From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 1 02:01:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26439 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:01:49 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id CAA07872 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:01:02 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:01:02 -0600 Message-Id: <200011010801.CAA07872@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1894 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1894 In this digest: Re: IN> Saints in Hell Re: IN> Fwd: Names of God Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Re: IN> Sidekicks -- again Re: IN> What *are* Songs? Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Re: IN> The inevitable Halloween question. IN> Superiors and opposing words IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 IN> Yipe! IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Re: IN> The inevitable Halloween question. IN> Malakite of War IST Flowers? (was re: Michael, the Peacemaker?) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1884 Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1890 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1891 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1893 IN> meaning of names IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1893 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:11:52 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Saints in Hell - ----- Original Message ----- From: Krishnaswami, Neel To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Re: IN> Saints in Hell > > > > I dunno. I got the impression that Shal-Mari was a better sort of > > realm for humans. If he's smart and watches his step, then he could > > keep his forces and do pretty well (just look what Shal-Mari did to > > Errol Flynn). > > ISTR he was in Nybbas's service, and thus not in Shal-Mari proper? According to Heaven and Hall, he talked his way out of Perdition and into Shal-Mari, probably performing in theaters (of course, they'd all be Kobal-run comedies, but I'm sure he's managing). > > Agreed; though for some reason I have an easier time picturing a human > succeeding in Hades' bureaucratic politics than as a con-man in > Shal-mari. It seems like they could achieve a measure of power more > easily in Hades (which I see as Stalin's Russia during the Great > Purge) than in Shal-mari (which I picture as horror-movie Las Vegas on > a bad acid trip). > The humans don't need to be con-men. I'm sure some at least try to get by as actors, cooks, dealers, hookers, etc.... Probably not as successful as demons in most cases, but some manage. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:17:30 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Names of God Yeah. The Kabbalah is my biggest source for names. For theurgy in general actually. Thanks a lot for your help. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Walton To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:13 PM Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Names of God > > I don't know about the secret names, but there are a number of names > that are used in the Old Testament. These wouldn't be common knowledge > unless one is a practicing Jew (and maybe not even then -- I don't know > what they teach in Hebrew school). Some examples: > > Jehovah-rophe/Jehovah-rapha -- "the God that heals" > El-shaddai -- lit. "the breasted one;" applied to God as provider > Elohim (yes, just like the Choir of angels) -- "the Lord." > Technically, the Choir should be referred to as Bene Elohim, "children > of the Lord." > Jehovah-nisi (not sure about the spelling on this one) -- "the Lord my > banner" > Adonai -- see Elohim > > For more esoteric stuff, you might try the Kaballah. > > ===== > Michael Walton, #9805-068 > "Laugh and the world laughs with you. > Snore and you sleep alone." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. > http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:15:09 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Very good analysis, Charles. You know, this raises an interesting point. Has anyone skimmed through the various Servitor attunements to see what _other_ interesting insights they might give into Superior thought and behavior? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:20:50 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Sidekicks -- again - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Walton" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 9:10 PM Subject: IN> Sidekicks -- again > I had to get this out of my head - it was taking up too much disk > space. > > Catamitus > Balseraph of Lust > Demon of Masochism You know, there's something about having the Demon Prince of Lust's "sidekick" be a neglected, abused, insanely jealous stalker type be just so *appropriate*... - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:16:31 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> What *are* Songs? >> I think you're analyzing it a little much -- > >*grin* In real life I'm a technical author >and editor - I get paid to scrutinise, >nitpick, and generally "What _exactly_ does >this mean?" at people. IN isn't really designed for that sort of approach. The game system is pretty darn simple (though fairly sturdy if you treat it well) and the level of detail on game mechanics is usually not high (though the worldbuilding and characters can be very detailed indeed). >> all that stuff doesn't really mesh with their >> role in the game. If you have a player who asks, >> say it's ineffable and go from there. > >*chuckle* They'll ask all right, and I shall tell >them that it's Ineffable. Songs are pocket miracles. They don't _have_ to make sense, any more than Genesis, the Ten Plagues of Egypt, or the next-to-last five minutes of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" do. When your players start asking you nitsy-picky questions... like, say, "if the sound of my voice can go through the Song of Shields, and light can too, then how can it possibly stop a shockwave or a heat-flash"... you grin and tell 'em it's a miracle. A miracle! It's a miracle! IME, doing this a couple of times gets the message across. