially celestials. Also, can ghosts use any song, or only corporeal ones? My other idea was a saint who's come back into physical form and whose primary role is to lay dead spirits to rest. To do this, he'd have to use Sorcery, ie banishment, etc. Just wanted your opinion on this idea, since no saint has ever practiced sorcery, according to the CPG. Also, saints can use any song, right? Thanks, Milan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 13:37:59 BST From: "nick sands" Subject: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note :snip: >>I'd have thought the temptation to appear just before the Creation, so as >>to > do it >>'better' -- or at least provide a 278 page design document to >>provide > a creation >>guide -- would be quite strong :) >Trouble is, neither a time machine nor any other mode of time travel can >get to >"before" the Creation, for the same reason that a train can't >travel to a place the >tracks don't reach. One of the extremely few issues >on which Saint Augustine and >Steven Hawking agree, so it's probably a >valid assumption, even in In Nomine :-). Aha, but thats the beauty of an intervention roll... What if Vap did manage to get there before creation? Then he would be god!! thus a redeemed version of Vapula, (not really redeemed, but he would be the new 'good') with out any of his lab equipment would set as god, Create a load of releavers, tell them they are all powerfull Archangels, wait a few eons for the great fall and the war and know loads of stuff and seem ineffeble, just like god does!!!! Also, as a side note, wht percentage of Eli's followers have fallen, and what infernal boss do they flock to? Im just curious is all... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 07:53:53 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note At 07:37 AM 10/6/00, you wrote: >Aha, but thats the beauty of an intervention roll... What sort of intervention roll? Divine Intervention wouldn't let him do it - - or else it would, but it'd permanently strand him there, two days before /anything/ happened... and an Infernal Intervention allowing him to do it implies that Lucifer is more powerful than God. Which is, of course, all well and good if you want to run your campaign that way, but it's not canon. >What if Vap did manage to get there before creation? >Then he would be god!! thus a redeemed version of Vapula, (not really >redeemed, but he would be the new 'good') with out any of his lab >equipment would set as god, Create a load of releavers, tell them they are >all powerfull Archangels, wait a few eons for the great fall and the war >and know loads of stuff and seem ineffeble, just like god does!!!! Problem with that is that Archangels and Princes (as I recall) create relievers and demonlings, respectively, by drawing their Forces out of the Symphony. .../what/ Symphony? Yves hasn't created it yet. For that matter, Vapula wouldn't have anything to fuel his Word... how fast do Word-Forces disintegrate in a Symphonic void? >Also, as a side note, wht percentage of Eli's followers have fallen, and >what infernal boss do they flock to? Im just curious is all... IMC, not a whole lot. They generally flock to Andre or Vapula, if they do Fall. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:13:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Crusade (With all the connotations that it implies for a celestial) New idea, popping through my head. Well, actually, it was placed there by my long-suffering girlfriend, who got tired of my ranting on a certain subject. Here's the teaser... Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Now, if I can just get fellow-traveller Servitors of Judgement in on this without Dominic catching them within a week... (From a manifesto discovered nailed to the door of Laurence's Cathedral. All Word-Bound are reminded to report discoveries of complete copies, or any individual distributing it, to the appropriate agency of the Inquisition AT ONCE.) "Enough is enough. The Council may not want to admit it, but we all know why the Lady Gabriel is unwell. It's not because of her role in creating Christianity and Islam. It's not because of her self-imposed exile. It's not even from the Cruelty of Dominic's persecution. "Now, our Lady is unwell because of Belial. His treason and betrayal caused her anguish: his continual rape of her Word rips at her soul every second of her existence. Belial makes a mockery of Fire, and it's driven our Lady to depths of frustration and pain without parallel. "The Council doesn't see this: they focus on symptoms and ignore the disease. Or perhaps they don't actually care. We don't know, and frankly, it's no longer important why they refuse to act. If the Council has become so ensared in political manuevering that they can no longer see the proper path to take, then the Host must take matters into its collective hands. To save Lady Gabriel, Belial must be destroyed ... and destroyed in such a manner that no demon will _ever_ again consider taking the Word of Fire. "Enough is enough. By God Almighty, enough is enough." ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:58:15 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note > For that matter, Vapula wouldn't have anything to fuel his Word... how fast > do Word-Forces disintegrate in a Symphonic void? Uh... did we just start from "Vapula manages to travel back in time all the way to BEFORE the Creation" and finish at "the Symphony, the Creation, celestials, humans etc will never exist" ?? Wow. Now THAT's a seed! :-) But more seriously, even if an Intervention somehow sent Vapula back to pre-Creation times, I don't think it would prevent the creation of God from nothingness and all the well-known consequences. The only difference would be that Vapula would become the very first demon (I don't think time-travel has any direct effect on redemption). Not the most powerful, though! Just the first... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:39:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 06:46:25 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Othniel, Jean, Vapula, Dominic, and Laurence > >>Nasty. Of course, seeing as Vapula's a Habbalite, I >>could see him wanting to examine previous examples of >>Divine manifestations on earth, up close and personal >>(not to mention down to their component atoms >I'd have thought the temptation to appear just before >the Creation, so as to do it 'better' -- or at least >provide a 278 page design document to provide a >creation guide -- would be quite strong :) Good one. Of course, God help us... ... maybe he did. It _would_ explain a lot, don't you think? ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:48:41 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note > The only difference would >be that Vapula would become the very first demon (I don't think time-travel >has any direct effect on redemption). Not the most powerful, though! Just >the first.. > Not quite. He'd be able to name God, so might take Yves' place ... jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:58:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note Laurent wrote: > I don't think it would prevent the creation of God from > nothingness and all the well-known consequences. The creation of who from what? If that's part of IN canon, it's the most deviant piece of theology in it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 13:18:16 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note - --On Friday, October 6, 2000 4:48 PM +0000 Jo Hart wrote: > > > > >> > The only difference would >> be that Vapula would become the very first demon (I don't think >> time-travel has any direct effect on redemption). Not the most >> powerful, though! Just the first.. >> > > > Not quite. He'd be able to name God, so might take Yves' place ... > Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Face contorting between ammusement and horror.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:05:02 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> timetravel/vap and eli side note At 4:48 PM +0000 10/6/00, Jo Hart wrote: >The only difference would >>be that Vapula would become the very first demon (I don't think time-travel >>has any direct effect on redemption). Not the most powerful, though! Just >>the first.. >> > > >Not quite. He'd be able to name God, so might take Yves' place ... Or perhaps did.... - -- I have a broken hand, so spelling errors, capitalization errors, and extremely slow response times should be treated as precious things, not errors, because I'm not about to correct them. Neener. Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:20:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:07:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Malakite of Trade, IST Freedom Laurent wrote: >> Not saying it's not possible, but if it was, >> wouldn't that be the >> cruelest thing one could do to a Malakite? >Just about. I wonder, could a Superior nip in at the >moment of creation and make a non-standard Malakite >with different starting oaths? I'm not sure that one would _want_ to. The Malakim have that "stand fast, no matter the cost" mojo going, even after any hypothetical tarnishing from the Revelations Cycle, and at least part of it must be coming from their oaths. Mess with them, and you could end up with a fallen blackwing for real. No way a AA wants to get _that_ kind of reputation attached to his or her name, IMHO. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:20:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:18:14 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and Divine Religions >>I don't think that's generally correct. The >>Grigori, in particular, were just plain cast out; as >>I understand it, Heaven gives them the cosmic cold >>shoulder, but doesn't seek them out for further >>stamping on just because they're Grigori. >I stand corrected and mistaken. David's angels went >after the Nephallim, not necessarily the Grigori. > >Of course, one could be a devout and sincere adherent >to a divine faith and be a Nephallim. (Nephalite?) Heh. I forget: do they make it into Heaven? And, if so, who do they yell at when they get there? :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1841 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.