From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 1 08:58:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04839 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:58:07 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA16557 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:56:49 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:56:49 -0600 Message-Id: <200011011456.IAA16557@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1895 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1895 In this digest: IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- History IN> Superiors3--"Now We Remain"? IN> Prince of Sloth writeup IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- Miscellaneous Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) Re: IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- Miscellaneous Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Re: IN> Prince of Sloth writeup Re: IN> meaning of names Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker IN> Has this come up before? Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Re: IN> Superiors and opposing words Re: IN> Has this come up before? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:56:10 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- History MESERACH Demon Prince of Sloth "The World is running down, giving up, burning out, failing. Why bother?" History Meserach, a servant of Destiny, was the proudest of the Cherubim. He knew that he was not the strongest of that Choir, nor the wisest, but still he glowed with pride. For Meserach held the Word of Patience, that most Cherubic of the virtues. How then could he not be proud, who had been chosen as examplar of his Choir? Too proud, perhaps. For when humans appeared, Meserach was among those angels who were less than wholly pleased with God's handiwork. For millenia he had been telling his fellow celestials, from feckless Ofanim to flighty Mercurians, to wait and to be Patient, that God had wonders yet to unfold. And the purpose of his Patience turned out to be... this? A band of dirty, quarrelsome half-apes? Surely this was some sort of joke. Even so, it was in the poorest of taste. For not only were humans inherently contemptible, but they seemed like a deadly threat to Meserach's Word as well. After all, how could creatures doomed to die in a few decades ever have true Patience? If these monkeys were to replace angels as the crown of God's creation, then what would become of patient Meserach? The proud Cherub thus required little persuasion to join the Rebellion; he felt betrayed by God, and outraged at the prospect of a human-centric universe. He was one of Lucifer's earliest supporters, and legend has it that when the Rebellion failed, he was the first angel to "dive" from Heaven in pursuit of the falling Lightbringer. Some say that Lucifer's subsequent bequest of the Word of Sloth may have been an ironic commentary on the fallen Cherub's eagerness... But more likely it was cold calculation on the Lightbringer's part. The Fall had congealed Meserach's attitude towards humanity from lip-curling contempt to icy hatred. Only Beleth loathed us more intensely, and even the Princess of Fear didn't feel the same degree of *personal* affront at mankind's very existence. So it's likely that Lucifer granted a Word calculated to let the new Djinn hurt humanity as much as possible. And he did. Meserach took a very, very expansive view of his Word. Under him, Sloth was about laziness only in the sense that Novalis' Word was about gardening or David's about rocks. "Sloth", in Meserach's view, covered every willing failure to live up to potential, whether physical, spiritual or intellectual. Waste, carelesness, negligence, ignorance... refusing to think for oneself, blind adherence to tradition, apathy, giving in to despair... all of these were a part of Meserach's Word. Meserach was happiest with humans in our original state -- dirty, ignorant and short-lived -- but he was flexible enough to adapt to changing times. Did mankind develop cities and civilization? Meserach would work to give us god-kings, bureacracy and centuries of cultural stagnation. Writing and literacy? Let a handful of priests and scribes keep it to themselves, using sacred texts to legitimize pointless tradition and unjust social orders. Organized religion? Faith was a wonderful substitute for thought; the Church could be used to numb mankind and keep the Dark Ages going for centuries. And so on... The Prince of Sloth did not particularly care for wars and invasions. He liked corrupt, aging, decadent empires, as stagnant and bureaucratic as possible, and tried to keep them that way. He was particularly fond of the last centuries of Rome, and kept the traditions of the late Empire alive in his Principality long after it had disappeared from Earth. Had he lasted long enough, he would have surely have appreciated the Habsburgs, 19th century China, and the Soviet Union. The Word of Sloth Sloth was much more than just sleeping and procrastination. Any failure to live up to potential, neglect of duty, or willing refusal to take the correct but difficult path came under Meserach's Word. "Sloth" could even involve energetic activity sometimes. A student who neglected his studies to drink, game, and carouse would be guilty of Sloth; so, too, would a peasant who spent a day in