From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat May 20 13:14:04 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27904 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 13:14:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA00521 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 2000 13:12:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:12:58 -0500 Message-Id: <200005201812.NAA00521@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1636 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, May 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1636 In this digest: IN> Gabrielle's judgement IN> Age and Words IN> Sharing words and Subtext IN> Some musings on Hell's angels and damned Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) Re: IN> Age and Words (semi-long) Re: IN> Some musings on Hell's angels and damned Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement Re: IN> Age and Words Re: IN> Some musings on Hell's angels and damned Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) Re: IN> Sharing Words IN> RPG.net reviews! Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> Sharing words and Subtext Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> Sharing words and Subtext Re: IN> In Nomine Dice IN> A Loss for Words Re: IN> A Loss for Words Re: IN> A Loss for Words Re: IN> A Loss for Words ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:52:37 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Gabrielle's judgement >Yves actually gave Gabriel the text of the Qu'ran to dictate. The >problem is, the text Mohammad released isn't the same. While I certainly love the answers that have been given here as to the possibilities (Gabrielle I could see if she was instructed by God to change the text she would feel it was a matter of confidence) there are also other questions to be raised if one happens to be keeping up with this like the O.J. trial. 1:) Why exactly would Gabrielle if she wasn't instructed by God change the text? Does this help her word on some level or does she see Yves as having some fault? Wha? Did she just forget? 2:) More importantly in my mind...what exactly is the difference between the text Yves gave and the text that Gabrielle... makes for some interesting background reading and helps the characters decide the difference for themselves I think. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:09:03 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Age and Words >It's not a huge problem, actually. The one born in the 12th Century >has likely been out of the promotion track a bit. I'd be tempted to >make that character a bit skill heavy, even. The one in the 60's is >simple. And the one from the Fall has clearly gone through Celestial >Combat at some point and lost a good number of the Forces he built >up. That makes a lot of sense as the 12th century one is certainly rather ambitious-less even for a Malakim serving Michael (he seems content to kill demons and drink guiness for the most part).. and the one Fall one tends to do battle with the forces of darkness that refuse to repent and he's quite good at it....but not very good at it. >A couple of Celestial Forces being gone is good justification for >why he's lost some Songs and Attunements. A few missing Ethereal >Forces explains his problems with memory. It's not at all a bad >character concept. Thank you...it also fits with his accidentally ending up a married preacher for most of his life. >Were it my game, I'd recommend that those characters be *seeking* the >Word of Wide Eyed Children and Forgetfulness, and have worked very >hard to orient towards them. Then, part of their overall goals can be >receiving those Words, after they've built up a few more Forces and >favor with their Superiors. Well the Wide-Eyed Children girl is fine with it as she's the very young (60s) angel. The Forgetfulness one I was just looking for an excuse as to why he didn't win his word in the meantime as he seems to embody it. I can maybe justify it as he keeps losing his memory as he comes close to it as the Seraph council assigns him some dangerous missons to prove his worth...but I'm not sure that would work. Forgetting to ask the council to give you the word seems rather silly. >This can lead to a few Quests to test >worth and the like, with the Word being awarded after a good deal of >effort and the proof that the characters are worthy of those Words. >Just food for thought. True enough. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:23:02 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Sharing words and Subtext >Through much arduous roleplaying and character development two PC's (Cherub >and his attuned partner)have grown in power and friendship and teamwork. >The other player and I are considering getting a Word. Can two Angels or >and Angel and human share a Word? We we considering a Word like >"Partnership" or "Dynamic Duos" so it would actually make sense to share it. This brings up an interesting question in my mind.... I believe an angel and a demon can share a word (and frequently do) as they stand for the exact opposites of a word's connotations. For instance a demon of flowers might consider herself Novalis's personal rival and seek to turn the femmine princible, flowers, etc into symbols of evil and grow poisons etc etc etc. However I sincerely doubt two angels could share a word otherwise there would not be angelic "word" embodiments but Angelic armies. I.E. All