From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Nov 5 21:34:35 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11041 for ; Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:34:34 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA16453 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:34:10 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:34:10 -0600 Message-Id: <200011060334.VAA16453@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1907 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1907 In this digest: Re:IN> So..... Re:IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 Re: IN> So..... IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... IN> Rambling about the beginning of it all... IN> Servitors of Stone and martial arts practice Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Re: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate IN> Re: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... Re: IN> Boo Re: IN> Michael against Heaven Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... Re: IN> Michael against Heaven IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Nov 2000 09:28:45 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> So..... On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:44:14 "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > >Is the "Michael's Contests" thread officially over? hey, if you have something to post, Rev--do it! i'm itching to read more. i'm also mulling over a challenge from Vapula... but i've gotta refine it lots before i post it. -=|horsefly|=- If I ever wanted to say 'gwrthwynebiad', I'd probably kill myself by choking on my own tongue. =) - --John Karakash ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 2000 09:33:52 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:31:05 -0800 James Walker wrote: >> Kyrios of Jordi *triple* their forces for the purposes of possessing >>things/animals/people. .. >Eh? I was under the impression that Kyrios of Jordi multiply their forces >by their corporeal forces, and only when possessing insects... yes, i found the Corporeal Forces multiplier at Beth's mention. as far as what they can possess with that multiplied number of Forces, i was given to believe it was anything a normal Kyriotate could possess; additionally, Kyrios of Animals are the only Dominations who can posssess swarms of insects (whereas other Kyrios can possess a single insect per Force, or maybe can't possess insects at all--can't remember at the moment). -=|horsefly|=- Happiness is a laser designator and a friend in the artillery battalion. --Clayton A. Oliver ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:50:15 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 From: "James Walker" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 > Spot the city boy. Sheep need to be shorn, cows need to be milked; they've > been bred for it. Either angels or Blessed will have to look after them > (unless Jordi does a rebuild job on each). I imagine Jordi and Novalis have > gome to some sort of arrangement for looking after/exploiting the souls of > domesticated animals. wild sheep and cattle don't need to be shorn/milked. i doubt that jordi would set up farms in his region of heaven just to keep agriculture going. i always assumed that once you're dead and in heaven your physical functions are irrelevant. after all, you're no longer corporeal. souls don't have to eat, or sleep, or take a dump. a heaven where people have to get their hair cut sounds sort of freaky to me. so i would have thought sheep wouldn't *need* to be shorn. maybe they *could* be, but like i said, i don't think jordi would be up for "exploiting the souls of deomesticated animals" as you put it liam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:28:46 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> So..... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 1:21 AM Subject: Re: IN> So..... > Yep. > > And he said "Habbalites", too. > > One more strike, and I say we string him up. > > I got a rope. You'll never take me alive, you dirty Gamesters! BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA! - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:10:49 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... No, it's not one of *those* threads... I was just flipping through Lilith's writeup, and I was thinking that the concept of being 'bound' to Freedom's dissonance conditions didn't make any sense to me -- after all, isn't Lilith all about not having to put up with somebody else's stupid rules? Of being bound only by those particular case-by-case agreements you wanted to be bound by? So here's my own unofficial, non-canon, totally-optional, I-just-made-it-up-myself [1] alterations to Lilith's writeup, just as suggestions... =============== DISSONANCE CONDITIONS: None. If you're a Lilim and you're not Bound to any other Prince, then you've chosen the same path that your Mother has chosen... to serve only as you Choose, when you Choose, where you Choose. Have fun. However, as with everything else for