From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 6 04:22:13 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25197 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:22:11 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id EAA24538 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:20:59 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:20:59 -0600 Message-Id: <200011061020.EAA24538@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1908 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1908 In this digest: Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" IN> He's got a sign up sheet for WHAT!? Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 IN> Entry of the Lone-Wolf... IN> Jordi's thoughts... IN> A Trial for Michael Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 IN> Domestication in Heaven IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1907 IN> Hellrazing IN> Laurence dating. Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 IN> Animal Cruelty IN> Michael's Trials ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:55:52 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" >"This should be fun to watch, really. Laurence has few vices, and vanity >isn't one of them." > >That is *so* stereotypically Laurence. > >Now, let's see if we can do Superior reactions... To throw in some more: Yves: (weak smile) I'm sure it'll turn out alright, in the long run. Andrealphus: (licks lips) Someone get me a pen, NOW!! Kobal: (after the insane laughter dulls down to a mild chuckle and demented grin) Get Valefor to steal the list, that'll be a real hoot. Nybbas: Get it on film, it'll get better ratings than Something about Novalis. Valefor: On one hand stealing the list would be a challenge, and humorous. On the other hand a swarm of angry angels won't be. - -- Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus If you have time to kill, why not kill it at http://ucsub.Colorado.edu/~grothtp/In.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:20:26 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> He's got a sign up sheet for WHAT!? Hehhehe I love this. *leaves a sign up sheet conveinantly tapped on Blandine's bed, bathroom mirror, and on her hairbrush* There I'm sure she's simply working on resolving whatever is keeping her from sparing a projection for the evening. Hehehe I just *WISH* Saminga had decided to ask his gal out this night too. (Ummm hey Beleth, want to go out and kill people?) (No) (How about terrorize them, then kill them?) (hard bargain. okay) I can imagine laurence's own reaction to the various canidates on his sign up sheet..... "Oh my look at....oh dear......this is quite the pile....hmmmm well obviously they must view my position as Commander of the Host as it their duty to help me in this endeavor." Offers: Bright Lilim: Well I'm very glad they've decided to get involved in.....::Blush:: I see they've included a resume..... Gabrielle: I.....beg your pardon? Well I'm of c....really she signed up? A hot time.....wel....why do I suspect her defination is different than the Lilims....not that I'm complaining.... Athena: Exactly how did this get to Mount Olympus? Well yes I always admired the woman even during her defense against my perfect Lord Uriel....SHE'S A PAGAN GODDESS FOR GOD SAKE! Really? the Aegis? Blandine: She really hasn't offered yet? Ah well I see..hmm. Eli: I....he wants to take me to some hot spots to show me the town and dig up some chicks along the way huh? Song: Who exactly is Song? Also she insists it be Corporeal music halls...hmmm.... Jean: he heard it might improve efficency and wants to test it for himself and his organization...err...no thank you. Khalid: My dear brother has chosen four of his female angels to serve as my wives.....I see........send him a polite refusal at this point. Yves: He just wants to send me a congradulations....I *REALLY* want to know why, Kronos TOO? Guinevere: Thank you please inform the Lady Ethereal of Avalon I do not date married women. Zadikiel: Yes I admire her work quite a bit, quite sensible she is, pleasant to be around too...hmmm. Sif: How many of these things reached the Marches exactly? Yes I understand your recommendation Master Border Gaurd that the widow is quite lonely.... hehhehehee - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:30:31 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1905 At 5:45 PM -0800 11/5/00, James Walker wrote: > >don't all the animals go to jordi's region? i'd imagine wandering in and >>attempting to shear/milk any of the animals would be a quick way to get a >>Superior jumping on your head >Spot the city boy. Sheep need to be shorn, cows need to be milked; they've >been bred for it. Sure, on Earth. It's amazing what you don't need to do in Heaven. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:32:23 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" That is *so* stereotypically Laurence. Now, let's see if we can do Superior reactions...