who serve Dominic are Angels of Judgement. Which while true in a way I think raises the pointa bout the necessity of "subtext" with words. For instance let's take Superman the Seraph who embodies the Word "Heroism"...we'll put him as a servitor of Michael to begin with. It's at some point that Superman takes under his wing a Mercurian named Batman (cover identity Bruce Wayne) who after a long time develops the princibles of "Avenging the Innocent" (subtext of heroism in subtext of War). Superman might soon take Green Lantern the Olfalim (he serves Eli too) as a protege to "Protecting the Innocent" These two take on sidekicks in Robin and blah blah....who may take the word "Sidekicks to Avengers" or "Sidekicks to Protectors" And some day Robin may take his own protege...let's call him Stinky the Greesemonkey (Choir unknown) who gets the unlucky word of "Repairers of Sidekick's vehicals" for his unimaginative desire. Thus the Symphony fills up. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:58:33 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Some musings on Hell's angels and damned An interesting though occured to me as I was thinking of the Demon Prince of Lust as I call him...and Valpor the Demon Prince of Dark Humor... Has anyone taken their job over back up in Heaven? This seems to me an honest concern as Humor and Love are some *VERY* freaking important words and Love is arguably the most important one of them all...surpassing Creation in my mind (God is love after all). However it seems to me very out of character to replace something in the Symphony that's been embodied...even if it is twisted. If an angel is killed, is it "you crunch em do we make more" or is it "silent testament to the Fallen?" Also in your opinion/campaign how damned are the damned? Is Lucifer willing to let a few off the proverbial hook in order to supply some soldiers for the war (or is that begging for trouble?) and an escape is the "Brimstone" scenario? Can the Damned like angels be redeemed? (Likely they can be but unlike demons they get less of an oppurtunity). Just some cents. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:35:33 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) - --On Fri, May 19, 2000 6:24 PM -0500 Prodigal wrote: > From: "Elizabeth McCoy" >> >> (I can't figure, entirely, how Christopher justifies his Word -- > > By keeping them alive so that they can have it inflicted on them in > return, perhaps? ;;;) > You're in essence saying that somewhere, there's a demon bound to the Word of Having Children Just Like You Were? Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:51:29 -0700 From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice << From: "David M. Barr" > > Wit that said, i vote in favor of it an IN Dice set. As do I. My preference would be to have two sets, with the Angelic set having the IN cross in place of the 1s, and the Demonic set having the IN cross in place of the 6s. > But > it was 10 dice for $6 (i think). 10d10, bought loose, > would otherwise cost $7.50. In light of that, the dice > (which were not totally hideous) were worth the investment > to me. Especially since they came with their own bag. *g* >> I like this idea, a few things though. (Getting ready for my essence, snicker snicker) - --- Using the cross (a recognized holy symbol) as the demonic six, doesn't jive right with me. People tend to realign symbols in the minds eye, so you'd having demons looking for three holy symbols for being rolled up. Instead, I like the set of 4 dice (two demonic colors, two angelic colors), each with the In Nomine cross for the 1 (it looks like a 1 a little anyway) and some obviously demonic picture for the six instead of the cross. Personally, I'd like the Infernal Tether symbol. Though the meaning isn't quite right, its the most blatantly demonic symbol from the game, with the chain coming out of the fire, and easy to pick up on. Other possibilities include the burning feather or the Calabim symbol (also easy to pick up on as demonic. Spiky fist = evil. Not a hard equation.) If you use the burning feather however, make sure the thing is at a weird angle, since its good be easily misread as a one. Actually, it would be cool to have the burning feather be the one, so people could think they are rolling normal dice till they look closely and see the nifty little burning feather. - --- As for people not liking the four dice set since they can give a second set to their players, think of at this way. Buy three sets, you are actually buying four, or just give them two regular dice so they at least have one nifty die. - --- Please don't use all numeric symbols dice. Stick with the dots, or else the pictures on the dice for ones and sixes loose their magical touch, and are not as easily recognized. That was what the truly neat (tm) thing about the original proposal was that Infernal and Divine interventions were easily recognizable. - --- Neat idea, pertaining to the second point. Sell two items related to In Nomine Dice. 1. Just a plastic bag (done good old stapler and card paper style) with four dice in them (angelic and demonic) 2. The GMs dice bag, a black pull string dice bag with the cross and reversed cross on opposite sides, with 6 dice of each kind in it (hopefully costing no more than 3 or 4 times the amount of the little plastic bag, since you are getting 3 times as much dice and a nifty In Nomine bag for them). On a personal note, I'd pay $10-12 for the dice