a free Lilim, there is a price to pay... RITES: None. Your Mother worked and dealt hard for every single bit of Essence she's ever gotten, and you're going to do the same. No freebies. If you want a Rite, cut a deal with some other demon to learn one of his. Free Lilim can actually buy Rites at reasonable rates... after all, most Princes have realized that giving a Free one of their rites is a good way to eventually lead them into their service, or at the very least to have the Free out there promoting their word at least *part* of their time. Andrealphus is known to be particularly generous in this regard... at least as far as his "Spend half an hour etc." Rite. Then again, freedom *has* been defined as having the choice between working or starving... (Game notes -- what this means is that starting Lilim characters can have as many Rites as they want, from whatever Princes that they want... provided that they took a Geas/3 to that Prince in return for it. IOW, Rites cost the starting Lilim just as much as her Forces did, the only difference is . If DMs think that's too expensive, they can modify that to a Geas/2 from the relevant Prince (they're being generous, as the first step towards hooking the Lilim in) *or* a Geas/3 or Geas/4 from a *Servitor* of that Prince (i.e., she paid higher in return for learning the rite "on the sly").) Lilith, of course, doesn't mind that her daughters are learning Rites from other Princes -- it's *their* choice to, after all. And better that some other Prince have to fork out his Essence on a regular basis than her having to fork out any of hers. =============== Oh, and I'd change her Invocation Modifiers to: ============= Base Chance For Invocation -- 3 If you're a Lilim -- +3 (Lilith will deal with anybody... if she's not busy. But she's usually busy.) For every time you've called her in the past six months -- -1 per occasion, down to a maximum of -6. (This keeps Lilim from summoning Lilith all the time... sure, they can pop a 6 for Invocation without any other modifiers at all, but only if they haven't bugged Mom for a *long* time. And yes, this does mean that a Lilim at an Infernal Tether who's called her Mother half a dozen times in the past 6 months is going to be rolling vs. a 3 alone, and a 0 if she were away from the tether. Mother *hates* Daughters who keep bugging her all the time.) If you Geas yourself to her, promising the Geas simultaneous with the invocation -- +1 to +6, depending on the Geas. (And yes, that means that a Lilim promising a Geas/6 just for her Mother's time can *always* get Lilith to show up anywhere anytime... they are, after all, her Daughters, and any one of them that's willing to pay *that* much just to start a conversation has obviously got something *important* that Mother ought to know about. Besides, it's a free Geas on 'em just for showing up for a few minutes. This applies to all other celestials as well... Lilith *loves* having angels pop Geas/4 or Geas/5 or Geas/6 on themselves without her actually having to exert herself.) If you are at an Infernal Tether -- +3. And that's *it*. I'm especially thinking that Lilith should be exempt from the usual Universal Invocation Modifiers for "in the presence of enemy/enemy Superior/corporeal vessel at risk of death" thing... Lilith *doesn't care* if you're in a mess, you're supposed to take care of yourself... in return for being beholden only to yourself. That's her nature. That's her vision of Freedom. Lilith does not show up to bail you out of desperate fights, not unless you're willing to *doubly* pay through the nose for the privilege (i.e., to take the Geas hit just for the positive invocation modifier *in addition* to the heavy Geas she's going to charge for the bail-out). ============= The only drawback to this is, of course, the whole general "Rites are given to encourage Servitors to promote your Word, so they're really a net essence gain for the Superior involved", etc, etc. I'm handwaving this by saying that by setting it up this way, Lilith is setting things up so that the Free Lilim are promoting her Word enough anyway... and this way, she doesn't even have to pay them! Thoughts? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:22:07 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Rambling about the beginning of it all... Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:34:03 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! - - ----- Original Message -----From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 10:04 AM Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! >>Much as this debate amuses me (I think that there's >>at least one person arguing both sides), I feel >>constrained to point out that, in canon at least, >>that when Superior and non-Superior meet, non->>Superior is usually toast. >Ah, but it's a severe case of Fnord as to whether one >can *ever* become a non-Superior again, once one has >been a Superior. >Remember, before the Fall, non-Word-bound Superiors >did exist -- 'cause Michael didn't get his Word until >the Fall. But he's always been the