<<< This was hilarious Moe! I think I have some more reactions for you. - -------------------- Jean: "Love? What a muddy-minded abnormality. The human, or angelic, body produces certain chemicals and hormones that prompt physical responses designed to increase the chances of reproduction. Love is nothing more than a chemical imbalance produced by certain over-excited hormones. Love is used to describe this natural biological processes and does not objectively exist, especially since the one who embodied that particular delusion, Andrealphus, now serves in Hell. I am surprised that Laurence could be so irrational." Marc: "The betting on who will get the date alone is going to propel profits through the roof! I've got all my people on it!" Jordi: "So Laurence seeks to mate? The Malakite might have some instincts in him after all." Yves: "Laurence moves towards his Destiny. That is all I can say." Christopher: "Awww! First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes Laurence with a baby carriage! I can hardly wait to see the child they produce! All children are special treasures, but I bet Laurence's child will really be special." ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:23:16 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 >At 2:41 AM -0800 11/4/00, Bevan Thomas wrote: >>Also, they are not under Jordi's control. So he would probably be a little >>resentful of them. Oh yes, and humans spend a lot of unnecessary damage >>overall, which makes Jordi dislike them on principle. > >And the whalers are not killing for the purposes Jordi champions. >They do not kill out of hunger, the need to eat now... they killed to >burn their oil, use their bones, render their meat. They kill for >convenience, or kill for fun. They do not kill out of the dance of >predator and prey, but out of... Economics. >- -- >Eric Alfred Burns - So Jordi is either a control freak or hates forward planning? Let's run through those arguments. Not under his control: not now, no - but we were before he made the 'wipe-out' decision. (By the way, humanity was nearly wiped out about at one point; the population was reduced to less than a thousand people. Jordi's work? 'Twould be a nice twist that he just started the wipe out and was stopped violently by Michael) Unnecessary damage - So do lots of other animals. Sorry, this 'kill only what you need' idea is human. One of the reasons that OZ is going downhill is that both foxes and pigs have acquired a taste for delicacies, and will restrict themselves to eating the tastiest bits of the animals they kill. killing out of hunger - I'd say that killing out of hunger is the problem! We're very Haagentian. the need to eat now - so he hates squirrels? Many species store for the future, it's a good survival strategy. Also, most species hunt food to bring back to their young etc. Seen through the lens of the Word of Animals this is precisely what the whalers where doing. killed to burn oil, use their bones, render their meat - again stuff that other animals will do. Predators will bring back bones for their cubs to teeth on; why would Jordi object? The animal died for food; if the carcass is also used for other purposes, so what? killed for convenience - again, so do other animals. A rival in the animals turf? A beastie that smells 'wrong'? A wandering target? All get killed. Economics. - also known as Specialisation. Are ants wrong to kill another insect and bring it back for other ants to use? If not why are humans? I can answer that, and why Jordi hates Marc & Jean, but for very different reasons to the ones given. When creatures evolve co-operative behaviours, those behaviours tend to be very stable and unchanging; if they do change, eg one species is becoming extinct, then there is a change over period in which creatures from the other species can attempt to find a new survival strategy. Not so if you're dealing with humans. Horses were the primary means of transport; the invention of the combustion engine has swept them away. Where are the hunting falcons of the Middle Ages? Again, domesticated animals depend on human interest to survive; if Gluttony becomes Jaded with beef, watch as the beef cattle become fertilizer and are replaced by a different edible animal. (Yes, Jordi could hate Haagenti for STOPPING eating!) Even within human society this is a problem; people who have completed apprenticeships or degrees find their qualifications worthless because the needs of the market have changed while they were studying. 