From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Nov 4 09:18:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22620 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:18:55 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA23447 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:17:26 -0600 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:17:26 -0600 Message-Id: <200011041517.JAA23447@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, November 4 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1905 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1899 IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1901 IN> Angel of Hussars IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 IN> And one phone call later, the Second Revolt begins... IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1903 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1903 IN> Anaiel &Benjamin Re: IN> (no subject) Re: IN> Looking for a signature Re: IN> "Essence constructs." Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 Re: IN> El Shaddai Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Re: IN> Sinister allegations Re: IN> Angel of Animal Rights Re: IN> Sinister allegations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:41:28 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1899 Also, they are not under Jordi's control. So he would probably be a little resentful of them. Oh yes, and humans spend a lot of unnecessary damage overall, which makes Jordi dislike them on principle. - ----- Original Message ----- From: James Walker To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 8:50 PM Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1899 > Does Jordi hate killer whales? > No? > Then why hate the whalers? > From his perspective they would be no different to any other predator. > (excepting that fewer critters are getting killed) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:12:21 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! >> Unlike Luke, Laurence isn't a whining little prat. > >Fine. Consider what young Obi-Wan would have done if he turned around one >day and suddenly, entirely unexpectedly, saw Darth Qui-Gon Jinn, Sith Lord, >standing behind him. (This is, of course, happening *before* the events of >Episode One.) > >Would Obi-Wan suddenly fall to the Dark Side? Nope. >Would Obi-Wan drop his lightsaber and whine? Nope. >But would Obi-Wan be able to *win*? >Probably not. Probably not is true. But not certain. There are a few things that give him - - or Laurence - a chance. 1)The enemy is uncertain of their new powers. Consider your own point: >IIRC, as soon as you Fall, you lose your Word. You don't get a diabolic >Word until Lucifer gives you one -- which requires him to meet you first. Loosing all his Word-Forces, Attunements & Rites would hurt. A lot. 2) Falling is - to both Laurence and Michael (and Qui-gon & Kenobi) - a sign of weakness. An exploitable flaw. Laurence can detect Michael's band & actions by Resonance - even with Superior cloaking that will give him an edge. What are his current lies? One of them will be that he isn't flawed, and still proud. "You will kill me, Michael, but everyone will know that you needed your axe, that you couldn't take me unarmed.." ' oh yeah![throws away axe] my fists can take you boy!' (Okay, that's probably true, but it still improves his chances!). >> :"Michael's still in Heaven? Taking damage from the Light of >> Heaven? David! Janus! Zadkiel! Gabriel! Help me kill him! Dominc! Stop him >> leaving! (which he can do with his Warder Distinction). Everybody gets hurt >> lots, but Michael dies. > >Everybody *just* gets hurts lots? If Michael can't even take *one* of them >with him, he's not just slipping, he's fighting with both feet in a bucket >and a blindfold on... David has some wonderful attunements - 'hold my hands everybody - we are now linked, and stand or die together!'. think it's called Brotherhood. Must have for any Soldier of Stone. >.. and, well, if they lose any one of the ones on that list, save possibly >Zadkiel, the balance of power shifted significantly in Hell's favor > >Any *two* of them... *way* in Hell's favor. Oh yes, especially given that they've just lost Michael. Heaven's on the defensive for centuries, maybe millenia. >Remember, Laurence is one of the mightiest warriors in the Host in his own >right, who consistently makes the top three on the list of "The Average >Demon Prince's Worst Nightmares"... and Michael didn't just beat Laurence, >he *humbled* him. Truly, and if he faces Michael one on one, he'll die. However: 1)that duel was when Laurence was a newbie - really a minor Superior with a big job. He'll have grown a lot since then. 2) Laurence is