buffest one around. >- --Chuckg Actually, I've been drawn by this entire debate to think about how the power levels have fluctuated over time, and why. Now, the below isn't the only way to explain the backstory, or even necessarily the _best_ way. It's just the way I've come up with explain away some stuff. If it doesn't work in a particular campaign, that's the theory's fault, not the campaign's. As always, feedback is begged for. I have no shame. :) Moe In The Beginning... ...God started the whole thing. He/ She / It / They / Whatever did the large bits, like the laws of physics, but crafting the smaller bits promised to be time consuming. So, God started crafting servants tasked with handling lesser issues like galaxy formation, cooling down gas giants, encouraging biospheres. Stuff like that. Granted, an omnipotent Creator could do that stuff too, but just because you _can_ do something doesn't mean that you particularly _want_ to. Now, these servants (angels, for those needing a hint) weren't all that powerful on their own, but they didn't have to be. They could tap into the pure power of (God/the Symphony/Creation: take your pick) and direct the flow. Why bother increasing your own personal mojo when you've got all the juice you'll ever need at your fingertips? God wasn't keeping an eye on the meter, either, so you could use it when and how you liked. Some angels took this opportunity to play around with their own hobbies and inclinations. Some others used it to help them do their jobs better. Unfortunately, some used it to fuel their Rebellion. Lucifer was honestly infuriated at the idea that a bunch of corporeals could be considered _equal_ to entities that helped construct the universe itself, and did his level best to convince the rest of Heaven. When it got to the point of open rebellion, God (and the loyal angels) didn't see much choice but to shut off _everybody's_ flow of juice. The celestial plane would have been shattered, otherwise. So, everyone did the first Revolt with whatever oomph they happened to have when it started. Uriel and David figured out a way to get around that, incidentally: they did the equivalent of a short circuit, burning out their celestial "capacitors" in exchange for a relatively short-term access to lots and lots of power. The annals of Heaven talk about the rise of the Malakim: what _isn't_ mentioned is the bunch of other celestials who tried different methods to boost themselves and either perished in the attempt, or ended up nonviable. Anyway, when Lucifer and Michael fought, they were running on their own power. It came down to superior fighting skill... and Lucifer had always concentrated on administration. Lucifer got kicked out, the rest of the rebels retreated, and Heaven sat down to assess the damage. God had decided that, now that the universe was up and running, further access to direct Divine power wasn't needed, or particularly desirable. However, the assembled angels discovered that the most powerful of them could tap into the Symphony. Needless to say, this wouldn't give them anything like the same might as before, and the linkage would alter the angel permanently. For example, before the Fall Dominic was simply an angel that liked to mediate disputes. He was good at it, and had a flair for tapping into Divine power in ways that would help solve other's arguments, but he had other hobbies. _After_ the Fall, Dominic had to rewrite himself so that he could tap into one fragment of power generated by the Symphony. He chose Judgement, and became its personification, in exchange for ever caring equally about anything else again. This wasn't a easy call, and quite a few of the Host refused to make the upgrade. Meanwhile, down in Hell, the Rebels (having quite some time to think things through), came up with the same idea independently. However, they discovered that, in order to tap into the Symphony at all, they would have to warp their essential natures just enough to leech even a limited amount power. It took a _lot_ of experimentation before the Bands of demons were created in their final forms. Hell doesn't talk about that much. Neither side has ever fully recovered their lost levels of potency. They haven't even come close: it took Heaven twenty thousand years before they were strong enough to attack the ethereal pantheons (who never took Heaven's claim of superiority seriously, as they couldn't understand how beings who supposedly created the universe couldn't simply wave their enemies out of existence). Today, the two opposing sides are powerful, yes, but one pre-Fall angel could have annihilated them both in a second. Both sides dimly remember that they want the juice again, however: the angels, because they can then go back to perfecting Creation, and the demons, because they remember the raw power available, and their flawed psyche doesn't let them comprehend that God won't let them have any, even if they overrun Heaven. Lucifer apparently thinks that he might be able, if he takes the whole thing, to persuade God otherwise: the arrival of Kronos in the grand scheme of things is possibly an indication that he just might be right about that, at least. After all, if humanity _isn't_ worth the trouble, then maybe the rebels had a point. It wouldn't be fair to deprive workers of their tools, just because they were loyal enough to protest an unfair ruling, right? ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 22:30:42 GMT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Servitors of Stone and martial arts practice I have before me *Superiors 1*, which says the following: "David often sends angels whose unarmed technique needs 'polishing' to old and nasty Malakim of Stone. This experience can harrow even a Virtue, making the training sequences in a martial arts movie look both realistic and gentle in comparison. It also produces a rapid improvement in skill." (p. 28) This seems to answer my question about whether two Servitors of Stone could spar with each other without Dissonance (since *one* of them has to make the first move). And since it says both in the core rules and in *Superiors 1* that Servitors of Stone, especially Elohim and Malakim, train humans in self-defense, I'm inclined to believe that practice fighting, sparring, weapons drills, etc. do not count toward Dissonance conditions. I appreciate the response of the person who claims that martial arts teachers don't have to move first to teach their students, but there is a problem with this: if the student *always* starts, he'll never learn what to do when the other guy starts first -- which is, after all, the point of studying with a Servitor of Stone. Also, attacking a Servitor of Stone's party or a Cherub of Stone's attuned counts as an attack on the angel, at which time the angel may attack without requiring a specific opponent swinging at him in particular, i.e. if demon A attacks human B, who is the attuned of Cherub of Stone C, then Cherub C can attack Demon A without Dissonance even though Demon A is not directly attacking him. The same if angels A, B, and C are walking along and demons D and E attack angel A (because he's in front) and demon F attacks angel B. Angel C, Servitor of Stone, happily wades in -- without Dissonance -- to help Angel A, despite the fact that he was last in line and temporarily unnoticed (and therefore unattacked) by any of the demons. So Servitors of Stone, and their students, would need to have the knowledge and skill to charge into the fray on the unusual occasions when it was appropriate. (Responses from official canon interpreters would be appreciated.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:31:25 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:00:37 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> laying odds on Micheal against Heaven! >You know, all of this presumes that Michael is >psyched and wholeheartedly given over to Hell in the >first instants after Falling - -- instead of being >horrified that he's suddenly, painfully become >the opposite of all he believes, all he has *been* >since the literal beginning of time. >I'm thinking first he'll look up, throw his arms in >the air a la the Devil in the Night on Bald >Mountain/Ave Maria sequence in Fantasia, beg to know >**WHY?**, and then be driven back by the Light of >Heaven that had always been a comfort, falling down >to Earth or Hell, where he collects himself, and >begins to quietly take stalk, to mourn, to be angry, >to justify, to resonate himself, and to build himself >towards the mindset of a Demon Prince. >In the meantime, Heaven will be freaking, but also >building themselves up.- -- _Good_ point. Here's another thought: what if he goes and _hides_? It's been known to happen to the Fallen, after all. That'll have _everybody_ freaking, and turning over every stone looking for him. A lot will depend on who finds him first.* Moe *Especially if the first one who finds him is, I don't know, say, somebody from an ethereal pantheon. "Kicked out of Heaven and can't stand Hell, huh? Buddy, let's talk about the wonders of The Third Option..." ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:42:02 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:14:41 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Brown" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:12 AM Subject: IN> Michael and Laurence's Fate >Well... *damn*. >That was good. >- --Chuckg Yup. If you're playing IN Backwards, that's an excellent, well reasoned, way to look at things. "Smuggling human infiltrators into Hell to blow up Hearts" isn't IN Backwards, however: in fact, it would be an aggravating intrusion to stick that scenario into a game played through the Backward Lens. To mangle Eric's term, the scenario I suggested is explicitly definable as apt for IN Tartan Color Scheme. My apologies for not making it clear. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:04:38 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:36:28 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1904 >>NC Claws on the whole swarm. >Sorry Guys; NC only affects one host; check the >writeup on Kyrios in LC. >Still, it's one way to stop people eating live food. >Possess an oyster; after being swallowed invoke NC: >Spines & NC: Plates. >--Season to taste? >James. God, that's twisted*. You'll need a Song that could neutralize stomach acid, of course: Celestial Song of Motion might not be a bad call, either**. :) *I mean that as a compliment, of course. :) **Or even Corporeal Song of Shields and Corporeal Song of Motion. "GAAANNNGGGGWAYYYY!" (Cue *Alien* stock footage here) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 15:24:10 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... I can't picture that Lilith has ANY qualms about bonding someone who accepts the bond. The whole geas thing... Really, bonding someone to her dissonance conditions is just like an ongoing geas to "Not do ." That is my opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:30:18 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean McCarthy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 5:24 PM Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... > I can't picture that Lilith has ANY qualms about bonding someone who > accepts the bond. The whole geas thing... > > Really, bonding someone to her dissonance conditions is just like an > ongoing geas to "Not do ." > > That is my opinion. Well, yes, but what does *Lilith* get out of the deal? In return for binding someone to her dissonance restrictions, Lilith gets... .. errrr... .. it's not like she has regular Servitors *anyway*, so... .. heck, I'm stumped. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:43:43 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... From: Charles Glasgow <> Her Word promoted. In Lilith's case, at least, the Rites do involve overtly advancing the Word of Freedom. In fact, that's pretty much what they are--"For extra Essence, further Lilith's Word." - -- Kish ICQ#: 28085879 AIM: Kish K M Kish_K@mindspring.replacewithcom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:02:30 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Boo Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:55:48 -0600From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Boo. From: "Maurice Lane" >> Christine >> Ofanite Friend of Sleepers> Angel of the Genre of >> Horror >Nice work! Thanks. I seem to like writing up Angels of various genres. Maybe a Servitor of Stone for Fantasy? >(Although I do have to admit my disappointment at not >seeing a red Plymouth Fury as one of her vessels, but >I can get over that. *g*) Oh, I was tempted... except that working out the stats for a car was something I just didn't feel like tackling.* Of course, if some Jean- or Vapuphile out there wants to do a major expansion along those lines, well, who am I to ignore unusual-but-useful source material? :) Moe *Heh. A Car Wars / In Nomine crossover. _That'd_ be fun to see. :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:29:14 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Michael against Heaven Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:26:34 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Michael against Heaven >Another unpleasant side effect is that Hearts cannot >leave Heaven; they'll have to stay behind, giving >every Gabrielite a point of dissonance for Heart >leaving Superiors realm. Much messiness. Under the circumstances, I'd feel generous and not charge the dissonance. After all, sending down a couple trillion cubic tons of Principality as a beachhead could be considered not removing said Principality from Heaven so much as establishing Heaven... elsewhere.* ;) Moe *Besides, think about the rush as you go down. You might actually even experience a Doppler shift. "GGGGEERRRRRAAANNNNIMMMMMOOOOO!!!!....." :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:15:34 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kish" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:43 PM Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on Lilith's writeup... > From: Charles Glasgow > > < for binding someone to her dissonance restrictions, Lilith gets...>> > > Her Word promoted. > > In Lilith's case, at least, the Rites do involve overtly advancing the > Word of Freedom. In fact, that's pretty much what they are--"For > extra Essence, further Lilith's Word." Well, it can be argued whether or not Lilith's Word would be amply furthered enough without her actually having to pay Essence for it on a 1-for-1 basis (heck, that way lies the argument as to what Lilith's Word really *is*... although most of Lilith's basic Rites as is would look better on the Angel Of Liberation than they would on the Demon-Affiliated Princess of Freedom)... .. but even *without* that argument, we still have this question... Why the *dissonance* conditions? "For 1 point of Essence, further Lilith's Word" is a simple transaction -- you do the Rite, Mom gets helped out and in return she gives you 1 point of Essence. You don't do the Rite, you don't get the Essence. Inflicting dissonance for accepting captivity doesn't really have a place in this -- if the Lilim does the Rite, she gets the essence. If she