From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 9 01:27:44 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13382 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 01:27:43 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id BAA01646 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 01:27:15 -0600 Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 01:27:15 -0600 Message-Id: <200011090727.BAA01646@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1914 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1914 In this digest: Re:IN> I'm bored... Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" Re:IN> I'm bored... Re:IN> I'm bored... Re: IN> Heretic Re: IN> Heretic Re: IN> Heretic Re: IN> I want to apologise for my "About Politics in IN" post... IN> New Heretics.... Re: IN> Celestial political parties Re: IN> I'm bored... IN> A Contender for Sloth IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> I'm bored... IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1913 >Subject: IN> Balakite Thought Re: IN> New Heretics.... Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re:IN> I'm bored... Re: IN> Michael's Trials - Freedom (Part 1) Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Re:IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:05:36 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re:IN> I'm bored... Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:07:53 -0800From: "Kish" Subject: Re: Re:IN> I'm bored... From: Charles Glasgow <> >Yeah, I'd be more interested in seeing the other side >(that is, how would you Redeem Beleth, and what would >her writeup look like?),myself.- -- Huh? Beleth didn't actually _Fall_: she's just been the victim of the longest Bals... ...oh, that's right, I never actually wrote that one out, did I? The Courtly Love netbook crashed and burned before I could block it out. Never mind... ;) Moe PS: The Uriel one sounds good, but I've got different plans for him. _Evil_ plans. :) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:35:39 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:41:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "He's got a Sign-Up sheet for WHAT!" >And then he realizes that he's in _Moe's_ universe. >"You know, things would settle down a lot if it >weren't for that human... There's got to be >something... just ...to do to him." HEY! Nikki and I get along just fine... possibly because I'm not pointing a finger and screaming, "SECRET BALSERAPH! SECRET BALSERAPH!" at her all the time, unlike _some_ other people around here... ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:15:41 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re:IN> I'm bored... Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:13:59 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Re:IN> I'm bored... At 12:07 PM -0800 11/8/00, Kish wrote: >>Yeah, I'd be more interested in seeing the other >>side (that is, how would you Redeem Beleth, and what >>would her writeup look like?), myself. >I'd do her in subdued tones, accented with throw >pillows and perhaps track-lighting for an off-light->source effect. Also, you really need cool rather than >warm -- a leather couch only works in a muted grey >for this... no beiges. >- -- Eric Alfred Burns - > >Habbalite of Belaboring the Point Oddly enough, there's a Truth in there that I can use. Thanks.* ;) Moe *Either I'm just too strange for words, or Eric knows me well enough by now to figure out which subtext to use to get my attention. You make the call... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:49:21 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re:IN> I'm bored... Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:05:23 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: Re:IN> I'm bored... - - ----- Original Message -----From: "-=|horsefly|=-" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 1:57 AM Subject: Re:IN> I'm bored... > On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:23:55 -0800 (PST) Maurice Lane wrote: >>>...which means it's time for a new Heretic. That's >>>always good for a couple of days of frenzied >>>activity. > >[snip] you want a challenge, Moe? Redeem Kronos! > >or let BlandineFall...! >Well, Moe can make Heretics even where Heretics have >been made before if he wants, but Blandine's already >fallen once... http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/1999/11/1-1395.txt >- ---------Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:56:52 PST >From: "Jo Hart" >Subject: IN> Look upon me, ye mighty, and DESPAIR >Blandine, Demon Princess of Despair- ---------- - _Da*n_. No way I'm gonna even TRY to top that. Belated congrats of excellent work, Ms. Hart. I must have just missed