the patron of Soldiers - and Soldiers are team players. The clash is Michael (I can split them up!) against Laurence & David (we can unite!). The two Heavely Words would be able to link. And then hook in everyone else. > > >> One of the many reasons Hell cannot win outright (as opposed to conquering >> the Corporeal realm) is that demons in Heaven fry. If Michael falls then >he >> starts burning, gets dissonance from violoating the Pax Dei, creates >> disturbance when he destroys anything/one,[interesting point - a demon >> entering Heaven creates disturbance; does Falling in Heaven do the same?], >> has to tangle with the entire War faction simultaneously (and David is a >> match for Baal, so would actually have a small chance against Michael >> alone!], > >In a mass melee such as you describe, I foresee Michael using the Ofanite of >War attunement to move first before anybody else can, and then start playing >hit and run. Stone is only dangerous if you stand and fight against him... >Stone does *not* win wars of manuever. The Wind can of course maneuver, but >the Wind cannot hope to beat Michael alone. (And the other beautiful part >about Ofanite of War is that it *does* allow you to make tactical retreats, >if they're for the purpose of winning the overall battle of maneuver.) Ah, no. Having been caught outside in a willy-willy (local version of a hurricane) I can assure you that the Wind can move Stone. While David is handing out Brotherhood, Janus lets rip with his personalised versions of the Songs of Speed. Everyone can keep up with him - except Michael! > >And with that huge grudge, plus the threat of the Warder distinction (clever >tactic, though), Dominic's going *first*... Oh yes, poor old Dominc is toast. Imagine how guilty God would feel - 'You're dead because I wouldn't let you convict the arrogant traitor - oh Dominic I am so sorry....' > >I mean, if Michael ever Falls, the first warning that it happened at all is >going to be when Dark Michael jumps out of the coat closet and cuts >Dominic's head off. Just to pay back old grudges. As well as worry about >that Warder attunement (*very* clever idea there, by the way). Thanks for the compliments, but do you really think that Dominc wouldn't pick Michael's Fall? It is his job, after all, and as a Seraph Michael will find it very difficult to hide the warning signs. > >After all, while the disturbance of Michael Falling will rock all of Heaven, >they still won't know *which* Superior Fell until *after* the screaming >starts... True, but they'll know where. >And while the Light Of Heaven will crisp your average demon in >short order, Demon Princes can last a while. Granted. But it will make him easier to take down. >And if they can't? OK then. He leaves. > >And then Dark Michael puts out a sign staying "You can't win the war if >you're hiding in Heaven all the time -- and anything that sticks a nose >outside of it, I'm cutting the whole head off. Don't like it? Try and make >me stop. > >Correction -- make *US* stop." That's a good sum up. At which point Marc says "Pity about poor old Dominc, but now that he's gone, does anyone object to alliances with Demon Princes? I can funnel resources to Michael's rivals in Hell; if Michael twigs, then he'll destroy the Prince I'm working with (weakening Hell) and if he doesn't we fight beside our new allies against Michael in the near future. " Novalis perks up- "we might even be able to redemn one!" As Baal would put it "The War never ends, you merely get new uniforms for the cannonfodder". > >> and may get more dissonance for running away (depending on how his >> new Word operates - which assumes that he's still Word bound!). > >> >In my own opinion, Michael Falling = Game Over. YMMV. *eg* >> You give up too easily. Laurence would not - > >I didn't say Laurence would give up. I'm just saying Laurence would be >really, really, REALLY not sure about his chances of winning. Even while >totally terrified and with knees knocking and heart quivering, Laurence >would still without hesitation march into battle for honor's sake. Agreed, >200%. > >But if there's anything in all of creation that can make Laurence afraid, >the thought of going up against Michael in a battle to the death -- with the >fate of Heaven on the line -- has got to be it. Having the Fate of Heaven on the doorstep! Yes, that would make him afraid. Almost as much as the Fall of the Malakim. But he's probably still kicking himself about that. "I was a fool to be afraid last time - won't give in to fear this time". > >> heroic last stands > >Emphasis -- "last* stand..." *eg* "Ragnarok welcomes careful[careless?] beserkers?" >> Also, given the sort of things that would give Michael dissonance, >> consider: he may end up as the