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:45:49 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Muir" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 8:15 PM Subject: Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? > > Very good analysis, Charles. > > You know, this raises an interesting point. Has anyone skimmed through the > various Servitor attunements to see what _other_ interesting insights they > might give into Superior thought and behavior? Well, Dominic becomes even more of the ultimate judge -- in addition to his own Seraph resonance (as if that wasn't *enough*...), he can directly perceive whether a celestial has dissonance (Malakite of Judgement), what kind and how much Discord they have (Ofanite of Judgement), whether or not they feel any guilt (Elohite of Judgement), and what a human's most deviant behavior is and how long ago they committed it (Mercurian of Judgement). His Master Of Law distinction also lets him detect any crime being committed within 10 yards times his Celestial Forces... which, given his Superior-ness, is probably a rather large radius indeed! Eli can recognize gifted individuals on sightand know their full potential with any skill he wishes to evaluate them for (Seraph of Creation), as well as knowing who created any item he holds and when they created it (Cherub of Creation). Gabriel can detect anyone who has committed almost *any* type of cruelty on sight (cumulative effect of her Seraph, Cherub, Elohite, Kyriotate, and Mercurian attunements)... and she takes Dissonance for failing to punish any one of them! (Poor Archangel. No *wonder* she's so tormented.) Jean has eidetic memory (Seraph of Lightning), is a lightning calculator (Vassal of Lightning), and can detect the cause of malfunction in any object or predict its malfunction a number of round equal to his Celestial Forces before it happens (Friend of the Illuminated). Incidentally, that last might explain why there are *never* any unplanned explosions in the Halls of Progress... they shut 'em down *before* they below up, when the boss hits the intercom to say "That reactor is going to melt down in precisely 87 seconds. SCRAM the pile immediately." Planned explosions, of course, are another matter entirely. *g* Jordi knows the intentions of any animal he sees (Vassal of Animals), is never attacked by wild beasts (Friend of Beasts), and knows at a glance how much a given human likes animals and how he tends to treat them (Master of the Creature Within). Which is probably why he *isn't* eviscerating every human he bumps into...just the really cruel ones. Laurence can detect whether or not the foes he engages are ultimately on the side of good or evil, by their motives (Seraph of the Sword). His natural Malakite resonance lets him read a foe's honor, and his Malakite of the Sword attunement lets him do it better than any other Malakite Superior. His Vassal of the Sword distinction lets him remain serious under *any* provocation and judge the seriousness of others, and his Master of the Armies of God distinction lets him shut down any debate just by saying "NO." No wonder he's Commander of the Host. Because in actuality, he's ListAdmin Of The Seraphim Council -- the person who has to remain cool no matter what, and who has the job of determining when a given conversation has Gone Too Far And Just Plain Needs To Be Stopped, Finished Or Not. *veg* Marc can determine what price someone is willing to pay for something (Seraph of Trade), the fair market value of any item he touches (Elohite of Trade), how much a given item *really* means to someone (Malakite of Trade), and how much money a given person has received in the past months (# of months = his Celestial Forces) and what they did to earn it. (Mercurian of Trade). Plus, he can once per day know exactly what the other party hopes and intends over the long run to achieve by making a deal with him (Vassal of Trade), and can discover any hidden unfairness or escape clause in any proposed deal (Friend of the Shareholders). Those last two must make Lilith *really* frustrated whenever she tries to deal with him... *g* Novalis can see the degree of love or hate between any two people *within line of sight* (Vassal of Flowers), and can calm an irrational individual or smooth over small misunderstandings even though resisting subjects get a contest of Will (Master of Peace). You know, Novalis could *really* stand to have her own equivalent of the Mercurian of War attachment -- maybe all that idealism is actually getting *in* the way at times, as you can't judge the price of peace if you don't believe that peace actually has a price... OK, that last one is *really* out in Wild Speculation Land, admitted... And Yves... well, kee-ripes. Yves knows whatever the DM bloody well *wants* him to know, past present future and alternate timelines all in one, no rules mechanics required. *g* - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:54:19 -0800 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> The inevitable Halloween question. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maurice Lane > > Anybody dressing up as their favorite Choir / Band / > > Superior / whatnot? Well... I suppose you could say I'm Eli right now. Cheers, Ryan, decked out as a humourous dickensian stereotype (ie ragpicker) with scarves and vests and a funny cabby-type hat and a burlap sack and a dingy cigarette behind one ear. yay. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:24:51 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Superiors and opposing words >I'm multifunctional. I note so. >Your assertion that Lilith could somehow appreciate this Angel of >Emancipation is poppycock. Lilith is Freedom, and when you threaten to take >some of her Word away, you are essentially taking her Freedom away. That's >a double-whammy. >Emancipation is almost identical to Freedom; the main different is >Emancipation is freeing, while Freedom is the state of being free. Actually I tend to disagree with this is a major part of her word though certainly exists.....and an important word it's not I think nearly as important as one thinks. Lilith certainly likes to free people who are in bondage, whether in bondage to prisons or underneath tyrannical dictators....or good ones. However the fact remains that her word I think is much more expanive than freeing. It's the state of freedom to do, say, and act however you want thus it covers as some have said "Anarchy", "No laws", The choice of Fate vs. Destiny (though I think her word only gains power if you choose Fate and no matter what people say...no people are tricked into their fates-she's not the 3rd Avatar IMG). I liken it to (sorry David) David Edenstein's work on the Angels of Cities. Both Angels are diametrically opposed at princible....the Angel of Cities wants to have futuretopia cities that are clean, safe, and fun to be around while the Demon of Cities wants something extremely unpleasant instead...crime ridden dystopias. However both of them are going to oppose the idea of a demon or angel promoting that cities are places that are dark, horrofic, blights on the Earth (even if one city is). Lilith thus might dislike the idea in princible of an Angel of Emancipation when the essence should be going to a Demon of Emancipation (specifically a free Lilim in her service). However Lilith would note that people newly freed are waiting to use that freedom in some useful way.... And thus can be geased perhaps into doing something... (Hence why he's an annoyance to be destroyed but not the end of the world I believe to Lilith, also why I see the Angel of Emancipation viewing her as the Embodiment of everything he fights against....she subverts what Emancipation is to be ABOUT while he promotes an area of her word but not one she controls). >Fire-Prevention and Fire? What? Peaceful Death? Huh? Chess and The Game? >Mischief and... and what? Cannabas? (Whoever named that Angel (Angel? >What?) should be shot.) Peace? So? Culinary Arts? Are you aiming at >Gluttony? Well true these are poor examples. The angel of Fire prevention to Belialites is a walking target (YEAH PREVENT THIS FATSO!) Peaceful Death (DEATH ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE PEACEFUL! SAMINGA ISN'T PEACEFUL! KILL HIM!) The Angel of Marajuana (Big controversy over there being an angel of this...one I agree with being against the most underestimated drug in Fleurity's power base...however the idea of Fleurity disagreeing with this mythical angels...actually i stand corrected, he would oppose the legalization of drugs on ever momment...not because he'd lose business...on the contrary I think he'd gain quite a bit...but because he is a control freak and the drug market needs to be under his thumb...wow this is a long post) Peace (Baal would stack her with Novalis as "Useless obstructions on the field of battle) Culinary Arts (Yes I think Haagenti would view such a big annoyance....or wonder if he might taste good) >I have to make half-a-dozen logical leaps to make *any* of those work on the >scale Emancipation does for Freedom, and even then I'm left standing in a >dazed state of confusion, which, quite frankly, doesn't surprise me in the >slightest. I failed then and am sorry. >FLAMING ON THE LIST WILL GET ME KICKED OFF IT. Sorry beth for the accenting. I forget I'm not in debate class. However Administrator mine you don't have to worry...I don't bear Ben any ill will for his interpretation and I think it's opening some fascinating discussion as he raises some very real points about the nature of Superiors and what they do to those who hold words similar to their own. I appreciate his insight. I'll keep the volume down. Oh and to make up for it. FLAMING ON THE LIST WILL GET ME KICKED OFF IT FLAMING ON THE LIST WILL GET ME KICKED OFF IT FLAMING ON THE LIST WILL GET ME KICKED OFF IT FLAMING ON THE LIST WILL GET ME KICKED OFF IT (admittadly it was cut and paste but it's the thought that counts) I apologize. