From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 14 14:07:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25214 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:07:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA26623 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:05:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:05:50 -0500 Message-Id: <200006141905.OAA26623@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1676 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1676 In this digest: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals RE: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine Re: IN> Killing humans Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End IN> Dominic and Humans IN> Dominic and Killing Re: IN> Dominic and Humans IN> Adventure Plot Thingy II. Re: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> Adventure Plot Thingy II. Re: IN> Killing humans Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:11:37 +1000 From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Ethereals Do ethereals create disturbance? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:42:21 -0500 From: "The Lich Lord" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals I'm not expert but I'd say yes, they just arn't in a postion to do so 99% of the time. Lich - -----Original Message----- From: Azrael To: IN Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 3:24 AM Subject: IN> Ethereals >Do ethereals create disturbance? > >Azrael > > ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 2000 04:20:46 -0700 From: Casca Subject: RE: IN> IN Rant - Addendum On Tue, 13 June 2000, "Leath Sheales" wrote: > Wow. 1 note = 1 mile? That's harsh. From memory, the Disturbance > calculation gives a +1 per note with the bonus reducing for each multiple Not really. First off, I don't use the IN mechanics, so Disturbance is slightly harder to detect in my game (tnough not enormously so). Secondly, my game is set in LA (not the one from FotM, though), and a disturbance that carries from Watts to Hollywood is a great way to get my PCs to investigate. > Disturbance squared yards? Or is silence a major theme of your campaign? > (Not judging, just suggesting). Yes, it is. In fact, one of the major NPCs, Seneschal of a Judgement Tether, is a Seraph formerly in service to Uriel who believes that disturbance is "A blasphemy upon the Symphony." A Master of Law, he has enough power, both personal and political, to make the character's lives hell if they misbehave in "his" city. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:25:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals At 6:11 PM +1000 6/14/00, Azrael wrote: >Do ethereals create disturbance? On the corporeal realm, yes. I believe also when they damage humans in dreamscapes, and if they use Essence, even in the Marches. I'd check the book, but the usual comment about sleeping babies applies. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:31:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals > From: Azrael > >Do ethereals create disturbance? Yes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:36:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine Steven Feldon wrote: > There's _a_ prerelease version at > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/choirs/pre.html, but the > version that Beth and I are talking about was the playtest from > two years before release. I notice that the pre-release version gives angels th collective synonym "Bene-Elohim," while demons have the synonym "Bal-Elohim." I also remember seeing, somewhere, the band-name "bal-cherub," presumably since changed to "djinn." Anyone else ever hear of it? What were the "Zenumites" that Elizabeth mentions? Were they equivalent to any current Band? What were Nephallim like as a band? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:39:10 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Killing humans At 11:36 PM -0700 6/13/00, Jo Hart wrote: >> >>Accidental....BUT....acceptable losses in the Malakim's eyes...he weighed >>the risk and decided the best method. However 30 mortals...innocent and >>whose only crime is poor taste in music-are dead. >> > >This is why Malakim terrify people. OTOH, that would create a huge >amount of disturbance, so the murder would definitely be noted and >investigated. I had a campaign example of something similar crop up. I was running an NPC Malakite of War who had been remnantized and 'brought back' by new Forces being added to her. As a result, she was an entirely new Angel, with a very bright, innocent point of view, and the rest of the gang was kind of nursemaiding her and introducing her to the Corporeal World. When, while she was being introduced to 'cheese fries,' she saw a man walking by who she resonated, as she resonated almost everyone she saw in those days. It turned out he was a child molester guilty of horrible things, with a recent 'most honorable' of a quick death. It was fun to watch peoples' reactions as this sweet, innocent girl started running down a man in a mall, with intent to rip him into *very* tiny shreds. She was sweet, but he was Evil and had to die right then, and if his death hurt him it wouldn't hurt him enough. Malakim. They're *such* fun. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:41:23 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human - --On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 21:40 -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > Well, I wouldn't agree with you completely. I think that a Triad >> > would be likely to haul you in for questioning if they found >> > pornography in the same house an angel was staying in. (yes this >> > does make it very easy to set up angels, and the demons do enjoy >> > doing so) > > Triads can't possibly waste their time "hauling angels in" for EVERY > minor potential transgression. Besides, they don't need to haul you > anywhere. > > Seraph of Judgment: "What were you doing in the same house with this > pornography, Intercessionist?" > > Mercurian: "Umm.....I didn't know it was there, Most Holy. Maybe it > belongs to my Soldier. I'll talk to him about it." > > Seraph (reading Symphony): "Indeed. And talk to him about the Sin of > Onan while you're at it...." > > > (This tongue-in-cheek example assumes that Judgment has a Catholic > boarding school attitude towards sex, of course, which I don't think > they do.) > > -David Images of BIG angels. With no sense of humor. And BIG rulers. Marc. Just Marc. ("The 'Meadow Morals Squad'." "The *what*...?") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:58:48 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum - --On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 21:49 -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > Casca wrote: >> I found it amusing that, Eli excepted, every archangel uses the same >> levels of Distinction, regardless of how uptight (Laurence) or >> relaxed (Novalis) said organization is. I'm starting to personalize >> the levels for each Superior, frex Novalis' Distinctions are Dude, >> , Guru. Suggestions from the list would be great! The >> more militant/ organized/ conservative AAs use the traditional >> Vassal/Friend/Master system. > > > I did write something in S1 about Laurence formerly having a very > complicated system of ranks and Distinctions, with each Order of the > Sword having its own Distinctions. Then he tidied up sometime in the > last couple of centuries. > > -David Let me guess. The other AAs were having a devil of a time getting servitors of Laurence to 'play well with others' because nobody (including the aforementioned servitors of Laurence) could figure out where an "Honored Second Adjutant Subaltern of the Greater Third Silver Order, bearing the mark of the Dragoon" actually fit in with other angels working in groups. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Yes, I suppose I do sound less important, but *I* don't turn that interesting blue shade when I introduce myself...") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:59:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine At 10:36 AM -0500 6/14/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Steven Feldon wrote: > > > There's _a_ prerelease version at > > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/choirs/pre.html, but the > > version that Beth and I are talking about was the playtest from > > two years before release. > >I notice that the pre-release version gives angels th collective >synonym "Bene-Elohim," while demons have the synonym "Bal-Elohim." >I also remember seeing, somewhere, the band-name "bal-cherub," >presumably since changed to "djinn." Anyone else ever hear of it? I've been looking at the Four Houses of the Archangels, and the differences between them (including some very profound differences in personality and mission. To be honest, I might prefer the near-Alien Archangel Michael it described to the one we've got in the release game). It's an interesting 'other path' for the game to have taken.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:14:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine The way Prehistoric In Nomine let celestials create props and reclaim essence/character points when things were destroyed, makes the celestials of that game sound like they produced a sort of minitaure nest of sub-creation when down in the Corporeal. It reminds me of the way Immortals *always* had their swords handy, in "Highlander." It is also true to cinematic traditions about angels, who freely do minor miracles with props. (And can always teleport to the right place at the right time.) I am thinking of "Touched by an Angel," but also "Highway to Heaven" and "The Bishop's Wife." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:28:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine At 10:36 AM -0500 6/14/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Steven Feldon wrote: > >> There's _a_ prerelease version at >> http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/choirs/pre.html, but the >> version that Beth and I are talking about was the playtest from >> two years before release. > >I notice that the pre-release version gives angels th collective >synonym "Bene-Elohim," while demons have the synonym "Bal-Elohim." >I also remember seeing, somewhere, the band-name "bal-cherub," >presumably since changed to "djinn." Anyone else ever hear of it? Alas, I haven't -- the draft I have calls them Djinn. >What were the "Zenumites" that Elizabeth mentions? Were they >equivalent to any current Band? What were Nephallim like as >a band? Zenumites were Habbalah-equivalents. Their scarification was symbolic of rank and status. "Most of the rituals involve using a small cache of the venom of the Adderim, the only known Celestial poison, to ritually scarify the demons' infernal flesh. The more rituals undergone, and the greater the ritual's intensity, the more delicate patterns and glyphs will have been etched into the Zenumite's skin." However, in