bag, and about $2-4 for the 4 dice bag. Of course, In Nomine has never really put the Pentagram into its symbology (relying on the reversed cross), though that would make a great demonic symbol. However, having several Wiccan/pagan/Christian/whatever friends, I might not use the dice on that note, so I'm against using the Pentagram anywhere on this (even the dice bag) - --- As for colors, marbled black/white is always good, and metallics for the dots/pictures would make them stand out nicely. However, doing unusual stuff might get expensive, so just black and white dots and pictures would be good (black on white, and reverse, of course). - --- And last but not least, make them look neat! I use Trinity d10s (from White Puppy) just because they looked all cool and techy. Make these babies look truly neat, and people will by them on principle of that, not because of the game (and soon they will be drawn into the game, and we shall have them, HAVE THEM I SAY!! BWAHAHAHAHA!!! ) Well, I've got my point of essence, so I'm going to bed. Take that, Timothy, I hath beat thou once again. Ha! :) = Mathus = = Demon of Rants = = ArchRival of Timothy = ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 06:45:43 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) On Sat, 20 May 2000, Marc Bowden wrote: > You're in essence saying that somewhere, there's a demon bound to the > Word of Having Children Just Like You Were? Thank you for my next character concept. I always liked the idea of going for the Demonic Word of Children - it just seems more natural somehow - but that one probably a bit healthier - Word conflict with a Archangel isn't really a good idea ;) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:21:04 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Age and Words (semi-long) At 5:55 PM -0400 05/18/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > Out of curiousity how old do you allow your players to begin as angels[?] That really depends. For instance, I came up with a 9-Force Seraph of Destiny that had been around since the Fall, and was formerly of the War. (Long story Short: Was going for the word of Pride, wound up getting hacked to bits by a Calabite, and is now working for the word of Humilty. In that _long_ view sort of thinking.) In fact, most of my PC's haven't really had a SET date of creation until my latest campaign. One of them was created as a reliever of Fire around the time Gabriel was dictating the Quran to Muhammad. She fledged around the time of the London fire. > Which brings me to my next question-do you allow players to begin with words? Not normally no. In fact, for a new group of players I'd never allow them to start with a word. . . The _one_ exception thus far has been with that campaign of mine. . . It's a high-powered campaign, with three PC's (really it's two, with me filling in for the third; It's a funky situation that seems to work). A Cherub Vassal of War, an Ofanite Vassal of Fire (the same who fledged above), and a Malakite of Creation IST Novalis -- The Angel of Origami. All three of them are 12 force angels. The Malakite has a Trivial Word (GMG, p. 25). To make things interesting: all three use my semi-home-brewed point system, and are all exactly the same number of base points (250, for the curious; Further details available through private email). What's so odd about this situation is that before now I've never GM'd for either of my players before. Both seem to be handling it quite well, and are actually enjoying the experience! (Either that, or they're evil-vile-nasty Elohim who _dare_ lie to me to keep me happy!) Seriously, I guess it just depends on who you get to play the parts. It helps to run a few sessions first though. I ran a LARP as my _first_ game, and wished I had run a few tabletop sessions first; Then I ran my successful 'Solitaire' F2F campaign (which I _still_ need to finish writing up after almost two years); After that, I became co-ST'd for another In Nomine LARP that had TOO much bang, and not enough characterization; I _tried_ getting an Online game together, and only managed to ever run two (wonderful sessions) with one of the players (who *blush*, admires my descriptions to this day); Then came Falling Stars. . . I've managed to run 6 sessions since I started it in January. Between those sessions I also managed to run Solitaire F2F _again_, but this time with a whole new core group of players. The one piece of wisdom I can impart is thus: Pre-gen your characters. It'll help cohesively keep the group working as a team. (It has _helped_ in regards to my High-powered game; but I think it may have hindered me some when I re-ran Solitaire.) This is especially true of your first time of playing the game. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:39:04 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Some musings on Hell's angels and damned >An interesting though occured to me as I was thinking of the Demon Prince of >Lust as I call him...and Valpor the Demon Prince of >Dark Humor... > >Has anyone taken their job over back up in Heaven? > >This seems to me an honest concern as Humor and Love are some *VERY* >freaking important words and Love is arguably the most important one of them >all...surpassing Creation in my mind (God is love after all). This is covered in Superiors 2. Frex, no one has replaced Andre as Angel of Love... but some of the other Archangels (Eli, Novalis, and someone else) have expanded their Words a little to move into the empty space. >However it >seems to me very out of character to replace something in the Symphony >that's been embodied...even if it is twisted. If an angel is killed, is it >"you crunch em do we make more" or is it "silent testament to the Fallen?" Usually the latter. One problem is that anyone who moves in to take a Prince's former Word is going to instantly become a bigtime target for that Prince. So it would have to be a matter of plugging in an angel who was _already_ very very powerful. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:52:42 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > This is how I know she's an Impudite, though -- she gets me up in > > > the middle of the night, sometimes keeps me up all hours, kicks > > > my hands so I sound like I'm from [insert pariah ISP of your choice], > > > insists on nursing in positions that are least convenient (my wrists > > > are shot; some of her first words are going to be "hand-eze >gloves")... > > > > And in this way, she differs from every other baby in the history of > > babies how? > >The mailing list full of fans, maybe? *g* > ? jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 04:59:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement At 11:52 PM -0400 5/19/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > Good. >>Yves actually gave Gabriel the text of the Qu'ran to dictate. The >>problem is, the text Mohammad released isn't the same. And, as it happens, Gabriel went off and did it while the Council was debating whether it was really a good thing. Ofanim, yeesh. The altered texts were the worse part, though. >1:) Why exactly would Gabrielle if she wasn't instructed by God change the >text? Does this help her word on some level or does she see Yves as having >some fault? Wha? Did she just forget? This is what Dominic would like to know. However, when he started arranging the trial where these questions could be asked, Gabriel stormed out in a huff. >2:) More importantly in my mind...what exactly is the difference between the >text Yves gave and the text that Gabrielle... Those changes, IIRC, are not mentioned in canon -- you can make them up. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 05:04:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Age and Words At 12:09 AM -0400 5/20/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >The Forgetfulness one I was just looking for an excuse as to why he didn't >win his word in the meantime as he seems to embody it. I can maybe justify >it as he keeps losing his memory as he comes close to it as the Seraph >council assigns him some dangerous missons to prove his worth...but I'm not >sure that would work. Forgetting to ask the council to give you the word >seems rather silly. Remember, the Seraphim Council awards Words that will serve Heaven -- not necessarily Words that the character embodies. Being forgetful won't make them inclined to give you a Word; you'd have to prove that you could promote the Word in a way that served Heaven's interests. (That said, I generally would not let PCs start with Word-bound -- at the _least_ for our first campaign! Ewie. However, in one case, I did have a PC be Word-bound. It's a pretty minor Word (though the PC's made some good effects via creative use of it), and more importantly, it's a one-shot where all the PCs started out with amnesia. I totally designed their characters. I can't tell more. The game is still going. (If I can find time. AUgh.)) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 05:14:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Some musings on Hell's angels and damned At 12:58 AM -0400 5/20/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >An interesting though occured to me as I was thinking of the Demon Prince of >Lust I pronounce him AHN-dray-AHL-phus. Real easy. >as I call him...and Valpor the Demon Prince of Dark Humor... Kobal, you mean? (Valefor is Theft. Vephar was the Oceans.) >Has anyone taken their job over back up in Heaven? Not with those Words. For various reasons, trying to use those Words is essentially a death sentence as both get really snitty about any "successors." THis is mostly paraphrased from memory of Superiors 2 where it talks about this exact matter... David has asspects of "brotherly love." Eli has "sexual/family love." Novalis gets "loving kindness." Gabriel shares a bit of passion with Eli, only with more exclamation points. Some of the others hAve other parts that they've taken under their wing, but Love in the all- encompassing Word is not represented. Ditto Laughter, though Kobal was never an Archangel. >If an angel is killed, is it >"you crunch em do we make more" or is it "silent testament to the Fallen?" Depends on the WOrd. IIRC, while the first Angel of Fortitude Fell, there is a second (a Malakite). You have to find a suitable candidate for an "empty" Word, after all. >Also in your opinion/campaign how damned are the damned? Is Lucifer willing >to let a few off the proverbial hook in order to supply some soldiers for >the war (or is that begging for trouble?) and an escape is the "Brimstone" >scenario? IIRC, in canon, there are no "infernal Saints." Once you're in Hell, you're in Hell till Doomsday. (Barring GM rumors about ways to escape.) > Can the Damned like angels be redeemed? (Likely they can be but >unlike demons they get less of an oppurtunity). Check the Corporeal Player's Guide -- it goes into this, IIRC. I believe the answer was