'Survival of the Fittest' is a clique`d way to look at Jordi's Word but it will do for here - because how is he supposed to react when the fittest CAN'T survive? Imagine a Jordi who sees the [elemental] world as incredibly harsh, and interprets his Word as teaching his Animals to work together to survive. He promotes pack tactics, territories, dens, child-rearing...and then humans turn up disrupting all of these things. Ouch. Or, a fun way to interpret Jordi that I've been tempted to use in-game - he knows when a species has fulfilled their animal potential. He then wipes them out. Humans fulfilled their animal potential so Jordi tried to wipe humanity out and was stopped by Michael. Jordi thinks of humanity the way a visitor to Jurassic Park would of thought of Dinosaurs. Of course, if Jordi was right to want to wipe out humanity, why did Michael stop him? because Yves told him to? Would explain why Michael can't stand Yves anymore. And Jordi must have been right at some level, or he wouldn't have wanted to do so. Maybe humanity had fulfilled its' animal potential but not it's mental potential? people's thoughts ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:26:28 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 >And finally, I think the reason Humans are so utterly important to the War >is because we choose whether we will create the evidence that will prove >Lucifer right, or the evidence that will prove him wrong. And that's a more >important role than blowing up demonic Hearts. A very interesting argument; however the reason Moe's tactic is so scary is that Lucifer's basic lie is that Celestials are better than humans. If the Host can't defeat Hell, but damned humans can...well... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:29:42 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Entry of the Lone-Wolf... Nice thought, having Uriel return...(of course, Angels of Purity should know whether Uriel is still around - do his Rites still work?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:32:55 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Jordi's thoughts... > Of course, there's all they whales they fatally >injured but failed to catch, which amounts to a huge waste, and which >would probably piss Jordi off... Hmm, again that does happen among animals; some beasties fight off the animal that kills them. And no they're not wasted - scavengers get them. So he still shouldn't mind. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:08:56 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> A Trial for Michael Laurence finally spoke - 'You won't believe this one'. "Who?" 'Christopher'. " About time" Laurence looked at Michael in amazement, so Michael explained: " Childhood is about learning, and facing me is the best way to learn about combat. Naturally he would accept the challenge." 'Well, I guess that explains the nature of the challenge' "What terms?" 'Any place, weapons, assistants or equipment that you think are appropriate, and...' "Given he's had the intelligence to get me to train him, I'd better make an effort to teach him well. I'll face him in the boxing ring in the Training Grounds." 'Yes, he's already there, but..' "Let's join him" Michael vanished. After fuming for an instant, Laurence followed. *************** Michael felt good. Training the Host was one of his more pleasant tasks. "Ready to begin, Christopher?" 'NO, he is not and YOU are not' snapped Laurence. 'You WILL let me finish. The terms are any place, weapons, assistants or equipment you think are appropriate. If defeated Christopher offers to grant his Luck Attunement to up to fifty of your Servitors, on the priviso that they have previously defended a child from Hell. The winner is the first of you to learn something about combat from your opponent.' Michael was dumbfounded. Learn about combat from Christopher? And then he understood, and smiled, having already won. "Christopher, please explain why." `I thought originally to challenge you so that I could learn from you. But then I thought of all the demons who have fallen under your axe. Yes, they lost a vessel; so what? Each learned from facing you, each became a more skilled warrior, a deadlier enemy to Heaven. So I am here to defeat you, to punish you for endangering us all by making Hell stronger.` Michael felt the Truth of Christopher's words, as he knew he would. "I accept your terms - and claim victory." Laurence broke in: 'Explain'. "I am a better warrior now. Christopher is right - in the past demons have been able to learn from fighting me. Thanks to Christopher, I know better. In future, I will chose styles and techniques that are highly inappropriate to the demons I fight, so that when they copy them, they will become worse fighters, not better ones. Hell's warriors will waste their time trying to master advanced techniques when they should be mastering the basics, or abandon the attempt to learn from their enemies, so that they do not learn from our other warriors. I have learned that this is necessary - thanks to Christopher." And Michael raised his hand in salute to his challenger. "Well Done." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:17:31 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 At 5:23 PM -0800 11/6/00, James Walker wrote: >So Jordi is either a control freak or hates forward planning? Let's run >through those arguments. No, Jordi hates *artifice.