From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Nov 5 03:17:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13241 for ; Sun, 5 Nov 2000 03:17:50 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id DAA23645 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 5 Nov 2000 03:15:48 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 03:15:48 -0600 Message-Id: <200011050915.DAA23645@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1906 In this digest: IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Re: IN> Boo. Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Re: IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1898 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1899 Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate Re: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Re: IN> Re: Jordi & Whaling Re: IN> Sinister allegations Re: IN> Jordi's ire (was STUFF!) Re: IN> Re: Jordi & Whaling IN> So..... Re: IN> So..... Re: IN> So..... Re: IN> So..... Re: IN> So..... Re: IN> So..... IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 IN> Michael against Heaven Re: IN> So..... Re:IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 Re:IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:23:37 GMT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights Seeing that there's a War on, angels probably spend at least part of their time in drill, sparring, martial arts training, and other forms of practice fighting. Not just Servitors of War and the Sword, but probably *any* angel except Servitors of Flowers and maybe Trade. Now, how do Servitors of Stone manage this, given their Dissonance conditions? Do practice fights not count toward Dissonance? Do they have to wait until their opponent moves -- which not only puts them at a tactical disadvantage but means that two Servitors of Stone can't ever practice with each other? And how do they train others in the art of self-defense, which is one of their most important duties, if they can't attack their students in order to teach them to defend themselves? Which leads me to another question (which I think I asked before and no one knew the answer): How do you pull punches in the In Nomine combat system? If my Strength 9 Cherub is going to be sparring with a human Soldier, I would like to have this clarified before it comes up. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:04:57 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Much as this debate amuses me (I think that there's at least one person arguing both sides), I feel constrained to point out that, in canon at least, that when Superior and non-Superior meet, non-Superior is usually toast. Yes, even Mikey. GMG, page 96: "...and Michael can send most Demon Princes crawling back to Hell, but it takes a lot of energy." This is the default Michael, the AA Michael, the Michael who hasn't just lost his Word, his Word-Forces, all the Essence that went with it, and the ineffable amount of oomph that goes from being a Word-Bound of Superior power ... and he _still_ isn't considered kickass enough to handle a whole crowd of his peers. I sincerely doubt that Falling would make Michael _more_ pumped.* :) As to one-on-one, well... can Balseraph Michael of nothing in particular successfully attack Blandine, or Dominic, or Novalis? Possibly, if he gets lucky. What good will it do him? Superiors can manifest themselves in multiple locations, even in the celestial plane... and every Superior is insanely busy, so they probably all do. Alas, Michael probably can't. This is one reason why more Superiors don't get toasted: it's hard to pin them down, or really get the drop on them, unless you're at their level. Bal-Mike won't be. AAs that Fall stop being ineffable and just become very, very powerful. And, as the first Law of Munchkinism reminds us, if _you_ give it stats, _I_ can kill it. I won't even begin to touch on the insanity of trying to jump someone on her own turf (Blandine), or who's paranoid to a fault (Dominic), or just plain too full of defensive/protective/peace mojo (Novalis**), when you've just done the celestial equivalent of sawing off your left arm... The poor bugger ain't getting out of Heaven unless he just runs and Jumps. Demon Prince of Cowardice sounds about right after that, but not in MY game... :) YMMV, especially since the scenario is kinda interesting to contemplate. I don't want anyone to think that I'm making disapproving noises, here. I just felt the need to toss in the $.02, etc, etc, etc. Moe *Although a Michael that Jumped ... deliberately ... so that he could sidle his way into the hierarchy of Hell and destroy it from within, well THAT'S a whole different barrel of monkeys. Hey, it's been suggested for Aleamon. :) **Bal-Mike had better HOPE that he goes for Novy first. The other two will quash him like a bug (they probably won't even recognize him): Novalis will just sit on his chest until she figures out what the Hell is going on, then start the Redemption process... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:55:48 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Boo. From: "Maurice Lane" > > Christine > Ofanite Friend of Sleepers > Angel of the Genre of Horror Nice work! (Although I do have to admit my disappointment at not seeing a red Plymouth Fury as one of her vessels, but I can get over that. *g*) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:34:03 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 10:04 AM Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! > Much as this debate amuses me (I think that there's at > least one person arguing both sides), I feel > constrained to point out that, in canon at least, that > when Superior and non-Superior meet, non-Superior is > usually toast. Ah, but it's a severe case of Fnord as to whether one can *ever* become a non-Superior again, once one has been a Superior. Remember, before the Fall, non-Word-bound Superiors did exist -- 'cause Michael didn't get his Word until the Fall. But he's always been the buffest one around. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:36:08 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Anderson" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 9:23 AM Subject: IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights Simplest solution is to do the same ruling that the Pax Dei did -- practice fights don't count as falling within the category of "violence", as long as they're really just for practice. Instead, they're just physical exercise. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:37:01 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1898 From: "James Walker" > >Moaz, Angel of Creative Mayhem > >"The world has too many oppresive people with no sense of humor. Hit them > >with pies." > Beautiful. And I was wondering who to use as a drill sergeant for the > training exercise I wanted to put my group through next session. > I cannot thank you enough for this. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:51:32 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1899 At 2:41 AM -0800 11/4/00, Bevan Thomas wrote: >Also, they are not under Jordi's control. So he would probably be a little >resentful of them. Oh yes, and humans spend a lot of unnecessary damage >overall, which makes Jordi dislike them on principle. And the whalers are not killing for the purposes Jordi champions. They do not kill out of hunger, the need to eat now... they killed to burn their oil, use their bones, render their meat. They kill for convenience, or kill for fun. They do not kill out of the dance of predator and prey, but out of... Economics. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:00:37 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! At 8:04 AM -0800 11/4/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >As to one-on-one, well... can Balseraph Michael of >nothing in particular successfully attack Blandine, or >Dominic, or Novalis? Possibly, if he gets lucky. >What good will it do him? Superiors can manifest >themselves in multiple locations, even in the >celestial plane... and every Superior is insanely >busy, so they probably all do. Alas, Michael probably >can't. You know, all of this presumes that Michael is psyched and wholeheartedly given over to Hell in the first instants after Falling - -- instead of being horrified that he's suddenly, painfully become the opposite of all he believes, all he has *been* since the literal beginning of time. I'm thinking first he'll look up, throw his arms in the air a la the Devil in the Night on Bald Mountain/Ave Maria sequence in Fantasia, beg to know **WHY?**, and then be driven back by the Light of Heaven that had always been a comfort, falling down to Earth or Hell, where he collects himself, and begins to quietly take stalk, to mourn, to be angry, to justify, to resonate himself, and to build himself towards the mindset of a Demon Prince. In the meantime, Heaven will be freaking, but also building themselves up. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:12:56 -0800 From: "Glenn Brown" Subject: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate The problem I see with the discussion of what might happen if Michael Fell is that it approaches the issue from a military perspective. IMHO, the military perspective is not the only, or even the best, way to think about the conflict between Heaven and Hell, which is why I think the use of clever military tactics like Moe's idea of sending human infiltrators into Hell armed with plastic explosives *totally* misses the point. I think the best way to think about this "War" is to view it as an extended use of a Balseraphic resonance. Lucifer is arguing that it is better for angels to be selfish rather than selfless. Since he wasn't able to persuade the entire Host of the Truth of this proposition, Lucifer needs to find or create evidence that will help him make his case. (The IPG talks about how a Balseraph can use evidence to strengthen the power of his Resonance.) I think Lucifer views the entire War as an effort to accumulate the evidence he needs to use his Resonance more effectively. If Lucifer can produce a sufficiently convincing argument, then all of the Archangels will Fall. Conversely, if the weight of evidence eventually *proves* Lucifer was lying, then the dissonance he will suffer when his lie is exposed will lead to his Redemption or destruction. (I think his Redemption is more likely than his destruction, but that is another issue.) Lucifer's Redemption or destruction will lead to the same outcomes for the rest of the demons. The only remotely plausible circumstances I can see in which Michael might Fall is if his own Seraphic Resonance for Truth began to tell his that Lucifer's argument was True. If Michael Fell, it would indeed have a powerful effect on all of the other Archangels,, but not for the reasons already discussed. All of the Archangels would have to ask themselves, if Michael, oldest and most powerful of the Seraphs, has now concluded that Lucifer was right all along, then can we ignore the possibility that we are fighting on the WRONG side? In a game of In Nomine Backwards, so to speak? Which brings us to Laurence's Fate. It seems to be generally assumed that since Malakim never Fall, then no matter what happens, Laurence and the other Malakim *must* continue fighting Hell. But though Laurence would never allow an Evil to live, he is capable of changing his mind about what is and is not Evil. And though Laurence would never surrender to Lucifer, there is a difference between surrendering to someone, and joining them of one's own free will. If Laurence concluded that working with Hell was the Honorable thing to do, he would have no choice but to join Hell. And finally, I think the reason Humans are so utterly important to the War is because we choose whether we will create the evidence that will prove Lucifer right, or the evidence that will prove him wrong. And that's a more important role than blowing up demonic Hearts. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:14:41 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Brown" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:12 AM Subject: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate Well... *damn*. That was good. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:28:16 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Ok, this is just a small suggestion for a "Michael Falls" scenario. I won't debate anything that's been covered before, but I will throw this little idea into the ring. Scene: Michael has turned Balseraph, and has just beaten Dominic within an inch of his Soul-life (he wants to put him on "Trial" later as payback), has knocked out most of the other Archangels, and now only the battered and bruised Laurence, David, Janus, Gabriel and Novalis (Who's still trying to talk Michael out of it) are standing before him. Michael sneers and checks the edge of his axe, while Laurence just stands before his fallen mentor and says: "You can't win this, Michael... God won't let you... -There's nothing you can do to stop me, Laurence... You can't stop me; No One can! -How about I try?" Everyone turns to Jacob's Ladder, and all go wide eyed, as they see a White armored Malakite holding a golding Flaming sword, standing at the foot of the Ladder. Michael snaps out of it first, and finally stammers: "Uriel!?" Laurence just grins and gets into a fighting position again. Maybe... just maybe... they had a chance after all... /Scene Ok, now that's just a wild idea, I'm not even sure if it would happen or not, or if Uriel is anything close to a match to Michael, or even if Uriel is more then just a reliever in the Higher Heavens now... But if we're debating unlikely events like Michael falling, why not this? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:17:18 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi & Whaling >And the whalers are not killing for the purposes Jordi champions. >They do not kill out of hunger, the need to eat now... they killed >to burn their oil, use their bones, render their meat. They kill for >convenience, or kill for fun. They do not kill out of the dance of >predator and prey, but out of... Economics. That's rather debatable, though. The whaler's aren't killing for the pleasure of it (though that may be a motivating factor in choosing such an occupation), but rather for the material benefits to be reaped from the kill, like any predator. And,one must admit that whalers didn't waste much of what they took. Oil, bones, meat, baleen plates, tusks, ambergris--just about anything they got out of a whale was used. Of course, there's all they whales they fatally injured but failed to catch, which amounts to a huge waste, and which would probably piss Jordi off... - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:31 +0000 From: Kay Dekker Subject: Re: IN> Sinister allegations Moe scribeth: > I am a sample unit of the set known as "humans". > I am left-handed. > Mercurians are designed to emulate humans. > Mercurians are a large subset of the set known as > "angels". > A sample unit of the set known as "angels" can thus be > safely assumed to be left-handed. I don't think the logic is too spurious, if my understanding of Vessels isn't too flawed, at least. Celestials have Vessels so that they can mingle fairly unnoticed among the mundanes (including animals, plants, and the odd toaster), yes? To do this sensibly, the designer of a Vessel would have to make it plausibly human (etc), and, more generally, Vessels all in all can't have _blatant_ oddities that would distinguish them from mundanes. Hence the careful provision of bellybuttons (with the due proportion of innies to outies, I assume). Similarly, hair colour, eye colour, heights; cultural properties such as hair length and style, piercings, tattooings, circumcisions, appendicectomy scars, etceteree etceteraa; all in due proportion to how frequently they should occur among mundanes in the appropriate locale on Earth. I suppose that nowadays Vessels even have donatable blood, PCRable DNA, brains that light up properly under PET scans. If not, I suspect that Vapula would find that very interesting, and rather useful. So I'd be _very_ surprised if the proper proportions of Vessels weren't left-handed. Hm. If one were to use a Song of Possession on someone of the other handedness, would the possessed person apparently switch hand dominance? Kay PS: if bellybutton lint is placed there by Imps, as I firmly believe, are Angels less likely to have fluffy navels? Those with innies, at least... - -- Punishment is its own reward ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 00:16:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi's ire (was STUFF!) On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, William J. Keith wrote: > She's Anaiel, a Malakite of Fire. He's Benjamin, an Elohite of Judgment. What an interesting team-up! Good idea... though I *like* the thought of Elohim going overboard, this would make for an interesting encounter... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Jesus, this whole church is a fuckin law-suit waiting to happen..." -- Rev. Jesus B. Christ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:08:11 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Jordi & Whaling At 4:17 PM -0600 11/4/00, Santiago wrote: >>And the whalers are not killing for the purposes Jordi champions. >>They do not kill out of hunger, the need to eat now... they killed >>to burn their oil, use their bones, render their meat. They kill >>for convenience, or kill for fun. They do not kill out of the dance >>of predator and prey, but out of... Economics. > > That's rather debatable, though. The whaler's aren't killing >for the pleasure of it (though that may be a motivating factor in >choosing such an occupation), but rather for the material benefits >to be reaped from the kill, like any predator. I say again -- Economic factors. Marc might not have a problem with Whaling, because he can see how the materials of the whale can bring products and peoples together (read the "We light the world" monologue from Moby Dick for what I'm talking about). Jordi doesn't care a thing for economic factors, however. That's a human delusion. Jordi believes that animals die so other animals can live -- not so they could be made more comfortable. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:44:14 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> So..... Is the "Michael's Contests" thread officially over? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! GET SOME SLACK, CREATE SOME SLACK, OR DIE THESE ARE YOUR *ONLY* CHOICES -- St. Bubba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:05:42 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> So..... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" To: "In Nomine Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 12:44 AM Subject: IN> So..... > > Is the "Michael's Contests" thread officially over? DON'T CALL IT A CONTEST! HOW *DARE* YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! IT RUINS THE FUN FOR EVERYBODY WHEN YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! Mmmmmm.... no, it *isn't* any more fun when the giving and receiving ends are switched. You wonder why Habbalites are always smiling. Anyway... to answer your question as originally asked, no, I don't think they are. I mean, we still haven't gotten that 'Humorous David' story somebody mentioned, plus the Baal-and-Beleth ones are unfinished, and wasn't their supposed to have been a second half to Michael-and-Blandine? *shrug* Well, we'll see what happens. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 23:19:27 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> So..... "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > > Is the "Michael's Contests" thread officially over? Who decides when something like that is "officially" over? If you want to write another one, I doubt anyone is going to say "Sorry, you can't post it, time's up!" ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:06:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> So..... On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Charles Glasgow wrote: > > Is the "Michael's Contests" thread officially over? > > > DON'T CALL IT A CONTEST! HOW *DARE* YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! IT RUINS THE > FUN FOR EVERYBODY WHEN YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! > I didn't call it a contest. I called it a thread. > Mmmmmm.... no, it *isn't* any more fun when the giving and receiving ends > are switched. You wonder why Habbalites are always smiling. u r 2 sensitive. > Anyway... to answer your question as originally asked, no, I don't think > they are. I mean, we still haven't gotten that 'Humorous David' story > somebody mentioned, plus the Baal-and-Beleth ones are unfinished, and wasn't > their supposed to have been a second half to Michael-and-Blandine? Ayup. I was hoping my comment would spur it on. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "the toll to arrive within dumbassia's boundaries is steep, but one is free to leave at any time." -- kevbob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 23:32:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> So..... Charles Glasgow wrote: > > DON'T CALL IT A CONTEST! HOW *DARE* YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! IT RUINS THE> FUN FOR EVERYBODY WHEN YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! > Actually, I believe the quotation marks around "Michael's Contests" clearly referred to the name of the stories, not the writing that produced them. - -David, only occasionally a Habbalite ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:21:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> So..... On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > Charles Glasgow wrote: > > > > DON'T CALL IT A CONTEST! HOW *DARE* YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! IT RUINS THE> FUN FOR EVERYBODY WHEN YOU CALL IT A CONTEST! > > > > Actually, I believe the quotation marks around "Michael's Contests" > clearly referred to the name of the stories, not the writing that > produced them. Yep. And he said "Habbalites", too. One more strike, and I say we string him up. I got a rope. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:31:05 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 > Kyrios of Jordi *triple* their forces for the purposes of possessing >things/animals/people. .. Eh? I was under the impression that Kyrios of Jordi multiply their forces by their corporeal forces, and only when possessing insects... > does >anyone think there should be an Angel of Dinosaurs? Yes, but it's counter canon. The Word should have died when the last dinosaur died. However this is IMO wrong, as there are dinosaurs roaming the Savannah; why should a Word disappear completely just because it disappears from Earth? It can still be maintained elsewhere. Probably the WordBound would lose their Corporeal Forces, but both Heaven & Hell should have WordBound who maintain their Words via the Dead Souls. A boy is a man in training - but still just a boy, easily hurt. A man is a knight in training - but still just a man, just muddling through; A knight is a saint in training - but still just a knight, proud and rash. A saint is a friend of God - and still just a boy, who needs his friend. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:36:28 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 > NC >>Claws on the whole swarm. Sorry Guys; NC only affects one host; check the writeup on Kyrios in LC. Still, it's one way to stop people eating live food. Possess an oyster; after being swallowed invoke NC: Spines & NC: Plates. - -Season to taste? James. A boy is a man in training - but still just a boy, easily hurt. A man is a knight in training - but still just a man, just muddling through; A knight is a saint in training - but still just a knight, proud and rash. A saint is a friend of God - and still just a boy, who needs his friend. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:45:55 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 >don't all the animals go to jordi's region? i'd imagine wandering in and >attempting to shear/milk any of the animals would be a quick way to get a >Superior jumping on your head Spot the city boy. Sheep need to be shorn, cows need to be milked; they've been bred for it. Either angels or Blessed will have to look after them (unless Jordi does a rebuild job on each). I imagine Jordi and Novalis have gome to some sort of arrangement for looking after/exploiting the souls of domesticated animals. - --James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:26:34 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Michael against Heaven I've tried to cull this a bit, however >> 2) Falling is - to both Laurence and Michael (and Qui-gon & Kenobi) - a >> sign of weakness. >Errr... yup. Baal like *so* wimped out when he Fell. So did Lucifer. They lost! >Falling is *not* a sign of weakness to Michael. It's a sign you've changed >allegiance. No, that you're wrong. "Baal - he's wrong". And to a Seraph, Truth is power. >> An exploitable flaw >I disagree, because Michael doesn't fall for stuff like this even when he's >a *good* guy. When he's a bad guy? This is not the fallen Archangel of >Valor we're talking about here... 'even'? as a Seraph, you can't lie to Michael, and he doesn't lie to himself. As a Balseraph, however.. > >The only problem is, that only works if *everybody in the group* has the >Brotherhood attunement -- and while Superiors have every one of their own >attunements, they don't have every one of everyone else's. [raised eyebrow] - So, David can't do this because the others don't have one of his Attunements. His handing out his Attunements is a problem how? > >> Truly, and if he faces Michael one on one, he'll die. However: > >> 1)that duel was when Laurence was a newbie - really a minor Superior with >a >> big job. He'll have grown a lot since then. > >a) The Angel of the Sword's individual sword skills were honed to their >finest edge before he became a Superior. Remember, he was damn near the >Perfect Malakite. What new stuff Laurence has been learning while on the >job has been how to lead and organize, not how to fight. He has been learning how to be a Superior - including how to use a Superiors' powers. > >> 2) Laurence is the patron of Soldiers - and Soldiers are team players. >No, he's the patron of Knights. Bit of a difference. >And War is not just loners -- War is the patron of those people who can both >fight alone *and* in teams. (Remember what Michael does to Servitors who >screw up missions because they couldn't co-ordinate well with others.) The write-up on Michael says otherwise. Also, that was David's one concern - -that Michael thinks that he can go it alone. > >> The clash is Michael (I can split them up!) against Laurence & David (we >can >> unite!). The two Heavely Words would be able to link. And then hook in >> everyone else. >Only if David can hand out a new attunement in nanoseconds -- 'cause they >don't got it now. If a lesser Wordbound can do so in a round, I don't see why not. ( And they may have it! After the deaths of Oannes & Raphael, precautions will have been taken.) >> >And with that huge grudge, plus the threat of the Warder distinction >(clever >> >tactic, though), Dominic's going *first*... > >> Oh yes, poor old Dominc is toast. Imagine how guilty God would feel - >> 'You're dead because I wouldn't let you convict the arrogant traitor - oh >> Dominic I am so sorry....' > >a) this doesn't respond to the main problem here - - true, this is just my mind wandering... > >b) if he wasn't guilty at the time, then he wasn't guilty -- since everyone >potentially has both a Destiny and a Fate, you don't convict someone because >of what he did to achieve his Fate until after he achieves it - - he was guilty > >c) This is a pretty big hint from God that Michael's probably not going to >Fall, ever. Truly. > >> >I mean, if Michael ever Falls, the first warning that it happened at all >is >> >going to be when Dark Michael jumps out of the coat closet and cuts >> >Dominic's head off. Just to pay back old grudges. As well as worry >about >> >that Warder attunement (*very* clever idea there, by the way). > >> Thanks for the compliments, but do you really think that Dominc wouldn't >> pick Michael's Fall? > >In a word -- yes. Superior-on-Superior ineffability > >> It is his job, after all, and as a Seraph Michael will >> find it very difficult to hide the warning signs. > >Plus, Superior-on-Superior ineffability. When Superior goes vs. Superior, >the effectiveness of their resonances is determined by which one is one up >on the power scale from the other. Given that