From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 9 14:12:58 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19332 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:12:57 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA28204 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:10:54 -0600 Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:10:54 -0600 Message-Id: <200011092010.OAA28204@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1915 In this digest: IN> Creating life with Transubstantiation Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> Creating life with Transubstantiation Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) IN> Self Aware Animals Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Re: IN> Self Aware Animals Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) IN> Baka!! Re: IN> Creating life with Transubstantiation Re: IN> New Heretics.... Re: IN> Ebay Surfing... IN> Vapula seed Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Re: IN> In Nomine animals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:25:59 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Creating life with Transubstantiation Question for you people One of my player is a Servitor of Creation with the Transubstantiation attunment. He also has a Bound/6 discord (don't ask) and was asking me what happened if his vessel was distroyed. The FAQ says that after Trauma, he can bind himself to an object, thus becoming a living artifact. So here's the question: if he binds to a statue (representing a human or animal), can he continually use his Transubstantiation to slowly bring the statue to life? I'd like to say no, but can't find any argument for that. On the other hand, a living statue can make a... erm... an interresting character*. Laurent. * Not as good as a cigar-chewing combat squirrel, I give you that, but still... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 07:34:39 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. James Walker wrote: > Are people arguing that animals are not self-aware? Yes. > If So - then no, they cannot feel pain, suffer, or anything else. Incorrect. Self-awareness is not a requirement for having nerve endings. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:37:57 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. At 7:34 AM -0600 11/9/00, David Edelstein wrote: >James Walker wrote: > >> If So - then no, they cannot feel pain, suffer, or anything else. > >Incorrect. Self-awareness is not a requirement for having nerve endings. Exactly. Let's put it more directly in In Nomine terms -- which is to say theological ones. Are you arguing that animals have the capacity to understand good and evil, philosophically? To understand sin? To rationally decide to follow a path between objective selflessness and objective selfishness? It seems evident they do not. Really, a certain type of animal *seems* selfless or selfish to our viewpoint, when really they're simply acting like typical animals of their species and according to their level of domestication. A dog imprints on his master, and becomes almost slavish to their Master's needs (Man, think of the Geas/1's a Lilim in a dog vessel can rack up with a game of fetch). A horse will, once broken to harness, keep working until death. Are these selfless behaviors? No, they're bred, conditioned and trained behaviors. Likewise, a cat stereotypically doesn't purr on command or sit on someone's lap unless they want to. Are cats selfish? Or simply not as domesticated as dogs? Let's add a level of confusion with show cats -- who are bred in part for 'personality,' and who generally follow commands much more consistantly than "American Domestic Shorthairs." Is this selflessness? Do only show cats go to Heaven? No. Cats go to Heaven. More to the point, they explicitly do *not* go to Hell. Nor do dogs or horses, whether they're selfless or "spirited." Or downright mean. We stipulate they have souls (which is to say Celestial Forces), but do not have the capacity to conceptualize about their choices. That's the answer supported by the game evidence, which we're stipulating is correct. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:02:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. David Edelstein wrote: > James Walker wrote: > > Are people arguing that animals are not self-aware? > > Yes. > > > If So - then no, they cannot feel pain, suffer, or anything else. > > Incorrect. Self-awareness is not a requirement for having nerve > endings. Um. But nerve endings are not sufficient qualification for feeling pain. They report sensations, the question is WHAT they report sensation to. There's a delicate distinction here between awareness and SELF-awareness. It's hard to appreciate because we are (mostly) self-aware every waking moment, but the distinction can still exists. It's the difference between just hurting and being able to think "I hurt" (with or without words). There are probably lots of animals -- I'd guess all vertebrates and cephalopods -- that can have sensations like pain. Probably only the most advanced can have any self-concept. Where's the cut-off? Very tricky question. It's almost impossible for me to believe that the smarter dogs and cats don't have a bit of self-concept, but there are scientists who seem very reluctant to grant it even to chimps. (I consider this irrational, but that's me.) IN content: I'd expect to see lots of higher vertebrates on Jordi's Savannah, but things like frogs and bugs would exist only as Essence constructs or, to go back to my previous post, as manifestations of species group-souls. The recently-posted idea that lots of animal souls go to the Marches, possibly to later reincarnate, is also good. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:14:45 GMT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. The recently-posted >idea that lots of animal souls go to the Marches, possibly to >later reincarnate, is also good. > >Earl I can't remember if the section about the dreams of animals and plants made it into S3 or not, but in my notes for that (which I can prolly dig out when I get home), they tended to have a group species subconscious. I did like the stfuf about the dreams of trees :-) jo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:37:36 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:00:56 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) >According to the In Nomine rules (canon), White >Sorcerers are usualy exorcists. In fact, exorcism and >banishment are sorcery rituals (unless the >option rule in the Game Master's Guide is used). >Therefore, if Hatiphas is the angel of exorcism, then >she would not slaughter white sorcerers. >She might hack down evil sorcerers with relish, but >would foster benevolent sorcerers, who use their >powers for good. Nope, as I've written her, for two reasons: 1) She's not very sane. The Redemption process didn't produce the usual "sweetness and light, happy-shiny angel with big puppy-dog eyes" this time around. Nope, Hatiphas is obsessive, fairly angry, and Word-bound to Exorcism, _not_ White Sorcery. She wants the demons OUT. Killing Sorcerers is simply an effective way to do that - and a hobby. 2) She's working for an Archangel who has declared Sorcery an infernal discipline. There are AAs out there who might think exorcism and banishment to be barely tolerable, but Nikki ain't one of them. I'm getting this from the CPG, BTW: the below is just my interpetation. Now, Nikki isn't an idiot, either: exorcists can be a tool for Heaven. They're just not very _reliable_, as you have to learn some dark lore to use the bright stuff. Now she's got a Word-bound who can duplicate the effect of the only two (in Nikki's eyes) useful Sorcerous rituals, _and_ who can give the ability to others. The AA of Judgement no longer has to look the other way. YMMV, as always. :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:41:21 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Doesn't one of the rule-books (I think its Night Music) have a dog that's a Soldier of God? That suggests that animals at least have the potential for self-awareness (after all, humans evolved from apes). Perhaps most animals do not have a concept of self, but some can develop them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:52:56 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. At 7:41 AM -0800 11/9/00, Bevan Thomas wrote: >Doesn't one of the rule-books (I think its Night Music) have a dog that's a >Soldier of God? That suggests that animals at least have the potential for >self-awareness (after all, humans evolved from apes). Perhaps most animals >do not have a concept of self, but some can develop them. Oh God, I hope *not.* The idea of a dog using Songs and potentially attunements frankly bothers me, unless that dog is a Celestial in disguise. But, given the Revelations Cycle, I can't swear it didn't happen. If it did, it's just another example of In Nomine being driven towards its collective Fate during the Interregnum. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:56:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. Bevan Thomas wrote: > Doesn't one of the rule-books (I think its Night Music) have a > dog that's a Soldier of God? Yep. I don't recall that he used Songs or anything. He was more of a Lassie/Rin-Tin-Tin Wonder Dog. Was he Eli's or Jodri's or someone else's bright idea? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:51:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. At 4:36 PM -0800 11/9/00, James Walker wrote: >>James Walker wrote: >>(Actually, I think that technically the term is "sapient," but >>"sentient" is the word that's usually (mis)used to mean >>"self-aware/intelligent"). >As 'sentient' means 'having senses/being able to percieve/feel' that's an >important point. Sapient can means 'wise, or human' - mutually exclusive >meanings? :-) David's right -- semantically, "sapient" is the "self-aware" one; the one which generally means intelligent. But "sentient" is commonly (mis)used as a synonym. >Are people arguing that animals are not self-aware? If not, what are you >saying? >If So - then no, they cannot feel pain, suffer, or anything else. No, I don't think