From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 13 02:02:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04885 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 02:02:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id BAA23464 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:58:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:58:08 -0500 Message-Id: <200006130658.BAA23464@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1673 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1673 In this digest: Re: IN> Rewards by Superiors IN> Mmmm... Essence. Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. IN> Re: Munchin Rule of Thumb IN> Re: Munchin Rule of Thumb Re: IN> Theurgy Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. Re: IN> Theurgy IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1672 Re: IN> Welcome to Fat Charlie's! Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1672 IN> Grigori/Children of the Grigori stuff Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. IN> Things my friends send me... [On Topic, Apropos of Nothing, Mildly Tastless] Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems Re: IN> Things my friends send me... [On Topic, Apropos of Nothing, Mildly Tastless] IN> Re: Theurgy Re: IN> Theurgy Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1672 Re: IN> Grigori/Children of the Grigori stuff Re: IN> Re: Theurgy IN> Rewards by Superiors Re: IN> Rewards by Superiors IN> Punishment for Killing a Human Re: IN> Re: Theurgy Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems Re: IN> Re: Theurgy Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems IN> IN Rant - Addendum ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:40:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Rewards by Superiors At 10:03 PM -0500 6/11/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Charles Phipps wrote: >> On a more extensive game note (so this just isn't helping my campaign) I was >> cuirous what people thought was the kind of achievement that meritted a >> personal reward from one's superiors-[...] > >I guess this would be a good time to plug the Game Master's Guide, which >has an entire section on how Superiors reward (and punish) their >Servitors. IOW, exactly what you're looking for. :) Further, the Superiors books often have suggestions for special types of rewards and punishments that differ from the GMG norm. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:39:52 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: IN> Mmmm... Essence. Here's a quickie question: Do Humans inhabited by Kyriotates or Shedim still regain their Essence at noon? - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of The Game - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:41:54 EDT From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net Subject: Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > > Here's a quickie question:  Do Humans inhabited by Kyriotates or Shedim > still regain their Essence at noon? > Sure. But since that Essence is not usable by the Kyriotate or Shedite who's possessing the body, it doesn't matter. Pat, the Newbie GM P.S. If I'm wrong about this, I trust the Powers That Be to correct me. - -- - ---------- Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:02:49 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. > Return-Path: AngelPatriel@netscape.net > > Here's a quickie question:  Do Humans inhabited by Kyriotates or Shedim > > still regain their Essence at noon? > > Sure. But since that Essence is not usable by the Kyriotate or Shedite > who's possessing the body, it doesn't matter. ... But it does matter to the possessee, not a lot to the possessor. The victim of the Shedite can use it to resist the Shedite's corruption, at the least. Further, when the human is no longer under the control of the Celestial, it will affect how much Essence they posses then. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:41:50 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. At 9:39 -0400 6/12/00, Erich S. Arendall wrote: >Here's a quickie question: Do Humans inhabited by Kyriotates or Shedim >still regain their Essence at noon? I would assume so; otherwise a Kyrio could prevent a demon from regaining Essence by possessing it at sunset, as well. And anyone could do the same trick using the Song of Possession. But the *human* gets the Essence. For Kyrio-possession (and Shedim of Malphas), the human is effectively in the Marches at the time. For Shedim, I'd say the human host gets the Essence normally (like all host Essence, it's not accessible to a possessor), but isn't likely to use it, since the Shedite is actually in control, and the human generally doesn't get any actions. The one exception, as someone else pointed out, is when resisting the Corrupter's control. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:42:41 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Munchin Rule of Thumb I'd also like to add that if you're getting to the point where your charcters are planning on killing Superiors, one or two things are obvious. Either: A) Your characters are completely insane. or B) You've really stopped playing In Nomine and moved on to something else entirely. IN is about everything that is ineffable in the world. Killing the embodiments of universal forces ain't the point. Stuff like that was intentionally *not* included from the game because it's *not* part of the game. or C) You're really a Calabite aren't you. I can tell. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:44:16 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Munchin Rule of Thumb I'd also like to add that if you're getting to the point where your charcters are planning on killing Superiors, one or two things are obvious. Either: A) Your characters are completely insane. or B) You've really stopped playing In Nomine and moved on to something else entirely. IN is about everything that is ineffable in the world. Killing the embodiments of universal forces ain't the point. Stuff like that was intentionally *not* included from the game because it's *not* part of the game. or C) You're really a Calabite aren't you. I can tell. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:48:21 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Theurgy At 20:21 -0400 6/12/00, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >(You know, an all-Saints game could be fun. Heroes, poets and spies of the ages, >fighting the forces of the Hellsworn through the ages, and into the present day... >there's definitely a campaign in that...) That's a wonderful idea, though as I player I'd shudder at the thought of the necessary research to get into the right mindset to play a historical character with any accuracy. (You can probably tell I don't GM historical games much, either. At least ones with well-known historical characters as major NPCs.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:55:59 EDT From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net Subject: Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > ... But it does matter to the possessee, not a lot to the possessor.  The > victim of the Shedite can use it to resist the Shedite's corruption, at the > least.  Further, when the human is no longer under the control of the > Celestial, it will affect how much Essence they posses then. > You're right of course. I hadn't thought it that far through. In general, though, I don't pay that much attention to that kind of detail. Human's have essence, and that's a number I as a GM would make up as needed. But a human PC who has been possessed would certainly be concerned about their Essence total, so it does matter. Pat - -- - ---------- Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:15:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. At 1:39 PM +0000 6/12/00, Erich S. Arendall wrote: >Here's a quickie question: Do Humans inhabited by Kyriotates or Shedim >still regain their Essence at noon? Shedim, definitely. _Their_ Essence. The Shedite has no access to it. Kyrios... Hmn. Probably, yes -- the human is ie Marches for the duration, not Limbo. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:05:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Theurgy Walter Milliken wrote: > That's a wonderful idea, though as I player I'd shudder at the thought of the> necessary research to get into the right mindset to play a historical> character with any accuracy. (You can probably tell I don't GM historical> games much, either. At least ones with well-known historical characters as> major NPCs.) I, on the other hand, would love to do that. But that's probably because I've been running an online Highlander game for over 5 years now. http://www.amadan.org/HDR/HDR.html - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:00:11 -0400 From: "Thorne" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1672 I've heard a rumor that the Children of The Gregori will be playable in GURPS In Nomine . . .when should the In Nomine system have these stats? Anyone know? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:03:49 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Welcome to Fat Charlie's! > Very nice! I especially like this line: >"I'd seen him come over the top of the bar like an avalanche in an >apron." Thanks. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:27:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1672 At 1:00 PM -0400 6/12/00, Thorne wrote: >I've heard a rumor that the Children of The Gregori will be playable in >GURPS In Nomine . . .when should the In Nomine system have these stats? >Anyone know? Short answer: no. O:< Long answer/l too complicated to get into while restricted to 1-handed typing because the baby is sleeping opn my other hand. Frivolous answr: _should_ have had them a while back, but Infernal Interventions... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:35:18 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Grigori/Children of the Grigori stuff At 1:27 PM -0400 6/12/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 1:00 PM -0400 6/12/00, Thorne wrote: > >I've heard a rumor that the Children of The Gregori will be playable in > >GURPS In Nomine . . .when should the In Nomine system have these stats? > >Anyone know? > >Short answer: no. O:< > >Long answer/l too complicated to get into while restricted to 1-handed >typing because the baby is sleeping opn my other hand. > >Frivolous answr: _should_ have had them a while back, but Infernal >Interventions... All right. Here's semi-dangerous ground to tread, I think, but perhaps worth saying. When GURPS In Nomine comes out, and with it comes stats on the Grigori and their Descendents, is it kosher for a writer who's unconnected to any official/Canon Grigori projects to "reverse-engineer" unofficial game statistics for IN proper and send them to