this draft, it gives some interesting notions about the popular "Malakim can't fall ... OFF THE FLOOR!" notion -- in this draft, Malakim didn't have the Immune to Trauma trait! The _Zenumites_ did (and it was implied that any celestial who died enough times could pick it up). They were immune to pain, as well, and Saminga was one. (No, they weren't Fallen Elohim -- Bands evolved randomly, and the successful kinds thrived. Fallen Elohim and Fallen Orphanim did not thrive, and "no Malevolent samples remain [of them].") Nephallim were, one and all, athiests. (Even as Zenumites were believers that they did God's Will in the underworld.) Appearance-wise, they were big and ugly -- but true to their Word once given. Haagenti was a Nephal -- or at least their patron Prince. (A patron Superior was one who would speak up for anyone of the Band/Choir -- sort of like a mayor- boss dichotomy, the text describes it as. Your patron Superior is your mayor, your immediate Superior is your boss.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:25:00 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine - --On Wed, Jun 14, 2000 11:14 -0500 Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The way Prehistoric In Nomine let celestials create props and > reclaim essence/character points when things were destroyed, > makes the celestials of that game sound like they produced a sort > of minitaure nest of sub-creation when down in the Corporeal. > > It reminds me of the way Immortals *always* had their swords > handy, in "Highlander." It is also true to cinematic traditions > about angels, who freely do minor miracles with props. (And > can always teleport to the right place at the right time.) > I am thinking of "Touched by an Angel," but also "Highway to > Heaven" and "The Bishop's Wife." > > Earl Have you (or anyone else) seen a movie called "Girlfriend from Hell"? There's a character in the movie called Chaser, who can pull literally *anything* out of his overcoat - provided it's just an incidental prop. I've been wondering lately what that would cost in IN terms... Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jun 2000 16:37:54 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End On 13 Jun 2000 18:42:36 -0700 Casca wrote: >On Sun, 11 June 2000, "EDG" wrote: >> I liked this, a lot. ^_^ >Thanks! I was afraid nobody liked it, because after I posted it >no-one said anything. Eric, i asked you to post it, to me and select others, or to the list. you've an impressive track-record with your In Nomine stuff, and i've hardly been online of late, so i both didn't think you needed to hear how much i like the possibilities of this campaign as well as the fact that i didn't have much time to email you. yes, i liked the beginning of Endgame. i'm eager to see more. -=|horsefly|=- If I ever wanted to say 'gwrthwynebiad', I'd probably kill myself by choking on my own tongue. =) - --John Karakash ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:58:25 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Dominic and Humans Beth wrote: >Not quite sure what you're saying here, but as regards whether Judgment >will pass judgment upon a human -- look at his Mercurians' Choir >Attunement. As usual Beth you are a master of the details and I thank you for bringing this up. It would be foolish of me to say Dominic believes his word only applies to Angels. Words by their defination apply to the Mortal World, that's why their needed. Otherwise I doubt they'res much point to them. I sincerely doubt there is a angel of "making peace between factions in Heaven and heaven alone" or a Angel of "Novalis's hairstyles". However I am trying to nail exactly what Dominic views as the "justifiable" homicide rules. Self defense I think only gets it if your directly on a misson and God help you (that happens way too often for Dominics taste-even if it was only once) if you kill because of some mess of your own. I personally like the idea that Dominic advocates murder and death always as a last resort on humanity and is the most disturbed save Yves by "human death" disturbances of the Syphony. However this *IS* the man whose servitors started the Inquisition or at least helped alot. (due to your recommendation-I'm buying Superiors One) Also you lose a lot of the "grayness" of heaven if it was strictly demons (and by far more humans) subverting the Catholic Church burning witches serving Ethereals or their own Christian views. I guess my best bet is to stick with Dominic giving a good "circumstantial" review of each case where mortals end up dead by angelic hands. The way I see it, Dominic's inquisitors look for.... 1:) Dissonance (which in Cherubs and Impudites often equals murder): A Seraph who spends too much time amongst humans and forgets why exactly little white lies disturb the nature of God's purpose is a big concern also. Plus a person who by their nature has become something other than what their Superior wants them to be (a long time ago on this list there was an angel of majurranai who served Novalis-before he started bombing drug groups)-Dominic hates these cases because it's hard to get an angel to change allegiances...or abandon his new beliefs...you think? 