From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 7 14:23:56 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14504 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:23:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA15396 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:21:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:21:14 -0500 Message-Id: <200006071921.OAA15396@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1665 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1665 In this digest: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> Welcome to Fat Charlie's! Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Fwd: Re: IN> Plot thingy needed! Fwd: Re: IN> Human to Demon Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> Jack the Ripper Re: IN> Plot thingy needed! Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> The Final Frontier Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... IN> Dominic and Destiny IN> The Angelic Bible IN> Fat Charlie and the Librarian IN> Ripper Jack IN> The Morningstar Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> Dominic and Destiny IN> Jack the Ripper IN> City Regions IN> Changing Names Re: IN> The Angelic Bible Re: IN> The Angelic Bible Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Re: IN> Jack the Ripper Re: IN> Human to Demon IN> About Michael and Command of the Host... Re: IN> The Angelic Bible Re: IN> Changing Names Re: IN> Changing Names ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jun 2000 04:13:39 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... On Tue, 06 June 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Balseraph Balseraphs Liar(s), Serpent(s) This never made any sense to me. Why isn't it Balseraphim, to make it consistent with Seraph/Seraphim? - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:19:24 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Welcome to Fat Charlie's! >Meanwhile Fat Charlie's can be popped into most campaigns as a >meeting-place for almost any sort of character, and also as a flophouse and >way station for angelic ones. You bet it can! :) Thanks for a great writeup Doug! - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of Kronos - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:25:42 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... >Djinn Djinn Stalker(s) They also hate to be called Djinnis. :) (Especially if they have light brown hair) This annoying tidbit of "humor" has been brought to you by: - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of Kronos (transferring to Asmodeus) - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:48:32 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... At 12:25 PM +0000 6/7/00, Erich S. Arendall wrote: >>Djinn Djinn Stalker(s) > >They also hate to be called Djinnis. :) >(Especially if they have light brown hair) And *don't* play that theme song. Not so much the one about light brown hair, but there's nothing that gets up a Djinn's nose and gets them gunning down schools like walking by, going "Doo doot! Doo doo doo doo doo! Dooooo doot! Doo doo doo doo doo doo..." - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:12:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Plot thingy needed! Remember that your name has to be at least on the in_nomine_posters-l! >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:43:30 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Matt Trent ] >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:40:42 -0500 >From: Matt Trent >Reply-To: mtrent@bigfoot.com >Subject: Re: IN> Plot thingy needed! > >ben wrote: >> >> Any ideas would be appreciated. > >Wow. I'm impressed. Here's a few suggestions that sprang to mind. > >On convincing part of the heavenly host that the Uriel is the guanine >article I see two possible routes that you could go down one or perhaps >even both... First one way to convince the naysayers would be to >retrieve Uriel's sword, which IIRC is hidden in the mountains bordering >the marshes, at a Tsayadim outpost to be precise. With Laurance's >affinity for swords he should be certain that this is the one that his >former master wielded. Also its important to remember that angelic >(even archangelic) memories aren't perfect*, so you may be able to >retain a bit of doubt so that Laurance can realize his mistake later. >Secondly I like the idea of kidnaping a Tsayadim to strip one of Uriel's >personal forces from it, but you shouldn't settle for just any Tsayadim >as they might not have one of his personal forces... It might be better >to go after an angel who was known to be his offspring (legitimate or >otherwise), this could give you to opportunity to let someone who's >archangel hasn't gotten involved yet have some fun as the angel in >question probably has gone into the service of it's other parent when >Uriel was called away, either that or they're leading the Tsayadim. >Should be fun capturing in any case. Both would probably go quite a >ways to convince laurance that he's genuine, though at the beginning I >don't expect Laurance to be looking too closely. Uriel insipid a >fanaticism similar to Gabby's