From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 26 14:25:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA31125 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:25:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA03902 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 May 2000 14:23:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:23:31 -0500 Message-Id: <200005261923.OAA03902@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1644 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1644 In this digest: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) Re: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) Re: IN> Age and Words (semi-long) Re: IN> Forces Re: IN> Yawhew the Celestial/Etheral Re: IN> Minor Superior opinions Re: IN> Yawhew the Celestial/Etheral Re: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) Re: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) IN> Jack Chick In Nomine IN> Six ideas for Yahweh IN> Re: Celestial physics expertize required... IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks IN> angels of places Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks Re: IN> angels of places Re: IN> Re: Celestial physics expertize required... Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks IN> Mythic creatures and Angels Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks Re: IN> Forces IN> LRP in England + Hot Fresh Art ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:46:48 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) > She contacts David and blows up LA (watch the movie > "Volcano" to get an image of what happens, but with no > happy ending for the city). this just brings a question to my mind: could servitors of David travel through lava the way they travel through soil, stone, metal, etc? I mean, do you consider lava as a mineral? actually, I have another question which has nothing to do with this story: if a Kyriotate of Jean possesses... hem... say, the clothes of another angel (or demon). And the latter decides to go celestial. What happens to the clothes? Do they automatically go celestial with the wearer the way they would normally do, or does the Kyrio have to go celestial too? If he is "pulled" into celestial form, will he be visible, or will he be masked as a part of the angel/demon who's going celestial? I realize how twisted the question is, but my Kyrio-of-Lightening player is about to enter a demonic Tether in the next session, and I'm pretty sure he'll ask me that... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 03:14:55 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) > >this just brings a question to my mind: could servitors of David travel >through >lava the way they travel through soil, stone, metal, etc? I mean, do you >consider lava as a mineral? I don't see why not, but since they're not immune to fire, they'd get horribly burned. > >actually, I have another question which has nothing to do with this story: >if a >Kyriotate of Jean possesses... hem... say, the clothes of another angel (or >demon). And the latter decides to go celestial. What happens to the >clothes? I would say that as soon as the 'host' ceases to be corporeal, the Kyrio is ejected -- just as if a human host was killed. This is also why Kyrios can't just possess loads of demons, go celestial, and storm hell as infiltrators. Their hosts must stay corporeal -- they possess corporeal vessels/ bodies/ physical objects on Earth. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:31:56 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Age and Words (semi-long) - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > On Mon, 22 May 2000 10:59:04 -0400 John Karakash wrote: > >> At 5:55 PM -0400 05/18/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > > > >> Out of curiousity how old do you allow your players to begin as > > >> angels[?] > > > > I don't mind if players start out very old, as long > > as they have a good reason why they aren't super-tough or > > one of the 'movers and shakers' of the IN universe. > > > > I'm currently playing a character who was born before the Fall > > but was in Trauma for a long, LONG time. =) Plus Malakim > > occasionally end up losing Forces. Occupational hazard. > > aren't Malakim immune to Trauma? or is that a different > character from the one who's since lost Forces (from the way i read > your post, it doesn't sound like it). is this a home-brew thing > about Malakim vulnerability to Trauma like everyone else? IMC, Trauma resistance was something that any angel who lost enough vessels could learn. Malakim were just assumed to have been through enough battles that they had it for free -- though if a player wanted to play a brand new Malak they didn't have to take it. For non Malakim, it was a 3 character point advantage at character creation. (After character creation you had to lose a lot of vessels in play, and then spend the 3 points.) So a battle-scarred Seraph of Gabriel could pay 3 points and she could be a relentles pursuer of the cruel. Note that Michael didn't have trauma resistance, because he had never been defeated. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:41:50 -0500 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> Forces This makes an amusing sense, but instead of making just Michael disgustingly powerful, why not assume this... All AAs and DPs have a way of acquiring forces directly from their Word. It's part of what makes them Superiors. Michael and Baal are just the ones whose words are directly oriented towards killing their foes, so that's their "secret method". Gabriel and Belilal probably have some way of burning something for forces, Beleth can force-strip-mine your dreamscapes, etc. Everyone would still be dependant on the normal methods (whatever those are) for acquiring forces in the quantity they need, but they also have a special way around the system to get extras. Especially useful when you consider that most other superiors probably have a way of finding out how many forces you've acquired through normal channels recently. (Does Novalis have servitors that Laurence doesn't know about?) This could also be a good rite of passage for new superiors like Furfur. He hasn't been around long enough to figure out a way to get forces directly from Hardcore, so he's not as much of a threat to the other DPs. But he's working on it... Savage Wombat - je suis n'cest un sig line - ----- Original Message ----- From: -=|horsefly|=- To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 6:48 PM Subject: Re: IN> IN Dice - reroll! > hmm, good question. that brings up something i've been itching to write up something abou the Old Warhorse that's going to be heavily abbreviated here since i haven't yet worked through ALL the details yet. IMC, Michael is also referred to as The Destroyer of the Infernal Hoarde (which often gets shortened to The Destroyer, and inevitably confuses demons, who think someone is talking about a revered Calabite--nothing could be further from the Truth). > in essence, Michael gains not only Essence for demons he kills, not only those his Servitors kill, not only those the entire Host of Heaven kills (AND all of Heaven's soldiers!), but he also gains *Forces* from every demon who is soul-killed but not directly and immediately harnessed by another Superior. as an example, a Malakite of Fire kills a demon with fire and picks up a point of Essense, but that demon, when it wakes from Trauma, will find itself entirely empty of Essence--any that it had when the Malakite killed it have gone to the Archangel of War. second example: a 10-Force demon in celestial combat is destroyed; these ten Forces ascend to the Groves, are purified by the Light of Heaven, and come into Michael's personal possession, added to the Archangel himself. third and final example: a demon displeases its Prince so severely that the Demon Prince Force-Strips its Servitor to destruction. in this controlled fashion, the Forces stay within the perview of the Demon Prince in question. > i find this makes Michael immensely, appropriately powerful, as well as terrifying to demons, what with the rumors that circulate Hades (Baal has been known to publicly and immediately Force-Strip any of his Servitors referring to Michael as The Destroyer or contemplating the metaphysics of how the Archangel of War pulls off this trick. Vapula wonders himself quietly and out of earshot of Hell's Commander in Chief). > so to answer your question, Laurence may not be annoyed about the credit of a kill among the general consensus of humanity, but the loss of Essense irks him a tad . of course, what in the Lord's Name do you say to the Firstborn about that...? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:00:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yawhew the Celestial/Etheral At 5:48 PM -0400 5/24/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>Depends very much on the flavour of the particular campaign. After all, >>it's possible the Ethereals are not 'lying' when they say God is an >>ethereal but that they actually believe this to be true. Similarly, >>Celestials are not 'lying' when they say God is not (and never was) an >>ethereal but are stating their own firmly held belief on the matter. > >Yes which no doubt righteously cheesed off every Seraphim they happened to >talk to. Nah -- what cheeses off the Seraphim is when they get a 5 or 6 CD and the result comes back, "Answer Ineffable, plese hang up and try again after Armegeddon." They're used to getting things like, "The Truth is not available for opinions; these are the few objective facts your search gleaned." Heck, that can happen even in Heaven. (It's undoubtedly written into the very words spoke, when something is opinion. Or, as I oncew had a character in Heaven say OOC (while guest NPCing), "He uses the 'strong opinion' mode [about his future actions], since the 'future precognitive' mode is really only available to YVes.") >>Certainly celestials are stating a belief, not a fact, in canon. >>I was assuming the older ethereals really did remember back >>far enough to know whether God was once Yahweh >>(the ethereal) or not. Even if they do remember back to Yahweh, they may not _remember_, if you catch my drift. If they have this conviction that THEY are real, and Yahweh is no more real than they are, they would be quite likely to rationalize this... (Remember, the creation of an ethereal is a bit of a murky process -- if one comes into being with a collection of memories...) (Or, to quote a particularly repugnant-to-me test question my mother once had... "Can you prove that the entire universe, as is, was not created 3 minutes ago?") (The answer, BTW, is "no." It's that "as is" clause.) [As others have probably said, the notion of a "divine ethereal" is almost certainly contrary to canon (as set in the GMG) -- though it's also probably one of the most fun cans of worms for a GM to play with, by letting it happen and watching PC angels deal with the "Ethereal Angels."] >Atheists go