Demon Prince of Cowardice! > >Now *there's* a thought to hurt the brain... owowowowowowowowowowowowwwwwww! Thank You! We Try. > >Of course, this whole discussion is really moot, 'cause the odds of Michael >Falling are, IMO, somewhere down around... > >"When Malakim start dropping into the Pit like hailstones, when Dark Novalis >is busy spreading toxic waste across the entire biosphere and torturing >flower girls to death for grins, when David has committed suicide out of >despair over his newfound belief that Heaven has no way to win, when >*practically every other being in creation* has decided to go Jump and swear >allegiance to Lucifer, Michael will think about it. > >And then he'll spit in Lucifer's general direction, look at Laurence, and >say 'Well, at least we can still take *some* of them with us...' " Or even "Can't think of a winning strategy at this point - let's slaughter a few of them, and then think about a plan for the rest!" Cheers, Chuck - James. I stared into the Abyss, and the Abyss blinked first......... (with apologies to Nietzche) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:30:36 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1901 >Great writeup, but I focused in on one of the side comments in it the >most... > >> Meszaros is also the Servitor responsible for persuading new Bright Lilim >> to serve the Sword. (One of his favourite techniques is to point out that >> Laurence is totally committed to winning the War, so that after >Armageddon, >> he'll have lost his purpose in life - maybe if the Lilim was present at >> that point, she would be able to help him explore the non-violent aspects >> of his WordS) > >There *is* such an aspect to the Sword? Even War has *some* non-violent >aspects... his Word specifically encompasses both non-violent yet intense >competition, as well as the peace that follows War. But the Sword? >Laurence was purpose-built from the ground up to be the Perfect Demon >Hunter, and then was refined and tempered into Heaven's General... there's >not a single solitary mote of anything else in him that *isn't* there to >serve those purposes. very true. But your typical Lilim is likely to disagree. Remember that the Roman term for a condom was a sword sheath. > >Now that makes Laurence a *really* tragic figure. And yet, it's so true -- >even *Michael* can at least potentially conceive of a world without the War >betwen Heaven & Hell, because he predates the War and the Fall. But >Laurence has *never* known *anything* but the War... and even moreso than >all other young celestials, he was forged for it like a living weapon. >It's all he's ever done or ever thought about doing. > >He truly is the Sword... he was drawn, forged, quenched, tempered... and is >now being used. But what to do with a Sword after all wars have come to an >end? Hang it on the wall and let it rot? > >And also, perhaps, why he's Commander of the Host. Not because he's the >best -- but because he's good enough to get the job done, and because it's >the only job he can do. Yes, but there are other aspects to the Sword. A Sword is (well,was) the only weapon which was neither a tool nor a hunting implement*. As such, it is the symbol of the Nobility (war was their profession), Justice (because it was a symbol of the nobility) and of the professional warrior. Also, it has some interesting metaphorical elements: to the Arabs the term Sword of God was given to a warrior who served God's ends blindly, just as a sword goes where it's wielder aims it. Further, in Japanese one of the words meaning sword also means soul (No,I don't know which one, but it is important in one of the stories of Musashi) - this is a deliberate double meaning, and one that suits Laurence. * This is one reason why Laurence is the leader for the future: He percieves a tank or a warplane as a Sword, and understands tech. Guided Missiles? Laurencians would having been using alchemical preperations to slap the Hunt attunement on arrows a thousands years ago! > >Makes me wonder if this poor knight's Destiny is "To die gloriously in >battle leading Heaven to the final victory" -- and his Fate is to "Die in a >noble yet futile last stand vs. the triumphant hordes of Lucifer." > >All roads lead to his eventual death? The only difference lies whether he >dies achieving or failing? > >*Very* tragic. He probably suspects that, or maybe hopes to be a minor Servitor of Judgement (The Sword of Justice!) Oh no, he doesn't. No matter how much he dislikes Novalis, he always insists that her Word will be pre-eminent after Armageddon. The Good Christian Lad knows his future: everyone, please welcome: . . LAURENCE, THE ANGEL OF PLOWSHARES! I stared into the Abyss, and the Abyss blinked first......... (with apologies to Nietzche) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:42:55 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Angel of Hussars >I thought so, too. I liked the bit about 'men >learning to swoon over dashing heroines' bit. This >guy's probably helping to push those series of books >about swordswomen kicking butt and rescuing hapless >males...