backbreaking toil instead of using a simple labor-saving device because "the old ways are best", or a talented poet cranking out doggerel to please the masses. Meserach himself showed this principle in action. Although he would always give the impression of being desperately short of sleep (and dangerously ill-tempered because of it) he was actually quite diligent in promoting his Word. No Prince worked harder to hold humanity back and to tear down our highest glories. With the obsessive malevolence of a Djinn, Meserach strove to break humanity on the wheel of our own apathy, neglect and incompetence. Like Beleth, he loathed and despised us... but where the Princess of Nightmares wants to drive humanity mad, Sloth merely wanted to show us up for the worthless, stupid, lazy animals that we really were. Like Andrealphus, he used our basest urges against us... but where the Prince of Lust enjoys his work, Sloth felt only a sort of hateful, sullen vindictiveness. And like Baal, Meserach wanted to be proven right... but where the Prince of the War dreams of standing before God's throne in glory, Sloth would have been satisfied with the simpler pleasure of muttering, "Told you so!" Meserach instinctively understood the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Universe was gradually running down, and the Symphony would eventually go silent; given time, Sloth would eventually conquer all. This gave him a distinctly inflated sense of his own importance. Meserach believed that he was the embodiment of a universal principle, one inevitably destined to overcome all lesser Words. Lust would fade, wars would end, flowers wither and fire burn down to ash. In the end, all things would grow weary, stale, and flat, and only Sloth would remain. This conviction led both to arrogance and to a perverse sort of optimism... one that proved, in the end, wholly unjustified. (It's curious to note that Haagenti sometimes speaks of his Word in almost exactly the same way: "Only Hunger lasts!") An Obvious Problem with the Word of Sloth Meserach's Word had one other consequence. Unlike, say, Andrealphus, the Prince of Sloth could not simultaneously indulge his Word and serve it too. And he was intelligent enough to realize that Hell's politics would not allow him to spend his days in Slothful self indulgence. His Word and Djinnish apthy pulled him one way; his pride, hatred for humanity, self-preservation and Djinnish obsessiveness pulled him the other. Meserach's solution was to work maniacally, obsessively, hatefully 90% of the time... and then to spend the other 10% or so motionless, contemplating his Word. This could involve Djinnishly peculiar diversions (watching water drip veeery slowly into a pot, or a small insect bump its head endlessly against a pane of glass), but more often it consisted of simply sitting in his throne room with the lights turned low, staring at a wall. Servitors who disturbed him at these times were likely to be Force-stripped on the spot, unless they had a *very* good reason. These "naps" allowed the Prince of Sloth to contain the conflict between his Word and his duties, but they didn't really resolve it. When active, he'd constantly be fighting the urge to give in to Sloth; when resting, he'd be nagged by the thought that the humans were scampering around on Earth getting things done. The net result was to give Meserach the celestial equivalent of chronic insomnia, continuously for ten thousand years or so. Which did nothing for his temper... Appearance Meserach typically manifested as a slender, richly dressed, rather dissipated looking young male. His exact appearance varied, but always included burning, bloodshot eyes and a sneer; think of Asmodeus' younger brother, hung over and sleepless after a long weekend in Shal-Mari. Meserach had a variety of favored forms -- a Shang dynasty mandarin with foot-long fingernails, an Indian rajah in a palanquin -- but after about 250 AD, he usually appeared in the guise of one of the later Roman Emperors. Indeed, it was rumored that some Emperors (Caligula, Caracalla) were Soldiers of Sloth, or Servitors, or even Meserach himself in deep disguise... Meserach's manner varied between grimly humorless and heavily sarcastic, but waspish ill-temper was never far from the surface, and the sneer never left his face. Only Baal was more openly arrogant, and not even the Prince of the War treated his Servitors with such naked contempt. Meserach had always considered himself something special, even as an angel. As a Prince, he was insufferable. Only his laissez-faire attitude towards his Servitors made him remotely tolerable to work for. (Oddly enough, Meserach could drop the sneer and be downright charming when dealing with angels. And no Prince but Andrealphus was as effective in getting angels to neglect their duty, Trip and Fall.) Servitors Meserach was not the best Prince to work for. He treated all his Servitors, even his Dukes, with contempt. He was always arrogant and unpleasant, and his general air of sour distraction could easily veer into peevish malice or murderous rage. Take the worst boss you've ever had, deprive him of sleep for a couple of days, hit him with a massive hangover and then give him the power to maim or kill you with a wave of his hand, and you'll have some idea of the Prince of Sloth's management style. Furthermore, Meserach's obsessive focus