that one. They had a lot of ads back then, huh? :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Heretic Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:40:31 -0800From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Heretic Bevan Thomas wrote:> >>Does anyone know when all of the Heretic >>submissions were? I just got on the list and I'd be >>curious to read them. >Eh. I don't believe they've been collected together. >There're a bunch on the INC, of course, Moe has done >a bunch, and there are associated others scattered >about (certainly it would be worth your time to browse >through the archives ^_^). Most of us who have web pages have done at least one, at one time or another. I'd recommend David E.'s Gabriel and Laurence, Eric Burn's Belial and Jordi, and, of course, Redneck Gaijin's Dark Victory stuff in the INC (that last one was what really caused the short circuit in my head that makes me think it's neat to take guys like Haagenti and Saminga and turn them into Archangels). And Ryan's right: the archives have some very interesting stuff in them that you can't find anywhere else.* :) Moe *Personally, I think that more people should have webpages. I think you _all_ should have web pages, and fill them and fill them with things. I mean, _I_ have a web page, and I don't even know HTML (the site** I use apparently works on the assumption that you either know how to do the stuff directly, or else you've got the web design skills of a corpse. Since I'm firmly in the latter level of skill, this is a great help to me)... **Free. 20MB capacity. No popups. Seeing as I don't use graphics, this is an obscenely good deal for me. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:44:00 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Heretic Yeah, I guessed that. I meant does anyone know *when* they were. I don't want to hunt through all the archives to find them, but if I was given the dates they were written, I could find them. I would like to go through the whole archive, but it's near the end of term, and I've got big essays due in all my classes, and I really don't have the time. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Elias To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:40 AM Subject: Re: IN> Heretic > > Eh. I don't believe they've been collected together. There're a bunch on > the INC, of course, Moe has done a bunch, and there are associated > others scattered about (certainly it would be worth your time to browse > through the archives ^_^). > > Cheers, > Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:48:01 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Heretic I've read the entries on Belial and Jordi, and scanned through Dark Victory (tres cool, a pity no more IN netbooks come out). What's the link to the fallen Gabriel and Laurence? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Maurice Lane To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:01 PM Subject: Re: IN> Heretic > > > Most of us who have web pages have done at least one, > at one time or another. I'd recommend David E.'s > Gabriel and Laurence, Eric Burn's Belial and Jordi, > and, of course, Redneck Gaijin's Dark Victory stuff in > the INC (that last one was what really caused the > short circuit in my head that makes me think it's neat > to take guys like Haagenti and Saminga and turn them > into Archangels). > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 04:59:34 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> I want to apologise for my "About Politics in IN" post... >I tried to keep my associations rational, like Laurence being >pro-republican >(strong moral values, promotion of a strong defensive military) and Novalis >being pro-Democratic (Belief that criminals can be redeemed, Environmental >awareness). If I offended anyone, could you tell me what, exactly, you >found was wrong or inappropriate? Dunno, sounds about right to me. Laurence is a strong supporter of Christianity, as is Dominic, and the two are known to be allied/associated IIRC. And, Novalis, I imagine, would also support Christianity, but more on the /Love/ aspect of it, rather than the "I Know You Were Raped But Your Right For Control Over Your Own Body Is Outweighed By The Right of the Baby to Have A Shot at Life; It's In God's Hands Now" philosophy. (Which, iirc, reflects V.P. candidate Dick Chaney's beliefs.) I can totally see that in Laurence and Dominic. I can also see Novalis making a strong case for the option of adoption over abortion, and I can see Yves just smiling in the background, knowing that the soul of the unborn child will just be recycled back through the Symphony to find another body. And since the above is all *my* opinion, and I don't claim represent those of anyone else than myself - bleh! - -Perry, Kriotate of FLowers serving Creation (KFC) perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold Which reminds me. Now that I've got 10+ forces, I've been meaning to learn a Song of Fruitition, possess two people, make love to myself, and have a kid! Whoo-hoo!! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:11:11 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> New Heretics.... >[snip] you want a challenge, Moe? Redeem Kronos! If Kronos' Fate is to fail to corrupt the world, then seeking redemption would be one way of acheiving it... A simpler, sadder option is a demon of Fate who knows that he's Fated to be destroyed attempting redemption...(But what would his Destiny be?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 05:13:10 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial political parties >As a matter of fact, the early drafts of IN, which I glimpsed on >the SJGames web pages, included things like political parties, >at least in Heaven. They were called "Houses" and were named >after the four cardinal virtues -- the Houses of Fortitude, >Wisdom, Justice, and Temperance. I don't know if there were >parties in Hell. Movement from one House to another was an >important political event in Heaven. Most likely a carryover from the French game, which had four councels: Offensive Councel (34 votes): Ange, Dominique, Joseph, Laurent, Walther Defensive Counsel (17 votes): Christophe, Guy, Jean-Luc Information Counsel (36 votes): Blandine, Didier, Francis, Marc, Emmanuel, Yves Outlier Counsel (9 votes): Janus, Jean Daniel, Michel, Novalis, Jordi, et Alain no longer reside in Heaven and therefore no longer participate in counsels and no longer have an powe over Heaven's counsel decisions. >In present IN, I see some informal "parties." The War Party >and the Peace Party in both Heaven and Hell have been mentioned >on the list. Certainly. >In Hell, there's a Destruction faction opposed to a Corruption >faction. Belial, Saminga, Baal, Vapula, and Kronos aren't all >chummy with each other, but they'd all like to tear down the world, >I think. Kobal and Haagenti might be in their camp, too, the >Destruction party. These are similar to the War party, but >I don't know that they're identical. Same difference to me. >Nybbas, Andrealphus, Beleth, and Mammon all want humanity for >one reason or another and probably wouldn't be content with >nothing but damned souls. I don't know about Lilith, Valefor, >and Malphus; they might be in the same camp. I'd certainly allot them there. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:49:29 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> I'm bored... What the heck: anybody need a specific one done? I don't feel like making Mikey a Jumper; other than that, I'm open to suggestions. It'll keep me from getting mentally flabby.* :) <<< Maybe you could do a Heretic Kobal or even better, a Heretic Asmodeus. :) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:24:57 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: IN> A Contender for Sloth While I was trying to put off doing my Psychology paper, I came up with this contender for the ancient Word of Sloth. What do you all think? Thanks to Moe, Alex Liddell, and EDG for the knowledge of how to write up a proper IN character, even if I am only guessing some things like the Songs (borrowed mostly from the write-up of redeemed Mariel). :) - ----------------------------------------- Axtar Djinn Baron of Fate Demon of Stasis Corporeal: 4- Strength: 15, Agility: 1 Ethereal: 3- Intelligence: 11, Precision: 1 Celestial: 6-Will: 16, Perception: 8 Word Forces: 13 Vessel: An elderly, white-bearded old man/4 Skills: Detect Lies/4, Fast-talk/2, Dodge/5, Driving/3, Savoir Faire/6, Martial Arts/6. Songs: Shields (All/4), Thunder (Celestial, Corporeal/4), Numinous Corpus (Claws)/3, Tongues (Ethereal/6), Entropy (All/6), Light (All/2), Harmony (Ethereal/6), Healing (All/6), Correspondence (All/4), Charm (Celestial/6). Attunements: Djinn of Fate, Balseraph of Fate, Shedite of Fate, Fated Future, Knight of Fate, Captain of Fate, Baron of Fate, Demon of Stasis. Demon of Stasis: Anyone who gets to within a few hundred yards of the Demon of Stasis begins not to care about anything anymore, slowing down physically and mentally. Prolonged exposure leads to an eventual cessation of all motion in every way. Rites: Spend two hours doing nothing when important matters are afoot. Bind someone else in helpless stasis. "The world is moving far too fast. Only in absolute stasis can one find absolute indifference." Appearance: A misshapen creature with the horned head of a bull, the quilled body of a porcupine, and the stinging tail of a