the list? Since there will be no official Grigori stats/info in the line for who knows how long? Alternately, could a Pyramid Article be published with them? - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:35:17 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Mmmm... Essence. >Sure. But since that Essence is not usable by the Kyriotate or Shedite >who's possessing the body, it doesn't matter. Well if the Shedite has the Song of Symbiosis it matters. It also matters to the human when the Corruptor or Domination leaves! :) - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of The Game - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:09:45 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: IN> Things my friends send me... [On Topic, Apropos of Nothing, Mildly Tastless] From one of the mailing lists I'm on: Demetria writes: >when i play in nomine, i wanna be Malathion, Demon Prince of Birth Defects. *groan* Like Whattheiel, Angel of Resignation, I imagine. yours, Jason * * * * * "I'm addicted to stress that's the way that I get things done if I'm not underpressure then I sleep too long and I hang around like a bum and I think I'm going nowhere and that makes me nervous..." Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:16:34 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems I suggest that you invite your friend to run an In Nomine game. You should play in it. Agree to try whatever he suggestions -- don't even disagree with him. Here's what you should do: > Big Problem 1 - Word Forces suck. There should be no such mechanic. Ask if you can play a Word-Bound celestial. Pick a medium-level word -- one that should give you a significant advantage over other celestials. After the third or fourth time you get clobbered into pulp, despite dozens of references in the books that suggest you shouldn't, one of two things will occur. Either your friend will say, "Oh, wow, I guess Word Forces make sense." Or he'll suggest something you guys think is cooler to make your Word-Bound angel a little more than a feathered boa with a neat name. > Big Problem 2 - Major Inconsistencies - Too many changes to things. > Canon is just too fluid and the feel of the game is suffering for it. > Sometimes it's too light, and sometimes it's just plain bland, and there is > no consistency of character to the major powers. New writeups are good, but > Big Problem 5 - The setting is just way too light. Darken it. A lot. Since your friend is running it, he can adjust this at a whim. The major players in the In Nomine universe are well-detailed but easy to tailor to your own game, and if you pick up the Game Master's Guide, it lists each Superior, one by one, and two paragraphs underneath them -- one telling you how to lighten them, and another telling you how to darken them. Each of the expanded write-ups also variations on how to portray the Superiors to suit your own needs.. Tell your friend about them -- I am assuming he hasn't heard of them -- and let him have a field day. > Big Problem 3 - Archangels and Demon Princes should not be Gods. The > very idea of beings of such huge power existing is disturbing. The idea Again, let your friend assign statistics to them. Then get a few Celestial Shackles, jump Baal with a few dozen Malakim loaned to you by a friend, and wax him into the dirt. Rinse, repeat. After a few Superiors are knocked off in this fashion, the hint may be driven home. Either that or a suitable alternative will be provided by your friend that makes Superiors "one of the guys", but still extra-formidable and not beings that can be lightly attacked. > Big Problem 4 - The basic mechanic is far to simplistic and doesn't > allow for any form of realistic control. It's just too wild to be used at > all. A CD of 6 is huge, and you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting it. Just > too wild. Reign it in somehow. Or better yet, dump it and do something > better. Duuuuude. The coolest games I run have so many wild occurances that would never have occured without the wild check digit. Angels barely hanging onto the backs of cars, Malakim leaping onto moving trains and getting pulled under, Calabim getting blown to kingdom come by a lucky roll and a small vial of chemicals... the check digit is what makes the game cinematic. The chance for wild success or spectacular failure is a part of what makes In Nomine tick. Cosmic warfare is all about wild success or spectacular failure. But let your friend replace it. Buy him GURPS In Nomine and beg him to run a game. Voila! In Nomine + Realistic Control + Reigned in. > Big Problem 6 - Just what is the point of humans in a game where they > can go squish at any time an angel or demon really wants them to, > disturbance be damned? Let your friend run the game, and start wiping humans out whenever you feel like it. Either he'll say, "Yep, humans don't matter," or he'll provide a reason why they do. I'll be surprised if he doesn't arrive at the same conclusion David Edelstein and others have. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:47:24 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Things my friends send me... [On Topic, Apropos of Nothing, Mildly Tastless] >>when i play in nomine, i wanna be Malathion, Demon Prince of Birth Defects. > >Like Whattheiel, Angel of Resignation, I imagine. In one of my D&D games, I created the Greek god of masculinity. Pronounced "test-ih-clees". For those of you who know ancient Greek, I unearthed the verb `eliphaino, meaning "I have no idea." For those of you who don't know ancient Greek, I'll just mention that the ` is a voiced breath, similar to the initial sound in "How 'bout those Dodgers!" - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Theurgy When this came up on the Pyramid board, I suggested that, instead of opening up the whole can o'worms on whether sorcerors can summon or even get the attention of angels, you instead use a Song. I even wrote up a possible example (alas, I wasn't being too serious, so I didn't save it*): The Corporeal Song of Yelping, (so that any Symphonically Aware humans could use it). Basically, it's just a big old inarticulate scream for help that any celestial within a few miles can hear: you can tell from the Song the general location of the Singer, what side the bugger's serving, and Cherubim and Shedim got plusses on their resonance rolls for that Singer only. No violations of canon, and it pretty much does the same thing as Summon Angel. Of course, you'll get demonic interest as well as angelic (or vice versa), but that just makes the game fun, right? Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Marginally Useful Things. *I suppose that I should scroll through 1100+ posts to find it, unless somebody happened to say, "Neat!" and already did... ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:10:19 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Theurgy > Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > I think he means the latter -- at least, that's what the CPG lists as > > Theurgy, and implies it's just a myth (but who can say for sure?) [snip] > Of course, it's still something that sorcerers could _try_to do. And maybe some > clever human will come up with something that can affect any Celestial. But I > certainly see why it was never allowed into canon. But it does make for a *great* rumor, and the sort of rumor that is virtually guarantied to bring both Angels AND Demons running; the Angels to stop the human from spreading such knowledge and possibly giving the Infernal Hordes a sure-fire way to ambush Angels one at a time [as GM, I would be strongly inclined to rule that helping to summon, bind and destroy an Angel is enough to Damn a mortal sorceror's soul to Hell, even if he was self-initiated and not Hellsworn]. The Demons would come running just to be able to do just that -- summon, bind, and destroy Angels while Damning a human sorceror's soul to Hell. Ethereals and their Soldiers would be all over the sorceror so they could learn the trick of Theurgy and use it to payback Beleth's Demons for their *kind hospitality*, and give the Angels a taste of what it was like to be on the receiving end of Uriel's Purge. And to help balance things and give the poor sorceror who is caught in a 26-way crossfire a fighting chance, I would make Theurgy usable only by mortals, no ethereals or celestials need apply. Plot seed: A self-initiated non-Hellsworn sorceror has managed to summon an Angel. He must be stopped before this knowledge can be spread or fall into Infernal hands. Players [I run Angels and mortals only games, Demons need not apply] must do just that. Complications: A Hellsworn apprentice and the Demons sent to bring him to Hell for interrogation, thus insuring that the information does fall into Infernal hands. Meanwhile, Ethereals, examining the Sorceror's Far Marches dreamscape [he is a lucid dreamer] are also on the trail of this knowledge, possibly working through the mortal's dreams. And the Angels also keep bumping elbows with others, who turn out to be a Judgement triad sent to make sure they obey orders and to take over if the PCs should be destroyed or traumatized. And one of the greatest complications of all -- the sorceror has been killed by his apprentice, who now has the knowledge and is "running for the border" as fast as he can. And the Sorceror has become a dream shade, who can be summoned, bound, and commanded by other Theurgist-wannabe Sorcerors. He must now be found and either destroyed or redeemed to Heaven, again before the knowledge can be taken from him and passed on to Hell. And did I mention that the apprentice is using the blood and body of his now-dead master to summon a Baron or Prince and barter his knowledge for safety and creature comforts? I didn't? Then you can image the shock my angels are in for, someday... [insert Evil Maniacal GM Laughing]. [massive snip] > (You know, an all-Saints game could be fun. Heroes, poets and spies of the ages, > fighting the forces of the Hellsworn through the ages, and into the present day... > there's definitely a campaign in that...) November 1st, All Saints Day, and the legends are true: Heaven opens its Pearly Gates, and all the Saints have a day off back home on Earth, following the special interest and hobbies they pursued on Earth before they died [the first time]. Only this time, Hell is waiting for them. For several decades, Hell has been following and documenting where and what interests the Saints. The time has now come, and Baal has given the orders: capture or eternally destroy the Saints of Glory! Players are the Saints, from a family with a history of producing Soldiers who go on to become Saints [in the IN sense of the word, not the RC Church's definition of Saints] after their first deaths. They have returned to the ancestral home, where, unbeknownst to them, one of Baal's war