on humanity left him little attention to spare for organization and discipline. His Dukes and Barons ran a dozen quarrelsome fiefdoms within his Principality. Lower-level Servitors were treated badly even by Hell's standards; petty tyranny prevailed where anarchy did not. Their Prince couldn't be bothered to care. As long as his servants kept hurting mankind, he didn't give a damned soul what they did to each other. This led to a great deal of inefficiency and disaffection, and fatally handicapped Sloth in the final battle against Gluttony. The chaos in Meserach's Principality also led to the Game being called in on a regular basis. Unique among the Princes, Meserach _did not care_. If the Game was willing to do his dirty work, why should it bother him? In fact, he regularly handed servants over to Asmodeus -- because they were incompetent, because they annoyed him, or just because. On the plus side, Meserach did not stint his Servitors on Attunements, Rites, and other rewards; if he didn't exactly encourage hard work, he was willing to acknowledge it. Furthermore, no Prince sent as high a proportion of his Servitors to Earth, and none sponsored as many demons for Words. Overall, then, serving Sloth could be tolerable or even pleasant for demons of Captain rank or higher. For imps, gremlins, and the newly fledged, though, it was a Hell within Hell; senior demons would relentless tyrannize them and steal all credit for their work, and they could expect little sympathy from their Prince. One gremlin, in particular, never forgot or forgave this treatment... [continued] ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 2000 08:03:04 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> Superiors3--"Now We Remain"? just wanted to say that i got my copy of Superiors 3: Hope and Prophecy today (THANKS, CASCA !!!), and am thoroughly enjoying it. i've read through the Gabriel section twice, am skimming back and forth through Blandine, Khalid, and Yves, and noting various pieces of artwork (i'm especially enamoured of pages 20, 40, 68, 130, 138, and all four of the full-page spreads) and worthy sidebars (the Inges were fascinating; pages 72 and 122 being particularly helpful; Moe, what did you think of the Kyriotate Angel of the American Dream?). i have a querry regarding the illustration on page twenty: there is a group of people telling a story overlaid on the lyrics sheet of a song (perhaps "hymn" is a better term) called, "Now We Remain," which purports to being based on 2 Corinthians, 1 John, and 1 Timothy. if anyone has the lyrics entire, or can direct me to a book containing the entire song, i'd be most grateful :) -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:57:40 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Prince of Sloth writeup Okay, here's my first draft ofthe extended writeup on the late, unlamented Prince of Sloth -- presented in two parts, so as not to risk List-Dissonance. I'd really welcome comments on this one, as it feels not quite finished, yet. I like this version, but I keep thinking that something's missing. Thanks in advance, Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:58:40 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- Miscellaneous [continued] Words and Former Servitors Meserach was notorious for trying to aggressively expand his Word (a quality that he seems to have passed on to his "heir", Haagenti). The Prince of Sloth lost a centuries-long battle with Kobal over the word of Sarcasm (the laziest form of humor), and another with Malphas over Unthinking Bigotry. On the other hand, he managed to wrestle Decadence away from Andrealphus, and cleverly set up a prior claim on Bureaucracy before Asmodeus was quite aware of the Word's potential. Meserach had many powerful Words beneath him. Some of the more notable ones included Alcoholism, Apathy, Boredom, Blindly Following Orders, Bureaucracy, Carelessness, Cowardice, Decadence, Depression, Dissipation, Excuses, Fatigue, Giving Up, Ignorance, Lack of Self-Discipline, Laziness, Negligence, Pettiness, Procrastination, Slovenliness, Squalor, Taking the Easy Way Out, Tradition, Waste and Whining. Most of these Word-Bound died with him, but the Demon of Bureaucracy survived to become one of Asmodeus' Dukes, and the Demon of Excuses excused himself from the final battle and found refuge in the service of Malphas. Almost all of Meserach's other Words have long since been redistributed. Still, many former Lazies survive, mostly in the service of the Shal-Mari Princes, Fate and the Game. Unlike the former servitors of Mariel and Gebbeleth, the Sloths have little fellow-feeling, and often pretend not to recognize each other... Their attunements are still useful, though. Meserach's Fate ...was to be devoured by his former Servitory, Haagenti, soon after that Calabite had been given the Word of Gluttony. Many younger celestials believe that the Prince of Sloth perished in this manner because he was weak, or because he came to embody his Word too thoroughly. Not so. Meserach was a major Prince who had survived millenia of infernal politics and repeated assaults from Heaven while aggressively fighting to expand his Word. Unlike Mariel, he was neither mad nor Discordant. Indeed, he had been carrying on business as usual right up to the moment Haagenti came ravening across his frontier. Meserach's abrupt demise thus came