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:27:02 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:26:21 -0500From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A love that would always Die.... heheh I loved someone's proposal that Saminga deserved to have a love interest in Hell and looking at the man, it's my opinion that Saminga of all the Princes is the one most likely to fall in love. So I'd thought I'd get the courtly love thing going with this piece of fiction. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:43:01 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Yipe! Sorry about that, guys: my computer went nuts somehow. :( What I was GOING to say that was: nice vignette, Charles... and nowhere near what I'm planning. I must be particularly insane lately. Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 08:33:40 -0800 From: "Glenn Brown" Subject: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker I agree that the fact that Michael has his own Mercurian of War attunement makes a big difference in how he is portrayed *now*. But unless I am mistaken, Michael could not have "looked into Lucifer's eyes" and used this attunement when the War broke out in Heaven. Because Michael did not receive the Word of War until *after* he had defeated Lucifer. I wonder if maybe, if he had had the attunement before the War began, would things have gone differently? It's often easier to achieve a diplomatic solution before the violence starts than it is afterwards. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:39:25 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 01:29:17 GMT From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? >From Michael's writeup in the basic rules >(hardcover), p. 131 >======Mercurians >Michael's Mercurians are his only diplomats. They >know the price of peace - -- what, if anything, will >resolve a conflict between any two people they >have met.====== >The thought never struck me before, but today I was >walking along and suddenly it just hit me -- Michael >didn't just invent this attunement, he *has* it. >*Personally.* (A Superior has all of his Choir and >Servitor attunements, as per GMG.) That's ... very, very interesting. I'm going to have to think about the implications of that one for a while. Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:57:29 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> The inevitable Halloween question. Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:34:00 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The inevitable Halloween question. > ----- Original Message -----> From: Maurice Lane > > Anybody dressing up as their favorite Choir / Band /> > Superior / whatnot? > No way am I dressing like Zadkiel. I can't bake >cookies and I look awful in a dress. Plus, having the blood of the faithless constantly dripping from your hands would be unhygenic. :) Moe PS It was a _quibble_. A quibble, fer cry out loud. Phbbthh. :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:51:04 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Malakite of War IST Flowers? (was re: Michael, the Peacemaker?) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 9:45 PM Subject: Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? [snip] > [...] You know, Novalis could *really* stand > to have her own equivalent of the Mercurian of War attachment -- maybe all > that idealism is actually getting *in* the way at times, as you can't judge > the price of peace if you don't believe that peace actually has a price... > OK, that last one is *really* out in Wild Speculation Land, admitted... I've had a character concept kicking around in the back of my head for a while -- a Malakite of War IST Flowers. What stalled it was this... a) I could figure out a reason why *he* wanted to do this -- he'd come to the private conclusion that the best way for Heaven to win the war was for some of the political gaps on the Seraphim Council to be hurdled and for there to be better overall cooperation between different words, and the only way he could see for his un-Distincted un-Word-bound self to start working towards this goal was to start gathering valuable experience at how it feels to work with vastly different types of Servitors. b) And I could figure out why Michael -- even old, axe-brained, thug-caricature Michael -- would allow this -- "You want to work with *who*? Doing *what*? Ick! OK, fine, getouttahere before your softiness infects somebody else. Don't hurry back." c) But I couldn't figure out why Novalis would *take* a Malakite of War, even if it's just IST -- until I thought of this. If this Malakite had bought the Mercurian of War attunement (it's not restricted), then that attunement would be *extremely* useful to her Servitors and her Word... even if it came attached to what is *usually* one of the single most violent Choir/Archangel combinations in Heaven. (As to how he can possibly stand working under Flowers' restrictions -- well, he's trying to explore new ways of doing things, and two... if Novalis *orders* him to play within her rules of "no unnecessary violence", which she almost certainly would, then even though he's not bound by her dissonance conditions he *does* have the "if it's my choice" portion of his Malakite Oath triggered, so no dissonance for *not* immediately smiting the evil.) Somebody else can do the writeup if they want. All I have so far is a signature quote: "It is good that war should be so terrible, lest we grow fond of it." -- yes, I know that's Robert E. Lee, but this Malakite took it to heart. He doesn't want to abandon the word of War... he still believes that the fight must go on and that we must Never Give Up... he's just wondering if he couldn't help Michael's people fight *better* if he learned how to be their ambassador, sort of, to different Words... - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:56:49 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 > >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:42:00 -0400 >From: "Charles Phipps" >Subject: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors >Magog, the Archangel of Fortitude who brought his entire servant base with >him really. >While some might say he was a servant of David I say he was a minor >Archangel like Christopher 'some' includes his writeup in FT. >Also recall alot of everyone (angels and man to God) is formulated by our >relationships to others and conecievably if unlikely there is the >possibility of a Domino effect.