From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Nov 11 17:42:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08887 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:42:27 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA29652 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:42:13 -0600 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:42:13 -0600 Message-Id: <200011112342.RAA29652@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1918 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, November 11 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1918 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 IN> Selfawareness IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 IN> Angel of Anime IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1916 IN> Fun Servitors for Khalid IN> Words, Mark II Re: IN> Celestial political parties Re: IN> Speculation time.. Re: IN> New Heretics.... Re: IN> A Contender for Sloth Re: IN> Speculation time... IN> The Trials of Michael - Freedom, Part II Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 Re: IN> Celestial political parties Re: IN> Words, Mark II Re: IN> New Heretics.... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 IN> What you've all been waiting for... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:50:23 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 >Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:41:21 -0800 >From: "Bevan Thomas" >Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine animals. > >Doesn't one of the rule-books (I think its Night Music) have a dog that's a >Soldier of God? That suggests that animals at least have the potential for >self-awareness (after all, humans evolved from apes). Perhaps most animals >do not have a concept of self, but some can develop them. Yes, rumoured to have been created by Eli. One of the reasons I've never seen any point in treating animals with Forces in all three realms as being different to humans. Also of interest is the hamster in S4. >Oh God, I hope *not.* The idea of a dog using Songs and potentially >attunements frankly bothers me, unless that dog is a Celestial in >disguise. Why? They have to have 6 Forces, the same as any other Soldier, and your average dog only has 2. Besides, Jordi would be taking steps to eliminate anyone trying to recruit his animals into the War, given what mundane warfare has done to horses etc. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I love the smell of burning Hellsworn in the morning. it smells like payback time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:59:43 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Selfawareness >>From long co-habitation with cats, I would say that cats have >very little SELF-awareness. They are quite capable of feeling >pain (DUH), and even sometimes seem to have a _vague_ awareness >that I (or the other cats) are "other than self," but they >don't think of their own natures, near as I can tell. (They >might "punish" me for locking them out, or yell to control me, >but they don't really modify their own behavior out of a desire >to "be nice.") That is because cats aren't 'nice'; not from a lack of self-awareness. What you are describing is recursive thought. Places to start reading about it include The Eternal Golden Braid(Godel/Escher/Bach) and conveniently for roleplayers, The Science of Discworld. Science of Discworld is better written, while the Braid covers what is required for true AI. How much a cat or dog thinks about their nature will vary from individual to individual just like humans; I assume that I'm not the only person to have met humans who show no sign of recursive thought, or any other form of thought! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:11:19 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 > >From: daiv@cruzio.com >Subject: IN> Self Aware Animals > >This is an old argument, on the list and on; Are animals self aware? >In reality... >Since Humans are, by definition, anmials, the answer is yes (with some >specific >exceptions, naturally (insert Father in law joke here)). If you want to >change >the question to Are animals other than humans self aware, then the answer is >maybe some species are (the Great Apes, for a start). This is the only answer >that i have seen that is actually supported by studies, and even then to >get to >certainty, you have to ignore the studies that do not support your pet >(sorry) >theory. [nods] >In IN... Well, there does not appear to be Canon on it, as yet. I suspect >that >the Superior write up of Jordi will add fuel to this argument (by the way, is >he scheduled yet? And with whom will he be included? And when referring to a >Kyriotate, is a singular pronoun appropriate?). I would, however, point out >Superiors 4, Yves Write up, Archangelic opinions, Jordi says something to the >effect of "Animals have destiny. He understands that." Someone who has the >book >can correct the quote. >If they have destinies, then do they have fates? And how do they choose one >path or another, if they do not have the free will to choose? Is there a >section in hell where imps spend eternity hitting the souls of Dogs on the >nose >with rolled up magazines, all the while chanting "Bad Dog! Bad Dog!"