as a profound shock to the Infernal hierarchy. In terms of today's Hell, it was as if (say) Furfur were to suddenly attack and destroy Andrealphus or Malphas. In retrospect, Meserach did have two major weaknesses. One was his sloppy treatment of his Servitors, and the other was his pride. Arrogant as any Balseraph, he alienated potential allies and dangerously underestimated his foes. In the end, this was probably the root cause of his demise: Meserach simply could not believe that a jumped-up gremlin could be a serious threat to him, and failed to respond effectively until it was too late. (Even so, many older demons still find it hard to believe that a non-Superior could have taken out a major Prince. There must, they whisper, there must have been more to it than that...) One other surprising aspect of Meserach's Fate was that he perished at the hands of a fellow Infernal. Several Archangels had been particularly hostile to him and actively planning his demise. Laurence, in particular, loathed Sloth as the rust on the sword of the human spirit, while Gabriel's feelings for him took a back burner only to her passionate hatred of Belial. Janus' feelings can easily be imagined, and merely mentioning Sloth's name could cause Jean to purse his lips. Even the relatively peaceful Mercurians, Marc and Eli, were willing to get violent with Meserach; his Word opposed theirs, and he did endless harm to their beloved humanity. Relations Meserach couldn't be bothered to ally himself with any other Princes, and his arrogance alienated most potential associates. Asmodeus seems to have had a certain chilly respect for him. Despite his messy lack of organization, the two Djinn shared a certain commonality of outlook, and the Prince of the Game appreciated a Superior who didn't constantly resist his scrutiny. Beleth shared his hatred of humanity, mad Mariel seemed to find him strangely congenial company, and the Princes of Disease and Corruption found that Meserach created fertile ground for them by spreading decadence and squalor. The war faction disliked Sloth's focus on humanity, his neglect of the conflict against Heaven, and his attitude in general. Kobal considered him a fantastic waste of comic potential, and Kronos seems to have viewed him with icy distaste... curious, given that many of their goals and methods were quite similar. Otherwise, most of Hell's Princes cared as little for Meserach as he for them. Allied: None Associated: Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Beleth, Makatiel, Mariel Neutral: Everyone else, except Hostile: Baal, Belial, Genubath, Kobal, Kronos Enemy: Haagenti (briefly) Andrealphus: Self-indulgence, decadence, distraction... we could work together. But he _would_ keep trying to poach Words from me, and I didn't like his attitude. No great loss. Asmodeus: He did good work. Most organizations are ultimately held together by inertia, and he understood this. And no other Prince ever allowed me so free a hand. Baal: Worthless. His Servitors were self-indulgent slackards, and he... [choking with indignation] he... thought... he... was... _my equal!_ Insufferable! I should have taken the time to kill him myself! Beleth: He understood hate. And fear of new things, and of failure, and of change. He brought the humans to me. We need more Princes like that. Belial: [snorts a flame] Loser! Haagenti: He tasted GOOOOOD! I only wish there'd been MORE OF HIM! Mmmmmm! Hahaha... Hey, you know, I think there's still a little piece of him stuck between these two back teeth. Come look. Really. Kobal: A classic! One of my best. I slay me... well, actually, I slew him. [snickers] Oh, the look on his face! It kept me giggling for years. Do you want to know what his last words were? Kronos: [thin-lipped smile] He met his Fate. Lilith: Well, freedom can mean choosing to do nothing sometimes... we did the occasional bit of business, but I Chose to keep a certain distance. He was pretty full of himself. Snappy dresser, though. Malphas: Sometimes I thought he almost _understood_. And his arrogance annoyed the others for centuries. Pity he's not still around, really. Nybbas: Who? Oh. Strictly History Channel, sonny. Saminga: He died. Everything dies. Valefor: His people were good at making watchmen go to sleep. And he did have a certain sour sense of style. There's no point in stealing from people who don't care, though. Rumors, Whispers and Plot Seeds - -- The Three Fates: Lucifer originally set _three_ Princes in opposition to Yves: Kobal, Meserach, and Mariel. Dark Humor, Sloth and Oblivion didn't always get along, but at the Lightbringer's command they worked together when it came to thwarting Destiny. But after the rise of Kronos, two of these three Princes met with unpleasant Fates... - -- You Are What You Eat?: There are some curious parallels between the Prince of Sloth and his successor. Both run relatively anarchic organizations, for instance, and both seek to aggressively expand their Words, often at the expense of good relations with other Princes. Is this just a coincidence, or did Haagenti actually end up with a couple of Meserach's Forces stuck to him? And, if so... - -- The Grigori: If any Princes had anything to do with the fall of the Grigori, Andrealphus and Meserach were by far the most obvious candidates. And Meserach actually claimed to have played a key role in corrupting that Choir! Who