> >If Yves falls so surely will Dominic>If Gabrielle falls so will likely >Zadkiel and Khalid>If David falls so might Christopher...>If Michael falls >watch Laurence hit like a stone.>If Novalis falls, watch everyone in >heaven go "WHAT THE HELL" Only if you assume that Archangels have the same personalities as sheep. Given that they are continually arguing with each other, and have all lost friends/servitors to Hell, I think that most would keep fighting no matter what happened. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:08:28 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Walker" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 > > > > >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:42:00 -0400 > >From: "Charles Phipps" > >Subject: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors > >Magog, the Archangel of Fortitude who brought his entire servant base with > >him really. > >While some might say he was a servant of David I say he was a minor > >Archangel like Christopher > 'some' includes his writeup in FT. > > >Also recall alot of everyone (angels and man to God) is formulated by our > >relationships to others and conecievably if unlikely there is the > >possibility of a Domino effect.> > >If Yves falls so surely will Dominic>If Gabrielle falls so will likely > >Zadkiel and Khalid>If David falls so might Christopher...>If Michael falls > >watch Laurence hit like a stone.>If Novalis falls, watch everyone in > >heaven go "WHAT THE HELL" > Only if you assume that Archangels have the same personalities as sheep. > Given that they are continually arguing with each other, and have all lost > friends/servitors to Hell, I think that most would keep fighting no matter > what happened. Well, there's a difference between losing a friend/servitor and losing a trusted mentor, somebody you regarded as your all-around superior, the shoulder you came to cry on when *you* were feeling doubts. I mean, if Yoda suddenly turned to the Dark Side, that would really shake Luke up, ya know? And while Laurence can't Fall, being a Malakite -- Laurence *can* have a sudden crisis of confidence. "Oh, my Lord... the being that I could never defeat, that humbled me with ease in our first duel, that I've been wondering for the past 13 centuries how I could ever hope to fill the giant-sized boots he left behind... he's now the other side's general? I am *SO* dead.... dead, lost, crunched, wiped, history, good-bye, see ya, I'm *TOAST*..." Of course, if Michael falls, the discussion is pointless. Because Michael would announce his Falling by butchering several of his former compatriots on his way out of the Pearly Gates. And then come back the next day leading a demon army [1] and butcher the place. *eg* In my own opinion, Michael Falling = Game Over. YMMV. *eg* - -- Chuckg [1] Where's Baal, you may ask? [2] If Dark Michael arrives in Hell, Baal will have two choices -- submit or die. And since he ain't likely to submit... well, if Michael doesn't kill him then Baal will kill himself, out of sheer raving frustration at having been upstaged and displaced by Michael... AGAIN! *g* [2] The hypothetical scenarios where Dark Michael arrives in Hell, immediately mounts Lucifer's head on a stick, and then proclaims himself King Of Hell have already been discussed so I won't rehash them again. But they *were* highly amusing. *eg* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:08:40 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Walker" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 > > > > >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:42:00 -0400 > >From: "Charles Phipps" > >Subject: IN> Kobal on Fallen Superiors > >Magog, the Archangel of Fortitude who brought his entire servant base with > >him really. > >While some might say he was a servant of David I say he was a minor > >Archangel like Christopher > 'some' includes his writeup in FT. > > >Also recall alot of everyone (angels and man to God) is formulated by our > >relationships to others and conecievably if unlikely there is the > >possibility of a Domino effect.> > >If Yves falls so surely will Dominic>If Gabrielle falls so will likely > >Zadkiel and Khalid>If David falls so might Christopher...>If Michael falls > >watch Laurence hit like a stone.