? >- -Daiv They haven't been to Hell - yet. Possibly animals do not have Fates yet, so has the choice of fulfilling its' Destiny or not; those who fail to do so have the same options as humans who have achieved neither their Fate or Destiny. >The destiny of a *higher* animal is probably to attain some bit >of spiritual insight and therefore spend a happy eternity in >Jordi's Savannah. I keep thinking of 'The Selfish Gene' with animal Destiny. If every animal has a Destiny to create another form of co-operation with other animals, then you simultaneously get the idea of the world Jordi is working for AND an explanation of animal pain etc - 'tis growing/learning pains for this planet. It's fate would be to fail to attain that >insight, and thus disband, reincarnate, or go to the Marches >at death, but not go to Hell. Fate is to fail to fulfill Destiny? That's a bit harsh. IIRC, in Yves' writeup Fate is described as a possibility that always existed but was not chosen until the Fall. The thought occurs that the demons couldn't get out of Hell until Lilith took a hand. Two-way street, perhaps? Humans can go to Hell because Lilith made it possible when she released the demons? >According to the main book, the >only "animals" in Hell are really human souls that take on the >appearance of animals as they are gradually Force-stripped down >to nothing by Saminga's servitors. Yep. >Free will is an independent question. It's VERY easy for me to >believe that cats, for instance, have free will, but they don't >use it to choose between good and evil. More typically, they >use it to dither in doorways and choose between going out or not. > >Earl [grins] No, the cat is just tormenting you. Given that Free Will is canon doubt and uncertainty, whether animals have it doesn't need to be answered. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:14:43 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Angel of Anime Eep! Wll Done! [sends congratulatory piano over to fall on your head] - --James ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:30:05 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1916 >>>>No. We are saying that animals don't have the capacity for conceptual >>>>reasoning. Which is why no animal has yet competed on Iron Chef. Apart from opposable thumbs and a healthy dislike of fire (thank you Perry), you might want to consider: Not speaking a human language; preferring uncooked food; short lifespan; lack of interest in human activities. (When was the last time you chased a car? The neighbourhood dogsa wouldn't have minded you joining in). That said, animals have been taught or even taught themselves all sorts of skills. The dog who taught herself to ride a skateboard comes to mind. As do the chimps who have been taught sign language - and have invented new words to cover objects which they had not been taught the words for. (The word I remember them dreaming up was 'rock-berry' for 'peanut'. From Michael Walton: > Sounds like the difference of opinion here is the definition of self >awareness. Animals are clearly aware of themselves as individuals -- >they have feelings and motivations, as anyone who has ever owned a dog >or cat can attest. Truly. > What they lack is that level of abstract reasoning >ability that allows humans to come up with stuff like, "I think, >therefore I am." Problem solving IS abstract reasoning. And animals can solve problems. > Animals are, and some of them think, but none of them >think about thinking -- at least as far as we know. How do you know that other humans do? They tell you? Language problem? The way they act? Most animals act more intelligently than humans (although sheep & chooks are obvious exceptions). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:34:36 -0700 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Fun Servitors for Khalid >Casca wrote: >Interesting. Personally, I would have given her to Khalid, since >Exorcism seems to fall naturally underFaith, and Faith is traditionally >at odds with the occult. [tries to look innocent and fails]. The Muslim version of Heaven is the teensiest bit more...worldly...than the Christian version. Does anyone else like the thought of a Bright Lilm of Faith who holds the Word of Houris? Possibly an ex-Servitor of Lust who decided that rewarding the Faithful would be a nice way to spend eternity. - --James ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:28:29 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> Words, Mark II >It occurs to me that, if Heaven ever gets a 'yo-yo' >Pentitent Prince, the last thing they'd want to do is >to give him or her the same Word that they had >before.* I mean, they weren't able to handle it the >first time, right? > >So, any good suggestions for Words, Mark II? > > >Moe > >*Assuming that they even give said Prince a Word: that >may not be realistic, but it's certainly more fun. :) Aleamon - Teaching Andrealphus - Objectivity Asmodeus - Confession Baal - Brotherhood Belial - Water! or maybe Cooking. Perhaps Fireworks? Beleth - Lovers Kobal - Fnord. (Literally. He gets told that he will be assigned the Word of Fulfilling The Task Given To Kobal By God. The Seraphim Council refuses to ask him what that task is.) Malphas - Lonliness. (Consider how much discord he'd get if no one else existed!) Magog - Tears/Crying Mammon - Charity Saminga - Loyalty Valefor - Library Fines (in service to the ArchDean, of course.) Hope these are useful! - --James ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 02:38:34 -0600 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Celestial political parties At 7:15 PM +0000 11/08/00, prodigal@ticnet.com wrote: > Then we have what I like to think of as the Persecuted Party, but that may > just come from playing in a game where the group is made up of Fire, War > and Creation servitors. Awww. . . But you know, deep down, you have to love Dominique. . . "Ophni. . .," says a commanding voice. The malakite sternly stares down the dark robed figure. ". . .I am your mother." Yeah, I know it'll give you nightmares for at least a week. Sleep tight!!! Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur # http://www.thrifty.net/~tafkaj/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:15:47 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Speculation time.. However, Beleth's word did not work out at all. Blandine's word totally dominated her's, and that was used by Lucifer to drive a wedge between the two loves. If Beleth redeemed, she would definetly need a new word. I can't think what it would be, though....<<< I would think Hope would be a good one. :) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:37:36 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> New Heretics.... >A simpler, sadder option is a demon of Fate who knows that he's Fated to be >destroyed attempting redemption...(But what would his Destiny be?) Unfortunately the only Destiny I CAN see for Kronos is self-destruction.<<< It occurs to me that Kronos might have a very bright Destiny. Perhaps he is Destined to switch sides in the final battle, saving Yves from some fatal blow and thus dying an unlikely but beloved hero? Another thought. Kronos maintains the Archives of Hell. Perhaps some great threat comes along, like Belial threatening to torch the Archives, and out of protectiveness for the accumulated knowledge, Kronos slowly Redeems, eventually becoming the new Archangel of Knowledge, or at least a powerful Word-bound of the Archangel of Archives? Or maybe that's just the optimistic Flowerchild in me.... ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:30:31 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> A Contender for Sloth All in all, interesting. I'm reminded of Ralph, DP of Apathy (found on the INC), but only slightly. So, what's this guy's Fate, anyway? :) <<< As Demon Prince of Stasis, Axtar would attempt to force all of Hell into permanent stasis. The attempt would fail naturally, but Kronos would be in the background, subtly providing Axtar with lots of power. Borrowing a page from Malphas, Kronos would further push Axtar towards his Fate by convincing the majority of Hell's Royalty that Axtar is as big a threat as his old boss Legion was, bringing Hell's Princes together to destroy the Prince of Stasis. His ultimate Fate would be as a sacrifice to bind Hell's Princes together in common cause and thus consolidate the power to bring the universe to its' Fate. :) Naturally, of course, Axtar is to be kept in the dark about this. What he doesn't know won't hurt Kronos. :P >>>PS When the (bleep) did I become an example of "how to write up a proper IN character"? Is there a certificate? I want a certificate, darn it... <<< *hands Moe the certificate...straight from the Balseraph of Nitpicking in charge of proper character creation.* Just ignore the half-keg of open beer nearby.... ;) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:20:02 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Speculation time... So, any good suggestions for Words, Mark II?<<< Here's some: Kobal Angel of Joy Mercurian of Children Andrealphus Angel of Relationships Mercurian of Flowers Lucifer Angel of Redemption Seraph of Destiny Somehow, I can't quite see these three as being entrusted with Archangelic privileges anytime soon after their Redemption. I doubt that they'd get their old Words back either, but then again, in Moe's world, anything is possible. :P ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:33:22 -0800 From: James Walker Subject: IN> The Trials of Michael - Freedom, Part II Heaven's war rooms were swarming with activity. Michael watched in amusement as one of the Blessed, who had dies in the Celebes only a few hours ago, tried to avoid staring at the cleavage of the Bright who was carefully questioning him about the current situation. Michael turned to Laurence: "I wasn't aware that you had so many Brights." 'I don't. Those who have been transferred to us for this challenge petitioned me for the right to wear the uniform I approved for Bright Lilim of the Sword.' " The uniform was designed by a Bright?" Michael asked, noting the similarity it bore to the sort of nurse's uniform found in sex shops. 'Yes.' Laurence replied, and drawing himself up proudly continued:' I'm very pleased with the espirit de corps the Brights are showing. They clearly appreciated it when I told them so; they should do well in this operation. I'll have to think of an appropriate reward for the design. When I was shown the first one, I had to insist that the lapels be modified to allow for the appropriate unit and rank insignia; the girls worked very hard to design this uniform and I don't want them to feel unappreciated, or that my comments were caused by a lack of respect for their hard work. Especially as every Bright who has worn the uniform has commented on the freedom of movement it allows - first and foremost, a uniform has to be practical.' Michael could defeat any foe, even his own sense of humour. There was no amusement in his voice at all as spoke: " Excellent. Have you considered taking the chief designer on your date?" Laurence was shocked. ' Of course not. Sully a professional relationship in such a manner? It wouldn't be right. I'll have to think of something else.' Michael had to cover his mouth with his hand. The he replied: "Given the creative nature of what they achieved, Eli might be able to suggest something.." 