* Thank you (to everyone! As my first major contribution to the list, I confess I was a bit nervous about what people would think). And yes, he would. That paragraph has slowly been developing in my mind since a Con a few years ago, where one of the games was about a Prince who is avoiding a political marraige by running off into a forest full of Nymphs; because of their abilities the King has posted a reward to any warrior women who can rescue the Prince... 'Twas a good game. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:50:15 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 >>[snip] very moving, Chuck, but i believe James had more... racy... things >>in mind. no offense, James. >there's simply a euphemism you're >>overlooking, Chuck, specifically one for male anatomy... and the >>>predeliction of Lilim for following Malakim butts . None taken, Kish. For eight months, I had a Lilim in my game whose sole aim in life was to redeem so that she could get into Laurence's pants.* It's no wonder that his Master Attunement allows him to say 'NO'. He'd never get any work done, otherwise! *And on reflection, I shouldn't have let Eli handle the redemption. But it seemed like a good idea at the time...... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:54:01 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> And one phone call later, the Second Revolt begins... Moe, we are not worthy. I bow before your genius! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:04:43 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1903 >You can make an adventure out of *anything* if you try hard enough. Truly > It is >my crowning ambition to some day make a group of hack-and-slash PCs all >excited and tense about a tax audit. With no gunplay. > >Haven't managed that one yet, but I'm working on it... > >- -- >Chuckg Tense. Not excited. Just Tense. Sorry, I was a tax collector for six years, and I still get the shakes. Mind you, I have had fun as a AD&D GM using the 12th Armoured Taxation Corps. Hint for exciting taxation collection - tithes. No, you can't get healed. Or Blessed. Or resurrected. Or buried. Or into Heaven. You didn't pay your tithes. Coff up. Now. With Interest. And then go to the back of the queue. Honest people need help, tax dodger. That's the real reason to adventure! To pay your tax bill! In Nomine Content? Possible. Demon of Fate with a Role as a Tax collector who bankrupts businesses? NO. Do it with Judgement. That's how they got Al Capone, after all.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:10:58 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1903 >At 3:16 PM -0800 11/3/00, James Walker wrote: >[Attunement Synergy] >>Seraph of Judgement(or Revelations, but less >>fun) serving Dreams; > >Any GM who allows this... >...had better be prepared for the Seraph's method to change to: > >1. Go to sleep. >2. Get to human. >3. Enter dreamscape. >4. Interrogate. >5. Get every last scrap of TRUTH in the first sentence. > > >Or insist on interrogating people in the Marches. > >My brain hurts. Understood. This is why we tell the player that it will take 50 years to earn the Attunement. Of Real time, not game time! (Mind you, I figure that if humans know what is going on, then no problem in a Seraph finding out). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:14:23 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Anaiel &Benjamin >I have come to a decision: these are the guys to do the scrubbing for you. Very nice. I wish I'd had access to them last year! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:43 +0000 From: Kay Dekker Subject: Re: IN> (no subject) Reverend Brian wrote: >> I have a t-shirt that reads, in blocky Latin script, "Sometimes I get this >> urge to conquer large parts of Europe." > What is that in Latin? That is cool! I'd go with: Partium magnarum Europa vincendarum interdum cupidine feror. Kay, will translate to and from Latin for food... sheesh, there has to be _some_ benefit to a good education :) - -- Punishment is its own reward ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:30 +0000 From: Kay Dekker Subject: Re: IN> Looking for a signature Eric wrote: > At 1:40 PM +0000 11/3/00, Laurent wrote: > >Kay wrote: > >> Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum catapultas > >> proscripti soli habebunt. > >And that would mean...? > >Sorry, I didn't learn