>If Novalis falls, watch everyone in > >heaven go "WHAT THE HELL" > Only if you assume that Archangels have the same personalities as sheep. > Given that they are continually arguing with each other, and have all lost > friends/servitors to Hell, I think that most would keep fighting no matter > what happened. Well, there's a difference between losing a friend/servitor and losing a trusted mentor, somebody you regarded as your all-around superior, the shoulder you came to cry on when *you* were feeling doubts. I mean, if Yoda suddenly turned to the Dark Side, that would really shake Luke up, ya know? And while Laurence can't Fall, being a Malakite -- Laurence *can* have a sudden crisis of confidence. "Oh, my Lord... the being that I could never defeat, that humbled me with ease in our first duel, that I've been wondering for the past 13 centuries how I could ever hope to fill the giant-sized boots he left behind... he's now the other side's general? I am *SO* dead.... dead, lost, crunched, wiped, history, good-bye, see ya, I'm *TOAST*..." Of course, if Michael falls, the discussion is pointless. Because Michael would announce his Falling by butchering several of his former compatriots on his way out of the Pearly Gates. And then come back the next day leading a demon army [1] and butcher the place. *eg* In my own opinion, Michael Falling = Game Over. YMMV. *eg* - -- Chuckg [1] Where's Baal, you may ask? [2] If Dark Michael arrives in Hell, Baal will have two choices -- submit or die. And since he ain't likely to submit... well, if Michael doesn't kill him then Baal will kill himself, out of sheer raving frustration at having been upstaged and displaced by Michael... AGAIN! *g* [2] The hypothetical scenarios where Dark Michael arrives in Hell, immediately mounts Lucifer's head on a stick, and then proclaims himself King Of Hell have already been discussed so I won't rehash them again. But they *were* highly amusing. *eg* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:13:39 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1881 Whoops, sorry about the double post. E-mail client bug. Bad e-mail client! Bad, baaaaad e-mail client! *smacks program with rolled-up documentation* - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:22:04 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1884 > Though I suspect that Kronos lends some of them out to >the Game for 'interrogation' purposes. Which is where they _truly_ shine. Very likely; also many will have defected to Furfur - his dissonance conditions & Balseraph attunement would be perfect for a Bal-seraph. Possibly Kronos & Furfur will end up swapping attunements for their Bal-seraphs. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 00:52:13 -0800 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker At 08:33 AM 10/31/00 -0800, you wrote: >I agree that the fact that Michael has his own Mercurian of War attunement >makes a big difference in how he is portrayed *now*. But unless I am >mistaken, Michael could not have "looked into Lucifer's eyes" and used this >attunement when the War broke out in Heaven. Because Michael did not receive >the Word of War until *after* he had defeated Lucifer. I wonder if maybe, if >he had had the attunement before the War began, would things have gone >differently? It's often easier to achieve a diplomatic solution before the >violence starts than it is afterwards. > I disagree. Considering the Attunements of War were all essentially created by Michael from the abilities conferred by his Word- which he himself helped to define- I think we have to assume that Michael had these qualities before the Fall. Michael is -NOT- stupid. (David maybe, but not Michael.) Michael is the greatest of the Seraphim, a creature of truth and majesty... and, in his initial nature, great gentleness. I see Michael as the ultimate pacifist; the kind who will not fight unless war is unavoidable, and will seek the swiftest and most -permanent- end to that war. Michael promotes pride and, to a lesser extent, glory, but I believe his first priority is always VICTORY, and that he does not have any love for War in and of itself. This is what makes Michael so perfect for the word of War; not just that he is powerful and mighty and loyal to God, but that he knows when to fight and when not to- something which can be said of very, very few beings. Redneck (yes, I like Michael, why?) Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:12:18 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1890 At 7:02 PM -0500 10/28/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: >From: "William J. Keith" >[snip] >> And while I'm on the subject of making weird celestials... has Hell ever >> tried to kidnap a Malakite before he took his oaths? [...] plus, it's possible that a part of >fledging as a Malakite is taking the oaths, at least the first two oaths >that are standard to all Malakim. I used this as a major plot device in my game last year; a detailed description is floating around INC somewhere. The key was getting the PC Malakite to agree to father a Malakite child with a Habbalite (Lilith was the Superior involved) and then and then Habbalite & Lilith shooting through. My player was most annoyed when he was challenged to a duel by his great, great, great,great grandchild the following day. As the Habbalite was now a Princess, one of the compulsory oaths for Hell's Malakim was 'Slay any who deny the angelic nature of the Habbalah'. A point if you do something similar; angelic rites cannot be used in Hell, while demonic rites give angels dissonance. To have operational Hell's Malakim you need to provide them with ethereal rites. (I had my new Princess recruit Set). Also, Superiors can strip Malakite Oaths. Think about it. I did. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:23:50 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1891 > There is, in fact, an IN:NWO (In Nomine: New World Order) project that >was> going on for a while. With Superiors as Illuminati and such groups >as> Cherubim of Janus or Lilim of Haagenti. I don't have a URL, but at >least> one person on this list was active there (Rev?) and perhaps they >know of the> current status. I still think an IN CCG would work much better using Jyhad/VTES rules than INWO. Truly. - - -David (the first expansion set in YEARS is coming out this week! Yay!) Let's hold of the celebrations until we see it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:32:21 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 Bevan Thomas wrote: > However, I've always been found of Lilith (Biblical or In > Nomine-ish), [...] A nit: She isn't really biblical. She doesn't really show up as a distinct literary figure until the Middle Ages, though she seems to be based on some Mesopotamian demonology. Earl A counter-nit: Actually she IS in the Bible (although generally her name/title is mis-translated as night-monster) and was well-established in Jewish folklore long before Christianity. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:40:57 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Technically, I think Novalis would be the ultimate pacifist. Do not fight period. Like the Buddhists who would rather die then fight. Now Michale might be the more realistic and practical pacifist.... - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kris Overstreet To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 12:52 AM Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker > > I see Michael as the ultimate pacifist; the kind who will not fight unless > war is unavoidable, and will seek the swiftest and most -permanent- end to > that war. Michael promotes pride and, to a lesser extent, glory, but I > believe his first priority is always VICTORY, and that he does not have any > love for War in and of itself. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:44:47 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1893 >From: Michael Walton >Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: Names of God >El-shaddai -- lit. "the breasted one;" applied to God as provider Are you sure of that translation? I've come across it elsewhere as "Lord of the Mountains". Moderately important, as I was hoping to name The Angel of Mountains 'Shaddai'. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:55:45 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: IN> meaning of names Me again. Seeing if I can mooch some more research off you guys for my comic Demonbane. In there, I have 7 Archangels and 9 Demon Princes (plus a smattering of equally powerful angels and demons who don't actually qualify as archs or dps for various reasons). The archangels are: Michael (stone and war), Gabriel (communication and air), Raphael (water, healing, and knowledge), Uriel (fire and sun), Azrael (death and darkness), Hayyael (animals and plants), and Israfel (muse). Plus there's Metatron speaking as the mouthpiece of God. In Hell, we have: Asmodeus (the regent and supreme bureacrat), Azazel (the general and lord of traitors), Beelzebub (destruction and decay), Decarabia (cruelty and torture), Mephistopheles (evil magic and knowledge), Belial (lies and trickery), Marchosias (wrath and rage), Mammon (sloth, greed, and gluttony), and Rosier (lust). And Lucifer as the big boss, Kobal as the court jester, and Lilith wandering around. I've found out the meanings for all the names of these guys except for the following: Lilith, Kobal, Decarabia, Marchosias, Rosier, Hayyael, and Metatron. Also does anyone know the meanings of the following choirs of angels?: Tharsus, Hayyoth, and Kyriotates. Thanks. -Bevan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:00:27 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1893 >With that particular Mercurian of War attunement cranking at Superior >levels, Michael *knows* when peace is possible. [2] Even if he doesn't >particularly *want* to know, even if he isn't interested in looking for it >at all, he doesn't get a choice and he doesn't have to look -- the knowledge >is shunted directly into his forebrain right at the start. You've pointed out some important stuff, but there is two important points that you've missed: 1)Choir clash: Michael is a Seraph; the Mercurian 'eh, it's lying, so what' doesn't work. All too often Michael will know that he could avoid unnecessary deaths if he lied. This is probably one reason why he's so grumpy. And so good at keeping secrets. 2) Michael knows the price of peace; this will give him insights into the worst aspects of people he deals with. Consider throwing these at PC Mercurians of War "you can avoid combat with him by helping him obliterate the town/hospital/school", "by grovelling to him and saying he's the greatest", "by helping him impress his gung-ho friends some other way", "by not noticing the bodies around the corner", "by giving him something else to hurt". Finally, I don't think Michael would want to ignore this info; he he did he'd change the attunement. The thing is, you fight a war to win it; deep in his heart Michael wants every war won; every war over. I can see Michael sitting back after armageddon with a beer, relaxing in Heaven, swapping stories with Eli - not for long of course, just an eon or two..... ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1894 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.