parties has been stationed. The Demons must be careful not to make too much Disturbance, lest they attract Divine attention, causing an ArchAngel to send Angels to reinforce the Saints, which would tip the balance of power in Heaven's favor. The Saints don't know this, nor do they realize until too late that someone has set-up a very strong Celestial Song of Shields all around the house. How far out from the house it extends is GM-only knowledge, likewise its endurance. If the Saints can hold out long enough, the Song will expire and all the Song disturbances, combined with Mortal vs. Demon Disturbance, will bring help on the run. Likewise, help will quickly arrive if they take the fight [and Disturbance] beyond the boundaries of the Shield. First help will be in the form of the Cherub who watches this family [among several] for signs of new Soldiers. More help will arrive shortly, with the Shield no longer stopping Celestial Songs of Tongues from summoning help. Of course, all the noise [once the Shield is down] is just as likely to attract Infernal attention as Divine. The war party is made up of one 7 Force fully-fledged demon per player, a 9 Forcer in command, and an 8 Force second-in-command. In a straight up physical brawl, the war-party should win quite handily, but the margin is slim enough that _any_ Heavenly assistance greater than a reliever will turn the tide in the party's favor, if they can stall long enough. Thoughts, suggestions? Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "We are not always what we seem, and hardly ever what we dream." -Schmendrick Peter S. Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:03:05 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1672 At 13:00 -0400 6/12/00, Thorne wrote: >I've heard a rumor that the Children of The Gregori will be playable in >GURPS In Nomine This is not a rumor, it's true. But it's only the bare essentials of the game mechanics; there's no more background on them than is in the main IN book, really. > . . .when should the In Nomine system have these stats? >Anyone know? Well, in theory, you can convert the GURPS mechanics back to In Nomine and do it -- there's really not a lot to them, and conversion should be straightforward. The background material on them (and the Grigori) is still mostly missing in either system, though, so playing one may run into "revealed canon" problems later. This is less a problem with the Children than it is for the Grigori themselves, though -- Children generally don't know their own origins, they're just humans with unusual powers, as far as they know. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:14:17 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Grigori/Children of the Grigori stuff At 13:35 -0400 6/12/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >When GURPS In Nomine comes out, and with it comes stats on the >Grigori and their Descendents, is it kosher for a writer who's >unconnected to any official/Canon Grigori projects to >"reverse-engineer" unofficial game statistics for IN proper and send >them to the list? Since there will be no official Grigori stats/info >in the line for who knows how long? If this is permissible (and I don't know whether it would be), it may be possible to simply have the official stats available in IN terms, maybe off the IN web site, in the FAQ or something. Whether it's permitted would be an SJ call. But I suspect he'd prefer the material to be "official", if it's OK. The new GURPS IN material on the Children (beyond what's in the IN main book and a little bit in the CPG) amounts to maybe two paragraphs, mostly dense GURPS game mechanics. The new material on the Grigori is a little longer -- maybe a half-page, and includes resonance/dissonance mechanics for both them and the Fallen Grigori. Converting either segment back to IN is close to trivial. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:15:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Theurgy At 1:17 PM -0700 6/12/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >When this came up on the Pyramid board, I suggested >that, instead of opening up the whole can o'worms on >whether sorcerors can summon or even get the attention >of angels, you instead use a Song. I even wrote up a >possible example (alas, I wasn't being too serious, so >I didn't save it*): Archangel of Archives to the rescue! Well, the _summoning_ of angels (that is, you call and they come, like it or not) by humans is widely considered to be impossible by normal means. And deeply, deeply unwise even if you could, which you can't, so don't try. :) OTOH, you could handle this neatly with the Song of Yelping. What is the Song of Yelping, I hear you ask? I'm glad you did. Yelping This Song seems to be closely related to the Song of Thunder. It is considered a Corporeal Song for play purposes. When activated, the Song transmits a loud, penetrating call for aid that can only be heard by those with Symphonic awareness. The hearer will know the location of the Yelper within a half-block or so: Cherubim and Shedim have a +2 to attune to the Yelper. The hearer, if he or she makes a Perception roll, will also get a general idea whether the user serves good or evil (_not_ Heaven or Hell). Essence: 2 Range: Essence spent, in miles Disturbance: (2X Essence spent) + user's total Forces See? no fuss, no muss ... and not as much of an excuse for certain AAs to wig out over angels being compelled