From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 31 20:00:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12472 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 20:00:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA02791 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 31 May 2000 19:58:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:58:53 -0500 Message-Id: <200006010058.TAA02791@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1651 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1651 In this digest: Re: IN> Another Silly Thing IN> Marxism in Nomine Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine IN> Another Silly thing Re: IN> Another Silly Thing Re: IN> Another Silly thing IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1650 Re: IN> Long live the Revolution! Re: IN> Long live the Revolution! IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Another Silly Thing IN> The Importance of Words Re: IN> The Importance of Words Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Re: IN> The Importance of Words Re: IN> The Importance of Words IN> A fun trick to pull on your Seraph ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:52:40 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Another Silly Thing > David Rodemaker wrote: > > I think that, depending upon the campaign, you could even make an argument > > for "Romantic Fantasy" being a Major Word. > > I'd be skeptical about that. An Archangel of Romantic Fantasy seems > unlikely to me. I cannot ever imagine Romantic Fantasy as being strong enough to make the jump to Archangelic status. I can see it as being one of the more powerful Words under Love. At the moment I would probably place it at the high end of Significant or mayby the low end of Important. Probably in service to Blandine, possibly one of Eli's. > > The Important and Major catagories of Words really seem to be a case-by-case > > matter for the GM. Ie. in Kiara's campaign there is a Servitor of Death who > > formally held the Word of "Coup de Grace" which was guessed at about a Minor > > Word, possibly a Significant Word if really, really stretched. In further > > background development it was decided that the character had been promoted > > to the Major Word of "Merciful Death" Would everyone else put that Word as > > Major? Probably not, but within the context of her campaign it makes sense. > > Keep in mind that these categories are NOT "mechanical" in the sense > that Word-Forces are. They're convenient labels, but they reflect how > many Word-Forces the celestial has acquired, not the other way around. > So if someone manages to build up 18 Word-Forces around the Word of > Rancid Mayonnaise, well, Rancid Mayonnaise is a Major Word. To do that, > though, the Demon of Rancid Mayonnaise would have to make rancid > mayonnaise such an important phenomenon that it is crucial to the > Symphony. I never viewed the ability to build WF as being that elastic. I sort of see it as the Word (whatever it is) has a potential of say 14 Forces. However when it is first granted you only have, say, 11 WF available. The Celestial then has a combination of "learning the Word" and "promoting/bolstering the Word" to do to get all the way to 14 Forces. Anything beyond that would require a major change in the Symphony. In general I would think that it is much easier to be promoted to a "bigger" Word than to try to boost a Word more than one catagory. Mind you it doesn't stop the Demon of Spam from trying... The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:00:07 -0700 From: tcp@zoomnet.net Subject: IN> Marxism in Nomine I personally disagree with an Ethereal Karl Marx on general princible as he would be hard pressed to deny virtually everything in the universe...the core of being an atheist for the Party was that the physical was what matters and not the spiritual. Given angels and the theme of In Nomine is that the spirit does interact with the physical and vice versa-they are one in the same indeed. It's hard to hold that princible... However. I run a Demons game where the place is Pre-Revolution Russia. So this hits core to home. Definately there would be a Demon of Communism but determining his choir would be very difficult because of the wide aspects of the negative aspects of the perversion of it's princibles... Balseraph (Inner Party man)-The Game or Factions Calabim (Viva La Revolution!)- Baal or Belial (fire was a aspect of it) Even a Lilim of Vapula (Rapid technological growth without any regard for the consquences) Indeed a whole "Dark Trinity" working towards the spread of communism in the world today might be an amusing little byplay for everyone. If anyone ever saw the Episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer titled "Anne" then you'll find the flip side of the argument with an Angel of Communism. A beutiful woman seeking to free people enslaved by demon corrupted religeon and capitalist society to find their own free reign in society. An enemy of Mamnon and his fascist greedy pig workings...no doubt she's not too fond of Marc too (maybe she's a former servitor of his?) and probably not Dominic, Yves, Lawrence, or the like. I'd say Elohim of David for intellectual Princibles of Marxism (that's where they work best) and someone fiery and passionate (Gabrielle anyone) for the Angel of it? Jean would also work as well I think. The Communist part of Hell would probably be a cold barren place save