here directly as they frankly were such smarty pants in life >they get the most jossing from everyone. [Beth, not having read all the other messages here, predicts that many of them are a thread about the different kinds of atheists.] >I wonder if destroyed Valkyries can find themselves work as waitressses? Well, not if they're _destroyed_! I mean, you soul-kill omething, and it should be _gone_. Unless yuou really really want to mess with your players' heads, of coure, and say that "soul killing" someone just sends them to this place. (There is a theory, proposed by R.Sean Borgstrom (in character as Hitherby), IIRC, that soul-killed beings will be ressurected after Armegeddon if they were worthy. This actually makes sense, if you assume that God can pluck the "template" for the being out of the Symphony whenever It wishes to do so, and re-weave the Forces. I highly approve of that theory, and may yet find a place for it as a _belief_ of some angels. (Who may even believe that certain demons will be saved that way -- either because they were redemption candidates, or ressurected before their Falls.)) >Well actually I think Yves would explain everything as once being part of >Heaven wouldn't he? Not in canon -- I don't think the corporeal realm is explained at _all_, actually, but it's certainly not explainted as part of Heaven. (Of course, I suspect the canon of the creation of the corporeal realm is one of the most-often junked aspects of games, and is definitely on the chopping block if you're running a By The Books campaign.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:17:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Minor Superior opinions At 12:51 AM -0400 5/25/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >On Wed, 24 May 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > >> http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Minor-opinions.html > >Thank you, David... these are very useful. I wish SJG would acknowledge >the minor superiors more; they're definitely of use in any campaign. *sigh* And for every "I wish they were uesed more," there's at least one "Gah, another one? Ugh, don't do these! I never use them, they're a waste of space!" So go, ye, and be thankful that they're being done at all in the Superiors books. O:p That said, let me see about getting those files linked, or ported over wholesale, to the web-page for S3 &/or S4 (depending on relevancy). (With permission, yea, verily -- and input from authors for the mionrs.) wiuggtlebaby! - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:07:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yawhew the Celestial/Etheral At 6:35 PM -0400 5/24/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 17:48 -0400 5/24/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>An interestingly little point there that was brought up by a friend there is >>what if there actually was a Yawhew Ethereal? However the religeon was >>rather "usurped" by Michael and the rest of the gang. I know this frankly >>reeks of Gnosticism but it's something to comtemplate. It might be amusing >>to find Ethereals working on Earth who believe themselves to be angels >>working for Yahwhew. > >I think the canon on this is that the early Jewish religion was actually >inspired by celestials. (Assuming God is *not* an ethereal; if he is, he >has to have backwritten history somehow in everyone's memory so that this >is believed to be true.) Heck, he probably created all his Archangels with that memory. No wonder such memories get fuzzy the further you go back. It's not just that they'e _forgetting_, but that the memories are... false. This is probably what the ethereals claim is the case -- since most humans don't remember that far back either. (Funny, no neanderthals in Heaven...) _They_ of course remember the truth! >So if you follow canon, and assume that God is what He is claimed to be, >then I believe the canon answer is that Yahweh the ethereal couldn't form, >since the human belief in him would have focused on the celestials, instead. Right. And presumably if he _is_ a hopped-up ethereal, he's been eating any other Yahwehs to appear. At 6:00 PM -0500 5/24/00, David Edelstein wrote: >You have to bend over backwards with absurd rationalizations to fit In >Nomine around the premise that God is just a hopped-up ethereal. Not really -- it all depends on how much you care to hop him up. I mean, if he's got the power for Divine Interventions, he's got the power, and the _how_ of it (finding a secret power source/being God) is really just icing on the cake. Day to day life, does it really matter in a game? (Well, until someone else gets close to finding The Secret Power Source, of course.