'Had he not deserted us, I would certainly be asking his advice' Laurence replied in a cold voice. 'Still, you have given me an idea. I will consult Jean; he must continually measure the value of new items so his advice will be invaluable.' Michael was not foolish enough to continue the conversation - all around the war room angels were desperately trying not to laugh. "Are all my angels in position?" 'Yes. Every Archangel has donated at least some of those angels in their service who owe Geases to either Lilith or her creatures. The last took up position nearly an hour ago. We have also observed the entry of over a hundred demons into the region. We estimate that at least four times as many have arrived in the last twelve hours..' "All of whom are decoys, with orders to draw any angels who discover them away from the region. Lilith has had a long time to set this up; I suspect that she had plans for something similar before I announced my challenge. Also, I have learned that she is charging Geases to accept into her service demons who owes geases to angels." 'She is being paid to accept troops?' "Yes. Further, I imagine she was paid by Malphas to place the challenge here. How much leeway do we have? At what point will Indonesia start to unravel?" 'None. If a single battalion of troops is moved to these islands, the Celebes will go up in flames - again. Also, if heavy artillery is used on the islands, it will be audible from Java. Either will dangerously destabilize the civilian government.' Laurence looked anxiously at Michael ' We cannot afford that, especially not now.' "I am aware of this. I am also aware that Lilith will have detected my Need to defeat her.." 'Than I forbid the contest. Military concerns are more important...' "And she will have detected your Need to protect this region. I spoke to Khalid concerning this challenge. As Indonesia is the most populous Islamic nation in the world, I hoped he could provide some guidance. He did, though not in the way I expected. I no longer Need to defeat Lilith. I will do so, because Khalid has asked me to, but she cannot bind me. Let us begin." Recordings of the leaders of the numerous factions on the five islands had been brought to Heaven. Angelic resonance and human familiarity combined to give a complete analysis of their natures and interactions. Michael swiftly mastered the pre-sorted information, and began the conquest of the islands. A coup in a village here, a protest there; over a dozen young men, sons of chiefs, were offered scholarships to be trained as officers in the army, drawing their families into alignment with the government. Others were offered positions in the bureaucracy. Mercenaries were hired as guards, or offered bounties to attack bandits. Other villages were contacted by businesses or charities and offered aid in return for their support for peace. Meanwhile, angels continued to work in the war rooms. Occassionally an an angel would stiffen, listening to the air, before using a Song to inform Lilith of Michaels' current plans. As they did so a Geas faded...but often would be replaced by dissonance. Laurence blinked back his tears as he watched his loyal followers feel the pain of dissonance as they disobeyed his orders. Orders Michael had ordered them to disobey. But he could not retract those orders; to do so would cheapen the cost that Lilith needed to pay to learn their plans, and waste this opportunity to free Heaven of her Geas-web. Turning back to the table, he saw what Michael had known from the start - Lilith was not fighting to win, but instead trying to force Michael to use up the Geases her demons owed Heaven. Often she succeeded, as a plot to start riot or fire proved to difficult to stop by other means. Still, for every demon who lost a Geas two others lost a vessel. Michael was winning...had won, surprisingly easily. Too easily. ********************************************************************** The luxury yacht sailed into Djakarta's harbour. Lilith was tanning herself in a deck chair on the roof when she felt the disturbance of her two visitors. Sitting up, she turned towards Michael, smiling. 'I concede defeat'. And then shock showed on her face. 'But you Needed to win. I saw it!' Michael grinned. "Yes, I did. Foolish of me, to forget what I was fighting for. Foolish to forget that God had forbidden Heaven to interfere with humanity. Foolish to forget that your destruction is not MY responsibility. But I was reminded. So no Geas for you. But you owe me a Bright Lilim - I assume you did get the Forces I sent you?" Lilith stood up. 'Of course I did. Who do you think is sailing this yacht? And you'll want more, once you think about it, and realise that it's worth paying me.' Michael raised an eyebrow. "Of course I will. I want more now - shall we discuss this further?" 