latin... mea culpa. > I'm rusty, but from the look it seems to say "If catapults are > outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults." *grin* That's the one. Kay - -- Punishment is its own reward ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:49:27 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> "Essence constructs." From: "James Walker" Subject: IN> "Essence constructs." > For Heaven at least, there are supplies available. Plants and animals can > get to Heaven ... Heaven would have an endless supply of fruit, > dairy products, wool, silk etc don't all the animals go to jordi's region? i'd imagine wandering in and attempting to shear/milk any of the animals would be a quick way to get a Superior jumping on your head liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:34:06 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Walker" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! > Probably not is true. But not certain. There are a few things that give him > - or Laurence - a chance. > 1)The enemy is uncertain of their new powers. Consider your own point: > >IIRC, as soon as you Fall, you lose your Word. You don't get a diabolic > >Word until Lucifer gives you one -- which requires him to meet you first. > Loosing all his Word-Forces, Attunements & Rites would hurt. A lot. > 2) Falling is - to both Laurence and Michael (and Qui-gon & Kenobi) - a > sign of weakness. Errr... yup. Baal like *so* wimped out when he Fell. So did Lucifer. Falling is *not* a sign of weakness to Michael. It's a sign you've changed allegiance. > An exploitable flaw. Laurence can detect Michael's band & > actions by Resonance - even with Superior cloaking that will give him an > edge. What are his current lies? One of them will be that he isn't flawed, > and still proud. "You will kill me, Michael, but everyone will know that > you needed your axe, that you couldn't take me unarmed.." ' oh yeah![throws > away axe] my fists can take you boy!' > (Okay, that's probably true, but it still improves his chances!). I disagree, because Michael doesn't fall for stuff like this even when he's a *good* guy. When he's a bad guy? This is not the fallen Archangel of Valor we're talking about here... > >> :"Michael's still in Heaven? Taking damage from the Light of > >> Heaven? David! Janus! Zadkiel! Gabriel! Help me kill him! Dominc! Stop him > >> leaving! (which he can do with his Warder Distinction). Everybody gets hurt > >> lots, but Michael dies. > > > >Everybody *just* gets hurts lots? If Michael can't even take *one* of them > >with him, he's not just slipping, he's fighting with both feet in a bucket > >and a blindfold on... > David has some wonderful attunements - 'hold my hands everybody - we are > now linked, and stand or die together!'. think it's called Brotherhood. > Must have for any Soldier of Stone. The only problem is, that only works if *everybody in the group* has the Brotherhood attunement -- and while Superiors have every one of their own attunements, they don't have every one of everyone else's. > >.. and, well, if they lose any one of the ones on that list, save possibly > >Zadkiel, the balance of power shifted significantly in Hell's favor > > > >Any *two* of them... *way* in Hell's favor. > Oh yes, especially given that they've just lost Michael. Heaven's on the > defensive for centuries, maybe millenia. > > >Remember, Laurence is one of the mightiest warriors in the Host in his own > >right, who consistently makes the top three on the list of "The Average > >Demon Prince's Worst Nightmares"... and Michael didn't just beat Laurence, > >he *humbled* him. > Truly, and if he faces Michael one on one, he'll die. However: > 1)that duel was when Laurence was a newbie - really a minor Superior with a > big job. He'll have grown a lot since then. a) The Angel of the Sword's individual sword skills were honed to their finest edge before he became a Superior. Remember, he was damn near the Perfect Malakite. What new stuff Laurence has been learning while on the job has been how to lead and organize, not how to fight. b) IIRC, it makes no mention of when that duel was fought except to imply that it wasn't in the past couple of centuries. IOW, it could have been any time between the 8th century and the 16th. Plenty of time for La > 2) Laurence is the patron of Soldiers - and Soldiers are team players. No, he's the patron of Knights. Bit of a difference. And War is not just loners -- War is the patron of those people who can both fight alone *and* in teams. (Remember what Michael does to Servitors who screw up missions because they couldn't co-ordinate well with others.) > The clash is Michael (I can split them up!) against Laurence & David (we can > unite!). The two Heavely Words