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:07:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) At 9:46 AM +0100 5/26/00, Laurent wrote: >actually, I have another question which has nothing to do with this story: if a >Kyriotate of Jean possesses... hem... say, the clothes of another angel (or >demon). And the latter decides to go celestial. What happens to the clothes? Twisted, twisted... Um, from a GM (and not LE) opinion, I'd probably have the Kyriotate make a Will roll if he wanted to keep the clothes corporeal, and himself in them. Otherwise, he'd be ousted in celestial form. >I realize how twisted the question is, but my Kyrio-of-Lightening player is >about to enter a demonic Tether in the next session, and I'm pretty sure he'll >ask me that... If it's a Vapulan Tether, be sure to have an Impudite of Vapula around, and/or lots of Force Catchers. That might get rid of the problem entirely. O:> - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:03:00 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Celestial physics expertize required... (was Re: IN> Losing Superiors) At 4:46 -0400 5/26/00, Laurent wrote: >this just brings a question to my mind: could servitors of David travel through >lava the way they travel through soil, stone, metal, etc? I mean, do you >consider lava as a mineral? I'd probably allow it, but as Jo pointed out, there's a problem with the high temperatures. On a related note, human science generally considers ice a mineral, but I wouldn't allow a Stone Servitor to use this trick on ice. (And that would also lead to being able to use it on liquid water, by the same reasoning that suggests that lava should be OK. Banning ice fixes that problem.) >actually, I have another question which has nothing to do with this story: if a >Kyriotate of Jean possesses... hem... say, the clothes of another angel (or >demon). And the latter decides to go celestial. What happens to the clothes? Do >they automatically go celestial with the wearer the way they would normally do, >or does the Kyrio have to go celestial too? If he is "pulled" into celestial >form, will he be visible, or will he be masked as a part of the angel/demon >who's going celestial? I'd rule that Kyrios possessing anything that goes celestial (or vanishes when the wearer does) are summarily dumped out in the corporeal realm. If it's the Kyrio's only host, they're now celestial, but as themselves, not "masked" in any way, otherwise, they simply lose the host as though they'd released it. >I realize how twisted the question is, but my Kyrio-of-Lightening player is >about to enter a demonic Tether in the next session, and I'm pretty sure he'll >ask me that... Kyrios of Lightning are *serious* trouble -- I've got one in one of my games. Big pain in the Forces, it is.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:28:07 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jack Chick In Nomine ....is now on my website. (Yes, your campaign NEEDS this!) http://amadan.org/Innomine/INresources.html I'm still working on In Nomine/Nobilis. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:28:17 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: IN> Six ideas for Yahweh Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Not really -- it all depends on how much you care to hop him up. I > mean, if he's got the power for Divine Interventions, he's got the > power, and the _how_ of it (finding a secret power source/being God) > is really just icing on the cake. Day to day life, does it really > matter in a game? (Well, until someone else gets close to finding > The Secret Power Source, of course.) Heh. An amusing thought here... Let's consider what _could have_ been the power source that catapulted JAEG (just another ethereal god) into the heights that He now occupies? [Assume that pre-history memory fiddling or whatever has been done so that the result looks like the canonical IN universe.] 1) There _is_ an almighty Creator . . . but it's not Yahweh. Y'see, he found the Creator sleeping and has managed to trap it/tap into its powers. Fun storyline: what if the Creator begins to wake up? 2) Until Yahweh came onto the scene, _all_ souls either reincarnated or dissipated on death. He figured out a way to trap them in a giant soul-machine to maintain his power. Variation: What if Lucifer is still working for Yahweh, but keeps his machine of 'evil' souls separate to stop the machine from shorting out? 3) Many Yahwehs, across many multiverses (of which the canonical In Nomine is but one) managed to combine themselves somehow into the first truly singular deity? This multi-universal aspect allowed him to create the celestial realm (which is really just another universe brought into conjunction with the corporeal/ethereal). The Upper Heavens is where the central Godhood rests and is the juncture between universes. 4) Yahweh and Lucifer realized (which one came up with the idea greatly changes the flavor here) a way to set up a bipolar system of domains. The energy flow from the conflict would be magnitudes greater than the 'low level' stuff produced by normal ethereal squabbling. By working together to fine-tune their 'fight', they both became insanely powerful... enough to set up two new realms. Fun idea: What if Yahweh has been having second thought? How about Lucifer? What if the antagonistic pairings between AAs and DPs was _encouraged_? (Especially the one between Gabriel/Belial.) 5) ALL ethereal gods used to be as powerful as Yahweh, each in their own universe, but for some reason (lack of worshippers? grand conjunction? trickery by Yahweh?) were forced into one and lost most of their powers. What if major ethereal being suddenly became as powerful as a Superior... or even more so? [Spoilers for Kult... if you haven't read the game and are planning to play in it, don't read idea #6. One of the great things about Kult is that a typical campaign is supposed to change the way you view the world... something that can only be done once. If you don't ever intend to play, do yourself a BIG favor and buy it. I love IN, but, bar none, Kult has the grandest and most provocative themes I've every seen in an RPG. Better yet, buy it for your favorite GM and make THEM run it, so they can surprise you with how fun it is.] 6) To steal an idea from Kult, what if all HUMANS are as