'Not yet, I think. You have to get used to this, and I don't think you'll like all of the implications. For starters, she's only yours if she agrees, although that's almost certain, given her personality...' `MICHEAL! SEE, I SURVIVED!' The lilim charged out of the wheelhouse and threw herself at the Archangel of War. Lilith vanished, Michael's axe smashing the deck chair she had been sitting in. And he very gently hugged the new Bright, softly crying. *********************************************************************** `But I AM Khuala!' the young Bright protested to Michael. They were in the Groves; Laurence was with them. Around them were monuments to slain angels. In front of them a monument proclaimed - In memory of Khuala, Lilim of The War who slew three Calabim who barred her path to Redemption. "No." Said Michael. "Khuala was destroyed during the redemption process. Somehow Lilith must have found her Remnant and created you from it." Laurence nodded. 'I had wondered how Lilith intended to avoid being destroyed by the Game for creating a Bright Lilim. It is likely that Asmodeus suggested this plan himself; by recreating a Bright who is known to have been destroyed, he strengthens the lie that demons cannot actually redeem; that the redeemed are actually new angels created using the Forces of the destroyed demon.' The new Bright shivered. `Then, I'm who..or what?' Michael held her softly, with a tenderness Novalis could not have bettered. "You are my child, and I will guide you and train you. You have memories of Hell which tell you to mistrust and fear. Fear Not; I exist to protect all of Creation. Soon you will have real memories - memories of valiant comrades, heroic deeds, proud moments. The memories you deserve." `And the memories I have of Hell?' Michael's voice dropped to a whisper. "That is your choice, for I trust you. I can take them from you, if you wish, destroying them or granting them to another - whichever you prefer. If I do so you will be free of them, and will master angelic existence with ease. Or you can keep them, and use them in the War against Hell. `If you give them to another, can they use them against Hell?' "Yes." `Then please give them to someone wise enough to rescue demons like Khuala. And then you will train me, and I will also help kill those who attempt to prevent people reaching Heaven.' Michael nodded. "You have chosen well." Around the young Bright a soft light swirled. The swirl of light slowly shrank, forming a beautiful pearl. And Michael heard Yves' voice speak: "I name this child Pearl, for she has been bought at great price." *********************************************************************** Michael sat quietly, thinking. Laurence waited, unmoving. Finally Michael spoke. "We must accept Liliths' offer, and pay her to replace destroyed Bright Lilim." Laurence did not reply. "Well?" 'To do so is to play into Hell's hands. To spread the lie that there is no hope of redemption, that to be a demon is to be forever damned.' "It is to late, Laurence. Have you forgotten Mira? Pearl is not unique in being a Bright whom Hell can prove was destroyed. The lie will live on. But how many renegade Lilim actually sought Redemption? Not many. Most Renegades were determined to go their own way. But the Game cannot prove that; for every Renegade Lilim there has ever been we can have a Bright. Lilith knows this; will offer us them all, and enjoy ruining Asmodeus' plan. And as for the lie...those who seek redemption will trust a Seraph to speak the truth." 'Perhaps'. And the two of them sat together, and spoke of the comrades they had lost to the war. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:28:17 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 James Walker wrote: > No! As Earl has pointed out: Earl was drawing a distinction between what you seem to mean by "self-awareness" and by what the rest of us mean. > Remember, a modern car can have the equivalent of a nervous system. No, it has an artificial analog that with some imagination could be considered a "nervous system." > Are you saying that the people the nazis ordered into mass graves/gas > chambers etc were 'selfless'? No, and this is precisely why we draw a distinction between humans and animals. If an animal kills a lot of people (say, a shark or a tiger), we might destroy it because it's dangerous, but we wouldn't consider it "evil" or blame it for maliciously choosing to kill people. If a human does that, however, we say that that person made a conscious choice to do something evil. > Cats are solitary hunters, dogs are pack animals. A cat does at it pleases> because it thinks as an individual No, it does as it pleases to the same extent that a dog does as it pleases. Cats instinctively act as solitary animals, dogs instinctively act as pack animals. > - a cat can still be considerate A cat can show affection; this is not the same thing as making a conscious choice "I want to be nice to this person." > (I was> brought up by a cat) Uh.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:30:28 GMT From: prodigal@ticnet.com Subject: Re: IN> Celestial political parties Tafka J. writes: > > Awww. . . But you know, deep down, you have to love Dominique. . . Especially after reading Superiors 1. ;;;) > Yeah, I know it'll give you nightmares for at least a week. No, but I may be laughing for the same length of time... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:38:30 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Words, Mark II I don't think the words would be the opposites of their current word (like with Beleth being Lovers and Belial water). Most of those seem pretty minor as well (like cooking). I saw the heretic Belial is the archangel of purging. That makes sense. I think Andrealphus could work as love again, and Baal as fortitude. They realize that God is right and their Words are still viable. - ----- Original Message ----- From: James Walker To: Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 7:28 PM Subject: IN> Words, Mark II > > Aleamon - Teaching > Andrealphus - Objectivity > Asmodeus - Confession > Baal - Brotherhood > Belial - Water! or maybe Cooking. Perhaps Fireworks? > Beleth - Lovers > Kobal - Fnord. (Literally. He gets told that he will be assigned the Word > of Fulfilling The Task Given To Kobal By God. The Seraphim Council refuses > to ask him what that task is.) > Malphas - Lonliness. (Consider how much discord he'd get if no one else > existed!) > Magog - Tears/Crying > Mammon - Charity > Saminga - Loyalty > Valefor - Library Fines (in service to the ArchDean, of course.) > > Hope these are useful! > --James > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:42:58 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> New Heretics.... According to Heaven and Hell, Kronus is not in fact a balseraph, but like Yves is not part of a band. It is suggested that he and Yves are aspects of God, Yves being the destinty and Kronus the fate. If that's true, then they are basically the twisted mirror of each other. That would mean that Yves' fate is probably to meld with Kronus, creating a more powerful Prince of Fate (and no archangel of Destiny). Kronus' destintiy is to meld with Yves, creating a more powerul archangel of Destinity, and leaving no Prince of Fate. They become a full being again, as opposed to seperate good and evil sides. > >A simpler, sadder option is a demon of Fate who knows that he's Fated to > be > >destroyed attempting redemption...(But what would his Destiny be?) > > Unfortunately the only Destiny I CAN see for Kronos is > self-destruction.<<< > > /tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:38:26 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1915 At 4:44 PM -0700 11/11/00, James Walker wrote: > >That argument applies equally to humans; any decent psychologist can >explain a humans actions from their background to an equal level. Further >animals have personalities and make decisions; claiming that this is >instinctual is very easy; demonstrating that humans are different is not. The fallacy of claiming this in the middle of a philosophical debate no animal could have is obvious. So is your opinion, and I don't see anything to be gained by continuing to debate it. You clearly believe that animals make choices, have sapiency and have the capacity to know sin. Have fun with it. One note: >A dog imprints on his >>master, and becomes almost slavish to their Master's needs >Have you ever had a dog? It doesn't look like it. Many. Cats too. I currently have a cat who is currently fighting a war with my venetian blinds next to my bed. I don't believe said cat has a philosophy, however. Indeed, I enjoy her cat attitudes without the need to anthropamorphise her. > >A horse will, once broken to harness, keep working until >>death. Are these selfless behaviors? No, they're bred, conditioned > >and trained behaviors. >Are you saying that the people the nazis ordered into mass graves/gas >chambers etc were 'selfless'? How about conscripted armies? Sorry. I admit I didn't say "willingly keep working until death." But these are officially silly. And, in the old tradition of Usenet, with the invocation of Nazis the debate is officially over. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:57:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> What you've all been waiting for... Iolanthe, Impudite Princess of Cute The world is wrapped around my little finger. Iolanthe is one of those rare creatures, an actual child of her mother's Forces. (If there is a "father" donor of Forces, his, her, or its identity is unknown.) The story of her crowning is fairly well-known, though it is of course only a rumor. Any story involving the Lightbringer is a rumor. Especially one that has him discovering the tiny Impudite in a nest of papers (her mother _is_ the Djinn Princess of Nitpicking, after all) and, before he could help himself, going, "Awwww." As Princesses go, Iolanthe is pretty innocuous. She eats, sleeps, needs her diaper changed, plays with her toys, chews on paper (or anything, else, really), and gurgles sweetly at all her willing servants. She also sucks down Essence like a black hole, but who could resist her cuteness and charm enough to begrudge that? Besides, when she's happy, she's got that _smile_... Some say that Christopher, Archangel of Children, has a soft spot for the Princess of Cute, but naturally he doesn't say much about it. (In fact, one of his few comments that was overheard and spread around was to the Archangel of Stone, to the effect that, "No, teething is _not_ 'hitting first.'") All of Iolanthe's Servitors are, well, cute. They're also rarely very nasty, as demons go. In fact, every one of them known to an angel has come off as a redemption candidate to a greater or lesser extent. It seems to be something inherent in