* Artificial concepts. Uninstinctual non-survival uses, where the irrelevancies and vagarancies of human concern come before the natural predator/prety relationship. >Not under his control: not now, no - but we were before he made the >'wipe-out' decision. What makes you think that? Humanity was set aside from the beginning. Jordi just didn't much mind until he decided they were overbalancing. >Unnecessary damage - So do lots of other animals. Sorry, this 'kill only >what you need' idea is human. One of the reasons that OZ is going downhill >is that both foxes and pigs have acquired a taste for delicacies, and will >restrict themselves to eating the tastiest bits of the animals they kill. How do you think foxes and pigs got there? Humanity, transporting them for economic needs (foxes because they wanted to hunt them for fur, pigs for farming). Having been transplanted out of their native binomes into one not adapted to them, they have cycled out of control. The same with rabbits. Humanity and their irrational, unnatural practices screwing with the order again. >killing out of hunger - I'd say that killing out of hunger is the problem! >We're very Haagentian. Eh? This makes no sense. We don't hunt whales for food, primarily. Not these days, at least. Perfume, yes. Food, no. >the need to eat now - so he hates squirrels? Many species store for the >future, it's a good survival strategy. I wasn't aware we considered nut gathering a predator/prey relationship. And Jordi would have no problem with a human being going out and shooting a deer, dressing said deer and storing the meat for the winter. But shooting a perfectly good deer to mount its head on your wall, sell the skin for leather and abandon the meat in the woods (which happens all the time) gets in his craw. > Also, most species hunt food to >bring back to their young etc. Seen through the lens of the Word of Animals >this is precisely what the whalers where doing. Whaling hasn't really been about food for centuries. When it was at its height, it was about oil. About the need to light the night. An unnatural lighting of the night, no less, allowing economic work to continue late into the evening. That was the driving need to hunt whales toward extinction. Once we had low cost alternatives, modern whaling was driven by inertia, largely. >killed to burn oil, use their bones, render their meat - again stuff that >other animals will do. Predators will bring back bones for their cubs to >teeth on; Well, no. They bring back bones for their cubs to eat -- sucking marrow from them. Teething became an instinctive reaction to a situation already in use, and animals evolved in that direction. If you don't see the difference between that and carving whalebones into supports for bras, and how Jordi might see one as natural and the other as a horrific waste, there's little I can say that will change your mind. > >killed for convenience - again, so do other animals. A rival in the animals >turf? A beastie that smells 'wrong'? A wandering target? All get killed. None of those are convenient. Turf battles are part of the natural hunting patterns and mating patterns of predators. Beasties that smell wrong could be a danger to home and young. A wandering target isn't likely to get killed save for food. Even animals who play with their food won't actually kill them until they've got a reason to -- it's why cats are so cruel to mice. They won't kill until they're ready to eat or provide food to their family (including their owners, sometimes, when they think said owners can't hunt to save their lives). Otherwise, they're driven to keep their skills sharp, but tend not to strike the killing stroke. > Economics. - also known as Specialisation. Huh? Let me rephrase. *What?* No, Economics isn't specialization. In its Heavenly form, it's a function of Trade, where goods and services are bartered to the benefit of all. In its Hellish form, it's a means of hoarding resources out of Greed, to the benefit of none. But Economics transcends survival and enters the realm of the conceptual, and that makes it unnatural. An ant colony has many functioning, specialized pieces to survive overall. Humanity, on the other hand, has Karaoke Bars. The survival function gets blunted, somewhat. >Are ants wrong to kill another insect and bring it back for other >ants to use? If not why are humans? From Jordi's point of view, because they're moving beyond the Survival need and into selfish, irrational, unnatural wants and desires. The ants don't take anything they won't use to keep the colony healthy. Humans shoot animals for *sport,* or to fill the driving hunger to put coats on the backs of rich women who don't need to keep warm, rugs on the floors or rich men, or 'real genuine ivory keys' on humanity's pianos. And that is just plain wrong. From his point of view. Myself? I'm a Heinlein freak, and I agree with him. A person who loves a Beaver dam built for Beaver purposes but hates a human dam built for human purposes has some self-hatred to work through. But this isn't about me, it's about Jordi. Orrrrr... so it seems to me. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:18:40 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 >I won't even begin to touch on the insanity of trying >to jump someone on her own turf (Blandine) Yep. After all, if Moe cannot think of a winning strategy, clearly there isn't one. However: I realised that I was wrong about how Blandine would defend herself. After all, she must Dream of being able to thwack Lucifer. She does so like this: The entire Tower is a single trap. Her Bounded in a Nutshell attunement prevents movement into/out of the Ethereal realm, and so can catch anyone in the Tower (as you have to leave either the Marches or Heaven to leave the Tower). The Tower then shrinks forcing her victim into the Locus of the most powerful Tether she has - possibly the 2nd most powerful in existence. The victim is stuck there until they're destroyed. Although designed to catch Lucifer, I'm guessing it'll catch Baal when he invades. Or possibly he's worked out the secret (after all, he does say that he won't take on Blandine on her own turf) and plans to send an expendable DP in first. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:39:48 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Domestication in Heaven >wild sheep and cattle don't need to be shorn/milked. i doubt that jordi >would set up farms in his region of heaven just to keep agriculture going. Wild sheep? Pardon? However you are correct that wild cattle do not need to be milked - and wouldn't be. However domesticated animals are far more common. >i always assumed that once you're dead and in heaven your physical functions >are irrelevant. after all, you're no longer corporeal. souls don't have to >eat, or sleep, or take a dump. a heaven where people have to get their hair >cut sounds sort of freaky to me. I know a number of women who would assume that they were in Hell if they didn't need a hair salon. Also, there is a coffee shop in Heaven, described in YAH. And you'll want restuarants, if only to stop Christians complaining "But the Bible says 'you'll sup with me in Paradise' - am I in Hell or something?" ditto Muslims, though as they also expect Houris things could get interesting. Heaven without food - wash your mouth out. Okay, so you don't NEED food, but so what. [shudder]. And yes, there would be toilets, in the Halls of Creation if nowhere else. Most new ideas strike while on the bog, so Eli's throne room would be truly impressive. > so i would have thought sheep wouldn't >*need* to be shorn. maybe they *could* be, The question is, do they want to be? And often yes. I imagine that (given that self-image determines how you look, I believe - must check H&H) sheep grow wool so that they can explore the cooler regions of the Savannah, and then when they want to explore a warmer region go and get shorn and then wander off. Of course, Marc may have struck a deal and the wool is Traded for something else; a Pet Masseur could make a fortune. > but like i said, i don't think >jordi would be up for "exploiting the souls of deomesticated animals" as you >put it >liam Agreed - that line was me being silly. it would be would with animals consent only. On Silly, a truly bizarre thought struck me. A grain of wheat burns itself out and dies to produce the next harvest. For it, just soaking up the rich soil of Heaven and growing a stalk of wheat would be comparable to parents who (having worked themselves to death bringing up their children) on arriving in Heaven get given a selection of lingerie and reminded that they don't need contraceptives up here... But then I'm just weird. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:50:45 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1907 >>Still, it's one way to stop people eating live food. >>Possess an oyster; after being swallowed invoke NC: >>Spines & NC: Plates. >>--Season to taste? >>James. > >God, that's twisted*. >*I mean that as a compliment, of course. :) Of course! Thank You. > You'll need a Song that could >neutralize stomach acid, of course: That's why I thought of NC:Plates, to stop the damage. In the long term, NC:stomach would be ideal. Various critters can extend their stomach outside their bodies, and ther stomach has various defenses (which I should remember-sigh) to prevent it digesting itself. > Celestial Song of >Motion might not be a bad call, either**. >**Or even Corporeal Song of Shields and Corporeal Song >of Motion. "GAAANNNGGGGWAYYYY!" (Cue *Alien* stock >footage here) >:) It's just as well we don't have access to these abilities real world(TM) isn't it? [though] oh well, now we know how Nybbas got the special effects for Aliens. presumerably the 'stuntmen' were Shedim with Celestial Form who abandon their hosts at the last minute..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:53:53 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Hellrazing >Moe > > >*Besides, think about the rush as you go down. You >might actually even experience a Doppler shift. > > >"GGGGEERRRRRAAANNNNIMMMMMOOOOO!!!!....." Moe, I have definite feelings about you being on the other side of the world. I'm not sure whether it's regret or relief, but either way, you're evil. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. James - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:56:44 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Laurence dating. >it's not like the Roman Catholic >Church has ever banned homosexual behavior among >angels, so whatever misguided theological positions >wouldn't even apply here. Including Missionary? Yes, I know it was coarse. I'm almost sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:07:31 -0600 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" To: Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 1:17 AM Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 > None of those are convenient. Turf battles are part of the natural > hunting patterns and mating patterns of predators. Beasties that > smell wrong could be a danger to home and young. A wandering target > isn't likely to get killed save for food. Even animals who play with > their food won't actually kill them until they've got a reason to -- > it's why cats are so cruel to mice. They won't kill until they're > ready to eat or provide food to their family (including their owners, > sometimes, when they think said owners can't hunt to save their > lives). Otherwise, they're driven to keep their skills sharp, but > tend not to strike the killing stroke Eric, I agree with almost everything you've said, but this is not why cats are often found playing with their food. The main reason is that the method of killing a mouse (or anything else) is not instinctual behavior for a cat; they have to be taught how to deliver the killing blow, usually by their mother. Cats raised in human society often never receive this training (food tending to come from a bowl), so they don't know how to do it. When they corner a mouse, they keep batting it around until it finally dies because they don't know what else to do. So, cats being cruel to their prey is justone more thing that Jordi will blame on the corrupting influence of humansociety. This is not to say that cats won't kill just for fun; they will, as one of the local cats will be happy to demonstrate anytime a bird is stupid enough to perch on the low fence to our yard. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 03:19:36 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1906 At 2:07 AM -0600 11/6/00, Michael Neal wrote: > > > lives). Otherwise, they're driven to keep their skills sharp, but >> tend not to strike the killing stroke > >Eric, I agree with almost everything you've said, but this is not why cats >are often found playing with their food. The main reason is that the method >of killing a mouse (or anything else) is not instinctual behavior for a cat; >they have to be taught how to deliver the killing blow, usually by their >mother. Cats raised in human society often never receive this training >(food tending to come from a bowl), so they don't know how to do it. When >they corner a mouse, they keep batting it around until it finally dies >because they don't know what else to do. So, cats being cruel to their prey >is justone more thing that Jordi will blame on the corrupting influence of >humansociety. My source was "Cats for Dummies," so I have no doubt that you're right and I'm wrong, save that it seems more likely that domestication has blunted instinctual killing instincts in cats, but not instinctual hunting instincts. True feral cats who are descendents of true feral cats I imagine have the killing instinct even if they must be taught the skill. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 02:50:32 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Animal Cruelty Michael Neal wrote: > Eric, I agree with almost everything you've said, but this is not why cats> are often found playing with their food. The main reason is that the method> of killing a mouse (or anything else) is not instinctual behavior for a cat;> they have to be taught how to deliver the killing blow, usually by their> mother. Cats raised in human society often never receive this training> (food tending to come from a bowl), so they don't know how to do it. When> they corner a mouse, they keep batting it around until it finally dies> because they don't know what else to do. So, cats being cruel to their prey> is justone more thing that Jordi will blame on the corrupting influence of> humansociety. Really? The explanation I learned was that many predators "play" with their prey before delivering the killing blow because they need to wear it down and disable it with minimal risk to themselves. A still-kicking, thrashing, and fighting prey can easily deliver nasty injuries to its killer, and hunting animals can't afford to lose an eye, get a broken leg, or take a gouge across the snout (thus disabling their hunting equipment). Similarly, this is why so many people attacked by sharks are able to escape (minus a limb); sharks usually take a bite out of you and then swim around waiting for you to bleed to death. Slightly off-topic, but I'm not sure that "cat cruelty" can really be blamed on humans. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:18:33 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Michael's Trials The young Malakite entered Laurence's office, and saluted. "Sir, I was - asked - to deliver a challenge to Michael." 'Very good, Melatriel. From who?' "Haagenti, sir." 'I see. While he was eating your vessel?' "Yes sir." 