that's what self-aware means. Self-aware means, as far as I've ever been told, that one is aware of _oneself_. I.e., you think about what you do, and _why_ you do it. You have the ability of abstract thought. Furthermore, www.dictionary.com rather agrees with me: self-aware adj. Aware of oneself as an individual entity or personality. From long co-habitation with cats, I would say that cats have very little SELF-awareness. They are quite capable of feeling pain (DUH), and even sometimes seem to have a _vague_ awareness that I (or the other cats) are "other than self," but they don't think of their own natures, near as I can tell. (They might "punish" me for locking them out, or yell to control me, but they don't really modify their own behavior out of a desire to "be nice.") At 10:56 AM -0500 11/9/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Bevan Thomas wrote: > >> Doesn't one of the rule-books (I think its Night Music) have a >> dog that's a Soldier of God? > >Yep. I don't recall that he used Songs or anything. He was more >of a Lassie/Rin-Tin-Tin Wonder Dog. Was he Eli's or Jodri's or >someone else's bright idea? Eli's. Perhaps granting that much sapience to an animal would give it the choice humans have. Perhaps that dog _can_ meet its fate now. Maybe that's the price of sapience. (Any wonder why Dominic ain't so thrilled about Eli? Jordi _ought_ to be snitty if he discovered that one, but maybe Jordi is a little Word-blinded here and thinks that animals _cannot_ be 'bad,' sapient or otherwise.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:55:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Creating life with Transubstantiation At 11:25 AM +0000 11/9/00, Laurent wrote: >[...] So here's the >question: if he binds to a statue (representing a human or animal), can he >continually use his Transubstantiation to slowly bring the statue to life? I'd >like to say no, but can't find any argument for that. On the other hand, a >living statue can make a... erm... an interresting character*. Eeeeg, nonononononono. (Well, yes, interesting, but...) Transub doesn't create alive life, anyway, IIRC. So if the Bound critter makes the statue organic, then it's probably going to rot. Ewwwwwwwwwww. Good way to surprise Shedim of Death, though. (Unless, of course, you _want_ the character to be able to re-create a vessel this way. In which case, be my guest and congratulate the player on creativity!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:34:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) At 9:33 PM -0800 11/8/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >Well, _that_ one was interesting to write. No great >hidden meanings to this one, alas: just an angel with >a Cause that makes Dominic slightly uncomfortable. >hope y'all like. :) [...] >Hatiphas >Seraph Warder Mistress of Law >Angel of Exorcism Heeheehee. [...] >Skills: Alchemy/1*, Dodge/5, Emote/4, Enchantment/1*, [...] >Items marked with a * are skills >Hatiphas has no intention of ever, ever using again. What's wrong with Enchantment? Enchantment is the skill used by _anyone_ when making a relic? (Well, I think some Creationers get a jumpstart, or are automatically assumed to have the skill, but everyone else...) [...] >Rites: >: Kill a Sorcerer. >: Take a heap of Grimoires and burn them to ashes >(Hatiphas often combines this ritual with the one >above). Gabriel showing up at a scene and peeeeeeeering at this process. Gabriel goes *poof* and appears in Heaven, looking at Dominic with Big Anime Eyes in the middle of whirling rings of flame. This kind of cute little voice from the middle of the firestorm says, "I like that one. Can I have her?" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:57:03 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: IN> Self Aware Animals This is an old argument, on the list and on; Are animals self aware? In reality... Since Humans are, by definition, anmials, the answer is yes (with some specific exceptions, naturally (insert Father in law joke here)). If you want to change the question to Are animals other than humans self aware, then the answer is maybe some species are (the Great Apes, for a start). This is the only answer that i have seen that is actually supported by studies, and even then to get to certainty, you have to ignore the studies that do not support your pet (sorry) theory. In IN... Well, there does not appear to be Canon on it, as yet. I suspect that the Superior write up of Jordi will add fuel to this argument (by the way, is he scheduled yet? And with whom will he be included? And when referring to a Kyriotate, is a singular pronoun appropriate?). I would, however, point out Superiors 4, Yves Write up, Archangelic opinions, Jordi says something to the effect of "Animals have destiny. He understands that." Someone who has the book can correct the quote. If they have destinies, then do they have fates? And how do they choose one path or another, if they do not have the free will to choose? Is there a section in hell where imps spend eternity hitting the souls of Dogs on the nose with rolled up magazines, all the while chanting "Bad Dog! Bad Dog!"