for the huge furnances that constantly burn everything in their path. Souls are used as slaves to create weapons for the demons and individuality is beaten out completely. Killing fields, Pollution, and endless wastes make this a Hell in Hell for any Lilim or Mammonites (or Habbalah) as Calabim gaurds love abusing the pigs. I doubt a version of Communist Hell would exist though as the princibles contradict each other too much. An Ethereal Marx spirit (he went to the Marches because he believed in his princibles so much that they formed a realm for him)...might be amusing...especially when people's fears about Communism make it nasty. - -Charlemagne - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:24:53 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine At 2:45 AM -0700 5/30/00, O. S. Kerr wrote: > > (I say metagame because my PCs are generally more concerned > > with 'that Calabite has a really big bomb and if I step out > > to do something his resonance will turn me into Mercurikibble' > > than the mythic underpinnings of the game.) > >"Mercurikibble." > >Okay, you got me. I laughed and laughed. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:50:35 -0700 From: tcp@zoomnet.net Subject: IN> Another Silly thing Well I want to say I simply love Nybblas's little pain in her back as I currently am working towards "Faith" The Lilim Deva of Daytime. She's truly a wonderful character. I can just imagine her puttering around Passions behind the set. "See See...Demons exist! I'm saying fight them! Can you PLLEEEASE now get Dominic off my back? GEez...one comment about a priest who falls in love and BOOM..." However I must agree that Soap Opera does seem a bit strange for a word from Heaven. *Escapist Romance* has already been suggested. *Mass Produced Storytelling* seems a bit big for a word. Plus a Marc word. *Daytime Writing* actually seems like the best one. She is the patron not only of the work itself but also the writers of the work and begins to tweak them? - -Charlie - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Another Silly Thing Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:07:17 -0500From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Another Silly Thing >Maurice Lane wrote: >> I was surprised too, when I looked up the Word-Force >> Levels in the GMG: I was expecting it to be much >> lower. However, the darn things are everywhere: I >> _know_ that Australia, Mexico, England and most of >> South America has their own, and I'm pretty sure >>that other countries do too. >EVERY country has them. (Every country that has TV, >anyway.) However, it takes more than being ubiquitous >to be an important Word. It also has to have a >significant impact on a lot of peoples' lives. Now, >it's true that there are a lot of soap addicts, but I >don't think the world as we know it would drastically >change if soaps all disappeared. You'd just have some >disgruntled, more bored housewives. ;)- >-David I'm not so sure about that: I have four sisters, all of whom went postal whenever their favorite soaps got preempted by some boring assassination attempt or air disaster or whatever. ;) Seriously, not being addicted myself (except for the aforementioned near miss), I'm not certain how important the genre really is to those who watch it, but I suspect that its sudden disappearance might be fairly significant.* Also, upon reflection I would say that this Word would be prone to almost daily fluctuation: during sweeps months, it goes up a lot, and drops whenever the various storylines get jaded. Very ... well, melodramatic. 9 seemed a reasonable average. If any of you actually plan to _use_ this NPC, feel free to knock her Word Forces down to fit: the power of her Word wasn't that big a factor in the creation process. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Sneakily Using Examples of Words Published in the GMG to Support An Argument *I mean, to me at least, Soap Operas are way more significant to the Symphony than, say, Barbie Dolls or Pipe Bombs. I'd even argue that it's more significant than Birds of Prey... :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:15:16 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Another Silly thing > >*Daytime Writing* actually seems like the best one. > >She is the patron not only of the work itself but also the writers >of the work and begins to tweak them? > If you want a more outlandish one, how about the Angel of Mythic Sagas -- probably a Servitor of Blandine Gabriel. It moved on from inspiring the Eddas, the Kalevala, Odyssey and Illiad, and now uses the same techniques to reach a wider audience. (You don't think Soap Operas use plots from all those sagas? :) ) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:25:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1650 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:44:31 -0500From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Another Silly Thing >I could see "Romantic Fantasy" being Important IF the >Word-holder is able to expand the scope of his Word >to include the literal (as opposed to literary) >romantic fantasies that nearly everyone has. If he >started out as the Angel of Soap Operas, and got >"promoted" to Angel of Romantic Fantasies on the >strength of his ability to tie soaps into Harlequin >romances and other forms of entertainment media, then >I'd say his Word is still somewhat smaller....but it >does have plenty of room to expand. >(But he'd probably want to be serving Blandine, if he >doesn't already.) - - -David I thought about that, actually (the original writeup had her as a Creationer IST Dreams), but I junked it for four reasons: 1) Blandine mostly works in a specialized arena, which is _not_ the corporeal realm; 2) Neither Eli's or Blandine's Attunements fit quite right, while Yves' work just fine*; 3) I delete my playtest files, once said playtest is done, so I don't remember either's extended writeup; 4), having her serve Destiny was more ... again, dramatic. Or even melodramatic. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Incongruity *The gift of an Attunement from Jean was a bit of a joke: I got this image of him locking the door to his private lab and whipping out a hoarded videotape of General Hospital, and it was too amusing to _not_ use. ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:11:56 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Long live the Revolution! Christopher Lee writes: > > Now this takes all your Communists out of the loop for Essence > donations to Heaven, or any gods for that matter. However, it cannot > be denied that the belief in the theories of Marx ran to deep devotion > and fanatiscism among many devotees. One thinks of Che Guevarra, > Lenin, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg, etc, etc. It is undeniable that > throughout the last century many millions placed their faith in Marx > rather than God. So what happens to this devotion? > > I would suggest that instead of just diaspating it actually formed a > new Ethereal realm, a Marxist one, receiving Essence from the world's > atheist/agnostic socialists. It makes as much sense as the robotic > being in the LS, or the Greys, etc. This idea is profoundly and deeply cool. :) > So I have designed a sort of Marxist Ethereal realm, peopled by class > warriors and politicised proletarian heroes. The general appearance > is a cross between Fritz Lang's Metropolis and the look of 30's > political posters, with square-jawed workers struggling to achieve a > socialist utopia. Of course, as this is a 'dream' realm the > Revolution has produced a benign altrusitic utopia (no Joe Stalin's > here). The most powerful spirits are those who believe they are Karl > Marx, Frederick Engels, Lenin and Che. They are probably NOT the > actual souls of these men, but rather spirits formed around the dreams > and hopes attached to them by mortals. So to all intents and purposes > they believe they ARE the people they are supposed to be. I definitely agree that the spirits should be based on the idealization rather than the reality, because if you want to use the reality in a magical setting you've already got Shal-Mari and Hades. Also -- why is there only one Marxist realm? After all, the vigorous, active state busy seizing capital for the people described in _The Communist Manifesto_ is nothing at all like the loose confederation of voluntary associations envisioned by Kropotkin. Marxists are even worse than libertarians when it comes to sectarian disagreements. I'm sure that you'd have syndicalists, left anarchists, state Communists, Trotskyists (state Communists who hate the other state Communists, plus a bunch of anarchosocialists who believe that *they* are the true Trotskyism), and liberation theology Catholics. :) > Their relations with angels and demons are a bit odd, as they believe > that there is no God. Therefore, they suspect ALL other Ethereals and > Celestials of being class enemies and agents of the reactionary, > bourgeois forces in the universe. They understand that they are a > sort of transcendant region, and they believe that therefore the class > struggle must continue in the greater universe above Earth. There is > no distinction between all other spirits and Celestials. I really like this idea, especially since Heaven is a naturally hierarchical place. They claim that this is good (because God is more just and more good than anyone else) but it's gotta suck if you want to erase class distinctions. > Of course, they are not the power they were. The Soviet Union is > gone, the Chinese have essentially become a nationalist oligarchy > rather than a Communist state. Thus they are weakening and > receding, but still get lots of fervent Essence from many idealistic > people the world over, more than that given to many Ethereal gods. I think that the fall of the Soviet state would have hurt them pretty badly, but not for the reasons you outline. The Soviets had pretty much exhausted their citizenry's idealism by the early 20s (the end of the NEP and the start of 'dekulakization'). Rosa Luxembourg's _My Disillusionment in Russia_ is a pretty fair account of the sorts of behavior the Bolsheviks engaged in. Likewise with China (the giant famines of the 50s destroyed their internal credibility). However, the existence of the Soviet Union was pretty inspiring to people outside of it (cf Orwell's _Homage to Catalonia_) and its fall was incredibly demoralizing to the true believers, especially when its internal records were opened to historians. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:00:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Long live the Revolution! I dunno. I think it would be more fun if the Ethereal Marx and Lenin, etc., were dreamshades, the souls of the historical Marx and Lenin. Whatever happens, they are going to have to do a certain amount of back-pedaling and baffle-gab about the spirit realm, and having it be the real ghosts adds picquancy. If you want Communists in Hell, you can use Stalin and Mao... Speaking of which, the desparate hand-waving might take a form like a variation of the Ethereal Heresy -- the Corporeal Plane is the original, primary plane, but minds of Corporeal beings generate the Ethereal Plane, of which the Celestial Plane is just an imperialistically bloated part. And this is all couched in the terminology of psychical research, which the Soviets are semi-famous for dabbling in. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:59:32 EDT From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net Subject: IN> Celestial Form Question Hi. I'm Pat and an In Nomine newbie. I accept your wrath for asking for asking stupid questions. The rules give good descriptions of the different choirs' typical celestial forms, and I've seen it pretty much spelled out that in the Celestial realm, an angel cannot disguise their celestial form. But there seems to be an unofficial feel that angels can appear other than their celestial form. Everyone refers to Michael kicking Lucifer's butt in hand to hand, but since one was a seraph and the other a balseraph, it should of been a lot of wing flapping, tail whipping etc. (Of course, the hand-to-hand phrase might not have been intended to be taken literally, and indeed refers to all manufacturers of dairy products.) My question is, is there any allowance in the rules for alternate celestial forms? I couldn't find it in the FAQ, and in looking through the list digest (which is huge task, even using searches) I did find a mention to archangels looking like a favorite vessel in the Celestial realm, which seems to contradict the official celestial rules. I apologize if this was covered before... It just seems to me that most celestial artifacts meant to be used by manipulation wouldn't be too useful to beings without hands, like Seraphim, Ofanim, and some Cherubim (winged horses and so on...) Pat Sponaugle - -- - ---------- Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:00:30 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question > My question is, is there any allowance in the rules for alternate celestial forms? I > couldn't find it in the FAQ, and in looking through the list digest (which is huge > task, even using searches) I did find a mention to archangels looking like a favorite > vessel in the Celestial realm, which seems to contradict the official celestial rules. If I'm not mistaken, celestial forms can be modified (so that they have hands, feet, et cetera). There's a catch, though - you're /always/ identifiable as a member of your choir or band. A Seraph is always recognizable as a Seraph, a Lilim is always a Lilim. If I'm not mistaken. ^_^ - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:24:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question At 10:59 AM -0400 5/31/00, AngelPatriel@netscape.net wrote: >[...] But there seems to be an unofficial feel that angels can appear >other than their celestial form. The way that I have always described this is "they can be both at once." The celestial realm is different from the corporeal realm, and a celestial can manifest its vessel-form there _while at the same time_ being obviously whatever Choir/Band it is. Superiors, on a whole 'nuther plane of beingness, may not show their Choir/Band so overtly -- or they might. GM option. I generally rule that a Seraph, say, will be at once both its celestial form, and its vessel-form, should it choose to manifest its vessel-form. (Such as if it desires to use hands to tote a sword around, to demonstrate proper technique to Mercurian or Malakite students.) In Hell, a Balseraph is more likely to appear as sort of a "Naga," with a snakey tail, bat wings, and a human upper body. You can still see all six eyes if you squint, though. O:> This is made overt in the forthcoming GURPS In Nomine conversion. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:13:22 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question In a message dated 5/31/00 8:01:07 AM, AngelPatriel@netscape.net writes: >It just seems to me that most celestial artifacts meant to be used by manipulation >wouldn't be too useful to beings without hands, like Seraphim, Ofanim, >and some Cherubim (winged horses and so on...) > My understanding is that Achangels (and only archangels) can change their celestial form at will, but that celestials in celestial form can manipulate things without needing to use gross manipulative members. Essentially, they use their will to move things about... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:44:26 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question >>If I'm not mistaken, celestial forms can be modified (so that they have hands, feet, et cetera). There's a catch, though - you're /always/ identifiable as a member of your choir or band. A Seraph is always recognizable as a Seraph, a Lilim is always a Lilim.<< Well, Yves is said to always appear as an elderly gentleman with greying hair - even in heaven... Ki (Then again, there's the question of what Yves *is*, and what his ordinary form *might* be...