Michael > Dominic... No it's not actually. Determined by whose Word covers the contest. (GMG). A fight Michael will win; a Judgement Dominc will win. > >And finally, if you read Superiors 1 you will see that while Michael can't >stand Dominic, Dominic has no especial suspicions of Michael. Yes; Dominc will be continually reading the Truth of Michael's loyalty. The moment that changes... > >> >they still won't know *which* Superior Fell until *after* the screaming >> >starts... > >> True, but they'll know where. > >a) I don't think Falling causes disturbance by itself. If you're looking >at the Heart when it shatters, you know. Otherwise, you don't know until >you see your buddy's new celestial self. > >b) Celestial Song Of Motion. Michael can be standing behind Dominic while >Dominic is still spending his first combat round making his Perception roll >to figure out where that noise is coming from. As said, poor old Dominc is toast. > >> >And while the Light Of Heaven will crisp your average demon in >> >short order, Demon Princes can last a while. > >> Granted. But it will make him easier to take down. > >Which is why, if I were Michael, I'd make sure that the Archangels I whacked >while on my way out the door were *not* the combatant types.. sure, if Dark >Michael takes Laurence and David and Janus head-on, he's not going to get >much of anywhere. > >But he doesn't need to. The *combat* capacity of Heaven has already taken a >major loss, simply because they've already lost Michael. Where I'd >concentrate my axe strokes is on > >Oh, I'm an idiot! I just realized exactly how Michael could do this -- >because one of the top three Archangels Heaven can most afford to lose *does >not live entirely within Heaven*. > >"Hi, Lucifer, I'm here to serve Hell now. BTW, I left Heaven via >Blandine's tower and hiked across the Marches. So for my entrance gift, >I've got a little something for Beleth..." > >*tosses Blandine's battered, comatose, but still-living form to the ground* > >(or, if that's too difficult, just tosses her head to the ground) > >"Have fun, girls." > >Losing Blandine is a *major* problem for Heaven. What chance of achieving >your Destiny when nobody on Earth can sleep peacefully anymore? When Dreams >die, hope dies. Okay, simple question - if he can do this, why hasn't he taken out Beleth? Allow me to finish the above conversation. [Ethereal realm fades away from around Michael - battered form of Blandine and Lucifer included. He is surrounded by all the Archangels(including an unhurt Blandine) and still in Blandines' Tower.] Dominc: "Guilty" - [Pins with Warder] All of the warrior Archangels charge. Splat. >> >And if they can't? OK then. He leaves. >> >And then Dark Michael puts out a sign staying "You can't win the war if >> >you're hiding in Heaven all the time -- and anything that sticks a nose >> >outside of it, I'm cutting the whole head off. Don't like it? Try >>and>make >> >me stop. >> >Correction -- make *US* stop." > >> That's a good sum up. At which point Marc says "Pity about poor old >Dominc, >> but now that he's gone, > >The reason I picked Dominic to kill is now Heaven's going to have a slight >long-term problem with Internal Corruption... Maybe. Or maybe the reason Michael doesn't like him is that he does more harm than good! Besides, every AA has an Internal Security force. > >> does anyone object to alliances with Demon Princes? > >A strategic move this obvious is easily foreseeable by Michael -- it's what >*he'd* do, after all. So, since Dark Michael does some things backwards, >*he'd* ally with The Game... after all, if he's already whacked Dominic, >then Azzy owes him a great big favor. > >Plus, who are the Princes most likely to ally with Heaven? Andrealphus, >Nybbas, Fleurity, etc. -- the "If humanity dies or the War is over, I lose" >types. Maybe Lilith. >IOW, nobody who Michael couldn't butcher if he felt the need. And would >Lucifer care? Most likely not -- if the balance of power shifts to where >Armageddon is now clearly winnable for Hell, anybody who acts to delay or >prevent that will feel Lucifer's wrath. Sure Michael could & would butcher any he catches, and he'll work with the Game to catch them; but each one butchered is one Heaven doesn't have to deal with. > >[snip] >> Almost as much as the Fall of the Malakim. But he's probably still kicking >> himself about that. "I was a fool to be afraid last time - won't give in >to >> fear this time". >Not giving in to fear is not the same thing as not feeling it. Sort of...embarrassment is a form of fear, and the memory of embarrassment can prevent fear..it's all very strange. > >> >And then he'll spit in Lucifer's general direction, look at Laurence, and >> >say 'Well, at least we can still take *some* of them with us...' " >> > >> Or even "Can't think of a winning