'There is no shame, Meletriel. The time he spent eating your vessel, he could not spend eating humans. In time, he will be punished for his crimes. What is the nature of this challenge?' "Thank you sir. He asked that Michael join him at Blood River, preferably before his food runs out. He will explain the challenge there." 'Very good.' Laurence rose, and with a thought, bestowed a new vessel on the young Virtue. 'There is a small tether in Addis Adaba which was held jointly by Gluttony & Dark Humor. You will join Kobal there and help him rededicate it to Laughter'. "Yes sir. Thank You sir." Laurence knew Blood River; Yves had named it before Laurence had been created. It was continually renamed - and fought over - by humans. It was also the only water supply for the surrounding region. Why there? He was tempted to wait before delivering the challenge to Michael - while Haagenti was waiting he was not causing havok elsewhere. And then he thought of what Haagenti might be eating, and swiftly left. ***************************************** A flash flood had swept down Blood River carrying all before it. 'All' included several herds of wild animals, at least one town and a cemetry. Haagenti was working his way through the carnage, as happy to slurp down the mud as he was to eat everything else. Once he saw the two Archangels, be ate his way towards the river bank. Although disgusted, Laurence realised that he was seeing Haagenti at his best. If Haagenti had not come, the rotting carrion would have sent diseases sweeping through the war torn region. "You have a Challenge?" Laurence asked. Haagenti belched a `Yes'. `You hear that fight about five miles away? They're sweeping all over the place. And dying like flies. And leaving booty all over the place. The Challenge is simple: whoever loots the most from the battlefield tonight wins. No attacking anyone except to get a piece of loot that you've got your eye on.'. "No honourable warrior would consider such a thing!" protested Laurence. `So what? I'm challenging Michael, not you.' Michael chuckled. Although technically he had been insulted, he knew that Haagenti had meant that as a compliment. And Michael had learnt some interesting Truths about Haagenti. 'I am offering a boon if you can defeat me. What do you offer in return?' `To trash any one tether of Belial's of your choice.' 'Which is what you'd want to do anyway.' `Yeah, but the boon I want is for YOU to trash a tether of Belial's as well, so it's even!' 'True, very True. So why don't we agree that we both trash a tether each, whatever the outcome?' `Great! I like dealing with you.' Again Michael saw the peace which Haagenti desired. 'It's been a while hasn't it, since we fought Legion.' `Yeah, he was delicious. Scrumptious....and you fought well, too.' 'Thanks. I was wondering if you'd forgotten..' `That I'd have died if you hadn't stepped in? No way. Thanks. Arr well, maybe we'll get a chance to do it again sometime.' 'I'd like that.' `Belial maybe?' 'Almost certainly. And there's something else you want to say?' `Ahh....maybe later. Let's loot that battlefield, yeah?' Michael smiled. Looting a battlefield was not what he had had in mind when he originally made the challenge, but keeping weapons out of enemy hands was an important part of War, so he had no objections. And without Kobal, Haagenti was feeling lonely. THAT had possibilities. 'Let's.' Night was falling as they arrived. Laurence strode to the top of a hilltop from which to watch the contest. Haagenti waddled towards the nearest pile of the dead, and set to work with gusto. Michael however headed to a bogged tank. With a massive heave he pushed it out of the mud, and in a few minutes had it operational again. Turning back to Haagenti, Laurence saw that he had eaten another pile of dead. And then it clicked. Michael couldn't win. For Michael the only loot available was the weapons and equipment of slain. For Haagenti the bodies were also loot. All he had to do was keep eating all night, and in the morning nothing would remain. Laurence would have to declare Haagenti the winner. If he did that he would diminish the honor of Heaven - if he didn't he would break his word - why hadn't Michael thought of this! Perhaps he planned to bury the bodies, and force Haagenti to attack him? No, if he was burying bodies, he couldn't loot the battlefield - - Haagenti would still win. In the distance the gun on Michael's tank fired scattering a group of mechanics away from some vehicles they were trying to repair. Laurence was impressed. Handling a tank singlehanded was a big job, even for someone as experienced as Michael. He let his hopes rise as Michael roped a line of trucks behind his tank and then drove on. But his hopes sank again as he turned back to see Haagenti devour an artillery redoubt. And a bogged jeep. And some more bodies. And a second helping of jeeps. Second Helping? He was slipping into Haagenti's worldview - NOT something he was prepared to do again. He would resist that. But he couldn't help wondering whether Haagenti could fire that artillery piece without regurgitating it. Enough of his Servitors had attempted strange tricks with his Scabbard attunement to make him unwilling to dimiss the thought as impossible. In the