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:13:55 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> Another Silly Thing > >> I was surprised too, when I looked up the > Word-Force > >> Levels in the GMG: I was expecting it to be much > >> lower. However, the darn things are everywhere: I > >> _know_ that Australia, Mexico, England and most of > >> South America has their own, and I'm pretty sure > >>that other countries do too. > > >EVERY country has them. (Every country that has TV, > >anyway.) However, it takes more than being ubiquitous > >to be an important Word. It also has to have a > >significant impact on a lot of peoples' lives. Now, > >it's true that there are a lot of soap addicts, but I > >don't think the world as we know it would drastically > >change if soaps all disappeared. You'd just have some > >disgruntled, more bored housewives. ;)- > >-David I think that the other thing that needs to be taken account of when determining the importance of a Word is who that Word serves... Ie. Merciful Death is much more important to Death than to War or the Sword. Part of having a Word is up-keeping it and having all the people who hold subsets of your Word reporting to you . Maintaining a Major Word isn't just up to the holder but also the Archangel that s/he serves since there is *so* much that goes into it. I would suggest sort of reverse engineering how powerful a Word is that way... Figure out who the Word serves and the figure out how important they think it is, then take a look at the Symphony (the World) and decide if the Word is living up the "potential" Don't forget to think about how the Word applies to non-humans also. Merciful Death applies to a lot more than just people, every living thing can be touched by it and and without it Death would only be seen as either a bad thing or at best as a neutral thing. I would argue that an Archangel can boost a Word past it "norm" ala the Major Word of Rancid Mayonaise but short of Kobal no-one would waste the time and energy to do it, otherwise all thier other Major Words are going to suffer... > *I mean, to me at least, Soap Operas are way more > significant to the Symphony than, say, Barbie Dolls or > Pipe Bombs. I'd even argue that it's more significant > than Birds of Prey... :) Think about how different the ecology of the planet would be if there were birds that only ate seeds, insects, and dead animals... Think about all the things that Birds of Prey have inspired in humans... Think about Jordi biting your head off for even suggesting such an idea... The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:31:17 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Importance of Words David Rodemaker wrote: > I think that the other thing that needs to be taken account of when > determining the importance of a Word is who that Word serves... Who the Word serves would affect how the Word is *interpreted* (which is why some Word-bound celestials have been known to switch Superiors when they felt their Word would do better under a different Archangel or Demon Prince). And of course, your interpretation of your Word is likely to have an effect on how influential you can make it. But the Word's Superior doesn't *directly* affect its importance, or Word-Forces. > Maintaining a Major Word isn't just up to the > holder but also the Archangel that s/he serves since there is *so* much that > goes into it. An Archangel/Prince doesn't *directly* maintain subordinate Words (that's WHY they delegate lesser Words to their Servitors), though they will probably take action if a Word-bound Servitor is underperforming, since that ultimately cuts into their own power base. > I would argue that an Archangel can boost a Word past it > "norm" ala the Major Word of Rancid Mayonaise Not directly they can't. A Demon Prince couldn't just say "I'm going to expend a ton of Essence and make my Servitor, the Demon of Rancid Mayonnaise, have a Major Word with 18 Word-Forces." Superiors can grant more Corporeal, Ethereal, and Celestial Forces, but only Symphonic changes can bestow more Word-Forces. A Superior who made an all-out push to increase the influence of a lesser Word could probably increase its Word-Forces indirectly, by increasing its influence in the Symphony (Kobal instructs all his Servitors to go around replacing mayonnaise jars on store shelves with rancid ones, and his comedians around the world start telling rancid mayonnaise jokes, and his pranksters start slipping rancid mayonnaise into sandwiches served to celebrities and politicians, and suddenly there's a global furor over the "rancid mayonnaise epidemic"). However, I think the amount of energy he'd have to expend would be far greater than what he'd recoup by giving such a boost to one of his Servitors. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:02:30 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> The Importance of Words > David Rodemaker wrote: > > I think that the other thing that needs to be taken account of when > > determining the importance of a Word is who that Word serves... > > Who the Word serves would affect how the Word is *interpreted* (which is > why some Word-bound celestials have been known to switch Superiors when > they felt their Word would do better under a different Archangel or > Demon Prince). And of course, your interpretation of your Word is likely > to have an effect on how influential you can make it. But the Word's > Superior doesn't *directly* affect its importance, or Word-Forces. Yes, and if no Superior thinks that a Word needs to be Major then that celestials job is going to be *much* harder since the Superior is probably not going to look kindly at a servitor spending valuable resources