? - -Daiv A fine line between coffee and insanity that is where i live ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 2000 09:11:08 -0800 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) On Wed, 08 November 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > Hatiphas > Seraph Warder Mistress of Law > Angel of Exorcism Interesting. Personally, I would have given her to Khalid, since Exorcism seems to fall naturally under Faith, and Faith is traditionally at odds with the occult. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 12:09:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Self Aware Animals daiv@cruzio.com wrote: > If they have destinies, then do they have fates? And how do they > choose one path or another, if they do not have the free will to > choose? The destiny of a *higher* animal is probably to attain some bit of spiritual insight and therefore spend a happy eternity in Jordi's Savannah. It's fate would be to fail to attain that insight, and thus disband, reincarnate, or go to the Marches at death, but not go to Hell. According to the main book, the only "animals" in Hell are really human souls that take on the appearance of animals as they are gradually Force-stripped down to nothing by Saminga's servitors. Free will is an independent question. It's VERY easy for me to believe that cats, for instance, have free will, but they don't use it to choose between good and evil. More typically, they use it to dither in doorways and choose between going out or not. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 12:14:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) Casca wrote: > Interesting. Personally, I would have given her to Khalid, since > Exorcism seems to fall naturally under Faith, and Faith is > traditionally at odds with the occult. Only if you use "faith" to mean "religion" or "religious faith" rather than "loyalty" or "trust." Religious faith is one particular kind of faith. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:19:27 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Burn! Burn, foul minion of Evil! BURN! (Heretical) At 9:11 AM -0800 11/9/00, Casca wrote: >On Wed, 08 November 2000, Maurice Lane wrote: > >> Hatiphas >> Seraph Warder Mistress of Law >> Angel of Exorcism > >Interesting. Personally, I would have given her to Khalid, since >Exorcism seems to fall naturally under Faith, and Faith is >traditionally at odds with the occult. Oo. *Oo.* You've given me an idea, Casca.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:23:49 -0000 From: "I. Inayat" Subject: IN> Baka!! (The idea popped into my head. I can't apologise enough... This is my first writeup. Hope I didn't get things too wrong.) Iggy Kyriotate of Creation IST to Dreams Angel of Anime Corporeal Forces: 3 (Strength: 4 Agility: 8) Ethereal Forces: 4 (Intelligence: 10 Precision: 6) Celestial Forces: 5 (Will: 12 Perception: 8) Word Forces: 10 Skills: Artistry (Animation)/3, Computer Operation/2, Dodge/5, Fast-Talk/1, Knowledge (Anime/4, Animation/2), Languages (English/4, Japanese/4), Large Weapon (Mallet/1) , Savoir-Faire/3, Throwing/2 Songs: Banishing (Corporeal/2, Ethereal/3), Calling (Ethereal/1), Dreams (all/3), Fire (Ethereal/1), Form (Celestial/1), Healing (Corporeal/2, Ethereal/3), Light (Ethereal/3), Motion (Corporeal/1), Numinous Corpus (eyes/1), Possession/2, Shattering (Ethereal/2), Shields (Corporeal/1), Tongues (Ethereal/1) Attunements: Kyriotate of Creation, Malakite of Creation, Ofanite of Creation, Abracadabra, Kyriotate of Dreams, Dream Walking, Angel of Anime. Angel of Anime: As the Angel of Anime, Iggy has a variant of Laurence's Scabbard attunement, allowing her to store objects outside normal space. In _his_ case, it ends up being the home of the Really Big Mallet (see below), and providing an almost endless stream of signs. (In her more depressed moments, and knowing this is a staple of anime, Iggy has been known to produce her attunement as a sign God has a *warped* sense of humour) He can also alter a dreamscape without a Will roll - so long as the alteration is an exaggeration of what's already there (making things brighter, goofier, larger than life, or OTT). All other changes still require a Will roll. Artifact: Really Big Mallet (Large Weapon talisman/3). Eli's gift to her on her Word-binding. It may be _embarrassing_, yeah... but it's useful as Hell. Rites: - Introduce someone to anime for the first time. - Help someone write an anime script and get it accepted. Celestial appearance: Well, Iggy's still a floating cloud of eyes, hands, noses, mouths, ears, etcetera... it's just that they all seem to be _anime_ eyes, hands, etc. Big, wide eyes, small, non-existant mouths, noses... you get the idea. Iggy obeys Blandine's dissonance conditions.religiously, even though s/he doesn't actually _need_ to (Iggy sees him/herself as multi-gendered... which is confusing for his/her colleagues, as s/he is quite capable of switching nominal gender while you're having a conversation...). Even for a Kyriotate, Iggy's confused. Not confus*ing*; that's par for the course when you're