From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 15 23:54:42 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26369 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:54:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA25098 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:53:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:53:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200006160453.XAA25098@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1678 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 15 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1678 In this digest: IN> Endgame IN> Can Disturbances be heard by Superiors IN> Do humans disturb Heaven when they interfere? Re: IN> The Last Temptation of Yves part II Re: IN> Magic Types in In Nomine Re: IN> Can Disturbances be heard by Superiors Re: IN> Do humans disturb Heaven when they interfere? Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End Re: IN> Do humans disturb Heaven when they interfere? IN> Yahtz-- wait, there's only 3 dice. IN> Zorastrism in In Nomine Re: IN> Zorastrism in In Nomine Re: IN> Zoroastrianism IN> IN in DC? Re: IN> IN in DC? IN> Question about the speed of souls Re: IN> Question about the speed of souls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:26:10 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Endgame >You and two others. Actually I loved the Eli being the savior of the angelic folk...I can just see him shedding all his divine incomprehensibility and becomming an awesome glowing figure with huge wings (and a gold earring) that send light flying every which why. Poor Nybblas though....while it isn't saying much, I saw him after Kobal as the Superior closest to redemption (depending on how you play Kobal-Nybblas may be no. 1). Andre comes in a 3rd because he's bored with most his current evils.... Okay that was ***VVVEERRRY*** off topic. In any case please post more of Endgame. I've been anxiously awaiting ever since you posted your part about Dominic. - -Charlemagme ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:38:43 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Can Disturbances be heard by Superiors >It's not canon, but it's as good a reason as any for people to >want to keep their heads down. I'm not sure why an Outcast/Renegade >would show up any more clearly than any other celestial's disturbance, >though. True enough. My Outcasts and Renegades comment deserves revising. Basically the idea kinduv makes it possible in my mind that while most superiors would ignore the average disturbance in the Symphony; huge explosians are heard as thunder in heaven if you will and if there is a moderate explosian that is disturbing to a Superior (most disturbances are) most send a reliever or a flunkie to see what that was from Dominic and the like. More disturbing is the "It's a Wonderful Life" effect-strange how this movie about a Saint would get scary. Basically the Superior who takes notice of a disturbance focuses his attention on the planet earth and looks really closely...seeing exactly who was responsible, wear, how, and why. My guess is that Michael usually gets the most investigation as the majority of explosians are "War's" (as opposed to Flowers, Stone, Etc) concern (he's on earth alot anywho)....technically it's Laurence's job but Michael I never really saw as giving up his job so much as letting Laurence take care of the less mystical aspects and minutia. "I focus on the big picture" Dominic is probably a close second and resents Michael's intrusions. It also gives a chance for disturbances to become real dangers and concerns for all angels. Alot of my players are fairly short sighted and see the chances of disturbances being investigated by their fellow angels (at least in a meaningful number) nil. This is especially true of demons... After all they have vessels...etc. However the idea of organized investigation by Superiors who take notice might prove very daunting to would be disturbers... Plus it's a reigned in affect already by very few disturbances attract a specific superior's attention. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:41:32 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Do humans disturb Heaven when they interfere? >If Celestials do make disturbances in their own realms (and Ethereals too), >it might indicate that Celestials (and Ethereals) are not a true part of the >Symphony at all, since their alien actions disturb it. Well this is a simple question to answer.... If a human who is not dreaming or a spirit ends up in Hell/Heaven/the Marches in his physical body. Whether it be the Virgin Mary, Enoch, Muhammed, Elijah, Old Obi Wan, Yoda, Buddah, or the fabulous Quin Mallory screwing up a Sliders effect... Do they cause disturbance in the Symphony if oh....they should happen to punch an angel/demon/god and somehow hurt him on their own turf? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:48:56 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Last Temptation of Yves part II >From: "Charles Phipps" >>Idea 5: Backgrounds for 2 Superiors >I was curious if I should make a really weird statement and reveal that >Yves >isn't of a choir for a very good reason-he's a human being. That's very interesting. In fact, he could even be Adam (having spent millenia in heaven before being incarnated on Earth) -- according to Genesis, God brought all the animals before Adam, and he named them all. Could be Adam Kadmon even, if you follow Kabbalah. If you do this then presumably Lilith walked out because she refused to follow God's plan ... jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:34:14 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Magic Types in In Nomine >Psychic Powers: Don't laugh-prodjects like this for Vapula and Jean are >commonplace. Altering the monkey's brains is a hobby of Jean in order to >compensate what he believes for inferior evolution. Basically they >function like attunements in my opinion. > >-Charlemagne I take the point of view of the orginal game on the issue of psychic powers, humans who possess them are the Children of the Grigori. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:16:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Can Disturbances be heard by Superiors At 12:38 AM -0400 6/15/00, Charles Phipps wrote: [...] > A lot of my players are fairly short sighted and see the >chances of disturbances being investigated by their fellow angels (at least >in a meaningful number) nil. This is especially true of demons... Tsk. Definitely tsk. They really must, if demons, have their next disturbance attract the attention of a Djinn of the Game (possibly in conjunction w/ a Lilim partner who will take 'unspecified' Geases (i.e., show up as Geas Discord & can be invoked at any time w/out the victim getting a Will roll to resist) as payment for 'not reporting' their little indiscretions...). Or, if angels, discover that bar over there is full of semi-drunken Baalites on R&R. Or, if demons, that the bar over there is the "Eighth Virtue" tonight... (Floating Malakite convention from _You Are Here._) >After all they have vessels...etc. However the idea of organized >investigation by Superiors who take notice might prove very daunting to >would be disturbers... Don't forget, if you have a Superior, they have been known to recognize celestials in vessels -- whether the celestials in question had just been noisy or not! (See the GMG...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:18:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Do humans disturb Heaven when they interfere? At 12:41 AM -0400 6/15/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >>If Celestials do make disturbances in their own realms (and Ethereals too), >>it might indicate that Celestials (and Ethereals) are not a true part of >the >>Symphony at all, since their alien actions disturb it. > >Well this is a simple question to answer.... > >If a human who is not dreaming or a spirit ends up in Hell/Heaven/the >Marches in his physical body. Whether it be the Virgin Mary, Enoch, >Muhammed, Elijah, Old Obi Wan, Yoda, Buddah, or the fabulous Quin Mallory >screwing up a Sliders effect... > >Do they cause disturbance in the Symphony if oh....they should happen to >punch an angel/demon/god and somehow hurt him on their own turf? If you can get Rikbiel (IIRC the name), the living artifact chariot Angel of Ascension (IIRC the Word) to cooperate, more power to you. I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot-pole for canon. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:37:08 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End Casca wrote: > > > > as well as the fact that i didn't have much time to email you. yes, > > i liked the beginning of Endgame. i'm eager to see more. > > You and two others. Three others. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:59:59 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End > > You and two others. > >Three others. :) Make that four. ;) - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of The Game - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:59:59 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End > > You and two others. > >Three others. :) Make that four. ;) - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of The Game - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:26:43 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Do humans disturb Heaven when they interfere? > Return-Path: emccoy@nh.ultranet.com > At 12:41 AM -0400 6/15/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > >If a human who is not dreaming or a spirit ends up in Hell/Heaven/the > >Marches in his physical body. Whether it be the Virgin Mary, Enoch, > >Muhammed, Elijah, Old Obi Wan, Yoda, Buddah, or the fabulous Quin Mallory > >screwing up a Sliders effect... > > > >Do they cause disturbance in the Symphony if oh....they should happen to > >punch an angel/demon/god and somehow hurt him on their own turf? > > If you can get Rikbiel (IIRC the name), the living artifact chariot > Angel of Ascension (IIRC the Word) to cooperate, more power to you. > I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot-pole for canon. There is at least one other way for a Mortal to get to heaven, in canon. Someone who is innocent can end up in Yves' Library. (And there may be a way to accidentially end up in the Archives, but I can't recall if it is specified or not.) In my game, mortals who are completely corrupt, in every aspect, who are on par with Balseraphs for lying to themselves about the differences between selfishness and selflessness, and rival Habbilites for being convinced of their own self righteousness, can accidentially wander through an archive and end up in the Archives. Notable, this is an independant state from meeting one's own Fate. While this state is much less likely, and less people wander into the Archives than the Library, mortals are much more likely to return from the Library. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:28:56 -0400 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Yahtz-- wait, there's only 3 dice. Quoth Jason Schneiderman on 6/13/00 6:55 PM: > >> > "Nephallim -- _all_ CotG -- used to be demons."> > > Ethereal characters got interventions on 333s I was never part of the original play tests, but we have a special house-name for rolling 333: we call it "Invoking Phil." It's a non-event, noted and celebrated for absolutely nothing of interest happening at that particular moment -- a moment significant in its triviality, a minor victory for the Forces of Apathy. Otherwise, Ethereals should be able to get some sort of intervention... probably as demons in most cases since many of them are sided with Beleth. However, not all of them cooperate with the Forces of Darkness, and in special cases, 111 ought to be good. - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "Yo quiero el bazo de ese molesto perro!" ("I want the spleen of that annoying dog!") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:46:49 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Zorastrism in In Nomine Hmmmm well examining Zorastrism in In nomine is a big task. You have to ask a number of very important questions about the mythology and truth of it. 1:) Who started the Religeon My answer: The basic idea would be in my opinion that either Yves, Raphael, The Metatron, or Gabrielle was speaking to Zarathustra about the War between Heaven and Hell. The Metatron and Gabrielle are the two most likely in my opinion because of the importance of Fire in the worship of Ahura-Mazda. 2:) Angels involved in the Religeon David no doubt finds the religeon particularly to his liking as it had a great deal of his influence in my opinion-Stone being a holy thing and Hell being a place of purgination for some of the more prominent theories about it (I believe it personally in RL)-terrible labors there. Michael being associated with the god Mithras (an angel in the Zorastrian context) is one of my personal favorites of work. The old warhorse using the religeon to coax soldiers out of the Romans and focusing on the Dualistic aspects of the Religeon while promoting the conflict between good and evil the entire time.... Uriel as the Purifier no doubt established many of the taboos traditional Zorastrians associate with the religeon. The Angel of Purity no doubt encouraged Gabrielle's fire as a purifying agent motiff. Raphael of course as the Angel of Knowledge no doubt was involved early on with sharing of angelogy and demonology with the works in Persia. Yves taking up the role of knowledge only after his old friend was destroyed. Janus recieved the religeon probably with open arms, encouraging it among the great empires more barbarian members...wind being a holy thing as well. Otherwise everyone else was focused on the political, governmental, and legal aspects of the whole deal. Michael no doubt had a hissy fit when the Persians counquered the children of Israel...none too happy with the annhilation of the Children of Judah by Baal's forces to the North either...but otherwise they just made due and merged concepts. Demons no doubt had very little interest in it save as how much info they were revealing about Hell. Kronos promoter of the lack of free will tried to alter the religeon that way and failed...while Kobal likely gave the grosser depictions of the realm over. Zorastrism is likely remembered fondly by former Raphael servants and Gabrielites....but I doubt many angels pay it mind much I fear anymore. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:16:05 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Zorastrism in In Nomine > 1:) Who started the Religeon > > My answer: The basic idea would be in my opinion that either Yves, Raphael, > The Metatron, or Gabrielle was speaking to Zarathustra about the War between > Heaven and Hell. The Metatron and Gabrielle are the two most likely in my > opinion because of the importance of Fire in the worship of Ahura-Mazda. I disagree. Archangel Eli has always favored non-celestial religions, and was a fan of Zorastrianism. Keep in mind that Heaven had, in cosmic terms, just started Judaism, and the general opinion of Christianity was confusion -- they were't ready for it. Throw Zorastrianism into the mix, and you have outright chaos. So let the humans start it. Or, for a darker thought... Perhaps demons started it. Zorastrianism is dualistic, and is thus very appealing to demons who would very much like to believe that Lucifier *is* God's equal and that they therefore *can* win the War. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:02:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Zoroastrianism Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:24:50 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: IN> Zoroastrianism >Hi folks,I have been thinking rather too much >recently and I have hit upon another topic of >possible interest. >I was wondering what the exact position of >Zoroastrianism is in the In >Nomine universe. David mentions it in the GMG, but >as it is minor nowadays it gets an understandably >short mention. >I was thinking that as a major world religion (albeit >now largely extinct) and a fundamental source for >Judaeo-Christian-Moslem thought and, vitally for In >Nomine, ideas about angels and demons, it might have >attracted a following of angels. >I wondered what people might think of the idea of a >Zoroastrian archangel? Perhaps with a few followers. I could see angels that were patrons, sure, but not an AA. I've always thought of Zoroastrianism as basically Yves' playtest copy of precisely how much information should be available to mortals about the War. He and Eli set it up*, ran some tests, incorporated the stuff that worked into later monotheistic thought and let the rest (more or less) fade. Sounds kinda callous, but then, organized religion was an experiment to begin with ... an experiment that has shown mixed results. Yves doesn't play in this field anymore, remember: odd how angels can never seem to get a handle on the best way for humans perceive their God... :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Big Black Monoliths *(LEVEL 3 NON-CANON ALERT!) Amazing how Dom never tried to put _Eli_ on the stand back then for revealing too much about the War. Oh, well, I suppose there are _some_ benefits to dating the AA of Judgement..) ;) (/LEVEL 3 NON-CANON ALERT!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:35:39 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> IN in DC? I am about to move to Washington, DC. Do we have any IN players from this area on the list? Feel free to contact me offlist if you like. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 2000 21:24:02 -0700 From: Eric Bertish Subject: Re: IN> IN in DC? > I am about to move to Washington, DC. > > Do we have any IN players from this area on the list? Feel free to contact > me offlist if you like. I and my gang of cronies live in or near Fairfax, VA. It's an angel game, with two male and two female players. Unfortunately, I can't offer you an opening right now. I've already added a new player and don't want to unbalance the mix just yet. Also, having been on the list, you're privy to my Secret GM Plots (tm) and that would take some of the fun out of it, unless you can do a VERY convincing impression of amnesia. F'r example, the whole Eli Messiah thing is the major thrust of my campaign. The players haven't realized what's going on with him just yet, and aren't scheduled to for another "season". Your knowing what would happen could make things tricky for both of us. But hey...give me a call when you get here (703 780-5708). At the very elast we can get together and trade war stories. :) _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:27:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Question about the speed of souls When a mortal dies, how fast does his/her soul get to Heaven/Hell/reincarnation/dissolution? Is it instantaneous, or is there a hand-waving lag time? I don't remember seeing anything in canon. I'm wondering this because, if there's any elapsed time at all between death and final reward/punishment, there may be some Servitors of Destiny/Fate lurking on earth in their celestial form, fiery swords in hand, waiting for blessed/damned souls to shuffle off this mortal coil*... Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Teleportation *Destiny because you could make a case that oblivion is better than eternal agony, Fate because they can be nasty little buggers**, both sides because it denies resources to the enemy. **Nothing personal, Tafka. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:47:44 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Question about the speed of souls >When a mortal dies, how fast does his/her soul get to >Heaven/Hell/reincarnation/dissolution? Is it >instantaneous, or is there a hand-waving lag time? I >don't remember seeing anything in canon. I'm pretty sure there isn't. But IMC it takes a while... most souls pass through the Region of the Newly Dead, typically for (ahem) three days. I also rule that newly dead souls go through something sort of like Trauma, in that they're distinctly punchy and dopy for some time after dying... it's not as bad as celestial trauma, but for a month or so they (say 40 days, ahem) they would have to make a Will roll to come up with a particular piece of information. This prevents, frex, demons from blowing away an evil but uncooperative human ("Kill him, then we'll dig the password out of him downstairs"). Also makes angels a _tiny_ bit more careful about their Soldiers (you don't let the demons capture one, figuring that he'll suicide or die trying to escape, then promptly pop up in Heaven and tell the angels where the Tether is, and what the bad guys' Vessels look like, and such. Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1678 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.