on a "waste of time". > > Maintaining a Major Word isn't just up to the > > holder but also the Archangel that s/he serves since there is *so* much that > > goes into it. > > An Archangel/Prince doesn't *directly* maintain subordinate Words > (that's WHY they delegate lesser Words to their Servitors), though they > will probably take action if a Word-bound Servitor is underperforming, > since that ultimately cuts into their own power base. No but they do delegate the resources that a subordinate has to maintain the Word with. While lesser Word-bound do some recruiting for thier "organization" I really don't see them just being able to pick a celestial off the street and say "You work for me now..." > > I would argue that an Archangel can boost a Word past it > > "norm" ala the Major Word of Rancid Mayonaise > > Not directly they can't. A Demon Prince couldn't just say "I'm going to > expend a ton of Essence and make my Servitor, the Demon of Rancid > Mayonnaise, have a Major Word with 18 Word-Forces." Superiors can grant > more Corporeal, Ethereal, and Celestial Forces, but only Symphonic > changes can bestow more Word-Forces. A Superior who made an all-out push > to increase the influence of a lesser Word could probably increase its > Word-Forces indirectly, by increasing its influence in the Symphony > (Kobal instructs all his Servitors to go around replacing mayonnaise > jars on store shelves with rancid ones, and his comedians around the > world start telling rancid mayonnaise jokes, and his pranksters start > slipping rancid mayonnaise into sandwiches served to celebrities and > politicians, and suddenly there's a global furor over the "rancid > mayonnaise epidemic"). However, I think the amount of energy he'd have > to expend would be far greater than what he'd recoup by giving such a > boost to one of his Servitors. I would violently agree with you. I also think that this a "chicken or the egg" sort of question. Is the Word Major because the Symphony says so (Yes.) or is it important because everyone treats it as so, maintains it as so, and has for the past gazillion years. (Also yes, sort of) The concept exists with a Word to define it, but once there is a Word for it there is a certain amount of control to that concept. The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:32:36 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question From: > > My question is, is there any allowance in the rules for > alternate celestial forms? I couldn't find it in the FAQ, > and in looking through the list digest (which is huge > task, even using searches) I did find a mention to > archangels looking like a favorite vessel in the > Celestial realm, which seems to contradict the official > celestial rules. Superiors are able to do a lot of things that PCs can't, appearing in celestial form as their preferred vessel being but one of them. I don't know of any actual rules on alternate forms, but I do have an alternate form suggestion for Calabim. I agree with those who think that having their celestial forms be so utterly different from those of Ofanim, while other bands' forms are twisted versions of their angelic counterparts, isn't quite right. So the form I plan on using in my games is a cracked sphere, surrounded by a hazy field of energy. While the flaming wheels of an Ofanite's celestial form embodies their knack for motion perfectly, the Calabite's stillness is (IMNSHO) perfectly embodied by a ball of collapsed material. A white dwarf to the Ofanite's star, as it were. The field surrounding the sphere is of course the Calabite's entropic field, and the cracks in the sphere are caused by the Discord it took at creation. Thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:44:00 EDT From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Thanks everyone for the input. I'll probably adopt the 2-in-1 view, where an angel can optionally project the image of a favorite vessel (possibly with wings and halo...), within the nimbus/outline/flaming silhouette of their choir. Pat - -- - ---------- Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:43:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question Prodigal wrote: > So the form I plan on using in my games is a cracked sphere, > surrounded by a hazy field of energy. Sounds good. Someone else suggested dark spirals, the spiral being a broken wheel. I suggested that, since ofanim usually have more than one ring, calabim be a cluster of spinning, scimitar-like crescents, always piercing and clawing at the world. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:53:11 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question From: "Earl Wajenberg" > Prodigal wrote: > > > So the form I plan on using in my games is a cracked sphere, > > surrounded by a hazy field of energy. > > Sounds good. Someone else suggested dark spirals, the spiral > being a broken wheel. I suggested that, since ofanim usually > have more than one ring, calabim be a cluster of spinning, > scimitar-like crescents, always piercing and clawing at the world. I had originally thought of something along the lines of a wheel of spikes, but having all the motion that symbolises the Ofanim being entirely external was too good an image not to go with. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Form Question On Wed, 31 May 2000 AngelPatriel@netscape.net wrote: > I'll probably adopt the 2-in-1 view, where an angel can optionally > project the image of a favorite vessel (possibly with wings and > halo...), within the nimbus/outline/flaming silhouette of their > choir. I don't even see it as a projection within a nimbus. Since we're on the Celestial plane, perception works differently. The way I see it, an angel, if he so desires, can appear to be a perfectly solid, normal looking copy of his vessel, with no ghosted celestial form about him. However, anyone looking at him, will *also* perceive his true celestial form. Not superimposed, but both perceptable. It sounds paradoxical, but Celestial perception is different, so these things can work. This sort of thing makes things like military training in the Groves much more practical. If you're training for corporeal combat, you have to be think-moving limbs and such that are analogous to corporeal vessel limbs; this is particularly important for such as Seraphs and Ofanites. The key is that while you can use this as a fashion statement, to help make mortal souls feel at ease, or for convenience, you simply cannot use it to hide your true nature-- unless, perhaps, you're a Superior. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:11:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Importance of Words David Rodemaker wrote: > Yes, and if no Superior thinks that a Word needs to be Major then that > celestials job is going to be *much* harder since the Superior is probably > not going to look kindly at a servitor spending valuable resources on a > "waste of time". How do you figure? A Superior will expect any Word-bound celestial to zealously support his Word -- that's the nature of being Word-bound. Promoting a subordinate Word will, in the ineffable way that Words are assumed to work in In Nomine, support the Superior's Word. If the Angel of Remembering Where You Put Your Car Keys has aspirations of making his Word major, his Archangel will probably give him a pat on the head and wish him luck. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:12:24 -0500 From: "David Rodemaker" Subject: Re: IN> The Importance of Words \ > David Rodemaker wrote: > > Yes, and if no Superior thinks that a Word needs to be Major then that > > celestials job is going to be *much* harder since the Superior is probably > > not going to look kindly at a servitor spending valuable resources on a > > "waste of time". > > How do you figure? A Superior will expect any Word-bound celestial to > zealously support his Word -- that's the nature of being Word-bound. > Promoting a subordinate Word will, in the ineffable way that Words are > assumed to work in In Nomine, support the Superior's Word. If the Angel > of Remembering Where You Put Your Car Keys has aspirations of making his > Word major, his Archangel will probably give him a pat on the head and > wish him luck. Sure, but that's about all they would do. I don't see the Superior spending the time and effort into promoting a small Word into something that doesn't fit with their idea of where the Word should go... On the Infernal side this is where some of the Vapula/Nybbas "conflict" comes in. This may very well be part of the advantage that Hell has over Heaven. Heaven assigns Words by "committee" while in Hell all you have to do is convince one person. Now the reality is a little more complicated than that but the dynamics could pretty much be boiled down to that. Back to the original point however, Any Superior is going to support a Word-bound in their quest in making their Word as powerful as possible. There is going to be the careful balancing act involved in making sure that no other Words suffer as a consequence, or at least that the power gain ends up on the plus side for the Superior. This can lead to all sorts of politicking within the Archangels camp and all the other related Words that belong to some other AA. All this brings the Word-bound back to the same place, unless the Superior *thinks* that the Word needs to be more powerful then it's up the individual to promote the Word, and they better be able to justify any use of official resources in the attempt. Especially with some AA's this could be a real problem (Dominic, Laurence, Jordi possibly) and others are a much more understanding of the whole set of circumstances (Eli, Janus, mayby Jean, probably Michael) The other thing about Heaven is that they are supposed to team players as opposed to a bunch of self-centered ...demons... ignoring what is best for the Symphony for what is best for the Word. The reality is a bit different from the ideal. In Hell the general paranoia of your peers makes boosting your Word in this way difficult at best without support from your Superior. Also, if you do too good a job you will have promoted your self from "Valued Underling" to "Potential Threat" to "Jockeying for the Throne" and we all know where that leads... The Other David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:52:17 +1000 From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> A fun trick to pull on your Seraph Have an NPC say to your Seraph "Heaven is going to lose the War", and if the Seraph rolls a six tell him that the NPC believes it is the Truth and SO DOES THE SYMPHONY. If you're a _nice_ GM, the NPC in question will be a Balseraph, but... SurturZ Habbalite of Factions. Angel of Constructive Criticism. It would have been nicer if I hadn't needed to tell you. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1651 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.