sits around on her lazy duff and doesn't do anything, then she gets bupkis. Plus, Lilith never had a problem with any Daughter who Chose to bind herself to a Prince (in effect, selling herself into bondage)... so why should she care if one of her 'Free' Daughters accepts a lesser form of bondage? (Which is her dissonance condition). If the Lilim *wants* to be bonded, that's her icky and distasteful choice, and Mother will simply go her own way while the Lilim goes hers. Or, if the Daughter's acceptance of imprisonment is messing up a specific task that Lilith assigned that particular Lilim, Mother will make her displeasure known in more direct ways (much like any other Demon Prince confronted with a failing Servitor). And if the Lilim doesn't want to be bonded... well, she can get herself out of trouble. Free Daughters take care of themselves. And it's not like it's wildly game unbalancing to do it this way -- servitors of Creation have free access to Rites but no Superior dissonance conditions whatsoever, and they pay for it by being on the low end of the angelic status pole and extra attention from Judgement. Ditto for Free Lilim... their mother's laissez-faire presence protects them from outright rapine and butchery, but any more subtle way of screwing over a Free Daughter is considered to be her own problem... and, of course, the Game is always lurking around suspiciously... Maybe it's just that I can't get my brain around the concept of the Word of Freedom having a rigid stricture of behavior that's punishable on pain of dissonance... - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:19:44 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Michael against Heaven - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 7:29 PM Subject: Re: IN> Michael against Heaven > *Besides, think about the rush as you go down. You > might actually even experience a Doppler shift. > > > "GGGGEERRRRRAAANNNNIMMMMMOOOOO!!!!....." > > :) Sorry, that's more properly pronounced... "AIR-BOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNEEEEEE!!!!" :) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:04:32 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" Things bubble and cook, under the smooth surface of my brain. Sometimes they come up when finished, and I can feel them on their passage up to conscious thought. Sometimes they don't. This was one of them. Serious, it ain't. Interesting to see... well, obviously _I_ think so, or I wouldn't be sticking it here. Hope y'all like. :) Moegiel Kyriotate of Destiny in Service to Dreams ("You making Big Shiny Wing Lady With Good Sleepstuff Lock Door in Tower and CRY! HULK SMASH! HULK SMASH! HULK SMASH!") It's been the talk of Heaven, lately. The Archangel of the Sword has been acting somewhat, well, oddly. He's been seen conferring with as many Catholic and Christian blessed soul-theologians and clergy that he could find, pushing himself in training, and generally being somewhat snappish and edgy. Nobody has any real idea what's going on, but Laurence obviously has something fairly important on his mind, and he can't see how to resolve it. Actually, gossip doesn't know the half of it. Laurence does have something important to worry about, but it's in a fairly unexpected category. A few months ago, one of his Malakim came to him with, well, a personal problem. The Malakim had noticed a .0054% drop in efficiency after he began seeing romantically an Ofanite of War. Now, while the percentage drop had substantially affected neither the Malakim's job performance nor his commitment to fighting the War, it was a noticeable degradation in ability. However, the Servitor was having difficulties in determining whether the drop in effectiveness justified ending the relationship (he personally doubted it), without first trying to compensate. Morale is, after all, an important factor in efficiency, and at present, breaking things off would only cause a steeper drop. Thankfully, the Servitor was working for an entity much wiser and experienced than he, who could no doubt give some practical advice... When they give you the Archangel's halo, somehow they neglect to mention that you'll end up fielding baroque questions on a regular basis. This one caught Laurence flat-footed: his Servitor obviously didn't want to end his (perfectly honorable) relationship, but he also didn't want to lose any of his edge. The Archangel muttered some platitudes, the Malakim went away happy, and worked things out on his own (a slightly longer training period in the mornings cleared up the problem). Problem solved, except that Laurence wasn't too happy with his own role. Perfect Judge of Honor, an Archangel should be able to give well reasoned, pertinent advice when asked, not hem and haw and equivocate. Since then, Laurence has been trying to come up with anything else than the obvious answer. He's grilled (gently) every theologian he can get his hands on, attacked the problem from all ends, tried thinking outside the box, but he keeps coming back to an unmistakable answer. Some things simply can't be handled by