to do stuff. After all, you don't have to actually _respond_... ;) The Corporeal Song of Yelping, >(so that any Symphonically Aware humans could use it). > > >Basically, it's just a big old inarticulate scream for >help that any celestial within a few miles can hear: >you can tell from the Song the general location of the >Singer, what side the bugger's serving, and Cherubim >and Shedim got plusses on their resonance rolls for >that Singer only. No violations of canon, and it >pretty much does the same thing as Summon Angel. > >Of course, you'll get demonic interest as well as >angelic (or vice versa), but that just makes the game >fun, right? > >Morgan (FAW) >Kyriotate of Destiny >Petitioner for the Word of Marginally Useful Things. > >*I suppose that I should scroll through 1100+ posts to >find it, unless somebody happened to say, "Neat!" and >already did... ;) > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! >http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:55:12 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Rewards by Superiors >I guess this would be a good time to plug the Game Master's Guide, which >has an entire section on how Superiors reward (and punish) their >Servitors. IOW, exactly what you're looking for. :) Thanks o' wonderful designer type man. I'm honored. I really will have to find that book (sadly I have to do all my shopping online as none of the stores for a hundred miles carry In Nomine that I know of). However truth be told I was hoping to get people's opinions of how they run the various Archangels and rewards....plus maybe some "shop talk" about running a game where you do fantastic deeds for angels (that's what they're there for-though no doubt quite a few fun "touched by an angel" games exist where the only miracle is the salvation of a single soul)...one wonders how to keep the gushing praise and rites from da bosses down. Thanks again. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:21:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Rewards by Superiors At 7:55 PM -0400 6/12/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>I guess this would be a good time to plug the Game Master's Guide, which >>has an entire section on how Superiors reward (and punish) their >>Servitors. IOW, exactly what you're looking for. :) > >Thanks o' wonderful designer type man. I'm honored. I really will have to >find that book (sadly I have to do all my shopping online as none of the >stores for a hundred miles carry In Nomine that I know of). Two cures for that: 1 - get your FLGS (Friendly Local Gaming Store) to special order the material. Keep doing this till you get them trained to order one of everything. O:> 2 - www.warehouse23.com . Nuff said. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:42:45 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human This is something that I thought I'd bring up in my opinion that people find oddly strange (that I've mentioned it to who play In Nomine) but some like it allot. Basically in my opinion killing a human being is no small matter to the forces of Heaven (in my opinion no one really gives a **** in Hell so to speak)... Basically in my opinion Dominic finds it about as high on the "high crimes" and misdemeanors as one can get. Thou Shall Not Kill being part of the Big 10 so to speak....Respecting ones mother and father is about disobeying Superiors naturally to him. I mean sure Dominic will understand killing a Soldier of Hell in self defense and will probably even let it slide without a review (or at least calling him up for it) but far better for soldiers of Hell to *not* be killed and instead be punished by mortal authorties and thus have a chance to seek their own form of redemption before they die. Rather pratical from a strict point of review. However I think anyone who kills someone from Heaven who is a soldier of hell NOT in self defense is likely to get a strict review and try to get them punished by their superiors (200 years scrubbing Dominic's manor for instance). Killing humans unrelated directly to the war has got to be a quick line to your removal from the field completely. Khalid (whose got a bad rap) was about to fall so I doubt he's still keeping the rite of atheist killing. Your thoughts at this rule? What a good punishment from D is? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:11:07 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: Theurgy - --On Mon, Jun 12, 2000 13:17 -0700 Maurice Lane wrote: > > Of course, you'll get demonic interest as well as > angelic (or vice versa), but that just makes the game > fun, right? > That is just too, too good. =) Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:53:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:03:57 -0600From: "Chris" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" To: Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 3:27 AM Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems >> If your friend wants to go off killing Superiors >>and other totally Munchkinoid Tricks, tell him to >>play. To fight for a Word. To strengthen his Words >>and let them grow. Then tell him that after a few >>hundred years of playing, assuming you and he live >>that long, he can possibly become a Superior himself >>and go hunting. In the meantime, if the opposition >>that's set up for him isn't tough enough, bury him >>in Calabim. >I once put him up against 3 fairly large Calabim of >Hardcore with a big boom box playing lots of hard >metal. He was a Mercurian. Luckily for him, his >Malakite companion was there to help out. >Chris Hold on, cognitive dissonance time here. This guy wanted the possibility open to be able to knock off a Superior ... ... and he was playing a _Mercurian_??? :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Things That Make You Go "Hmmm" ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:17:21 -0400 From: hbias@earthlink.net (Harris Bias) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Theurgy > Yelping > > within a half-block or so: Cherubim and Shedim have a +2 to attune to the Maybe I'm missing something here, but shouldn't that be Cherubim and Djinn? - -- G. Harris Bias hbias@earthlink.net "He had some measure of the infuriating trait that causes a young man to be a nonconformist for its own sake and found that the surest way to shock people, in those days, was to believe that some kinds of behavior were bad, and others good, and that is was reasonable to live one's life accordingly." -Neal Stephenson, "The Diamond Age" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:52:03 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human >From: "Charles Phipps" >Your thoughts at this rule? What a good punishment from D is? > I think of it this way. To an angel, death is not the absolute worst thing that can happen to a human -- damnation is. If the angel thinks that by killing a mortal they can save a soul (maybe that human was being a really bad influence on someone), then Dominic would expect them to do it without hesitation. If the mortal really deserved to die -- perhaps he had committed some capital crime, but the law would never have been able to touch him -- then again, Dominic isn't going to be overly upset. If a human was good, they will end up in Heaven after their death anyway. So also, if a demon or demonic plot can be foiled permanently and some humans need to die in order to do it, a lot of the hardline archangels will not expect their servitors to quibble too much about it. There's probably a standard lecture about how killing mortals is undesirable (for the disturbance if nothing else), but if the killing was justified, it's probably followed by some kind of recognition. I'm sure he comes down like a ton of bricks on casual, unnecessary, or thoughtless killings. So an angel might be able to expect the equivalent of a court-martial if you are running a game in which this is one of the more serious offences -- except that if you can justify yourself, there will be no mark on the record. Superiors like Blandine, Novalis, Marc, and Yves will almost never condone killing a human, whatever the circumstances. They'll expect their servitors to find more creative ways of dealing with the problem. Superiors like Laurence, Gabriel, and Dominic would take a _very_ hard look at the circumstances, but if they agreed that the killing was necessary, they'd be as likely to reward a servitor as punish him. The others are probably less uptight about such things, but that doesn't mean explanations won't be required. I think that Eli is the exception, because he never takes his angels to task. As far as they know, killing might as cool as creating. YMMV jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:53:39 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems >From: Maurice Lane > >Hold on, cognitive dissonance time here. This guy >wanted the possibility open to be able to knock off a >Superior ... > >... and he was playing a _Mercurian_??? > It's not dissonant for Mercurians to hit celestials :) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:58:51 -0600 From: "Chris" Subject: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Hello all, I'm greatly pleased by the responses that I've gotten on these Rants my friend had. Since then, things between us about the game have cooled off significantly. Turns out, he was running a fever and getting sick the night of our arguement. Our debates about the nature of In Nomine have increased, and have remained a good challenge on my part, but haven't devolved into arguing. But there's a few more things he wanted to throw into the mix. 1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point of it is. 2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. If that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the most Essence. So the game is a war of money. Since Marc is Trade and Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it at all. 3) A 2nd Edition is an absolute requirement. But if they do it, then the canon has to be fixed. Certain mechanics better explained (e.g. Disturbance, Words, Distinctions, and Rewards - and without the need for a GMG to do it). No more repetition of previous material in sourcebooks. A significantly better explanation of the setting. And above all, don't do it before spring of next year. You can't compete with D&D 3rd. Who agrees? If things go well, maybe I can get him back into the game. I'm certainly enjoying the debates now, and please try not to be too judgemental of him. I'll admit, he can be rather judgemental about some things, but with this kind of passion in it, then somewhere this game truly fascinates him. If he really hated it, he wouldn't be saying anything about it at all, except, "I hate it." Chris ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1673 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.