and he'd probably be thrilled just to see >his old boss back. At first anyway. > >As to etherals being able to fight heaven, well in the current canonical >situation probably not. Oh a few are on a come back, but no new tethers >have appeared which means that the essence they get is minimal. If this >were to change... The ones best suited to fighting Heaven would be the >Japanese ethereal who have been empowered by selling their souls to >Nybbas. Though it might get complicated. It's probably best to just >leave them out or have the new Uriel kill a few of 'm to prove his >allegiance to heaven. > >Also canon says that no ethereal can enter heaven. As for ways to get >around it I suppose a unique artifact would do it... you might even make >it a property of the true Uriel's sword, though how you would justify >this I don't know. > >As for releasing the true Uriel I'd have Kobal try to do it himself if >it's within his power. Wouldn't two of 'm causing confusion just be >grand? > >Trent > >* if you don't believe me check out >http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/angelic/excerpts.html > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:13:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Human to Demon >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:41:47 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Tim Groth ] >Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:41:47 -0400 >From: Tim Groth >Subject: Re: IN> Human to Demon >X-Apparently-From: SdshowTim@aol.com > >>It's sort of "We had to destroy the soul to save it." Wouldn't compute >>for angels.... > >But they could just make Redeemed Undead nearly indestructable as a reward. >They may be denied true paradise in Heaven, but they will never be >obliterated. Michael and Laurance would probably like that method. > >Many Archangels (Dominic especially) probably believe God will restore the >Redeemed Undead. > > > >Timothy, Angel of Rambling >Ofanite of Creation >ArchRival of Mathus > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:14:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... At 4:13 AM -0700 6/7/00, Casca wrote: >On Tue, 06 June 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Balseraph Balseraphs Liar(s), Serpent(s) > >This never made any sense to me. Why isn't it Balseraphim, to make it >consistent with Seraph/Seraphim? Because Derek wrote it that way -- I just codified the blessed things. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:35:36 EDT From: "Angela Smythe" Subject: Re: IN> Jack the Ripper >>So yes, it _would_ be Scary if Jack is just a human. So who is the modern >>'Jack'? One idea is to have a sevrant of Kronos, with the word of Serial Murderers running around. Maybe this demon helped the first Jack (with or without Jack's knowledge) and got his word, but helping to make copycat killers. Maybe the demon was disguised as the human investigator at the time and helped to make sure that Jack was not caught. The Demon figured out that corrupted one human to his dark fate of Serial Murder, and letting him escape mortal justice would feed the fates of others. With the aid of Nybbas and his media, the Serial Killer is a feared and public image. Almost every killing creates copycats who want ot be just like Serial Killer. Maybe the Demon has decided to recreate Jack to boost up a new breed of Serial Killers. Their was an episode of Millenia with four demons in a coffee shop. If you can find a copy it is perfect example of the demon I'm talking about. Angela ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:41:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Plot thingy needed! Walter Milliken wrote: > >Is there any way the characters could try to find the *real* > >Uriel, and would this necessarily be a Good Idea? > > This is probably way into CDaU in canon; he's supposedly in the > Higher Heavens, and "you can't get there from here" anymore. Or > at least get back. But it was possible at one time, apparently. > Also, if God stashed Uriel somewhere else (for whatever ineffable > reason), they might be able to do something. And of course if God *wants* them to find Uriel, they'll find him, and it will definitionally be a Good Idea, though it might not turn out to be an event the PCs are comfortable with. (The Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Ten Plagues of Egypt were also God's ideas, but were not met with the same enthusiasm in all quarters. The return of Uriel is an event of similar scale, and possibly similar nature.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:17:03 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Casca wrote: > This never made any sense to me. Why isn't it Balseraphim, to make it > consistent with Seraph/Seraphim? Same reason it's Seraphim Council when grammatically, it should be Seraph Council. Thus It Is Written, Thus Shall It Be. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:12:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... Casca wrote: > This never made any sense to me. Why isn't it Balseraphim, to > make it consistent with Seraph/Seraphim? Consistency? You want consistency? Then why is "Lilim" used as the singular rather than "Lilite"? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Because Derek wrote it that way -- I just codified the blessed > things. At least I know who to blame now. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:14:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Final Frontier Charles Phipps wrote: > Jean-He controls gravitic pull and the slow tilt of the universe. > He's annoyed as hell for some reason everything is spinning > closer together for some reason. Huh? What astronomical phenomenon are you talking about? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:33:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... > Same reason it's Seraphim Council when grammatically, it should be > Seraph Council. Thus It Is Written, Thus Shall It Be. Because, as we all know, the StyleSheet was one of those things given to Moses as he spoke to the flaming bush on Mt. Sinai in Exodus. That's right folks, the 10 Commandments and the In Nomine StyleSheet are both chisled on stone tablets and tucked into the Ark of the Covenant. It's that just that holy. Laying eyes upon the original StyleSheet may turn you to stone, or worse -- encourage you to play some other game, unless you are an Author of the the lineage of Levi, or are an Author wearing Levis, whichever comes first. Mockery of the StyleSheet is strictly verboten. And witness he pain and misery of those who would screw with the StyleSheet or attempt to correct the poor spellings, bad conjugations, and poor plural forms therein, for God has spoken and if you do so you'll be tossed off the mail list, ridiculed, called a "bad fan", and stoned. And God Help he who would suggest putting out a 2nd Edition to correct this crap, because it was written that way in the beginning and there will only be one covenant of spellings and misspellings between God and the fans. There can be no other StyleSheet except the true StyleSheet, and no corrections or changes will come before it. - - Em (Sheeh.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:18:53 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Dominic and Destiny > want to go and what we want to do when we get there....plus to leave > whenever we get bored. >This I don't get. It sounds like voluntary suicide, but I doubt that's what you intended. Don't feel bad, Yves didn't get it either. "What about Fate and Destiny?" Nope. We can leave the Earth, Heaven, and Hell by choosing to embrace whole heartidly the other side's ethics and opening ourselves up to. In truth "inviting good and evil in.." I wouldn't invite Hell in truth be told. Didn't due to well for Lucifer. (House rule: Prayers to either side can be heard by Celestial and certain acts of "aligned" power that are especially strong) >Not at all. I hate guessing. Now, if you had given me some clues, from which I could have derived the >answer... I did in Eli. It all depends on looking at it from his or perhaps another perspective. What may orginally not make sense may actually just take a different frame of mind to look at. - -Yves seraphim quote >I think you're selling him short. Remember he's the Archangel of DESTINY, the oldest entity other than God, >and the next best thing to omniscient. Yes indeed truth be told I doubt he's working on the problem as he believes that Destiny will eventually assert it's dominance itself and things will get back on track. Though as one might guess by Michael's lack of Faith in the old codger that some people are none too optimistic Yves has any clue what's going on in today's world due to the demons. >Which is nothing more than a plot seed, and not even canon. Which was exerpted but which is still fun for making jests at the expense of the Archangels. If was serious I would dramatically comment on how Laurence would be willing to throw himself against Baal, Asmodeus, and Kronos simultaneously in celestial form if he could save a fellow angel's life. >Do you really think Dominc is that stupid? No though I find "Sparky" an amusing concept for a game. Truth be told it inspired me to create a gavel for Dominic that's an artifact 6. Causing song of order (similar to harmony) very high and shooting out lighting whenver it strikes someone...maybe even duplicating an attument too. It's a gavel for dominic but a warhammer for most angels....it seems to me a cool object to loan to the PCs. Especially if "Sparky" or whatever we call it is sentient and encourages all wielders to greater work to good and judge the wicked from the righteous and react accordingly. >Y'know, I think Dom gets too much grief over that. Over the course of THOUSANDS of years, he's had his >verdict overruled ONCE. Uriel doesn't count, because God intervened -before- the verdict was rendered. >Once in howevermanyyearssincetheFall is a freaking -sterling- record Yes indeed. I believe DOminic's doing a fine job save perhaps overly harsh on dissonant angels. Though you need to be tough. I'm reffering to say that God will intervene next time if he does make a mistake...and blow something out of proportion-Michael in my game DID start the Cult of Mithras and was guilty on everything Dominic