scorpion, propelled by several centipede-like legs and two large, leathery black wings. History: Axtar is a rather unlikely demon whose origins would make him seemingly unsuited for any task but being the practice dummy for Baal's rookie warriors, yet he is on the fast track to power in Hell. Axtar got his start back in 709 A.D. as a Djinn of Corruption in service to Legion. At the time he wasn't really that noticeable. There were plenty of other demons about with far more promising careers than the lowly Djinn called Axtar. However, Axtar did stand out in one area. Unlike many Djinn who struggled to maintain a facade of apathy, Axtar didn't have to struggle. He honestly couldn't care less about what happened around him, which made him a rather poor Servitor of Corruption. He could hardly be bothered to stir himself for such petty things as actually corrupting people and institutions and only the fact that he was so low in the chain of command saved him from destruction by his Prince. Axtar's story began after the destruction of Legion by the combined forces of Heaven and Hell. In the fervent decimation of Legion's old Principality and Servitors, a mixed party of Servitors of Fate and The War stumbled across a lonely Djinn holding down a squealing Frotling by reclining on it. The War-Servitors, recognizing this as a Djinn of Corruption, made to destroy the creature. It didn't move, or even react. Threats failed to produce any sign of fear or defiance. A puzzled Habbalite of Fate used the Fated Future attunement on the Djinn, and then he slowly smiled. Calling off the frustrated War-Servitors, this Habbalite declared that Axtar had a grand Fate in store for him and brought him immediately back to his Prince Kronos. When Kronos read Axtar's Fate he shared his Habbalite's grin. The Habbalite was made a Knight for this discovery and an indifferent Axtar was ushered into the ranks of Fate. When Haagenti consumed Meserach, the Demon Prince of Sloth, and Mariel, the Demon Princess of Oblivion, Axtar's path was clear, yet he did not act. True to form, Axtar indifferently carried out his service to Prince Kronos, dully working his way up through the ranks with nary a thought for his promotions until one day Lucifer showed up at Kronos's behest. The Lightbringer took one look at the apathetic Djinn, who hadn't even bothered to bow or make any other sign of obesiance in the presence of Hell's Master, and granted him the Word of Stasis right there on the spot. Nowadays, Axtar slowly stumbles on towards a Princedom with nary a care. He was never truly noted for his intelligence, but Kronos hides a secret smile whenever Axtar's lack of wits and intelligence is brought up. He read Axtar's Fate and he knows just what Axtar will accomplish in bringing about the Fate of the universe as the Demon Prince of Stasis. Oh yes...a grand Fate indeed awaits Axtar.... ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Well, _that_ one was interesting to write. No great hidden meanings to this one, alas: just an angel with a Cause that makes Dominic slightly uncomfortable. hope y'all like. :) Morgan (SAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Needs Salt. Maybe a dash of oregano. Hatiphas Seraph Warder Mistress of Law Angel of Exorcism Corporeal Forces: 4 Strength: 8 Agility: 8 Ethereal Forces: 5 Intelligence:10 Precision: 10 Celestial Forces: 6 Will: 12 Perception: 12 Word-Forces: 15 Vessels: Human/4 (female) Skills: Alchemy/1*, Dodge/5, Emote/4, Enchantment/1*, Escape/3, Fighting/5, Knowledge (Cabals/6, Occultism/6, Sorcerers/6), Large Weapon (sword)/5, Necromancy/1*, Savoir-Faire/5, Seduction/6, Small Weapon/2 (dagger). Items marked with a * are skills Hatiphas has no intention of ever, ever using again. Sorcerous Skills: If it's a roll to recognize them, she's got an effective skill of 6. She can't use them, though, and wouldn't want to anyway. Sorcerous Rituals: As above. Songs: Affinity (all/3), Attraction (Ethereal/5, Celestial/3), Calling (all/6), Charm (Corporeal/4, Celestial/6), Entropy (Corporeal/6), Fire (Corporeal/4), Form (Ethereal/5), Light (Celestial/4), Shields (all/2), Tongues (all/3) Attunements: Seraph of Judgement, Elohite of Judgement, Heavenly Judgement, Advocate, Warder, Mistress of Law, Angel of Exorcism. Angel of Exorcism: 1) Hatiphas recognizes possessed people on sight. 