a Domination. Confused. So confused, it's starting to give Iggy a migrane. And it all started so simply, too... Iggy was created by Eli early this century, before Eli went on his great walkabout ... and was almost immediately placed in service to Blandine. (Eli: 'Here, look after the kid while I'm gone, willya?') Iggy, unlike many Creationers, didn't feel abandoned by Eli; it's more like having an absent-minded, really, *really*, cool uncle who drops in from time to time, and has all sorts of neat presents... So... Iggy meandered on through the decades, doing her/his best to promote creativity and imagination, and safeguard people's dreams from Nightmares... until the mid-80s, which was when Iggy saw his/her first anime episode. (Battle of the Planets, to be exact.) It didn't occur to the Kyriotate that this could be a way to promote creativity, or that this could be an art form in its own right, or that this could help support hope and Dreams. No, Iggy simply wanted to know _what happened next_. And s/he eventually managed to build up quite the celestial video collection (s/he's still seen in Yves' Library, tracking down the latest releases). S/he wasn't even _considering_ a Word; s/he simply saw it as a hobby s/he had in his/her spare time. So he continued seeing his friends, went on protecting his Words, and basically kept Doing Her Job. Doing what a good angel should. And it was while s/he was Doing His Job (specifcally, exploring the Marches)... ...that Iggy got hit by a lightning bolt. When the smoke cleared, Iggy found that s/he had been Word-bound... but s/he didn't know what the Word actually _was_. So, like a good Servitor of Heaven, s/he reported to the Divine Inquisition post-haste. The Inquisitors were surprised to find a Servitor of Creation actually _asking_ them to interrogate him/her... and were even _more_ surprised to find that the Servitor had been Word-bound. Since Iggy hadn't actually done anything _wrong_, they did the only thing they could do; dumped her/him on the Seraphim Council for _them_ to deal with. Iggy was a bit clueless about the situation, really: she didn't want to be Word-bound, she just wanted the Word taken from her so she could go back to looking after people's dreams and watching her favourite anime series. Then someone on the Council explained what Word-stripping actually _meant_. When all the political kerfuffle settled, the Seraphim Council found it had a new Word-bound, and Iggy found he had the Word of Anime. _That_ was when the trouble started. Whenever there was a gloating, Belial-inspired plot to destroy a Domain, Iggy managed to find himself at ground zero for the bomb. Whenever the latest piece of Vaputech mech went on a rampage, Iggy would be ambling (in one or more hosts) down the street where said mecha was rampaging. Whenever a horde of nightmares invaded Blandine's side of the Vale, who should happen to be working in the nearest dreamscape but Iggy? Whenever the latest, newly discovered Song backfired, guess who'd get caught in the effect, completely unawares? Janus _loves_ this Domination, and is seriously considering asking that Iggy be placed in his service. So is Michael. And then there's the (very polite) transfer form Laurence handed in to the Seraphim Council, and Novalis' (equally polite) meetings with Eli. Christopher has been asking Iggy if he'd mind 'coming over and recommending some videos'... and it's rumoured that Jordi has been seen actually _asking to see a videotape_. Then there's the fan club Iggy seems to have acquired, with a disproportionate number of Bright Lilim, Kyriotates, and relievers... And _then_ there's the grudge the Demon of Animation (an Impudite of Nybbas) bears him, as well as all those times Iggy keeps spoiling the Demon of Hentai's plans... (There is no Angel of Animation. The last holder of that Word was killed in the mid-60s. Iggy is strenuously refusing a promotion... s/he has _enough_ on her hands as it is...) The Shedite of Anime, on the other hand, seems to be taking a rather personal interest in Iggy, above and beyond what one might expect of Word-bound on opposite sides... ...and then there's the relationship with the Angel of Otaku, and the way that Elohite Servitor of his keeps looking at him, and those shy glances she's getting from her reliever 'secretary'... Not forgetting the Japanese kami. Yes, many of them work with Nybbas, but once the news got out that there was an _angel_ trying to promote _them_ (even if it was inadvertantly)... ...well, Iggy's found himself in a situation where he has to be _very_, _very_ careful. Those kami who've met him actually _like_ the embarrased, somewhat confused Kyrio; she reminds them of someone(s). Problem is, the Inquisition doesn't exactly smile on working with ethereals... or helping them promote themselves. Then again, it is a way to get them working with Heaven - leaving Iggy torn between turning herself in, or keeping up the contact... And _then_ there's actually promoting Iggy's Word. The last few years have seen a boost in Iggy's Word-Forces, as Anime started to break into mainstream Western markets. Iggy doesn't know whether to praise or damn the inventor of Pokemon... although she has her suspicions. Were Iggy anything other than a Domination, he'd have snapped under the pressure by now. As it is... ...Iggy's utterly confused; why was it _him/her?