said regarding heraldry, hunting trophies (offending Jordi), and even quiet support of gladiator fighting (which really cheesed Dominic off as it was murder in his opionion-and most civilized angels) Yet God still fixed him. Less so I think next time. >As per the back cover and alla that. Yep. I love quoting! :-) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:52:45 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Angelic Bible Hey guys. The discussion of how Laurence views the Bible has led to an interesting scenario in my campaign with my seraph (Isaiah-one the oldest angels whose gotton rather sick of heavenly politics and truth be told would now rather be a human) wishing to possess an "angelic bible". Basically as a serpah one that was either more accurate or less contradictory. Maybe have missing books or letters on the matter as well (covering the Fall, The Ethereal Marches being discovered, the creation of the angels-the usual stuff players might be interested in) Thinking about this, having a Bible (Yves edition) makes a certain ammount of sense. However despite some vague ideas above I'm not sure what it would look like, what information it would contain, and how up to date the book would be. I'm even wondering if it would have background info (mentioning Isaiah and the other angels comming to Babel to mess it up good for instance-an incident he's not proud of). I'd really appreciate somethoughts in this as it might prove very interesting for future games. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:53:46 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Fat Charlie and the Librarian GOOD JOB! I like em both! I'll have to use em too. :-) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:07:17 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Ripper Jack Y'know I've been working up something for my own campaign about our good friend Jack, but I decided not to make him a demon. Like was said in the GMG, I think it says more about humanity and realism if you make some of the most horrible crimes commited by humans. Still, I said that Jack eventually became a Soldier of Death and was mummified when he died of old age (which is why no one ever found a body of any kind). Currently he goes by the more modern name of Ripper Jack and is hunted by every exorcist in England. My campaign takes place in London, so it works well with what I already have going on. I've dropped hints of Jack but nothing else yet. I'm interested in your Shedim concept though, which seems like it could work quite nicely. For my undead Jack, I said he had 7 forces when he died (being an exceptional human) and now had 8 as a mummy. I gave him Claws (Numinous Corpus), most of the Death attunements I thought made sense, and even had Saminga make him a Captain of the Infernal Legion for inspiring so many other serial killers. Besides that. he's got a bunch of Songs that aided in his escape from mortal and Celestial forces of Justice. Now that I think about it, he might have some attunements from Beleth too for his work in creating fear and Nightmares. Like I said, I haven't really used him yet, so he's not finalized. Hope that's of some use. Later, Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:10:54 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> The Morningstar In a message dated 6/6/00 9:54:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com writes: << 1:) The Sun Lucifer's greatest creation-the Morning star which united the Celestial world with the Symphony and gives them all their essence every morning. >> Not to be picky, but the Sun isn't the Morning-star. That's Venus. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:23:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... At 10:12 AM -0500 6/7/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Because Derek wrote it that way -- I just codified the blessed >> things. > >At least I know who to blame now. And didn't even stick faithfully to what _he_ wrote. There are instances in the main book of "a Shedim." At least little thigs like that _can_ be fixed in a mere reprint. ackwigglebaby! - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:27:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dominic and Destiny At 12:18 PM -0400 6/7/00, Charles Phipps wrote: [...] >Though as one might guess by Michael's lack of Faith in the old codger that >some people are none too optimistic Yves has any clue what's going on in >today's world due to the demons. i'd have to check S1, but I think one reason ismore along the lines of "the old guy's got access to all the demonuc plots written in his Library, right? _Why doesn'teh show tgenm to us????_" Not to mention the AaGabriel incident. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:10:55 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Jack the Ripper True while most people prefer to keep angelic involvement strictly behind the scenes and most famous people completely human. It strikes me that a few are worthy of conversion...especially given the Shedim can touch each of our lives and we might never actually know about it until it's too late. Matthew Philip Walsh wrote: >Definitely a possibility. On the other hand, while Saminga certainly >*approves* of serial killers, he'd probably consider them a little >inefficient. I mean, really, one at a time? True on that end but one has to consider which Saminga approves of more. A man going into the local post office with a machine gun and blowing away sixteen folk or the "Son of Sam" killings (who may or may not be the same Shedim) in New York which caused an entire city to quake in fear of Death as he said he would "Strike again". >(That last one scares me the most, come to think of it. If the demon in >question was going on a comeback tour... how can you top that, especially >in this day and age when such things are more commonplace? How far would >such a Shedite go?) Hmmmm the Nybblas argument is very tempting especially since I've just had the players meet a souless (the Malakim detected nothing selfless inside the man whatsoever or any potential to change) reporter who might make a good "final confrontation" body in the past given the man would be child's play to possess. However to answer your question I think: As far as necessary....remember... "Tiiiimmmmeeeee iss onnnn myyyy sidee, yes it is." My other option was having it be a Shedim recently leaving India on a steamboat (he possesed a crewman) to avoid Laurence's crackdown on the Thugee which he was a part of in a joint Saminga/Kali venture to keep people terrified of the old ways in britain occupied India. The poetry kinduv fits with a "sophisticated" demon from there. Tafka J wrote: >Most of History's Infamous have been mortal humans. Some of them are >_so_ bad, that they squick even the Shedim of Cruelty (perhaps the most >vile of demons). True but this will be this patricular brand of players first encounter opposing a Shedim. There's something also to be said about the "It could be anyone" aspect of the Shedim who frankly doesn't fear to be caught. Jack the Ripper's murders were after all "copycatted" in the New York area not too long after this. As for scaring Shedim I think that's mainly humanity's ability to divorce them totally from all ethics and abilities-Even shedim I think ultimately owe loyalty to their cause (it's their natures) but humans owe it to nothing sometimes. Some Shedim may even admire that. I'll consider the undead angle in any case However I was wondering how people would put his stats in the 20th century or any distinction he might have by now. Did this impress the higher ups? Or recklessly insane? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:25:10 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: IN> City Regions Aloha folks, I'm having a tough time here. I'm working on a write-up of IN:Houston, but have run into some real problems when it comes to separating the city into regions. So far the only two instances of regioned cities that I've seen have been Austin (in Revelations I) and Las Angeles (in Revelations IV). Anybody here ever division a city out, and any good tips/rules of thumb to keep in mind? I have some ideas on what I want to do, but I've got this niggling feeling that I'm making too many divisions in the city. Thanks in advance. - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of Kronos (transferring to Asmodeus) - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:29:00 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Changing Names Milton, the IPG, and most other sources agree that demons change their names after they've fallen, but what about fallen Superiors? Did the current Demon Princes go by different names before they fell? If not, why not? If so, what would they be? Sure you could do something cheesy and say there was Andreal, Asmodiel, Baaliel, etc. and many Superiors were never angels (Vapula, Haagenti, Lilith, Kronos), but that doesn't account for everybody. Thoughts? Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:50:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Angelic Bible This should probably be what's called a "variorum" edition, showing all the different variations a text has gone through. Being a seraph's-dream-come-true, it should also be like one of those red-letter New Testaments, where all the direct quotes from Christ are in red, but in this case, all the text in (say) gold really WAS written by a prophet under inspiration. Thus, such a Bible would include, say, the J, E, P, D, and R source texts for the Pentateuch, in the original versions, as well as the final redacted version (and any intermediate stages), and clear indications on whether the redaction was done under inspiration. You'd have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Isaiah as separate books as well as the final one, at least one chronicle of Israel that is referred to by the surviving ones but is now lost, and any other lost prophetic works. You'd have clear indication whether the poetical books were written under inspiration or are just great literature. You'd have the letters Paul mentions having written, which are now lost, and any lost letters from the other apostles, with inspiration-markers. You'd have the original full text of Mark and, if it exists, the Q source of the gospels. And you'd have some kind of cross-referencing to make it clear who borrowed from whom in the composition of the synoptic gospels. While we're at it, it'd be nice to know who the real authors were. Who DID write Hebrews? And 1st and 2nd Timothy? Etc. And you'd probably have interesting additions like Aziraphael's addition to Genesis (quoted from memory): "And the Lord said unto the angel at the gate of the garden, Where is the flaming sword that I gave unto you? And the angel said, Well now, where could it have got to? I had it here a moment ago. Be forgetting my own head next. And the Lord did not ask him again." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:59:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Angelic Bible 'Course, even all the lost stuff and inspiration markers would still leave unanswered questions. E.g.: +++++++ The Twenty-Eighth Lost Letter of James the Less flour lentils olive oil marjoram pick up laundry +++++++ And it was inspired. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:24:09 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Word rom Our Sponsors... From: "Casca" > On Tue, 06 June 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > > Balseraph Balseraphs Liar(s), Serpent(s) > > This never made any sense to me. Why isn't it Balseraphim, to make it > consistent with Seraph/Seraphim? Each Balseraph has its own personal symphony, whereas the Seraphim share one. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:16:49 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Jack the Ripper In an INS/MV campaign, Jack the Ripper shows up. He _is_ an Ethereal (well, their equivalent, a being of Dream) whose March (a March, the Marches) only loosely and infrequently connects with Earth. He's currently managing to reach Earth because a particular author is working on a new book about Jack the Ripper, and this author's dreams are providing a convenient channel to the vicinity in which the author lives and works. Jack is literally materialising out of dreams, killing, and then retreating back into the Marches. If any PC tries chasing him, he may end up being pulled into Jack's "domain" -- a place of endless foggy roads and dark high buildings -- until Jack leaves it to kill again. The best way for the PCs to solve the problem in the scenario, once they have identified the problem, is to get help from a high-level angel of Dreams, or Blandine herself, to block the connection in the author's dreams. Of course, it may take a while to find out what's going on, and Jack keeps on killing . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:49:43 +1000 From: condition@subdimension.com Subject: Re: IN> Human to Demon At 16:02 6/06/00 -0500, Earl wrote: >This brings up the nice question of what constitutes identity. >Suppose a Prince could re-configure the Forces of a damned soul >into an imp, say, without loss of memory or skills. It could >still be roleplayed as no longer the same being, but a sort of >horrible, baffling *heir* of the original being. This has lead me an interesting idea for my game. I understand that in stripping a soul and putting it onto a demon there would be some memory loss involved. So say a certain Demon Prince maybe Kobal found himself in the possession of a rather humourously evil soul.... He strips it down - tinkers here tinkers there. And puts it back down on earth... It's a demon but he fails to tell it that... The then said demon wakes up (bad hangover) and attempts to go on with its life not remembering it had died nor that it is no longer a soul. All that's left is to sit back take out the popcorn and watch as hopefully chaos abounds. I think there may be flaws in my plan, but I can't see them yet. - - Condition ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:06:56 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: IN> About Michael and Command of the Host... YMMV, this is my own take on things, and has been brewing in the back of my brain since the "Michael and His Job" thread back in late March and early April. Michael didn't leave his post as Commander of the Hosts of Heaven because He wanted to; He left because He had to. As both of the Michael write-ups we have seen have made clear, Michael, before becoming the AA of War, was a Competitor and a Challenger. He put His Truth to the test every time He faced another, and His Truth was vindicated when He won. Michael was the living embodiment of the Arthurian ideal of "Right makes Might". So what happened to Him when Dominic declared Him wrong, guilty of sins, and God Himself said "Yes, but He is too valuable for Me to allow Him to be punished or removed from The War"? If Right makes Might, which He clearly believed, then Wrong makes for Weakness. And staying on in the position of War-leader of Heaven and Commander of Hosts while weakened by the pseudo-dissonance of His wrongness would have been a betrayal of the Most High and all of His Servants, and Michael has *never* been disloyal to God. "He was secure in his knowledge of God and of the Truth: Lucifer did not even try approaching him, as he approached so many others. [paragraph break] He did not