2) Hatiphas has effective access to the Banishment and Exorcism rituals and skills, at a level equal to that of her Celestial Forces. She sometimes gives this out as a Servitor Attunement. Rites: : Kill a Sorcerer. : Take a heap of Grimoires and burn them to ashes (Hatiphas often combines this ritual with the one above). : Celestially slay a demon that is serving a Sorcerer. Artifacts: Flaming Sword/6 You would think that Redeeming would have made Hatiphas a nicer person. Well, that's unfair. Under most circumstances, she actually is fairly personable, in that special Seraphic sort of way. Granted, that means that she's inflexible about the Truth, cold, distant, and almost humorless, but that's hardly unusual for those of her Choir. Being a Servitor of Judgement explains a lot, too: in fact, she's a little more forgiving than the stereotype. After all, she's hardly able to be self-righteous, right? Until she finally saw the Light (thanks to her inability to ultimately reconcile her Word with her 'borrowed' Mercurian resonance), Hatiphas was worse than most angels ever fear of being. She's really not that bad, these days. Unless, of course, you start talking about Sorcery: when that happens, out comes the fanatical gaze, the twitching hands, and even (on really bad days) actual frothing at the mouth. Hatiphas doesn't like Sorcery any more. She really doesn’t like it. She likes it so little that there are times when she has to restrain herself from just going down to the corporeal plane and eviscerating Sorcerers at random. When that happens, she goes off by herself and calms down... and _then_ goes down to the corporeal plane and starts eviscerating, usually with a whole bunch of Malakim in tow. Sorcery was never a particularly safe career path in the past: now, it's starkly dangerous with her around. As the above might suggest, the Angel of Exorcism is an excellent example of the "Cower before the righteous anger of Heaven, thou pitiful slave of evil" type of angel. When she's worked up, anybody doing a sorcerous ritual within reach is best advised to run, quickly. This can include the innocuous stuff, incidentally: alchemists and enchanters had better be squeaky, squeaky clean if they want to survive an encounter with Hatiphas. Necromancers are advised to not even try. Even the few White Sorcerers aren't safe. Dominic isn't completely pleased with all of this, incidentally: yes, it's useful (and fairly amusing) to watch Sorcery's former patron wipe out its practitioners, but if Hatiphas doesn't begin to get this loathing under control soon, she might start allocating punishments out of proportion to the crime. Dominic couldn't care less about Hellsworn Sorcerers getting killed messily, but there's already been a time or two where Hatiphas barely kept her homicidal impulses under control while facing the innocent. The Archangel of Judgement has even started to wonder whether this might be one of the few cases where Novalis' input might be useful. Of course, he'd really prefer that things didn't get so bad. Aside from everything else, Judgement calling in Flowers for help is a pretty good indication that _someone's_ screwed up somehow, and it _was_ Dominic who insisted that this Word get assigned to him... ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:36:06 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> In Nomine animals. >James Walker wrote: >> Excepting that Free Will is Canonically unclear for everybody, and lack >>of> sentience prevents animals feeling pain etc. >> Think about that..... > > >Lack of sentience has nothing to do with feeling pain. Living creatures >can have feelings without being sentient. No. > >(Actually, I think that technically the term is "sapient," but >"sentient" is the word that's usually (mis)used to mean >"self-aware/intelligent"). As 'sentient' means 'having senses/being able to percieve/feel' that's an important point. Sapient can means 'wise, or human' - mutually exclusive meanings? :-) Are people arguing that animals are not self-aware? If not, what are you saying? If So - then no, they cannot feel pain, suffer, or anything else. There is a whole slab of philosophy which tries to deal with cruelty with animals without accepting animal self-awareness and even the people who wrote it (like Kant) aren't impressed with it. You are your (self)awareness. If an animal isn't self-aware then there is nothing to 'feel' - an animal is no different to a computerized car that can determine when it has been damaged in a crash. To torturing an animal is no different to smashing the car. (And if you are prepared to accept this, you're sick.) >Regardless, we have a specific Canonical answer to the Free Will or >lack thereof of animals. *All* animal souls go to Heaven. No, the most spiritually advanced go to Heaven > I daresay >none of them discorporate or reincarnate, and none go to Hell. Why? Buddhism, Hinduism & Daoism are the reincarnation religions - all believe that animals reincarnate - and that humans can be reincarnated as animals and visa versa. Also, if an animal has no Celestial Forces, then it will have to disband, unless: - -You have forgotten