strategy at this point > >*You* couldn't. *I* couldn't. > >Moe, OTOH... owowowowowowowwww! Brain hurts! You and me both. Isn't Moe scary! Still, this is a good point to raise (or raze!) another way of nailing Hell. Hell is built on the rubble from the top of Gabriels' mountain. The rest of the mountain is still there. Meteor strikes must be part of Gabriels' Word - especially the 'depopulate planet' ones. Gabriel finally snaps, and pushes the mountain off the side of Heaven; being Ofanite makes sure trajectory is ideal for impact on Hell... I'm figuring Heaven wouldn't like this very much, as the devastation could affect earth by exploding all of the infernal tethers. But would Gabriel care? Another unpleasant side effect is that Hearts cannot leave Heaven; they'll have to stay behind, giving every Gabrielite a point of dissonance for Heart leaving Superiors realm. Much messiness. (Hey, the Final Trumpet is supposed to be blown when the Champions duel 'amongst the flames'!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 08:27:23 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> So..... > > > Anyway... to answer your question as originally asked, no, I don't think > > they are. I mean, we still haven't gotten that 'Humorous David' story > > somebody mentioned, plus the Baal-and-Beleth ones are unfinished, Oh, someone else asked me to drop it cos they were doing Beleth, I thought :) jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 2000 08:45:16 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1902 On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:50:15 -0800 James Walker wrote: >>>[snip] very moving, Chuck, but i believe James had more... racy... things >>>in mind. no offense, James. >there's simply a euphemism you're >>>overlooking, Chuck, specifically one for male anatomy... and the >>>>predeliction of Lilim for following Malakim butts . >None taken, Kish. For eight months, I had a Lilim in my game whose sole aim >in life was to redeem so that she could get into Laurence's pants.* >It's no wonder that his Master Attunement allows him to say 'NO'. He'd >never get any work done, otherwise! >*And on reflection, I shouldn't have let Eli handle the redemption. But it >seemed like a good idea at the time...... heh, cute story about your Lilim. just one quibble: i'm not Kish. i'm -=|horsefly|=- :) nothing involving Eli is a bad idea, btw ;;;) -=|horsefly|=- Happiness is a laser designator and a friend in the artillery battalion. --Clayton A. Oliver ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 2000 09:09:25 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Servitors of Stone and practice fights On Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:23:37 GMT Janet Anderson wrote: >Seeing that there's a War on, angels probably spend at least part of their >time in drill, sparring, martial arts training, and other forms of practice >fighting. Not just Servitors of War and the Sword, but probably *any* angel >except Servitors of Flowers and maybe Trade. > >Now, how do Servitors of Stone manage this, given their Dissonance >conditions? Do practice fights not count toward Dissonance? Do they have i would say even practice fights count toward dissonance if a Servitor of Stone throws the first punch/attacks first. after all, if someone is initiating combat--even to practice--that gets them into a mindset (or can lead to the wrong mindset) David abhors. >to wait until their opponent moves -- which not only puts them at a tactical >disadvantage but means that two Servitors of Stone can't ever practice with >each other? Servitors of Stone are *always* at a tactical disadvantage. they *must* fight defensively, and they tragically can only begin fighting once someone (hopefully an angel) has been attacked. the best first move an angel of Stone can take, imho, is to throw itself in front of the attacker, especially to shield someone else. in terms of practice battles, it's not difficult to arrange another angel of Stone to act as referee: "Okay, you two: fight!" and both can begin without disonnance. >And how do they train others in the art of self-defense, which is one of >their most important duties, if they can't attack their students in order to >teach them to defend themselves? what are a martial artist instructor's two favorite words to incoming students, throughout the majority of the students' early years? "Hit me." the instructor then demonstrates the defensive maneuver on the student, to a crowd of other students. each of them will try to hit the teacher, hopefully learning from each of the prior attempts while also learning what the teacher is doing to block the attacks. once the lesson has been instilled, an instructor typically pairs up students to practice on each other. -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.