would be able to link. And then hook in > everyone else. Only if David can hand out a new attunement in nanoseconds -- 'cause they don't got it now. [snip] > >In a mass melee such as you describe, I foresee Michael using the Ofanite of > >War attunement to move first before anybody else can, and then start playing > >hit and run. Stone is only dangerous if you stand and fight against him... > >Stone does *not* win wars of manuever. The Wind can of course maneuver, but > >the Wind cannot hope to beat Michael alone. (And the other beautiful part > >about Ofanite of War is that it *does* allow you to make tactical retreats, > >if they're for the purpose of winning the overall battle of maneuver.) > Ah, no. Having been caught outside in a willy-willy (local version of a > hurricane) I can assure you that the Wind can move Stone. While David is > handing out Brotherhood, Janus lets rip with his personalised versions of > the Songs of Speed. Everyone can keep up with him - except Michael! > > > >And with that huge grudge, plus the threat of the Warder distinction (clever > >tactic, though), Dominic's going *first*... > Oh yes, poor old Dominc is toast. Imagine how guilty God would feel - > 'You're dead because I wouldn't let you convict the arrogant traitor - oh > Dominic I am so sorry....' a) this doesn't respond to the main problem here b) if he wasn't guilty at the time, then he wasn't guilty -- since everyone potentially has both a Destiny and a Fate, you don't convict someone because of what he did to achieve his Fate until after he achieves it c) This is a pretty big hint from God that Michael's probably not going to Fall, ever. > >I mean, if Michael ever Falls, the first warning that it happened at all is > >going to be when Dark Michael jumps out of the coat closet and cuts > >Dominic's head off. Just to pay back old grudges. As well as worry about > >that Warder attunement (*very* clever idea there, by the way). > Thanks for the compliments, but do you really think that Dominc wouldn't > pick Michael's Fall? In a word -- yes. Superior-on-Superior ineffability > It is his job, after all, and as a Seraph Michael will > find it very difficult to hide the warning signs. Michael, in the course of his normal everyday routine now, is a loner, individualistic, goes his own way, isn't very forthcoming, and is openly hostile to Dominic and all his works. Given that he's also one of the sneakiest old bastards in Heaven (who was it who invented "unconventional" warfare again? Wasn't Laurence!)... Plus, Superior-on-Superior ineffability. When Superior goes vs. Superior, the effectiveness of their resonances is determined by which one is one up on the power scale from the other. Given that Michael > Dominic... And finally, if you read Superiors 1 you will see that while Michael can't stand Dominic, Dominic has no especial suspicions of Michael. > >they still won't know *which* Superior Fell until *after* the screaming > >starts... > True, but they'll know where. a) I don't think Falling causes disturbance by itself. If you're looking at the Heart when it shatters, you know. Otherwise, you don't know until you see your buddy's new celestial self. b) Celestial Song Of Motion. Michael can be standing behind Dominic while Dominic is still spending his first combat round making his Perception roll to figure out where that noise is coming from. *Disturbance* "A demon has suddenly entered Heaven! Where...?" *DISTURBANCE* "Oh. Two feet behind me. *That's* where..." *WHACKWHACKWHACKWHACK* Then Michael immediately exits stage left for Blandine's Tower, before the Archangel Mop Squad can bamf in. > >And while the Light Of Heaven will crisp your average demon in > >short order, Demon Princes can last a while. > Granted. But it will make him easier to take down. Which is why, if I were Michael, I'd make sure that the Archangels I whacked while on my way out the door were *not* the combatant types.. sure, if Dark Michael takes Laurence and David and Janus head-on, he's not going to get much of anywhere. But he doesn't need to. The *combat* capacity of Heaven has already taken a major loss, simply because they've already lost Michael. Where I'd concentrate my axe strokes is on Oh, I'm an idiot! I just realized exactly how Michael could do this -- because one of the top three Archangels Heaven can most afford to lose *does not live entirely within Heaven*. "Hi, Lucifer, I'm here to serve Hell now. BTW, I left Heaven via Blandine's tower and hiked across the Marches. So for my entrance gift, I've got a little something for Beleth..." *tosses Blandine's battered, comatose, but still-living form to the ground* (or, if that's too difficult, just tosses her head to the ground) "Have fun, girls." Losing Blandine is