the Marches. If animals dream (which they do) then they can become Dream-Shades. I imagine the Ethereals used to recruit animals actively! - - And no animal has gone to Hell - yet. That is known of. Given that Kronos considers them insignificant, that doesn't mean much. >If none go to Hell, the issue of Destiny and Fate -- the key of Free >Will -- is moot. No - not unless you consider the question of whether Malakim have Free Will moot; or believe that Free Will did not exist until the Fall. Animals cannot achieve their Fate and go to Hell. Have not. Cannot is a very different word! >They do not have the choice to do so. Therefore, they do not have >Free Will. No, because they have Destinies, and you must choose your Destiny; it cannot be forced. Mind you, if animals choose to follow their Destiny instinctively (unless taught otherwise) that would give us a reason for Jordi's dislike of humans; the first critter to refuse its' Destiny was probably human. Jordi decides to wipe out the species to prevent the 'infection' spreading...... Finally - we need to keep this consistant with the In Nomine setting; Animals can have ethereal and celestial Forces. I'm assuming that self-awareness is linked to these; probably ethereal Forces, as their is a writeup of a zombi who understands her plight (ex-SOG, can't remember which book). We should probably consider zombis and remnant during this argument; we're more likely to agree on something that will be broad enough to be useful. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:39:14 -0800 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> I'm bored... From: Charles E Smith <> Asmodeus would be cool. Kobal's been done, twice that I know of, once in Dark Victory http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/seeds/DarkVictory/dv_kobal.h tml ) and once on this list within the past month. (Not to say you couldn't do him again and be interesting--just that I personally would be a lot more interested in seeing Moe's take on Azzie.) - -- Kish ICQ#: 28085879 AIM: Kish K M Kish_K@mindspring.replacewithcom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:42:49 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1913 >By the way, Anthroposophists have an interesting view of animal >souls, if I understand them correctly. They believe that most >species lack individual souls but instead have collective souls, >incarnate in all members at once. That sounds very Jordian to >me, he being a Kyrio and all. Perhaps the group souls are the >Worded Angels of Whatevers, or perhaps they are their own >class of spirit, and you would have, say, the Angel of Butterflies >looking after the group-souls of each individual butterfly species. > >Earl I've crossed that elsewhere; the variant I came across had an interesting twist; domesticated animals became linked to the human group soul, giving them independent souls who joined their human 'friends' in Heaven. (MInd you, this was explained to a child who'd lost a pet, so whether the guy saying believed is unclear. On the other hand, IIRC the early church council which decided that animals do not have souls also voted on whether women have souls; the vote only passed by four vote and only because the ex-druidic bishops voted as a block in favour.) As a final point, animal means 'soul' or 'breath'. (As in Anima/Animus from Jungian Pyschology) Animate comes from animal, not the other way around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:48:55 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: >Subject: IN> Balakite Thought >... and it's a nasty one. Leave first two oaths as >is. > >"Suffer not an evil to live, if it is my choice" can >still work, considering that Kronos is still the Bal's >boss, and can simply order him or her to not attack >_anybody_ without specific orders, or in self-defense. > Of course, this makes his Balakim quivering, tortured >souls, desperately hoping that Kronos will choose to >release them on someone, anyone, soon... but we knew >he was a nasty piece of work anyway, right? They're Balseraphs - they'll just persuade themselves that they're not evil, but heaven is! > >"Never surrender or allow myself to be captured by the >forces of Lucifer." Well, the Game _can_ be annoying, >even to the Prince of Fate. Best to keep them far >away. And if you don't surrender or get captured by ANYBODY, then clearly you haven't violated the oath.... >Best of all, with the right other two oaths, it's >kinda hard to tell from their honor/dishonor levels >whether they're Balakim! > >No doubt I'm about to be proved wrong. :) > >Moe CD 6 will do it as always; however there are some uses for this. On a related thought, do the Habbalah of Fate consider these Balseraphs to be angels? And visa-versa? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:54:58 +1100 From: "Azrael/Demigouge" Subject: Re: IN> New Heretics.... From: "James Walker" Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:11 AM > >[snip] you want a challenge, Moe? Redeem Kronos! > If Kronos' Fate is to fail to corrupt the world, then seeking redemption > would be one way of acheiving it... > A simpler, sadder option is a demon of Fate who knows that he's Fated to be > destroyed attempting redemption...(But what would his Destiny be?) > *blink* *blinkblink* Given that a Fate is the *worst* thing that they can do to the Symphony, how can Kronos failing to corrupt the Symphony be his Fate? Suceeding in corrupting the world, having everything achieve their Fate, but not their Destiny, would be the Fate of Kronos. Redeeming the Prince of Fate would be that one step closer to achieving his Destiny. Similar comments on the demon of Fate. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 01:05:52 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. At 4:36 PM -0800 11/9/00, James Walker wrote: >Are people arguing that animals are not self-aware? If not, what are you >saying? No. We are saying that animals don't have the capacity for conceptual reasoning. Which is why no animal has yet competed on Iron Chef. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:12:09 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re:IN> I'm bored... Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:55:51 -0500 From: "C. Sean Holliday" Subject: Re:IN> I'm bored... >okay, since you need something twisted to maintain >your reputation try this: > make GOD jump >C. Sean Holliday "Momo-chan" To quote Daffy Duck, "It's a neat trick, but I can only do it ONCE." Now, that isn't to say you can't keep the campaign running. On the one hand, all the AA's have the choice of not Jumping, and thus disobeying God's will; OTOH, when they all do, then it's gonna get crowded in Hell. OTGH, Lucifer and the DPs would probably duck out pronto. They are Rebels, after all, and by now they've pretty much gone past "loyal-yet-determined-to-affirm-their-rights" to "we want the whole megillah". So, they retreat: hey, look, Heaven's abandoned! They'll have to adapt to that entire Light of Heaven thing, of course, but there's some obvious templates to use. Lucifer goes upstairs to check things out, takes up the reins of power, and doesn't come back down. Kronos starts to smile more often. An oddly friendly smile. Err, this is starting to look familiar... ;) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:18:31 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Trials - Freedom (Part 1) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:19:45 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Michael's Trials - Freedom (Part 1) Interesting start. _Nasty_ thing that Laurence said to Lilith, BTW. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 06:19:21 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) >Well, _that_ one was interesting to write. No great >hidden meanings to this one, alas: just an angel with >a Cause that makes Dominic slightly uncomfortable. >hope y'all like. :) > >Morgan (SAW) >Kyriotate of Destiny >Petitioner for the Word of Needs Salt. Maybe a dash >of oregano. > >Hatiphas >Seraph Warder Mistress of Law >Angel of Exorcism heh heh heh cool. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:00:56 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) According to the In Nomine rules (canon), White Sorcerers are usualy exorcists. In fact, exorcism and banishment are sorcery rituals (unless the option rule in the Game Master's Guide is used). Therefore, if Hatiphas is the angel of exorcism, then she would not slaughter white sorcerers. She might hack down evil sorcerers with relish, but would foster benevolent sorcerers, who use their powers for good. Subject: Re:IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:33:18 -0800 (PST) Maurice Lane wrote: >Well, _that_ one was interesting to write. No great >hidden meanings to this one, alas: just an angel with >a Cause that makes Dominic slightly uncomfortable. >hope y'all like. :) [snip] well, i think she'd keep the Enchantment skill at 6--it's useful for creating artifacts, after all, and anyone in Heaven without the Elohite of Creation attunement is going to need that for helping to make stuff for the Good Guys. however, i appreciate that she's still unbalanced enough that she's been punishing the innocent unjustly. she might need to transfer to a different Archangel or get her act together quick. i like her bunches :) well done, Moe. -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1914 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.