but Sloth could have turned them away from the stern path of duty, and towards self-indulgence and neglect? Prince Andre, on the other hand, has never had anything to say about the Grigori; questions on the subject have been deflected with a wink and a smirk. Could Meserach's boasting about the Grigori have played a part in his downfall? And if so, how... and why? - -- We'll Leave The Light On For You: Sloth is a powerful Word, but Lucifer has kept it to himself since Meserach's downfall; there hasn't been a Demon of Sloth for a thousand years. No one knows why, but one of the wilder explanations is that he's saving it... for an Archangel who has yet to Fall. Eli is the most obvious candidate, but one Servitor of Fate claims to have glimpsed a text that mentions *Gabriel*. - -- More Fun Than Watching Paint Dry: Somewhere in Perdition, in a grey plain of nondescript rubble that hasn't yet been "developed" by the Servitors of Nybbas, there's a wall. No roof, no other walls... just a solitary piece of masonry standing lonely among the desolate ruin. Except that this is no ordinary wall. This was the Prince of Sloth's favorite wall. It rises from the rubble that used to be his throne room, and it's the wall that Meserach most liked to stare blankly at when he was "resting". So it's a powerful relic of Sloth. Anyone who approaches the wall closely and looks at it must roll against his combined Celestial and Ethereal Forces, or fall into a catatonic state for *days* equal to his check digit. Removing him from the vicinity of the wall gives him a Will roll to snap out of it, but nothing else will help. The wall can be moved, with the right tools and a little effort. Nybbas would claim the wall as his property -- it's in his Principality, after all -- but he doesn't know it exists. Yet. And several other Princes would be interested in it: Vapula for research, Asmodeus for securing prisoners, Haagenti for a larder... - -- Reverse Engineering: It recently occurred to Vapula to wonder how much information about a Superior could be determined from examining attunements and Distinctions. The Genius Prince likes this idea a lot; besides the obvious military applications, it could also eventually give him new clues to the nature of God. But to do the research properly, he'd need a control group of celestials with attunements but no Superior. Angels are hard to come by, and the servants of Gebbeleth and Mariel tend to keep their heads down. Who does that leave? The subjects aren't likely to survive to the second round of grant applications, so former Servitors of Sloth might want to take jobs in the Far Marches right around now... - -- The Big Sleep: Haagenti ate *someone*, but it wasn't Meserach. The Prince of Sloth wanted to take a few centuries off... perhaps to contemplate his Word alone, perhaps for some darker purpose. So he faked his own death and departed for the far edge of the Symphony. Lucifer knows this (which is why the Word of Sloth has not been reassigned), but nobody else does. It cost him his Servitors? Like he ever cared about having Servitors. It weakened him? Sure, but a Prince pulls power from his Word, and humans are just as lazy and negligent as they ever were. He's been gone a thousand years? No big deal... he's a Djinn; they can hold their breath for that long. And when he comes back... * * * * * So, there he is. Comments, thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:26:55 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 Yeah, I didn't mean Bible. I meant Jewish-folklore. (near as I can tell, she was created to explain why God created Woman twice in Genesis). - ----- Original Message ----- From: James Walker To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:32 PM Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1892 > She isn't really biblical. She doesn't really show up as a > distinct literary figure until the Middle Ages, though she seems > to be based on some Mesopotamian demonology. > Earl > A counter-nit: > Actually she IS in the Bible (although generally her name/title is > mis-translated as night-monster) and was well-established in Jewish > folklore long before Christianity. > > > ------------------------------ Date: 1 Nov 2000 08:31:20 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Gebbeleth: Demon Prince of Secrets (Deceased, Background) On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:23:11 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 2:10 PM -0400 10/28/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >>>>Mariel, Princess of Oblivion, devoured by Haagenti. Band unknown, [...] >As Angel of Memory, shouldn't she have been a Seraph of Jean? I mean, >look at that Choir Attunement. was Jean even an Archangel at the time of the Fall??? -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:34:02 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- Miscellaneous Didn't Lucifer place Meserach as Janus' opposite number (energy and change vs. apathy and stagnation), and Mariel as one of Raphael's? Did they also work as Yves's opposite number? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Muir To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:58 PM Subject: IN> Meserach, Demon Prince of Sloth (deceased) -- Miscellaneous > -- The Three Fates: Lucifer originally set _three_ Princes in opposition > to Yves: Kobal, Meserach, and Mariel. Dark Humor, Sloth and Oblivion > didn't always get along, but at the Lightbringer's command they worked > together when it came to thwarting Destiny. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 02:31:43 -0800 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker At 11:40 PM 10/31/00 -0800, you wrote: >Technically, I think Novalis would be the ultimate pacifist. Do not fight >period. Like the Buddhists who would rather die then fight. Hardly. Novalis is anti-violence, but Michael wants a true and lasting peace... and is willing to do precisely what is needed to achieve it. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 04:13:18 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Prince of Sloth writeup At 2:57 AM -0400 11/1/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Okay, here's my first draft ofthe extended writeup on the late, unlamented >Prince of Sloth -- presented in two parts, so as not to risk >List-Dissonance. > >I'd really welcome comments on this one, as it feels not quite finished, >yet. I like this version, but I keep thinking that something's missing. > >Thanks in advance, On the first skim, I like it a lot. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:20:42 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> meaning of names I would recomend www.britannica.com, if you don't look it up yourself you'll never learn. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:23:14 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Michael isn't any sort of pacifist. Or if he is, then so is Baal who probably also is content not to fight unless it's 'necessary' -- because that's wasteful of resources. If you see the world through the eyes of War, then everything looks like a battle. You see everything in terms of conflicts to be either fought or resolved through diplomacy. You are _incapable_ of seeing things other than in those terms. ("You're either with me or against me!") If you see the world through the eyes of Trade, then everything looks like a business case. If you see the world through the eyes of Flowers, then what you see will be ... very different. You see nature's cycles very clearly and know that sometimes you have to prune back the dead bark so that something new will grow. You also know that sometimes you have to bend with the wind, and that small saplings can put out roots and grow into great trees, if given time and nuturing. You believe in nature, and even human nature. You believe that although some conflict may be inevitable, it is _not_ necessarily human nature to kill and destroy each other unless food/living quarters are in short demand, and one of your goals is to make sure that there is enough food to go around. You believe that only demonic influence (and yes, that of the more warlike superiors) has made men into the warring fools they can sometimes be. You would like the opportunity to teach them how to be truer to themselves. I'm sure Novalis wants the war to end and heaven to be victorious, but she also wants people to abjure violence, love each other, and work together to plant a seed of grass on every grain of sand. Michael wants them to fight evil, fight evil, and fight evil some more until there is nothing left to fight. Peace through superior firepower. And he doesn't know how to back down and he doesn't believe in compromise. >From: "Bevan Thomas" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:40:57 -0800 > >Technically, I think Novalis would be the ultimate pacifist. Do not fight >period. Like the Buddhists who would rather die then fight. > >Now Michale might be the more realistic and practical pacifist.... > jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 06:07:00 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Has this come up before? Umm, guys, if stuff from the corporeal plane can't show up on the celestial unless you wave a Magic Game Mechanics Wand over it... ...what precisely _are_ they eating in Hell? I mean, we know they have vegetables: there's a cafe where demons can torture them. Or do I really not want to know the answer?* Moe *OTOH, it's given me an idea for a particularly weird minor Prince. I just need a Word. Prince of... Slash-and-Burn? Not powerful enough? Prince of... Enclosure? To obscure. Prince of... Domestication? Lilith will routinely slap him around. Hmmm... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 06:46:21 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 00:52:13 -0800 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker >Michael is -NOT- stupid. (David maybe, but not >Michael.) I wouldn't go so far as to say that David's stupid... just hot-blooded, bloodthirsty and prone towards action before thought. That's why his (self-chosen, might I add) vows make him never strike first, never use ranged weapons (it's so much easier to kill someone when you don't have to see, hear, _smell_ him dying), and never forget that others might repent. If he didn't have tendencies in the other direction, well, there's not much Honor in vowing to do something you wanted to do anyway. YMMV. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:32:36 -0500 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Michael, the Peacemaker? Chuckg wrote: > > Novalis can see the degree of love or hate between any two people > *within line of sight* (Vassal of Flowers), and can calm an irrational > individual or smooth over small misunderstandings even though > resisting subjects get a contest of Will (Master of Peace). You know, > Novalis could *really* stand to have her own equivalent of the > Mercurian of War attachment -- maybe all that idealism is actually > getting *in* the way at times, as you can't judge the price of peace > if you don't believe that peace actually has a price... IMC, this was intentional on the part of Michael and Novalis: it required their servitors to cooperate whenever they were trying to deal with a major human conflict, and thus prevented their servitors from working at cross-purposes. (And the generalization to all the other archangels was a nice explanation of why the PC group had a random collection of angels in it.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:38:37 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Hart" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 3:23 AM Subject: Re: IN> re: Michael the Peacemaker > Michael isn't any sort of pacifist. Or if he is, then so is Baal who > probably also is content not to fight unless it's 'necessary' -- because > that's wasteful of resources. > > If you see the world through the eyes of War, then everything looks like a > battle. True. > You see everything in terms of conflicts to be either fought or > resolved through diplomacy. Yup. > You are _incapable_ of seeing things other than > in those terms. ("You're either with me or against me!") Actually, Michael phrases it as "He who is not against me may be persuaded to be for me." (Superiors 1, p. 129) And then there's one of my favorite Bujold-isms... "A weapon is a device for making an enemy change his mind." [snip excellent analysis of Flowers] > Michael wants them to fight evil, fight evil, and fight evil some more until > there is nothing left to fight. Peace through superior firepower. And he > doesn't know how to back down and he doesn't believe in compromise. Doesn't know how to back down, no. Doesn't know how to compromise... there, I don't agree. The entity who invented the particular Symphonic attunement for seeing exactly what will bring peace between two people is not, in my mind, likely to think *only* in terms of unconditional surrender. We only see that because at the current moment, the particular foe that we see Michael doing most of his fighting against (Lucifer and his hordes) are settling for nothing less than unconditional surrender in their own right. The way I see it, the mindset "I simply will not settle for losing" is *not* necessarily equal to the mindset "I simply will not settle for anything less than the total obliteration of my enemy". And remember, Michael has spent over 99.99999% of his life (22,000 years out of 4.6 billion plus) not killing anything. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:07:35 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and opposing words Charles Phipps wrote: > I liken it to (sorry David) David Edenstein's work on the Angels of Cities.> Both Angels are diametrically opposed at princible....the Angel of Cities> wants to have futuretopia cities that are clean, safe, and fun to be around> while the Demon of Cities wants something extremely unpleasant> instead...crime ridden dystopias. However both of them are going to oppose> the idea of a demon or angel promoting that cities are places that are dark,> horrofic, blights on the Earth (even if one city is). Actually, the Demon of Cities wouldn't mind cities being viewed as dark, horrific blights on the Earth, as long as this didn't cause people to stop living in them or building them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:55:51 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Has this come up before? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:07 AM Subject: IN> Has this come up before? > Umm, guys, if stuff from the corporeal plane can't > show up on the celestial unless you wave a Magic Game > Mechanics Wand over it... > > ...what precisely _are_ they eating in Hell? I mean, > we know they have vegetables: there's a cafe where > demons can torture them. > > Or do I really not want to know the answer?* > > Moe [Chuckg waves a Magic Game Mechanics Wand] How I solved this problem was simple -- I invented the 0-point Level/0 celestial artifact. It does absolutely nothing except enable a corporeal object to exist on the celestial plane. The drawback is that once you do it that way corporeal object can't ever exist on the corporeal plane again, which is why every angel isn't doing it to his favored corporeal possessions. And why Mammon actually goes to the bother of having his Notaries turn all his soul contracts into 1/point Reliquaries (not to mention, of course, the "compound interest benefits" involved in having every single piece of paper in the dead storage files be independently generating Essence... never pass up an angle to make a buck, that's his motto). How to make Celestial Artifacts/0-0 is a simple trick that pretty much any older celestial who actually cares to find out can eventually learn, it's just you silly little 9-Forcers that haven't been taught that yet. (After all, while it's hardly anything major, if every celestial knew how then the littering problem would get pretty acute...) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1895 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.