distance, Michael drove into the nearest armed camp. A brave guard jumped onto the tank, pulled the pin from a grenade - and was grabbed by Michael. Leaping out of the tank, Michael had grabbed the hand which held the grenade, and used an interesting handlock to force the guard onto Micheal's lap. And Michael started to spank him! Laurence was less surprised than another Superior would have been. As an Archangel, Michael could use the Malakite resonance (though not as well as his own), and had probably detected a dishonorable action which needed punishing. If the action had been caused by Pride, then a humiliating punishment was appropriate. Of course, given Michael's pragmatism, why he was doing that when he had a competition to win was beyond Laurence. And he was losing. Haagenti had clearly mapped out the battlefield beforehand, and was moving from target to target with surprising efficiency. Bodies, weapons, gear, even the occasional house ended up in Haagenti's maw. While Michael left the camp and crossed the battlefield Laurence was left alone on his hill with his thoughts. The smell of the grass was sweet - was this how Jesus had felt in the Garden of Gethsemane? Laurence could have faced death, but the thought of admitting defeat to a Demon was far worse. But he remained strong. Tomorrow morning Heaven's honor would be dragged through the mud, but he would rebuild it. Just as His Lord had risen from the dead, so would Laurence's honor. With that thought he maintained his sad, cold vigil. Michael drove into the other human camp. Again guards tried to kill him - this time he picked one up and used him as a club to beat the others to the ground. Grabbing their commander he gestured to the truck; around him men ran off on the errands he assigned them. Laurence's hopes raised a little. Did Michael hope to set the soldiers to looting the battlefield? That would help, might be enough...but no. Haagenti had already eaten too much, over half of the battlefield had been picked clean. Haagenti's pattern was now clear, and Laurence could see where Haagenti would finish clearing the battlefield. Sighing, Laurence left his hill and started walking to that point. He would have rather walked to his execution. ******************************************************** It was getting lighter as he arrived. There was no birdsong; all the birds had fled the battlefield long ago. But there was the rumble of tanks and of trucks as the two sides prepared for another day of battle. To Laurence's left Haagenti jumped forward and began gobbling down the last item on the battlefield - an old WWII mortar. To his right Michael strode forward, escorted by two senior army officers. Haagenti slurped down the mortar before claiming "Victory!" Michael spoke: 'Yes, but mine, not yours, Haagenti'. Allow me to introduce you to President Alid Treswar and Vice-President Meni Peldri. They have agreed...' As the light grew Laurence noted the bruises and cauliflower ears the two men now sported '..to end this war and rebuild their beloved homeland. Being good, devout men..' Michael grinned '...they hope that this will be pleasing to God and Heaven and have sworn to defend the new peace with their lives.' Around them the two armies assembled, here to witness the new peace, and start rebuilding their lives. Michael turned to Laurence. 'My booty from this battlefield amounts to two armies and one nation.' Michael turned back to Haagenti. 'Do you concede?' And Haagenti laughed. And laughed. And laughed. Tears streamed from his eyes , as he clapped his paws together. "Michael, that's funny enough to be something Kobal would of done. I concede. But it was fun, and we should do this again sometime. After we trash Belial's tethers. Err, I was thinking..' 'Yes?' "It'd probably be better if we both attacked the both tethers, one after another, more efficient and all that." 'True. As I one won the challenge, I will choose which tether we attack first. Belsen.' "Fine - though I've no idea how we can destroy that one." 'I have considered it, and will explain later. Until then...' "See Ya soon!" and Haagenti vanished. ******************************************************* Michael and Laurence decided to witness the peace signing. Although only the President and Vice-President knew that Archangels were in attendence, everyone else picked up on their mood, so all went without a hitch. Finally Laurence gave in and asked: "I've never known you to end a war when the outcome was still in doubt. And how did you decide which one was to be President?" Michael shrugged. 'I told the pair of them that they were to resolve their differences with a boxing match, which I judged. As I had told them that I would break their necks if they refused or cheated, they agreed." Laurence smiled "Haagenti was acting strangely - is his redemption possible, do you think?" 'Yes, but not yet. He wants it both ways, quite natural given his Word. He'll have to choose in his own time....I wonder what my next challenge will be?" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1908 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.