powerful as Yahweh... but have been tricked into forgetting it? Human belief is powerful enough to create ethereal beings... isn't that an indicator that there is a lot more untapped potential? - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:49:53 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> Re: Celestial physics expertize required... Walter wrote: >> I mean, do you consider lava as a mineral? > I'd probably allow it, but as Jo pointed out, there's a problem with > the high temperatures. Of course!! > I wouldn't allow a Stone Servitor to use this trick on ice. > And that would also lead to being able to use it on liquid water so basically, "any mineral" as it says in the main book (IIRC) is in fact limitted to soil, stone and metal. right? And at normal temperatures. > I'd rule that Kyrios possessing anything that goes celestial > are summarily dumped out in the corporeal realm. Okay, everybody seems to agree on this, and it sounds fair to me. > Kyrios of Lightning are *serious* trouble Actually, I like them. Even as a GM. As long as I have to deal with one only... All you really have to do is anticipate on the player's ideas and be more twisted than him/her. And I am SO twisted... Beth wrote: > If it's a Vapulan Tether, be sure to have an Impudite of Vapula around, > and/or lots of Force Catchers. That might get rid of the problem entirely. hem... Impudites of Vapula... ... twice the essence capacity, charm their victims and suck essence... Can't remember if they have the Force measurement glasses... ... Oh, I give up!! What's the story with them??? It IS a Vapulan Tether (surprise, heh?), so now you have to tell me everything. Actually, I DO want the Kyrio to get there. In fact, I'd even like him (and his team mate) to ascend to Hell and retrieve an artifact (not quite sure about that, it seems pretty risky). At this point, I can as well ask you guys for advice: I need a Vapulan Tether in Washington. The two angels have to get there and steal an important artifact (no real constraint on the size of the artifact). I don't have any maps yet, but I'll have to draw them soon... So any ideas are welcome (where, security mesures, number of foes, etc). The two players have 9 and 10 forces angels IST Jean. Jesus! For some silly reason, it seems I just CAN'T write a short email... sincere apologies. Laurent, Demon of Annoying Questions, Captain of Bad Spelling. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:44:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen M Gingell Subject: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks Not that any sane Seraph would ever say this but what happens if a Seraph says... "This statement will immediately cause me dissonance." ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:03:21 -0400 From: andersonb@mindspring.com Subject: IN> angels of places Several literary works including the Bible refer to angels of various cities and places. For example, the Bible refers to the demon prince of Egypt in the book of Daniel. What I am trying to get up and running in my game is a system for such a geographic organization. I will treat it in a way like with tethers. The celestials word is the place or area. Of course this would allow the celestial to later expand his word (from Atlanta to Georgia for example) but it might also limit then if the area becomes deserted. What do you guys think? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:05:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks Stephen M Gingell wrote: > Not that any sane Seraph would ever say this but what happens if > a Seraph says... > > "This statement will immediately cause me dissonance." > > ;) Yeah, but a BALseraph might say it; they're not all that sane. Hm. If it didn't cause them dissonance, it would be false, and so cause them dissonance. If it did cause them dissonance, it would appear that it would be true and so would not cause them dissonance. However, I think they'd still get dissonance from it, just not because of the statement's truth-value. There are many ways of getting dissonance, after all; they may have simply discovered a new one. (Unless it was discovered by some seraph or balseraph hanging around Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle, or, at the very latest, Bertrand Russell.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:19:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> angels of places I think it was the Prince of Persia, not Egypt, in Daniel, and he isn't clearly identified as a demon. Thomas Aquinas even supposed that it was Persia's angelic advocate in the courts of Heaven. The angels of nations are a standard part of Judeo-Christian angelology, thanks in large part to the passge in Daniel. (Michael is the patron of Israel, according to the same passage.) They are called "Principalities" in English. There are traditionally 72 of them, which would imply they divide the world along "national" lines that do not coincide with our ideas of nations. I've written two different postings on Principalities for the list: www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/Settings/Principalities.bound.html and the following: - ------ The most widely-accepted angelology of the Middle Ages was that of Pseudo-Dionysius, which had nine choirs in three triads: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones Dominations, Virtues, Powers Principalities, Archangels, Angels IN uses eight of these nine, changing "angel" as a choir to "Mercurian," using "archangel" for the