that a damned soul can repent -- but this is generally seen as doing No Good. And besides, most damned aren't repenting, they're just very sorry they're in Hell -- which is selfish. I suppose it could be possible that a damned soul repented genuinely upon seeing the Gates of Hell, in which case the Angels of Final Judgment would probably get to do the "pluck out of the crowds and send upstairs" roiutine. But it's unlikely to happen. Ackwigglebaby - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:02:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Baby Woes (Re: In Nomine Dice) At 12:58 AM +0100 5/20/00, Omentide wrote: >>I can't figure, entirely, how Christopher justifies his Word -- >>children are the most selfish little creatures at first (I sure was!) >>and only eventually do they figure out (with help from parents) that >>they're not the only real thing in existance. >> >>Hm. Redemption. Hmmmmmm.) > >In my experience it takes about 21 years for kids to figure out they're not >the only real thing in existence. How long (canonically) does redemption take? Canonically, the process of redemption, culminating in the realignment of Forces into angelic form by an Archangel, takes "as long as it takes." The actual realignment process does not have a stated time -- it's whatever suits the GM's plotline, probably. (I wouldn't make itmore than a week, myself; it's not so plausible that a Superior _could_ spend more than that much time, really. At least in my mind.) Heck, it may vary there, even. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:02:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sharing Words At 8:45 PM -0500 5/19/00, David Rodemaker wrote: >> However, humans don't get Words (with one exception) in canon. The >> exception is Lilith, and she is one of the Great Mysteries Of The >> Universe. [...] if [the Seraphim on the Council] think hard enough >> about it, their heads explode. > >Bah... She's not just human... she's the Third Avatar. Yes, but Yves won't say for sure if she is till she tells him to. Which she won't, because that would mean she'd be Choosing for him. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:18:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> RPG.net reviews! http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_3063.html (Superiors 2) http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_3064.html (Liber Canticorum) Thank you! - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:10:31 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >>> But! But! I _like_ my Chaos Dice! (I use plain numeral dice for my CD, though.) *grin*<< That's nice, dear. Did I mention that Chaos dice seem to automatically disintegrate characters? It's odd how they work as a self-imposed form of Discord... Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:14:29 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >>Of course, In Nomine has never really put the Pentagram into its symbology (relying on the reversed cross), though that would make a great demonic symbol. However, having several Wiccan/pagan/Christian/whatever friends, I might not use the dice on that note, so I'm against using the Pentagram anywhere on this (even the dice bag)<< Erm... The Pentagram doesn't seem to be an IN symbol in any of the books... Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:32:26 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Sharing words and Subtext >I believe an angel and a demon can share a word (and frequently do) as they >stand for the exact opposites of a word's connotations. > >For instance a demon of flowers might consider herself Novalis's personal >rival and seek to turn the femmine princible, flowers, etc into symbols of >evil and grow poisons etc etc etc. (This is a button of mine. Forgive me, as I react to it's being pushed.) The Angel of Half-Full Water Glasses, the Demon of Half-Empty Water Glasses? To be honest... I don't much care for Words being fractured in that way. I don't feel the need for an Angel of Freedoms-I-Want or Lust-In-Appropriate-Context or the Demon of Flowers-acting-Badly or Judgment-Used-To-Oppress. Likewise, I don't like the idea that Nybbas' control over the Media somehow doesn't extend to National Public Radio or the occasional quality studio movie. I think I prefer Words painted in broader strokes than that. I like the idea that Fleurity has domain over both morphine and heroin, as opposed to a hypothetical Angel of Medicine. I like the fact that the Solidarity that David promotes sometimes is turned to darker ends. And it's not just perversity on my part - although I'll admit that's an element of it. One of the key components in my mental construction of the IN universe is that, no matter which side wins, some of the things we find comfortable, familiar or normal will be lost. A world where Heaven wins is a world without Lust, without Gluttony, without Freedom as we know it. (Probably replaced by Duty or Submission, depending on how Dark your world is.) It may be more Heavenly, but it won't be Utopia for those who remember what came before. Of course, a Symphony where Hell wins is without Dreams, Creation and Judgment. It's not as though the sides are balanced. :) ( Someone's probably thinking about words like Fire, Stone, Flowers and Wind. In my ear, those Words ring Celestially as "The Word of the Human Perception of " - and their depiction in the game supports that, I think. Should Flowers fall, roses and tulips will still grow. They'll simply cease to mean anything. To anyone. ) * * * * * Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:44:08 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice "Kiara S. Legner" wrote: > Erm... The Pentagram doesn't seem to be an IN symbol in any of the books... > I suspect the reaction of most demons to a pentagram is "Oh, how cute! The dweeb sorcerer drew a pentagram. I'll bet you think I can't step over that line, don't you....?" The reaction of most angels would be "You're either clueless or stupid or both. Whatever you drew that thing to protect yourself against, you'd better pray you never actually meet one." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:51:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Sharing words and Subtext Jason Schneiderman wrote: > To be honest... I don't much care for Words being fractured in that way. I > don't feel the need for an Angel of Freedoms-I-Want or > Lust-In-Appropriate-Context or the Demon of Flowers-acting-Badly or > Judgment-Used-To-Oppress. Likewise, I don't like the idea that Nybbas' > control over the Media somehow doesn't extend to National Public Radio or > the occasional quality studio movie. Certainly his control extends to those things....but those aren't the things he generally likes to promote. > I think I prefer Words painted in broader strokes than that. I like the > idea that Fleurity has domain over both morphine and heroin, as opposed to > a hypothetical Angel of Medicine. I like the fact that the Solidarity that > David promotes sometimes is turned to darker ends. But the point is that Fleurity doesn't care if morphine or heroin *helps* people. He just wants people to *use* it, regardless of whether or not they need it. Likewise, David doesn't encourage people to unite to do evil things. Yes, sometimes that happens, as a negative side effect (just as someone using drugs might benefit, as what Fleurity would consider a positive "side effect"), but it's not how those celestials interpret or apply their Words. > And it's not just perversity on my part - although I'll admit that's an > element of it. One of the key components in my mental construction of the > IN universe is that, no matter which side wins, some of the things we find > comfortable, familiar or normal will be lost. A world where Heaven wins is > a world without Lust, without Gluttony, without Freedom as we know it. > (Probably replaced by Duty or Submission, depending on how Dark your world > is.) It may be more Heavenly, but it won't be Utopia for those who remember > what came before. That depends entirely on the brightness or darkness of your campaign. In my conception, the disappearance of Andrealphus would not mean people no longer feel sexual attraction for one another or find sex enjoyable. It would mean no longer is a Demon Prince actively encouraging people to view each other as objects and sex as the only worthwhile end. Likewise, the disappearance of Lilith would not mean that no longer is there any Freedom. It would mean no longer is a Demon Princess encouraging the selfish abandonment of responsibility and duty, and trying to tear down all restrictions on one's actions for the greater good. > ( Someone's probably thinking about words like Fire, Stone, Flowers and > Wind. In my ear, those Words ring Celestially as "The Word of the Human > Perception of " - and their depiction in the game supports that, I > think. Should Flowers fall, roses and tulips will still grow. They'll > simply cease to mean anything. To anyone. ) That isn't exactly how it works. Celestial Words reflect human perceptions, yes -- but human perceptions don't reflect celestial Words directly. If Novalis Fell, it wouldn't mean that humans would suddenly stop perceiving flowers as symbols of peace and beauty. But Novalis would no longer be promoting that image. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:46:05 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >>I suspect the reaction of most demons to a pentagram is "Oh, how cute! The dweeb sorcerer drew a pentagram. I'll bet you think I can't step over that line, don't you....?"<< >>The reaction of most angels would be "You're either clueless or stupid or both. Whatever you drew that thing to protect yourself against, you'd better pray you never actually meet one."<< ROFL! David, I think this just became canon in my campaign... Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:06:11 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: IN> A Loss for Words >> I don't like the idea that Nybbas' >> control over the Media somehow doesn't extend to National Public Radio or >> the occasional quality studio movie. > >Certainly his control extends to those things....but those aren't the >things he generally likes to promote. Difference of opinion. Superiors promote the things that promote their Words, as their Words are their means of swaying people towards their side of the War. (If you only have a television, everyone looks like a viewer.) If Nybbas could get people to turn their attention towards the Media with nationwide telethons and hard-hitting documentaries, he would. Market studies indicate otherwise, however. :) >That depends entirely on the brightness or darkness of your campaign. In >my conception, the disappearance of Andrealphus would not mean people no >longer feel sexual attraction for one another or find sex enjoyable. Agreed on that. But see below... >It >would mean no longer is