a *major* problem for Heaven. What chance of achieving your Destiny when nobody on Earth can sleep peacefully anymore? When Dreams die, hope dies. > >And if they can't? OK then. He leaves. > > > >And then Dark Michael puts out a sign staying "You can't win the war if > >you're hiding in Heaven all the time -- and anything that sticks a nose > >outside of it, I'm cutting the whole head off. Don't like it? Try and make > >me stop. > > > >Correction -- make *US* stop." > That's a good sum up. At which point Marc says "Pity about poor old Dominc, > but now that he's gone, The reason I picked Dominic to kill is now Heaven's going to have a slight long-term problem with Internal Corruption... Sure, Litheroy can pick up some of the slack, but he's got an experience problem there. Net gain for Hell on *another* front. > does anyone object to alliances with Demon Princes? A strategic move this obvious is easily foreseeable by Michael -- it's what *he'd* do, after all. So, since Dark Michael does some things backwards, *he'd* ally with The Game... after all, if he's already whacked Dominic, then Azzy owes him a great big favor. Plus, who are the Princes most likely to ally with Heaven? Andrealphus, Nybbas, Fleurity, etc. -- the "If humanity dies or the War is over, I lose" types. Maybe Lilith. IOW, nobody who Michael couldn't butcher if he felt the need. And would Lucifer care? Most likely not -- if the balance of power shifts to where Armageddon is now clearly winnable for Hell, anybody who acts to delay or prevent that will feel Lucifer's wrath. [snip] > >But if there's anything in all of creation that can make Laurence afraid, > >the thought of going up against Michael in a battle to the death -- with the > >fate of Heaven on the line -- has got to be it. > Having the Fate of Heaven on the doorstep! Yes, that would make him afraid. > Almost as much as the Fall of the Malakim. But he's probably still kicking > himself about that. "I was a fool to be afraid last time - won't give in to > fear this time". Not giving in to fear is not the same thing as not feeling it. > >> heroic last stands > > > >Emphasis -- "last* stand..." *eg* > "Ragnarok welcomes careful[careless?] beserkers?" > > >> Also, given the sort of things that would give Michael dissonance, > >> consider: he may end up as the Demon Prince of Cowardice! > > > >Now *there's* a thought to hurt the brain... owowowowowowowowowowowowwwwwww! > Thank You! We Try. > > > >Of course, this whole discussion is really moot, 'cause the odds of Michael > >Falling are, IMO, somewhere down around... > > > >"When Malakim start dropping into the Pit like hailstones, when Dark Novalis > >is busy spreading toxic waste across the entire biosphere and torturing > >flower girls to death for grins, when David has committed suicide out of > >despair over his newfound belief that Heaven has no way to win, when > >*practically every other being in creation* has decided to go Jump and swear > >allegiance to Lucifer, Michael will think about it. > > > >And then he'll spit in Lucifer's general direction, look at Laurence, and > >say 'Well, at least we can still take *some* of them with us...' " > > Or even "Can't think of a winning strategy at this point *You* couldn't. *I* couldn't. Moe, OTOH... owowowowowowowwww! Brain hurts! - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:49:58 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Walker" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 12:50 AM Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 > None taken, Kish. For eight months, I had a Lilim in my game whose sole aim > in life was to redeem so that she could get into Laurence's pants.* > It's no wonder that his Master Attunement allows him to say 'NO'. He'd > never get any work done, otherwise! Here's a scene vignette from Maya's "Buffy Goes To IOU" - ---------- Willow, sitting at the computer, with a crowd of body-by-Andre Lilim leaning over her shoulders. One says, eagerly, "Look, if you can get us the latest photos of him from the Sword Website, we'll all owe you one..." - ---------- - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:21:50 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> El Shaddai In a message dated 11/1/00 6:58:27 AM, amadan@amadan.org writes: >James Walker wrote: >> >El-shaddai -- lit. "the breasted one;" applied to God as provider >> Are you sure of that translation? I've come across it elsewhere as "Lord >of> the Mountains". > > >Yes, I don't know where he got "the breasted one." El-Shaddai means "God >(El) of the Mountains". > >-David I think that there's a song confusion. "El-Shaddai" vs. "Jehovah Jireh". YHVH Yireh is 'The LORD provides' (very roughly), and IIRC yireh has an implication of lactation. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:39:57 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Charles Glasgow wrote: > > 2) Falling is - to both Laurence and Michael (and Qui-gon & Kenobi) - a> > sign of weakness. > > Errr... yup. Baal like *so* wimped out when he Fell. So did Lucifer. Yes. > Falling is *not* a sign of weakness to Michael. It's a sign you've changed> allegiance. And abandoned your faith, forsaken your principles and joined the side offering immediate gratification rather than holding steady in alliegiance to the Lord. If one of Michael's angels Fell, he would certainly regard that angel as having been weak and flawed. > b) if he wasn't guilty at the time, then he wasn't guilty -- since everyone> potentially has both a Destiny and a Fate, you don't convict someone because> of what he did to achieve his Fate until after he achieves it Actually, Michael was guilty. He was pardoned by God, not found innocent. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:11:57 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Sinister allegations Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:23:56 GMTFrom: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Sinister allegations >Moe, *why* are most angels left-handed in your >opinion? Because, as is obvious from the stuff I usually post, I believe that most angels are in their right minds.* >I think they're ambidextrous in Heaven (if they have >hands) and when in vessels they have the usual >percentage of left- and right-handedness. >Janet Anderson Actually, that works for me as well: however, I wasn't being too serious with that artifact, anyway, and I needed a third minor cool effect for ARRTPs, and I find the smudged hand effect most annoying, so what the heck. Too bad I wasn't around when they were playtesting Liber Reliquarum, or else I would have tried to sneak that into canon. Nice pun, BTW. :) Moe *I GOT THE STRAIGHT LINE! I GOT THE STRAIGHT LINE! BWAHH-HAHH-HAH-HAH-HAH!!! ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:07:26 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Animal Rights Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:24:16 -0500From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Angel of Animal Rights >Just a thought here, anyone want to do the Angel of >Kittens? Not me, dude. Too many people with flensing knives out there, just waiting for someone to say anything mean about kittens. >Ooo ooo or the Vapulite Angel of Attempting to >Crossbreed puppies and Kittens? That, OTOH ... maybe 'Angel' of Perversions of Science? >Also does anyone think there should be an Angel of >Dinosaurs? One who just struggles after having >retreated into heaven to restore their memory...maybe >with some REALLY odd vessels? That one I could see as a fairly successful Servitor of Children, actually. One who left Jordi's service after he got tired of listening to his Superior rant about humans one too many times.* He spends a lot of time encouraging kids to be dinosaur-happy (not that they need encouragement, the precious little moppets). Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of However, he kept his favorite vessel as a Cherub of Animals. Currently, his AA has him watching over this one kid (whether he's protecting him from the world, or the world from him, is yet to be seen). Those lucid dreamers can be a handful. Luckily, the kid just _loves_ dinosaurs... *Hey, humans had nothing to do with the dinosaur extinctions: besides, they want to find some big lizard DNA and _clone_ them... just because they think it'd be _neat_. How can you dislike a species that wants to bring back Triceratops, just because they think it'd be neat? :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:16:45 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Sinister allegations Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:16:45 -0600From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Sinister allegations At 11:23 PM 03/11/00 +0000, Janet Anderson wrote: >>Moe, *why* are most angels left-handed in your >>opinion? >I can't speak for Moe, but I tend to create more >lefties than normal because *I'm* left-handed. It's >more natural for me to write about a southpaw. Ahem. I am a sample unit of the set known as "humans". I am left-handed. Mercurians are designed to emulate humans. Mercurians are a large subset of the set known as "angels". A sample unit of the set known as "angels" can thus be safely assumed to be left-handed. This exercise in Spurious Logic has been brought to you by the letters M, O and E, and the number 23.* *Yes, I know that you could drive a truck through the holes. That's why the skill's called _Spurious_ Logic. ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.