2:) Disturbance: With my Malakim example I'm thinking these are primarilly handled by Laurence really as the angels because of their tactics are while no less loyal to Heaven's cause-fighting the way very LOUDLY and BADLY and RUTHLESSLY. While Uriel was taken up in my opinion if he hadn't been stopped when he had-he would have gone against the Ethereal worshippers-if he had Dominic would have called for his dissolutionment. "One does not bulldoze the flower garden to get a few weeds"-one of the few times Dominic quotes Novalis was when in this trial. But I'm guessing the main problems behind these are... * Breaking the Ten Commandments (Angels who set themselves up as Gods, lust after mortals like the Grigori-especially married ones, he doesn't bother with thievery among Janusites anymore and mostly leaves it to Marc when his do but otherwise...honoring ones mother *or* father in heaven goes without question as mere alleginace) * Going Native: While rare I'm pretty sure not all angels want to fall but a number due want to follow the Grigori way and go native. Outcasts who find living like a human without worrying about a cosmic war that has no end in sight has to be pretty tempting....mostly to Mercurians no doubt. - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:16:01 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Dominic and Killing >A man who sent himself to Hell by his own actions. True I suspect. Still it's one more essence battery for the other side....all feeling and personal affection that another person is condemned til either judgement day, eternity, or repetence in the fires on his part. >Dominic is a judge, after all. I am thinking more of cases where the victim >is in a position to influence _many_ other people toward Hell, if he is not >stopped. So it's a case of killing one hellbound soul, or letting him be >responsible for the damnation of many others, and there isn't always a >quick, reasonable alternative. While I can see it as possibly being done on Khalid, Laurence, Michael's part (basically Holy Assaisins working for the CIA, Isareli governments, MI6, Vatican etc etc etc) to kill soldiers of Hell or the mortal vessels of Balseraphs etc (anyone who raises from the dead and returns ala Anti-Christ will get a strict whoopin back in Hell...and Michael is very twitchy about signs of that). I still find it strange to think that they regard non-combatants who are just annoying or evil (Charles Manson if he was strictly human or Hitler even....) would be killed-instead I see them as merely letting events run their course mortal wise (free will and all) while trying to influence humanity against the evil (the war superiors merely hunting down any Diabolics they find). Killing is about the big way you disturb free will. >This is also why Malakim have to keep killing demonic vessels, even though >they know the demons will probably reconsitute in Hell and come back. While >they aren't on Earth, they aren't seducing souls for Lucifer. The Malakite >who 'goes easy' on a sympathetic demon will be personally responsible for >the damnation of the human souls that demon goes on to corrupt. The way I see Malakites is that they are usually the paladins of Heaven AD&D style and Seraphs on the preachers but in my opinion "Suffer not an Evil" to live probably means a lot *due* (probably amongst Novalis and the more pleasant gods-smell numbers I know) the destruction of the evil INSIDE the demon-which is the equivalent of a broader defination of a word while the majority of power goes to the main defination. I.E. A Malakite kills demon vessels fine but he is better off to try and give him "one last" chance to repent before he goes...and Malakim can be pretty darn persuasive-doubly so if their seraph bosses are around or gave them couching. Still theres somewhat of a difference I think between a Mortal who is just ignorant (in the cosmic scheme of things) and not understanding the consequences and a being actively furthering the cause of pain and suffering in the world. >No, individual triads are able to make judgements on his behalf & in his >name. They're expected to use their best judgement. If human judges an do >it, then so can angels. Often they'll probably prefer to let the mortal >judiciary deal with cases, but if the proof isn't there, then that might not >be an option. True enough. In this case I suspect your right with more militant angels trying to get the cases involving the "nasties" to go easy while the merciful go for them to try and get them to lay down the law. SIgh Heaven really didn't used to be this political....if what Michael's saying is true. However also recall that Dominic if he doesn't try every case, does do a review everytime he appears to his servants. If he dissaproves-you'll know and unless it's already carried out or trivial-there will be a higher court appeal. >Angels don't need physical proof. Often, they will just _know_ via resonances. Yep. >If a triad of judgement bothers to put a mortal to the trial, then it should >be as terrfiying as facing the ultimate high court judge in person -- I can just see it. Dragging a human being back to a broken down battered church that is still a Tether despite the fire that was there before...then assuming Celestial form as soldiers hold him before the awesome tribunal....jury bodvistas (needless to say the guy did some bad things). >because they will _know_ what you've done. You should be on your knees >begging for mercy, as if you were standing before the throne of God Himself >and being called to account for your life. Needless to say Angels descending to judge you to heaven or hell can't be overly pleasant....and an awesome experience. >That's the heavenly judgement that Dominic personifies, and it isn't always >merciful (possibly if the human repents et al that would count as a >mitigating circumstance, though.) A plead of guilty to crimes is porbably DOminic's doing-it's at base a moral concept that indicates a human being is repentful of his crimes and wishes to pay for them. >For some people, that sort of experience _will_ make them turn themselves >around. If not there is no next time. >This is why Malakim terrify people. OTOH, that would create a huge amount of >disturbance, so the murder would definitely be noted and investigated. In my opinion this is the kinduv case that attracts the Archangel's personal attention. (more than 10 nonaligned mortals death in a single night by a angel is a good rule of thumb). The question though is not if this incident (which could go either way truly because these are about a few thousand points of essence here....that could seriously turn the tide of the war on a continent-or make Furfar far stronger) will be judged...it's whether that Dominic would find him guilty of overstepping his duties or not and punish him how. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:33:52 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic and Humans > heaven alone" or a Angel of "Novalis's hairstyles". I bet there's a DEMON of Novalis's Hairstyles. He's a Djinn of the Media who's totally obsessed with the NovalisCAM that was smuggled into Heaven a few years back. A few imps and gremlins are assigned to him -- all of their vessels look like those Novalis uses -- and they've caused more problems than their stalker boss has. And, of course, the Game is not exactly thrilled by the unhealthy interest in Heaven the Djinn has displayed... Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:19:51 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Adventure Plot Thingy II. Heya! I really liked the last few ideas ya'all gave me, and have incorporated them into my game. Now I'm ready for phase two. - ------- How do angels get to Hell? Where do they appear when they get there? Could they use a tether, and if so, is this wise? What happens to angels in Hell? I heard they generated dissonance every so often... In Hell, you can change your Celestial appearance, right? - ------- Creative talents wanted! If anyone can flesh the following out, I'd appreciate it. I plan to have the angels go to Hell to find Putrukiel, a Balseraph of Kronos. Putrukiel has lost all but his Celestial forces and is wandering around Shal-Mari; the angels are going to try to find him knowing nothing but his name. He used to be the Angel of Joy and rebelled with Kobal, whom he served until Kronos arrived in Hell. Other than that, I'd like more details into his mentality, what he's doing now, and how the players can find him and learn why he is important. (He's important because his Balseraph of Kronos attunement -- which Kobal stole when he force-stripped him -- is letting Kobal make an entity which appears to be an angel.) So I am soliciting a personality for Putrukiel (such as it is), and an adventure on how angels in Hell can find him and find out what is going on with him. All they have is a name. The party is made up of a Malakite of Fire, a Malakite of Wind, and an Ofanite of Fire. Occasionally they have a Cherub of the Sword with them, too. - ------- And why did Kobal do it? He incited a human to dream of Uriel and Tsayadim, and then rescued those dreamshades. By giving Putrukiel's forces -- and a few Ethereal forces stolen from a real Tsayadim -- to the Pseudo-Uriel dreamshade, he's managed to create an entity that is almost a perfect duplicate of Uriel. And since this entity can get into Heaven, and can grant that ability to those who serve it, Kobal has dreamed up the hilarious idea of having his Pseudo-Uriel lead a charge of Ethereals into Blandine's tower. Sure, they'll be cut to ribbons once they get into Heaven, but every joke needs a good punchline. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:45:48 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 8:36 AM -0700 6/13/00, Robert Knop wrote: > >[...] but Essence is a foundation of In Nomine, > > Indeed, in an early draft of the rules I dug up somewhere, Essence and > character points are _one and the same_. You spend Essence to make a > vessel, for instance, and get it back again if the vessel is toasted. > IIRC. I thought that was a very interesting mechanic and was SO glad > that they didn't use it for the final version. O:> Ah, but did you remember my extremely non-canonical idea for 'quintessence'? Quintessence is a purer and more concentrated form of Essence and is one of the basic differences between Superiors and the rest of the crowd: Superiors can take Essence and turn it into Quintessence. Almost all of their other tricks involve fooling around with this basic building block. Quintessence basically equals character points. That's why Superiors can cavalierly add on Forces, Attunements and whatnot. Characters can slowly gather Quintessence by doing things and interacting with the Symphony (i.e. gain character points), but they can't just grab a pile of Essence and squeeze some Quintessence out of it. Anyone symphonically aware can, however, convert Quintessence to Essence at a 5-to-1 ratio. Good for quick boosts when things are desperate. Under special circumstance a character can mess with Essence->Quintessence (such as building a Vessel while in Limbo), but such things are the exceptions. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:47:39 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum At 2:58 -0400 6/13/00, Chris wrote: >1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a >single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point >of it is. That part of the Symphony which is the corporeal realm is now supposed to be left to evolve on its own. When that evolution is interfered with by beings from other realms, the tampering is detectable by those who can hear the Symphony, just as you could tell if someone were playing flat in a performance of Beethoven's 5th. (Or someone had substituted an air-horn for a tuba -- bigger changes are more obvious.) Just as in those cases, Symphonically-aware beings can not only detect that "something isn't right", but roughly how wrong it is, and possibly what the cause of the wrongness is. There are two points to this: in game, it's God's way of keeping his angels from meddling too much -- it's a warning of something broken happening in the Symphony, much like dissonance is at the personal level. I suppose you could even think of it as God becoming dissonant.... Outside of the game setting, it serves a similar purpose -- it keeps the players in check, and keeps the game from turning into a "overt supers" game. It's a means of enforcing the setting's realities on the players. If you eliminated disturbance in the setting, you'd basically be on the way from changing the paradigm from a cold war to a hot one, with the gloves off and everyone out in the open. >2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, >if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the >world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be >said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. This simply doesn't follow. Essence *does* represent the ability to make radical changes to the Symphony. The more Essence, the bigger a change you can make. But if your goal in the War is to *not* change things from their natural progression (which is supposedly the angelic position in the War), then you don't really need Essence all that much. > If >that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the >most Essence. That's generally true. > So the game is a war of money. No, it's a war of power. It happens that the power is of a form that's sometimes used as a currency -- consider it similar to what would happen if you could somehow use sunlight (or maybe kilowatt-hours of electricty) as currency. That's probably the closest analogy. > Since Marc is Trade and >Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. That presumes that their Words give them an advantage over the other Superiors in collecting power. This simply isn't true. Just because you're the Symphony's best dealer doesn't mean you'll corner the market on power. It *does* give you enough power to be a Superior, yes. But there are many different types of power, the ability to trade is only one of them. Following this reasoning, the US should have sent Bill Gates to handle Iraq, rather than having the Gulf War. He certainly has more money than all of the general in the US, combined.... >In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it >at all. There's no reason for such a statement that I can see, other than the fact that Essence restricts PC powers a fair amount -- something a munchkin would find unpleasant. Most games, other than supers games, restrict the amount of power one PC can exercise in one day. If your friend wants a supers game, then he shouldn't be looking at In Nomine in the first place. That's simply not the intent of the game. >3) A 2nd Edition is an absolute requirement. But if they do it, then the >canon has to be fixed. As far as I know, there's not much "broken" canon in the main book. Unless your friend is talking about things *he* doesn't like. I doubt anything is going to be changed specifically to address his apparent desire to change everything. Have him take a look at GURPS IN when it comes out, and see if his issues have been addressed there. If not, then they probably won't be changed in IN 2nd ed, either -- GURPS IN was organized mostly the way Elizabeth wants to re-org the IN main book. > Certain mechanics better explained (e.g. >Disturbance, Words, Distinctions, and Rewards - and without the need for a >GMG to do it). Of those, I'd say only Words got slighted at all in the original main book. The others seem to be explained well enough, though not in great detail. The GMG was intended for people who wanted more detail on those subjects. > No more repetition of previous material in sourcebooks. SJGames editorial policy is generally against repetition. When it's done, there are good reasons for it. Usually, it happens as a game line evolves and a need grows to collect and organize the information better. That's essentially what's happened with the IN line -- some stuff that was originally in the Revelations Cycle needed to be a) revised, b) expanded, and c) organized in a useful way. That accounts for nearly all the repeated material in the line, and it's not expected to be repeated again elsewhere, as far as I know. It certainly *won't* go into the main book in 2nd ed -- there's no room for it. (Well, it's possible a page or two of material might be squeezed in -- stuff like expanded weapons tables or the drug/poison/disease rules.) > A >significantly better explanation of the setting. Might be useful, but it wouldn't fit in the core book, which is already bursting at the seams. Your friend seems to be completely opposed to needing to buy supplements for more detailed information, it sounds like. Personally, I'd rather have supplements than