the Word. There are two theories about why Lucifer allows this Princess to remain secure. The more popular rumor is that the ranks of Cute can be a haven for "soft" demons and their loyalty to their little Mistress ensures the Host will spend more time and energy trying to redeem them than is tactically sound; Iolanthe's Servitors being, after all, so irresistibly... cute. The other rumor is that even the Lord of Hell is under Iolanthe's spell and can't bring himself to do anything that might make those adorable eyes look shocked and hurt, and that sweet little grin turn into a quivering pout. (Or, her mother has been known to mutter, anything that would make that soft gurgle turn into a whine that rivals the worst noises produced by the torture chambers of the Game and the factories of Tartarus, combined.) Naturally, the safe thing to say is that Iolanthe's promotion to Princess is clearly, _clearly_ intended to bring Christopher down as her own personal Djinn (besides her mommy), and exploit the natural, innocent selfishness of children that, rightfully, ought to land the whole lot of the whelps in the Pit. Dissonance: As far as anyone knows, the only dissonance Servitors of Cute risk is for doing anything that might cause them to get hit with the Princess' own Sad Eyes attunement (see below); other than that, they're safe. Of course, if they're not sure _what_ might provoke Sad Eyes, they prefer to play it safe. Band Attunements Balseraphs: All of Iolanthe's Serpents have huge, shimmery, cute eyes, no matter what their form. They have a _reaction_ (not resonance) bonus equal to their Ethereal Forces whenever they are attempting to convince someone that they are too cute to be mean to. (This can apply to resonance, Emote, Fast-Talk, or any random reaction roll the GM feels like making.) Djinn (restricted): All Djinn of Cute, no matter their shape, have a vague resemblance to stuffed toys from Dakin or TY. Unlike the rest of their Band, they're not really _ugly_ (though of course not mistakable for Cherubim -- a little furry alligator with bat wings is hardly a Cherub). They may attune to any number of things (or people) so long as the things are cute, and the Djinn gives the thing (or person) a unique name (such as "Charlotte," "Francois," etc.). Though they don't take dissonance if the cute thing is destroyed (or teethed on by their Princess), they do tend to _object_ to wanton un-cute-ing of their attuned cutenesses. (Seraphim of Yves _will_ sense the "cute name" of someone or something upon touching the subject, though they may not realize why the subject has two names if they've never encountered the phenomena before.) It is said that all Djinn of Cute are attuned to their Princess, knowing where she is and if her diaper needs changing, but they do not talk about it. Calabim: Little teethers and scruffy kids one and all, Cute Destroyers cause no disturbance for any damage they do within their Roles as adorable little hellions. (They also, one and all, covet the Balseraph of Cute attunement.) Habbalah (partly restricted): With their tattoos of teddy bears and bunny rabbits, and eyes nearly as big and shimmery as an Elohite's, these Punishers are hardly worthy of the name. (Though their "Choirmates" quickly find that Cute Habbalah's ability to whine is nearly as good as their Superior's, and it is therefore not wise to pick on them. Besides, the Habbalah of Cute gang up on bullies.) While they're still obsessed with their own strength, and still believe they're angels, they seem to have forgotten about _punishing_ anyone -- except those who might annoy their Princess, of course. These demons have two powers: they have a bonus (equal to their Celestial Forces) to their resonance when inflicting a variant of Love that results in the subject going "Awwwwwww" at the target and having the Intelligence of tapioca, and when exposed to the Light of Heaven... they don't take _any_ damage for a number of hours equal to their Celestial Forces. They do suffer a -6 penalty to Perception while there, though (or -3 with celestial sunglasses), and, of course, still retain their... distinctive ...celestial forms. (Though theoretically any Habbalite could impose the variant "Love" emotion on a victim, no other Prince's Punishers have been observed to even _try_; they mutter about "too disgusting to think about." The latter ability, to resist the Light of Heaven, is _not_ well known and would cause the Seraphim Council _and_ the Princes of Hell to have major fits if anyone could believe their eyes and report the sighting of a Habbalite in Heaven to them. Worse, from the Council's hypothetical point of view, other Bands may take this portion of the attunement!) Lilim (restricted): These little green Cuties trade off their adorable appearances. They can, with a resonance roll, detect someone's need for cuteness in his life. Then, with a charming grin or big-eyed blink, they satisfy the need and can _immediately_ ask for a return favor of some small kind. This is not a Geas, and will inflict no dissonance or damage on either party, but the subject must make a Will roll to resist doing such an adorable person such a teensy little favor. Shedim (restricted): It's very disturbing to see Cute Shedim. Hell is used to the Shedim of Lust and their "tentacle porn" schtick, but when a Fleshless is peering at you with a cluster of big blue eyes and sucking