_ After all, Anime isn't _that_ important a Word. Is it? Stay tuned... - -- Imran ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:38:54 -0000 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Creating life with Transubstantiation > Transub doesn't create alive life, anyway, IIRC. wow! I've got to write this one down... what, you mean like, dead life?? hehehe... just kidding. I'm still a bit confused, though, and I didn't find anything on Transub on the INC. > So if the Bound critter makes the statue organic, then it's probably going to rot. oh, so it's more kind of animate stuff, or make it temporarilly alive? Ok, I've got two scenarios in mind, is one of them correct? The angel takes a basket of dirt and turns it into a live fish. After a while (how long?), the fish 1) just turns back to dirt, and everything is fine. 2) starts decomposing, because although it's alive, it doesn't have any complex way of regenerating cells, or whatever. The following day, only the fishbones remain, no dirt, no flesh. Or is it just the dirt that is being animated and takes the aspect of a fish, and there is in fact no fish at all, and it's just a visual trick or something? What about this one: the angel can use the statue as a live body (if not a vessel), but keeps on decomposing because of theory 2. He must use at least one Transub a day (depending on attunment duration) to regenerate his body, etc. That would make the character even more interesting... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:32:18 GMT From: "Brad Julius" Subject: Re: IN> New Heretics.... >A simpler, sadder option is a demon of Fate who knows that he's Fated to be >destroyed attempting redemption...(But what would his Destiny be?) Unfortunately the only Destiny I CAN see for Kronos is self-destruction. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:49:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ebay Surfing... At 7:25 PM -0600 11/8/00, Charles Glasgow wrote: >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" >> If anyone cares, there's a white hardback at >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=493186475 >> starting at $7 with about $3.50 for Shipping... (Still there, too. What, nobody wants to be an angel? O:> )* >However, Ebay has a few quaint native customs and hazards that can bite the >unwary in the butt if they're not careful. > >Kent Orlando, aka "Cheeks The Toy Wonder", wrote an Ebay survival guide for >the serious collector.[...] >http://toywonder.simplenet.com/SlowEbayRant.htm >(Note -- unless you have broadband, turn images off [...] Majorly funny, and indeed, quite true. (My tactic is to simply bid the maximum I'm willing to spend on something I want, and c'est la vie if someone else gets it. Worked quite nicely on some of the In Nomine Smif art I've gotten. (Man, sometimes people don't bid on his stuff -- I actually once gave him extra money when purchasing my pieces because I thought I'd stolen the stuff at minimum bid. I mean, geeze, when the frame cost will be more than the art cost, something's _wrong_.)) * (Yes, I have harbored occasional notions about being a runner in a convention art show. I mean, one would get to fondle all the pieces, right?) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:49:14 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Vapula seed It isn't easy to be the only sane one in the asylum. Sparky's on the books as Vapula's chief lab assistant: what he _actually_ is the one that's supposed to keep the Prince of Technology on track. There's a bunch of stuff that needs to get done, whether or not it's interesting, and Vapula has this distressing habit of wandering off boring research projects. Sparky's the only one who's ever managed to both keep his Superior on track, AND stay alive in the process. It's fairly well known in Hell that, if you really need it done, talk to Sparky _first_. Such notoriety isn't precisely welcome, since it also means that when say, Kronos or Baal get annoyed, they also go and _yell_ at Sparky first. He's grimly certain that they're probably going to do that very soon, with good reason. After all, they've told him, time and time again, to keep Vapula away from genre fiction... The Prince of Technology just _loves_ genre fiction. Horror, Science Fiction, Fantasy, Technothrillers, you name it, he'll want to read it. The weirder the idea, the more plausable he'll find it... and he's got an unlimited research budget. Well, this time Vapula's gotten at the hard stuff. Somehow, _somebody_ slipped him some Lovecraft: when Sparky catches up to that idiot, Bad Things are going to happen. Sparky wants a trussed up demon to point to when Asmodeus comes in screaming... But back to the problem at hand. Vapula got to reread "The Shadow over Innsmouth", and the gibbering could be heard all over Tartarus. Now, all the Prince thinks about is genetic engineering, gene splicing, invasive surgery, and whatever else would be necessary to create his very own Deep Ones... or worse, oooh, a Shoggoth. That'd be neat. Sparky needs to stamp on this one, fast, which means that he needs to get the corporeal labs that would form the backbone of Vapula's research temporarily unavailable. 