a Demon Prince actively encouraging people to >view each other as objects and sex as the only worthwhile end. And, if that were to happen, then what? My view - and I'm beginning to suspect that here is where it differs from yours - is that a Word deprived of the active support of a Superior begins to wither and die. If Andrealphus fell, the idea of Lust would begin to fade - and so would its trappings. Adult movies, heated pick-ups in party cloakrooms, maybe even masturbation. Sex as an end in and of itself - as opposed to the desire to procreate or show spousal affection - would vanish from the popular consciousness. Without Haagenti, the idea that you'd want 31 flavors of ice cream or dozens of thick rich sauces would begin to seem daft. People would eat more simply. Without Lilith, revolution would be unthinkable. >That isn't exactly how it works. Celestial Words reflect human >perceptions, yes -- but human perceptions don't reflect celestial Words >directly. If Novalis Fell, it wouldn't mean that humans would suddenly >stop perceiving flowers as symbols of peace and beauty. But Novalis >would no longer be promoting that image. Again, I ask... and what would that mean? I'm getting the following impression: Superiors are their Words... but Words are not their Superiors? Am I following you? Jason * * * * * Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:33:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A Loss for Words Jason Schneiderman wrote: > Difference of opinion. Sure, but I'm talking about canon. > And, if that were to happen, then what? Then people are still quite capable of doing rotten things on their own. They just wouldn't have so much diabolical encouragement. > My view - and I'm beginning to suspect that here is where it differs from > yours - is that a Word deprived of the active support of a Superior begins > to wither and die. Some have suggested this as an interesing alternative setting. It's not how things work in the official setting, though. > I'm getting the following impression: Superiors are their Words... but > Words are not their Superiors? Am I following you? That's correct. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:54:58 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> A Loss for Words >Jason Schneiderman wrote: >> Difference of opinion. > >Sure, but I'm talking about canon. True. I'm trying to understand exactly where my views have diverged from the canon, and (possibly) why. Thank you, by the way, for your help in that. >> And, if that were to happen, then what? > >Then people are still quite capable of doing rotten things on their own. >They just wouldn't have so much diabolical encouragement. Would you indulge me in a thought experiment? Consider this: A Superior dies. Let's use Haagenti - he probably won't mind. There is no Demon Prince of Gluttony any more. The word is not assigned for forty years. (Forty years is two generations, and a good biblical number) In your mind, how is humanity different? What changes does the lack of a Superior wreak on society? If the answer is "not at all" or "not very much"... then having a Word starts to feel to me like betting on the horses. Your fortunes can rise and fall based on its performance... but the horse doesn't much care what happens to *you*. It runs on its own. >Some have suggested this as an interesing alternative setting. It's not >how things work in the official setting, though. Any insight you can share as to why this choice was made? Jason * * * * * Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:09:57 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A Loss for Words Jason Schneiderman wrote: > Consider this: A Superior dies. Let's use Haagenti - he probably won't > mind. There is no Demon Prince of Gluttony any more. The word is not > assigned for forty years. (Forty years is two generations, and a good > biblical number) > > In your mind, how is humanity different? What changes does the lack of a> Superior wreak on society? That depends a great deal on the Superior, and how influential you decide celestials are in your campaign. It might be that humanity wouldn't be different at all (this would be the more cynical viewpoint, among angels and demons). My opinion is that *personal* gluttony wouldn't be affected much at all -- you'd still have plenty of people stuffing their faces and selfishly indulging themselves to excess. But *institutional* gluttony would be reduced -- you wouldn't have Haagenti's demons getting every restaurant to offer "super-sizers" and "Big Gulps," building fast-food joints on every street corner, and sending credit cards to every schmuck they can find. Humans would no doubt do some of those things by themselves, but Haagenti's demons circulate among the population and encourage this kind of thing, making it more prevailant. > Any insight you can share as to why this choice was made? If the presence of a concept on Earth depends on the celestial who holds it, it would make humanity mostly irrelevant -- we're gluttonous only so long as there's a Demon of Gluttony, we're polite only so long as there's an Angel of Politeness. Humans wouldn't influence Words, Words would influence humans, and In Nomine would be much like the World of Darkness, where everything is controlled by supernatural powers and nothing really happens as a result of mortal initiative. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1636 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.