book learning. If Laurence wants to be a source of answers, he's going to have to have the pertinent experience to justify it. Laurence... is going to have to Go Out On A Date. This should be fun to watch, really. Laurence has few vices, and vanity isn't one of them. He has no idea exactly what his terse announcement that he requires an escort to "a pleasant yet respectable social activity, with no threat of dishonor, followed by a refreshing and nourishing meal on the corporeal plane" is going to do to the Pax Dei. He's actually worried that no one will volunteer. The Bright Lilim alone… well, it won't be pretty (thankfully, there aren't that many of them). However, they'll have plenty of company as the hordes of female angels attempt to be the first one to volunteer. Nobody will be sure whether Laurence is going to ever choose to go out on a second date, so you snooze, you lose. There may even be genteel rioting. Heck, a few male angels might give it a stab; it's not like the Roman Catholic Church has ever banned homosexual behavior among angels, so whatever misguided theological positions wouldn't even apply here. And if you think Heaven's reaction is going to be interesting, wait until the news hits Hell. More than one Lilim will seriously toy with the idea of Redemption on this one. Servitors of Lust will just muse on the potential rewards of bagging the ultimate prize. Everybody else will just use the data to tweak some angelic noses. And, of course, you just know that Lilith and Andre will just happen to have reservations at the same restaurant as Laurence and his date... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:31:24 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:04 PM Subject: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" > Laurence... is going to have to Go Out On A Date. > This should be fun to watch, really. Laurence has few > vices, and vanity isn't one of them. He has no idea > exactly what his terse announcement that he requires > an escort to "a pleasant yet respectable social > activity, with no threat of dishonor, followed by a > refreshing and nourishing meal on the corporeal plane" > is going to do to the Pax Dei. He's actually worried > that no one will volunteer. The Bright Lilim alone... > well, it won't be pretty (thankfully, there aren't > that many of them). However, they'll have plenty of > company as the hordes of female angels attempt to be > the first one to volunteer. Nobody will be sure > whether Laurence is going to ever choose to go out on > a second date, so you snooze, you lose. There may > even be genteel rioting. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!! "This should be fun to watch, really. Laurence has few vices, and vanity isn't one of them." That is *so* stereotypically Laurence. Now, let's see if we can do Superior reactions... Michael -- "It's about *time* the boy actually started loosening up and living a little. But why the [bleep] did he have to issue an open invitation instead of just finding someone eligible and asking her alone? Doesn't he have any idea of the riots he's about to start? And I just *know* he's got absolutely no clue about what to do on a date... I'd better get over there and give him a few pointers." Novalis -- "Oh *dear*. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... I mean, I'm glad that he's finally decided to let his hair down and indulge himself in something fun for a change, but they're going to be pulling each other's hair and scratching each other's eyes out over places in line all the way from Gabriel's Volcano to Blandine's Tower! Couldn't he have been a little more *discreet*? And I just *know* he's never been on a real date before... I had better go over there and give him a little advice... "And *no*, you just get that thought out of your mind *right now*. He's a nice boy, true, but he's definitely far too young for me. Mrph! Some people..." David -- "Mrph. Useless frivolity. I thought he knew better." Janus -- "BWAHAHAHAAA! Oh man, this is gonna be *so* good! Hey, somebody grab me some popcorn and a camcorder! And scout out wherever the Bright Lilim are, that's gonna be the hot spot! And did you *SEE* the expression on David's face? BWAHAHAHAHAAAAA!" Dominic -- *groan* "My head hurts. I mean, he used to be so *reliable*. Now he's doing *what*? What's going to happen next? What's going to come of this? Doesn't anything EVER stay PREDICTABLE around here?!?" *groan* Blandine -- "Errr... Laurence is doing *what*? Oh, it's such a pity I'm busy that night... busy doing what? Errr... something. Yes, I definitely have something that needs taking care of that night. Whatever it is. *No*, I do *not* want a copy of the sign-up sheet. Honestly." *sigh* Zadkiel -- "Laurence is doing *what*? WHERE"S THE..." *ahem* "Errr, I mean... just out of curiosity, mind you... where's the sign-up sheet?" "Thank you. Errr... I have to go now, I hear someone calling me!" *runs out of the room at top speed* - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1907 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.