'Temporarily' is the key word here: he just needs them shut down long enough for somebody else to slip Vapula a mystery novel or better, a sitcom tape. Hope the PCs are up for a subtle job... What, you're wondering why Hell doesn't just let Vapula go ahead and do this? Are you INSANE? Don't you remember what happened when they let him read "The Stars My Destination"? They still haven't gotten that bunch of test subjects chipped out of the wall. And let's not even talk about that disasterous "Godzilla period": there are parts of Hades that still haven't been rebuilt, and the damn thing didn't even _look_ right... :) Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Everything else (not that there is, right now): http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/main.html Last updated 9/5/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 19:51:09 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. >At 4:36 PM -0800 11/9/00, James Walker wrote: >>Are people arguing that animals are not self-aware? If not, what are you >>saying? > >No. We are saying that animals don't have the capacity for conceptual >reasoning. Which is why no animal has yet competed on Iron Chef. Uhhh... I thought they didn't participate on Iron Chef because they didn't have opposible thumbs. Excpet for monkeys, they don't participate because of the Fire issues . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:03:44 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. >>James Walker wrote: >> >>> If So - then no, they cannot feel pain, suffer, or anything else. >> >>Incorrect. Self-awareness is not a requirement for having nerve endings. > >Exactly. Whooooathere. Just because something has nerve endings *does not* mean that they sense pain. Sensing pain requires (1) working nerve endings, (2) and intepretating the information as pain. I think what you mean to say is that animals can sense pain (easily evidenced by my little brother yelping in pain. Oh, did I say little brother? I meant his dog.) >Let's put it more directly in In Nomine terms -- which is to say >theological ones. > >Are you arguing that animals have the capacity to understand good and >evil, philosophically? To understand sin? To rationally decide to >follow a path between objective selflessness and objective >selfishness? It seems evident they do not. Uhhh . . . maybe . . . but I'm pretty sure that chimps see the difference between right and wrong. (as defined subjectively, just as humans do) Really, a certain type of >animal *seems* selfless or selfish to our viewpoint, when really >they're simply acting like typical animals of their species and >according to their level of domestication. A dog imprints on his >master, and becomes almost slavish to their Master's needs (Man, >think of the Geas/1's a Lilim in a dog vessel can rack up with a game >of fetch). Depends on who's doing the favor for whom . . . A horse will, once broken to harness, keep working until >death. Are these selfless behaviors? No, they're bred, conditioned >and trained behaviors. And no animal has *ever* turned on its "master". "Conditioned" like humans going to church, your point? Likewise, a cat stereotypically doesn't purr >on command or sit on someone's lap unless they want to. Are cats >selfish? Or simply not as domesticated as dogs? Let's add a level of >confusion with show cats -- who are bred in part for 'personality,' >and who generally follow commands much more consistantly than >"American Domestic Shorthairs." Is this selflessness? Do only show >cats go to Heaven? > >No. Cats go to Heaven. More to the point, they explicitly do *not* go >to Hell. Nor do dogs or horses, whether they're selfless or >"spirited." Or downright mean. We stipulate they have souls (which is >to say Celestial Forces), but do not have the capacity to >conceptualize about their choices. hrm dog do *not* have celestial forces . . . >That's the answer supported by the game evidence, which we're >stipulating is correct. ahhh . . . I see. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:09:17 GMT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. >>Doesn't one of the rule-books (I think its Night Music) have a dog that's >>a >>Soldier of God? That suggests that animals at least have the potential for >>self-awareness (after all, humans evolved from apes). Perhaps most animals >>do not have a concept of self, but some can develop them. > >Oh God, I hope *not.* The idea of a dog using Songs and potentially >attunements frankly bothers me, unless that dog is a Celestial in >disguise. Ooooh, I don't think Jordi likes /you/ . . . Why can't an animal be more selfless than selfish? Or perhaps it's its judgement that you doubt. Hey, if it's got Int of 3, it's got many humans beat. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.