on a pacifier or blowing little bubbly kisses and wiping surreptitiously at a pert, though runny, nose... Well, most other demons think that's just _wrong_. Shedim of Cute don't need to make their hosts do anything _nasty_ -- they just need the host to do something _cute_ that goes against the host's established behavior. (Naturally, the act of cuteness must be more extreme each day.) They like to start out with a host going "Oogie, oogie, oo!" at babies, run him through several episodes of Barney and Teletubbies, follow up with decorating the house in fluffy stuffed animals, and leave him bouncing around in a full-body costume of Dopey in Disneyland to amuse the kiddies. Impudites (restricted): The Takers of Cute are nearly as envied as their brethren of Technology -- to drain Essence, they need not Charm any target who has already had a positive reaction to the demon. Though they are still at the usual penalties to steal Essence, the subject may _not_ resist! (If the Taker uses his power normally, with a Charm-and-Steal, the victim may resist as usual.) [For GURPS In Nomine players, give the "Cute Essence stealing" roll a -4 penalty, but the target still doesn't get to resist.] Servitor Attunements Sad Eyes: With a Will roll, the owner of this attunement may imbue his gaze with such pathos that any viewer with a lower Will is wracked with guilt for whatever he did that caused the Sad Eyes. The resulting reaction is up to the GM, but is generally favorable to the demon. Happy Grin: The carrot to the Sad Eyes stick, this big smile causes any viewer to feel rewarded and pleased -- which usually results in him doing more of whatever prompted the Happy Grin. (A Will roll is required to resist that impulse.) No roll is required to activate the attunement, but it only lasts as long as the user is actually smiling or laughing. However, it is rumored that any who fail their Will rolls to resist can become addicted to Happy Grins. Distinction: So far, Iolanthe has only given out one level of Distinction... Sleepless Knights: These demons never become fatigued by repetitive work (such as unending singing of the alphabet song), and with a touch, may grant any human the same ability for 24 hours. Humans so honored are also saved from the ravages of lack of sleep. Relations: Iolanthe has no Enemies in Hell. She's just too cute. Those listed as being "Hostile" are really just those who avoid her because they can't stand it when they find themselves waggling their fingers at her and going "peek-a-boo!" Kronos has also forbidden her to enter his Archive until she grows out of the stage of grabbing paper, trying to tear and crumple it, and then drooling all over it till it falls apart. (Asmodeus would _like_ to do the same with _his_ records, but Djinn seem to be very vulnerable to Cute's charm... He finds himself playing games of "peek-a-boo" a lot when Iolanthe's around, much to his disgust.) Saminga doesn't like her because, well, she's a _baby_. That and she didn't like the zombi puppy he gave her, and it's demeaning for an Ultimate Evil like himself to keep going kitchie-koo at her in the hopes she'll smile. (For her own part, Iolanthe likes anyone who is nice to her; i.e., who does what she wants them to, such as give her interesting things to teethe on, play peek-a-boo, or sing the alphabet song.) Allied: Mommy (Nitpicking) (Haagenti, Nybbas, Valefor find themselves acting Allied to Iolanthe much of the time) Associated: Everyone else (and vice versa), except... Neutral: Beleth, Kronos, Saminga (who are all "Hostile" to her), and... Hostile: Fleurity (who can't understand why a few eyedroppers of grape Tylenol, administered by someone else, even, would make her dislike him so, and is therefore considering himself Associated) Rites: * Have someone call you cute, adorable, little schnookums, etc. This Rite may be used three times a day, and Iolanthe will grant additional uses as a reward. Chance of Invocation: 4 Iolanthe is pretty easy to contact -- which sometimes means she winds up bamfing away to see what someone _else_ is calling her for, before she actually does anything in the area she just arrived at. (Not that she does much anyway, except make everyone nearby start wanting to go "Awwww" at her, and give up all their Essence -- but a couple of Servitors of Cute have said it's a real trip to watch an Archangel trying not to waggle his fingers at her.) Invocation Modifiers: - -4: An eyedropper of medicine (yes, that's a _negative_ modifier) +1: A piece of paper, ready to be mangled and ripped and drooled on. +2: A simple baby toy, such as a rattle or teddy bear. +3: A complex baby toy, such as a small toy piano or play-phone. +4: A really complex baby toy, with flashing lights, and high-quality noisemakers, and lots of buttons, knobs, and switches. +5: Phone cords, with or without phone attached. +6: A TV remote, and a TV tuned to the Weather Channel. (No one knows why, but Nybbas is flattered.) (In all cases save the TV (but not the remote), the item used in summoning will almost certainly be taken away with the Princess -- to paraquote Heinline, "Have you ever _tried_ taking candy from a baby?") - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "She's either babbling, or summoning Elder Gods. I'm not sure which." ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1918 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.