a main book the size of the NYC telephone directory. Which would be what IN would take for a good, in-depth, exposition of the setting (everything in the main book, the relevant APG, IPG, CPG, and GMG sections, the Tether book, and all the Superiors books). > And above all, don't do it >before spring of next year. You can't compete with D&D 3rd. Frankly, I don't think AD&D v3.0 is going to affect any IN sales much, one way or the other. Not the same audience, generally, I'd say. The timing would be much more dependent on IN sales and editorial capacity than anything else. If your friend thinks AD&D 3rd ed. is a "must have", he's probably not IN material in the first place; at least not now. IN, like a lot of other RPGs, is really a "successor system" -- people take it up after they've moved on from D&D (or maybe White Wolf these days, since that seems to be a mass-market "first system" for a lot of new gamers, now). > Who agrees? On IN 2nd edition? Most people seem to want it. On the specific points? Not me, as far as I can tell. > I'll admit, he can be rather judgemental about some things, but >with this kind of passion in it, then somewhere this game truly fascinates >him. If he really hated it, he wouldn't be saying anything about it at all, >except, "I hate it." I don't know that I agree with that -- there are any number of people (myself included) who hate Microsoft with a passion, and will complain about them in detail, and at length. Frankly, I wouldn't hold out much hope for him as an IN player, from the comments you've relayed. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:45:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Plot Thingy II. ben wrote: > How do angels get to Hell? Where do they appear when they get > there? Could they use a tether, and if so, is this wise? Running from memory, they can either follow a demon back to its Heart or go down an infernal Tether. Either way, they tend to appear somewhere in a Prince's stronghold, so no, it's not usually wise. > What happens to angels in Hell? I heard they generated dissonance > every so often... I don't recall that. What I recall is that they don't get their dawn point of Essence. > In Hell, you can change your Celestial appearance, right? Not that I recall. There's not much that can change celestial appearance. > So I am soliciting a personality for Putrukiel (such as it is) Which isn't much. With no Corporeal or Ethereal Forces, there isn't much left to it but will and perception. I'd be inclined to treat it as permanently "punch drunk" from the force-stripping. Can't think straight, can't remember clearly, can't DO anything being weak as a kitten and totally clumsy. I picture a writhing worm, reacting emotionally and without consideration to whatever is in the immediate environment. What remains is to decide what Putrukiel liked, feared, or hated. Earl Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:56:55 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Killing humans At 2:36 -0400 6/14/00, Jo Hart wrote: >This is also why Malakim have to keep killing demonic vessels, even though >they know the demons will probably reconsitute in Hell and come back. While >they aren't on Earth, they aren't seducing souls for Lucifer. The Malakite >who 'goes easy' on a sympathetic demon will be personally responsible for >the damnation of the human souls that demon goes on to corrupt. Which is why Malakim who "go easy" on demons ought to be taking a close, personal interest in the demon's every move. Killing them's easier than babysitting them, so unless the Malakite's convinced that the demon can be eventually brought to redemption, why waste the effort? The same reasoning applies to Malakim with demons they're getting useful information out of, or otherwise using as tools in the War. You have to keep a close eye on them, to make sure you're getting enough value out of them to make putting off killing them worthwhile. If they're out raising Hell elsewhere, then it's generally a bad strategy. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:06:27 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Prehistoric In Nomine At 11:25 -0400 6/14/00, Marc Bowden wrote: > Have you (or anyone else) seen a movie called "Girlfriend from Hell"? >There's a character in the movie called Chaser, who can pull literally >*anything* out of his overcoat - provided it's just an incidental prop. >I've been wondering lately what that would cost in IN terms... Also known as the "Bag of Many Things" schtick in Toon. (From Felix the Cat, I've always assumed.) A stock tradition in animation; I've noticed it even in Japanese anime, but there it tends to be limited to a single item or type of item. (Anime girls often have access to Giant Mallets from Other Dimensions, without any other special powers. And Genma Saotome (in Ranma 1/2) continues the tradition of Wile E. Coyote, of pulling appropriate signage out of thin air, since he's otherwise mute.) Bringing this back to IN a bit, I've sometimes thought about having a Creation attunement to do this, somewhat like Abracadabra, but with the ability to make more complex objects. I've actually had an NPC Creationer use Transubstantiation to make a driver's license (it's basically all organic materials, right? OK, so it's paper and plastics, not dead fish, but creative use of attunements ought to apply....). That may be have been a bad idea, though.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1676 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.