foresee the Fall: it came as a shock to him that others could turn away from God's Truth, and be so blatantly [italics/] wrong [/italics]." [From Sup. 1, pg. 107]. So what is a weak but loyal Commander supposed to do? Michael did the only thing that resonated with His Truth: He stepped aside so another non-weakened Commander could be appointed and continue the strong leadership of The Host. Time and many victories in combat of mind and of arms has healed over the wounds of Michael's Wrongs, and He has learned to add Judiciousness and Humility to the arsenal of talents, skills, and powers that He now brings to any contest, any Trial of Truths; His Pride and Strength have been tempered, making Michael the living weapon a more fearsome weapon than nearly any in existence, save only the Word and Will of God. And if Laurence should be destroyed on the field of battle, don't [IMG] expect to see Uriel returned from the Highest Heavens to take up the Mantle of Leadership for the Heavenly Host; rather, expect to see the Mantle returned to the shoulders of The First Angel. Apologies for the capitalizations, it's just how I see Michael -- never he or his, but He or His etc... Hope this gives another perspective to those who think Michael, in retiring as Commander, was acting like a whiney baby throwing a temper tantrum. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven and Michael Fanboy. - -- "We are not always what we seem, and hardly ever what we dream." -Schmendrick Peter S. Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:10:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> The Angelic Bible On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Charles Phipps wrote: > Thinking about this, having a Bible (Yves edition) makes a certain ammount > of sense. However despite some vague ideas above I'm not sure what it would > look like, what information it would contain, and how up to date the book > would be. I'm even wondering if it would have background info (mentioning > Isaiah and the other angels comming to Babel to mess it up good for > instance-an incident he's not proud of). > > I'd really appreciate somethoughts in this as it might prove very > interesting for future games. It could be the Sephir Raziel (Book of Raziel or Book of the Angel Raziel). In some Jewish lore/mythology (I don't remember where exactly; my reading habits are eclectic and prolific), it's mentioned as the book God used to teach Adam and Ever from in the Garden of Eden. I think it was also the book Enoch read on one of his many trips into Heaven. Essentially, it's an ur-text which contains the *true* story of creation, the War in Heaven, and so forth. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:15:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Changing Names On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > Milton, the IPG, and most other sources agree that demons change their names > after they've fallen, but what about fallen Superiors? Did the current Demon > Princes go by different names before they fell? If not, why not? If so, > what would they be? Sure you could do something cheesy and say there was > Andreal, Asmodiel, Baaliel, etc. and many Superiors were never angels > (Vapula, Haagenti, Lilith, Kronos), but that doesn't account for everybody. I don't know about the others, but Baal could have been named El before he Fell (assuming he changed his name). It's based on some historical/biblical trivia: when the priests of Baal were dominate in Israel, -baal (meaning something like "master" or "king" was a common suffix for Hebrew names. When the priests of YHVH regained power (as dramatized in the story of Elijah), the -baal suffix was changed to -el (making their names "of God" instead of "of Baal" or "of the master/king"). Baal could easily have done this in reverse, as a sign of his rejection of God and the Symphony in favor of his own personal one. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:31:51 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Changing Names I'd say most of the DPs changed their names when they fell (I seriously doubt, for instance, that Belial, who's name means "reviled" (or something similiar), was called that before he became a demon). Others might not have. I can't recall the meanings of most names (in fact, the only one I can remember is Baal = "Lord"). Asmodeus, Belial, Beleth, Kobal, Andrealphus, possibly Valefor (for the record, I believe his name before becoming a DP was Oannes, but that's just me), Malphas, Magog (which is, I suspect, his original name) and Mammon are our currently living fallen angel DPs (I suspose if you wanna get technical Vephar, Beelzebub and possibly a whole bunch of others could fall in here too). Oh, and Alaemon. But good luck finding an original name there (Litheroy might, *might*, have think he knows, but he could be wrong). On a related topic, is there any canon on the original Words of the DPs? (other than Andrealphus and Kobal, anyways...) Cheers, Ryan "I am Jack's Medula Oblongata" -Fight Club ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1665 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.