Superiors, and using alternate names for some of the others. But "Principalities" just got dropped. These are the guardian angels of peoples and nations. It would be easy enough to re-introduce them. The Principalities are a group of powerful, Worded Cherubim. Each is either a Cherub of Destiny in service to Protection or a Cherub of Protection in service to Destiny. The two kinds are about equal in number. The Word of each Principality is the nation or people it protects. They are something like the senechals of Tethers, on a grand scale. According to Davidson's Dictionary, there are 70 nations or peoples on Earth, for celestial purposes. According to other quaint books I've read, there are 72. More of the diffence anon. In any case, there are over 200 nation-states in the modern world, and far more ethnic groups. But the Principalities divide up the world differently. They don't ignore national, ethnic, and linguistic divisions, but they don't follow them slavishly, either. In fact, they divvy humanity up at their own convenience, to balance the work-load and re-group populations along lines of efficient administration. Thus, in the late 19th century, the British Empire would have been too large for one Principality; now, China is too large. And, as the world population has grown, the Principalities have acquired more servitors to help them. Principalities, even more than most Cherubim, have to juggle lots of conflicting goals. First, they're supposed to guide and protect their people, but in what sense? They have to balance spiritual gains against material gains. No doubt, spiritual gains should come first, but if your people are losing wars, or afflicted with poverty or tyranny, they are subject to all manner of temptations to wrath and despair, and, in the extreem case, their existence is imperiled. On the other hand, there are plenty of temptations to evil offered by prosperity and victory, especially if these involve conquest. Which brings up another juggling act. One nation's gain is often another's loss. Non-zero-sum games are great, but you can't always find them. They are easier to find on the plane of spiritual benefits, but even there, if party A is to learn pity or fortitude, there has to be a party B who is hurting or oppressing. Between these conflicts and fairly frequent re-shuffling of jurisdictions, Principalities do a LOT of business with each other. They are also called on, by Yves, to move their peoples toward certain events. Under Yves's direction, they are Heaven's instrument for controlling political history. They don't have an easy time of it. Besides the general opposition of Hell, they have their fallen counterparts, the Tyrannies, mostly Djinn, some of them former Principalities. And why is the number sometimes given as 70 and at other times as 72? Because two of the Principalities aren't typical. One is Michael, who, besides being an Archangel, is the Principality of Israel. This certainly includes the Jews; Christians claim it includes them, too, but this can be left in Canonical Uncertainty. The 72nd is the Principality of the Dispossessed. It watches over various classes of refugees, fugitives, homeless, stateless, and alienated peoples. Principalities or their servitors would be encountered when celestial activities intersect great issues of cultural, political, or military importance. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:23:49 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Celestial physics expertize required... At 11:49 -0400 5/26/00, Laurent wrote: >> I wouldn't allow a Stone Servitor to use this trick on ice. >> And that would also lead to being able to use it on liquid water > >so basically, "any mineral" as it says in the main book (IIRC) is in fact >limitted to soil, stone and metal. right? And at normal temperatures. I'd limit it to the things the "man on the street" would think of as "rock" or strongly related to that concept (such as glass), but not necessarily track what a scientist would call a "mineral". I think that boils down pretty much to "inorganic materials not including water". Temperature is less of an issue, until you get to seriously high temperatures (say, above about 150F, and certainly boiling or above) or seriously low temperatures (say, -40F or so). Presumably they're immune to pressure problems when using this attunement (otherwise they'd be crushed by the weight of the rock above them). >> If it's a Vapulan Tether, be sure to have an Impudite of Vapula around, >> and/or lots of Force Catchers. That might get rid of the problem entirely. > > hem... Impudites of Vapula... ... twice the >essence capacity, charm their victims and suck essence... Can't remember if they >have the Force measurement glasses... ... Oh, I give up!! What's the >story with them??? It's the Essence-measurement glasses -- it tends to give Kyrio hosts away, unless the Kyrio is fairly low on Essence. I used this trick on the Lightning Kyrio in my campaign; he wound up dumping his Essence on other people for a bit, to reduce himself to the amount that you might find in a pigeon (1-Force, so 1 Essence). He *loves* pigeon vessels.... >At this point, I can as well ask you guys for advice: I need a Vapulan Tether in >Washington. My Vapulan Tether in the Washington DC area is Ft. Meade (aka NSA headquarters). It's *full* of the very fastest computers on Earth, and is tied into just about every telecom system you can think of. > So any ideas are welcome (where, security >mesures, number of foes, etc). Ft. Meade is one of the most secure locations on Earth, at least as far as normal human capabilities go: lots of security guards toting automatic rifles, cameras and personnel detectors everywhere, push-button crypto locks all over the place, and the like. I believe the book "The Puzzle Palace" would give you a good view of the place, though I've never actually read it myself. In recent years, I believe the human component of the security has been outsourced -- they used to be Marines, but now I think they're supposed to be a private security company. All you need to add is a few anti-celestial measures, and it will be one tough nut to crack. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:22:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks Put it this way: The statement "This statement will immediately cause me dissonance" will cause a seraph dissonance, not for saying something false, but for screwing around with the truth. Naughty seraph. Dong! Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:25:28 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks At 13:44 -0400 5/26/00, Stephen M Gingell wrote: >Not that any sane Seraph would ever say this but what happens if a Seraph >says... > >"This statement will immediately cause me dissonance." > >;) It explodes messily.... Seriously, if someone did this in my game, I'd give them dissonance. Yeah, that would make it true, and therefore nominally not dissonant, but even contemplating this sort of trick ought to be worth some dissonance.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:26:47 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Mythic creatures and Angels >Gabby? She's okay with him. Jordi, on the other hand... he >*liked* the dragons... Darn tootin. Still I think Gabrielle was divided on the issue of Uriel's crusade... "On one hand fiery death purifications are good...hmmm yet...dragons breathe fire which can *BE* good...hmmmm decisions. Burn them both?" I'm wondering what would happen if an angel during Uriel's crusade against the Ethereals decided to hide some unicorns? I'm kinduv thinking about putting it in my character's background (Eli and Novalis servitor)-what do you think would be the punishment by Dominic for that? I'm thinking this might be a very interesting sub-plot if some angels acted as an "underground" railroad for the fey, mythic beasts, etc that they thought were being wrongfully slaughtered by Uriel in 600 or so A.D. (I figure it lasted til about the 14th century when he got the South American gods) Some angels might have even tried to help certain gods though I imagine that those beings recived considerably less help. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:48:23 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Stupid Seraph Tricks > "This statement will immediately cause me dissonance." IMC, I'd put the Seraph in Trauma for the standard duration, while he thinks about the consequences of trying to break his resonance. ^_^ - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:51:16 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Forces At 8:41 AM -0500 5/26/00, James Bearse wrote: >This makes an amusing sense, but instead of making just Michael disgustingly >powerful, why not assume this... Actually, IMC Michael *is* assumed to be disgustingly powerful. He's played as an ancient force that is at least in Lucifer's league himself -- and ready for a rematch whenever the First Balseraph wants to be smacked down again. David is the closest Archangel to Michael's overall power level, and Gabriel is next, quite a ways down the line (the constant Word-Battle with Belial has taken its toll on her). The Demon Princes are less powerful by far, as battle between them has kept them down, and Lucifer has made sure no one can challenge him. The most powerful of them is Baal, and Michael accords him that respect and the respect a true warrior has earned -- though when the Final Battle comes, Michael knows Baal won't be that much of a problem in and of himself. It's if Baal weakens Michael enough that *Lucifer* can win that concerns Michael mostly... None of which has huge impact with my players, save that when Michael shows up (which has happened once) his Word and his presence tend to cow most mere Immortals something fierce. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:26:57 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> LRP in England + Hot Fresh Art Hey y'all, once more this lil shedite needs your help... I'd like to set up an In Nomine LRP game, i've run lrps before but i cant find any rules for lrp I.N. so if any bodt han point me in the right direction to a freindly html with the rules i'd be mucho happyo. Also, i found some great art work for I.N and other games in a site run by Ruth i think, i can't remember her surname, but heres the addy: www.tarnishedimages.com check out all the art there it is totally out of this world, many pics there that are similar to 'poison elves' but many are great as malakim (they got black/purple wings!!!) and a lot of dragon pics that are great as seraphs and balseraphs, some great pics for mercurians aswell. check it out... are there any I.N muds?? Beth. you got my sympathies fot moving, i'm doing it too. its hell. hmm.. adventure seed... djinn of moving... new tether... location used by angels... hmmmm plot/plan.. thanks in advance as always for what you folks are gonna help me with. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1644 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.