From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 18 06:32:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09147 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 06:32:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id GAA12368 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 06:28:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 06:28:51 -0500 Message-Id: <200006181128.GAA12368@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1680 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1680 In this digest: Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance Re: IN> Question about the speed of souls Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) Re: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) Re: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) Re: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) Re: IN> Question about the speed of souls IN> GURPS IN Canon IN> GIN, aGIN (Re: Question about the speed of souls) IN> Midean IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:36:21 -0500 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance At 12:52 AM 6/17/00 -0400, you wrote: >Now, in my game, an Elohite has just been affected by a demon of Lust who >just had Dark Desire used on her. She failed her will roll, and now for >the next 10 hours, she desires -coffee-. (Hey, the demon wanted to prove >his superiority over her, not get her to jump him in his office... he had >an image to maintain). > >My question is, according to the rules of In Nomine, would the Elohite >gain dissonance (and if so, how much?) from satisfying her Dark Desire for >-Coffee-? Or would it not happen due to the fact that it was forced on >her by the demon of Lust? Or would she only gain dissonance from going to >irrational lengths to obtain coffee (holding up a Starbux) instead of >rationally purchasing cups from the nearest cheap vending machine? So long as (a) the Elohite in question can find a rational way of getting to 'hm, I think I'll have some coffee,' and (b) there is no overall situation in which getting a cup of coffee would be the irrational or less-rational thing to do (gotta save the human... gotta have coffee... what to do?), I would say that a lust for coffee is not major enough to be worth Dissonance in my campaigns. I figure the Dissonance only applies when there is a rational decision to be made, and for Celestials decisions regarding what to drink and when are pretty seldom rational. If the Elohite is in a situation where s/he -must- make a rational decision, -that- is when Dissonance would apply. Dissonance also applies in any situation where the Elohite materially affects the Symphony to gain their personal desires- through Resonance, expenditures of Essence, by harming humans or destroying property, by purposely interfering in a human's Destiny or Fate. Your Elohite has already muffed the resistance roll; if they wish to find a non-disturbing means of satisfying their Dark Desire, let them do so. I would also go so far as to let the Elohite recognize that the urge is unnatural and that their judgement is impaired. So long as the Elohite does not have something pressing which, in his unclouded judgement, would call for his immediate action, and so long as nobody asks him to make a judgement until that nine hours or more is up, the Elohite can guzzle coffee at home and be safe from Dissonance. Feel free to correct me, folks. Redneck Kris Overstreet, aka Redneck Gaijin publisher, White Lightning Prod. - www.wlpcomics.com I ***LOATHE*** Microsoft Outlook. Please get Eudora. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:46:15 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance At 0:52 -0400 6/17/00, Philip J. Moyer wrote: >My question is, according to the rules of In Nomine, would the Elohite >gain dissonance (and if so, how much?) from satisfying her Dark Desire for >-Coffee-? Or would it not happen due to the fact that it was forced on >her by the demon of Lust? Or would she only gain dissonance from going to >irrational lengths to obtain coffee (holding up a Starbux) instead of >rationally purchasing cups from the nearest cheap vending machine? I don't think its so much a rules question as a GM call. But in my own game, I probably wouldn't inflict dissonance on a character when their own Will was overriden. Dissonance is really supposed to occur when the character chooses to violate their own nature. This is the same sort of situation as happens with Lilith's dissonance conditions -- being imprisoned (not an act of choice!) isn't dissonant, but failing to try to escape (which is an act of choice) *is*. Basically, as long as the Elohite didn't go overboard satisfying the Dark Desire more than necessary -- i.e., didn't really get into it -- I'd say they'd be safe. But very unhappy about it. If the Elohite was already borderline, then such an event might push them a little too far. >(for what it's worth, she -did- succeed on her Perception roll when the >Essence used to power Dark Desire was spent, so she knows -something- >happened... but that was already after the Will roll had failed.) Personally, I'd say any Elohite who had a craving of any sort would realize it wasn't normal, and probably externally imposed. Which wouldn't exempt them from attempting to satisfy it, but they'd probably do it in the most efficient way possible, so as not to disrupt more important activities more than absolutely necessary. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:21:13 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance >From: Walter Milliken > > >Basically, as long as the Elohite didn't go overboard satisfying the >Dark Desire more than necessary -- i.e., didn't really get into it But I thought that was the whole point of the Dark Desire attunement. You can't go about fulfilling it in a calm and rational way; it hijacks the lizard portion of your brain, and you go wild for the object of desire as if it was a personal sexual fetish ... jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:45:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Question about the speed of souls At 8:50 PM -0500 6/16/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: > >Um, perhaps you missed the discussion last week where it turned out that >GIN > >_is_ now IN canon, and the resulting minor furor. I wish you were right, > >but currently, I don't think you are. . . . > >*WHAT*????? It is the truth, sadly enough. It doesn't overly affect me, as I'd intended to pick up GURPS In Nomine anyhow, but that's why I asked about the 'legality' of reverse engineering GURPS IN mechanics back to IN, since some of the new Canon *is* Mechanics (like the extremely longly awaited Grigori Resonance.) Mm. That's probably where I'm the least happy with this. We've patiently waited for Grigori Canon since, literally, the Main Book. And it seemed that Canon was imminent when they wrote up GURPS IN, so it behooved them to put the Grigori in GURPS IN. But whatever project was supposed to have the Grigori in it hasn't happened, and doesn't seem likely to happen in the near future. So the thing we've been waiting for for years is happening... for GURPS, not our game. It makes it hard to not feel second class compared to our eight hundred pound brother, returned home from college to take over the neighborhood again. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:58:09 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance At 1:46 AM -0400 6/17/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 0:52 -0400 6/17/00, Philip J. Moyer wrote: >>My question is, according to the rules of In Nomine, would the Elohite >>gain dissonance (and if so, how much?) from satisfying her Dark Desire for >>-Coffee-? Or would it not happen due to the fact that it was forced on >>her by the demon of Lust? Or would she only gain dissonance from going to >>irrational lengths to obtain coffee (holding up a Starbux) instead of >>rationally purchasing cups from the nearest cheap vending machine? > >I don't think its so much a rules question as a GM call. But in my own >game, I probably wouldn't inflict dissonance on a character when their >own Will was overriden. Dissonance is really supposed to occur when the >character chooses to violate their own nature. This is the same sort of >situation as happens with Lilith's dissonance conditions -- being >imprisoned (not an act of choice!) isn't dissonant, but failing to try to >escape (which is an act of choice) *is*. Well, we've established that Elohim are in danger of dissonance when their Fallen Fellows get ahold of them, so Dark Desire should be a dangerous thing for them. If said Lustie then arranged things so that rationality can't satisfy her cravings, the Elohite will be forced into satisfaction no matter the cost, thanks to the failed roll. That can put them into dissonant situations, but I'd think their Superiors would be willing to remove the dissonance afterward, for the most part. It would be the same for a Mercurian given a Dark Desire for violence against humanity, I'd think. In the case of a Lust for Coffee, I'd say that it'd be very easy to satisfy that Lust without irrational actions. Now, if the Lustie followed up by stealing the Elohite's wallet, so that the Elohite had to lie, cheat and steal to get her fix.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:08:16 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A question of Elohite Dissonance "Philip J. Moyer" wrote: > My question is, according to the rules of In Nomine, would the Elohite > gain dissonance (and if so, how much?) from satisfying her Dark Desire for> -Coffee-? Yes, but only IF satisfying her desire causes her to forsake what she ought to be doing instead -- i.e., she allows her desire to prevent her from taking the objectively better course of action. If she's sipping a cappucino while her Soldier is being corrupted by the forces of Hell, yes, she'll suffer dissonance. Her Superior might be more lenient about removing it, though, since it was the result of diabolical compulsion. - -David ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2000 10:01:29 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End On Fri, 16 June 2000, "-=|horsefly|=-" wrote: > a chance at Redemption) and the revelation of Eli before the Seraphim > Council and the resulting changes in Dominic and Khalid [*especially* > Khalid!]). Given the Word of Faith, how could Khalid -not- act this way? And Dominic I see as a latter-day Saul of Tarsus. > yes, true. same with me and my writing. i'd like to see more in > future chapters about the Creation Tether in Hell and those three Habbalah > who approached Eli already. question about the "Third Messiah" thing-- It's coming. :) I'm probably going to toss off a short fiction piece first, just so I don't 'lose the groove', as it were. But I fully intend to do an in-depth exploration of Eliism and the effects of New Jerusalem upon the power structure of Hell. > Shavon is guessing Jesus' mortal lifetime represented the First Messiah, > and Jesus' return is the Second. does this mean Endgame happens after > Jesus returns to judge mankind, or is there a different sequence of > messiahs? Different sequence of messiahs. Jesus was the -second-. The first was (Drumroll please)..... Moses. Delivered the Children of Israel from slavery and led them to the Promised Land. The mortal who received God's Covenant on Mt. Sinai (Covenant, as in Ark Of The). Pretty much THE key figure of the Old Testament. Why do you think Moses was one of the two figures (the other being Elijah, a kick-ass prophet in his own right) who appeard at Jesus' Transfiguration? - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:17:07 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) At 6:07 PM -0400 06/16/00, EDG wrote: >ObIN: What happens if God isn't necessarily a hopped-up Ethereal - but >Blandine and Beleth are? Oooh. That's sick. I knew there was a reason why we liked you EDG (besides being prompt [most of the time] in regards to the Website. };;;>). Though, by some account, you could extend this further. All the celestials are dream figments of God. But then, I still have darkly warped ideas about a campaign of IN with God being a sick-in-the-head Child who dreamed up the Symphony. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:25:03 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) > Though, by some account, you could extend this further. All the >celestials are dream figments of God. But then, I still have darkly warped >ideas about a campaign of IN with God being a sick-in-the-head Child who >dreamed up the Symphony. . . Does it center around a hospital in the Boston area? ;) yours, Jason, fan of '80s t.v. * * * * * "I'm addicted to stress that's the way that I get things done if I'm not underpressure then I sleep too long and I hang around like a bum and I think I'm going nowhere and that makes me nervous..." Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:10:22 -0500 From: "Tafka J." Subject: Re: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) At 4:25 PM -0400 06/17/00, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >Does it center around a hospital in the Boston area? ;) *Guessing* "St. Elsewhere?" No, not really. I mean, really. We're talking about the sort of Kid that went from being Will Robinson, to become Lennier*. (* It gets much worse if I dwelve into the sickness that is 'Little House on Z'Ha'Dum', but that sorta drags this topic WAY off.) Anyway, this child would be sleeping serenly _somewhere_. Most likely the Higher Heavens. Idealy, you'd use this in some Mega-Epic style of campaign where Humanity finds God, and decides that it would be better off putting the warped kid to the blade. This would fall under the pseudo header of: God will gladly pass on the responsibility to those who can finally put it out of it's misery. That, or I've ignored the Commandment _not_ to play In Nomine backwards**. (** Which I'm guessing is a remenant of the translation from INS/MV.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = tafkaj@thrifty.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:10:08 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Blandine & Beleth as Ethereals? (WAS: Things my friends send me...) >At 4:25 PM -0400 06/17/00, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >>Does it center around a hospital in the Boston area? ;) > > *Guessing* "St. Elsewhere?" Bingo. [For those without the necessary levels of Pop Culture knowledge - 'St. Elsewhere' was a hospital drama that was, in the final episode, revealed to be the fantasies of an autistic child playing with a snowglobe. Seriously.] Ending an off-topic sojourn, J * * * * * "I'm addicted to stress that's the way that I get things done if I'm not underpressure then I sleep too long and I hang around like a bum and I think I'm going nowhere and that makes me nervous..." Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:53:21 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Question about the speed of souls >>It is the truth, sadly enough.<< >>It doesn't overly affect me, as I'd intended to pick up GURPS In Nomine anyhow, but that's why I asked about the 'legality' of reverse engineering GURPS IN mechanics back to IN, since some of the new Canon *is* Mechanics (like the extremely longly awaited Grigori Resonance.)<< I'd planned on picking up GURPS IN, but that doesn't mean it'll become canon in my campaign. >>for GURPS, not our game. It makes it hard to not feel second class compared to our eight hundred pound brother, returned home from college to take over the neighborhood again<< Unfortunately, it not only feels like we're the second class citizens, but I'm starting to wonder why IN seems to have managed to be cursed with so many things - false starts and the Revelations cycle, to name two, yet GURPS can codify material that isn't yet codified for the actual IN game itself. Mind you, I steal from GURPS liberally. That doesn't make it canon. Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:23:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> GURPS IN Canon #1: Anything that's going to be 'ported back is stuff that is what I would have said ANYWAY as LE. E.g., something needed to be clarified for the GURPS crowd, such as the souls thing; nobody'd asked it before, but, surprise-surprise, I'd have answered the same thing. #1a: Not _everything_ is going to be 'ported back. For example, GURPS had to disassociate Forces and attributes. Try to do that in IN proper, and I laugh in your face. Observe: hahahahaha. For example two: There was no way to cost the Mercurians and Elohim of Eli cogently until I came up with the bright idea of warping the Gadgeteer advantage; since that's done up pretty strictly for the GURPS crowd who need a special cost for everything, it's hardly going to come back into IN. Even if I am obscenely proud of coming up with that little hack. #1b: The specific canon _changes_ (as opposed to clarifications and fiddly little bits) were run past me (duh) and SJ, at a minimum, and were clearly noted on the playtest, to my recollection. #1c: I had stated from the first that this was a dry run for 2/e, on this list. I'm very sorry if people either didn't see or didn't remember that, but there was advance warning. #2: Since it was written by the LE, why, yes, I happened to think about the various things I said there. (In particular, the souls bit -- Walter originally was suggesting having it be "a few minutes." I nixed that for two reasons: first, play issues; I didn't want it to be _assured_ that someone would show up in a timely fashion to blow the whistle on whatever killed him. Second, mood; second paragraph from the bottom on p. 8 of _The Marches_. Rationale for having soul-packets making their way through the Symphony: pagewhatevertheheck from the main book, where it talks about Trauma and how it takes non-Malakim a few _hours_ to "re-assemble" next to their Hearts. And, finally, the duration that it takes _anyone_ to show there is _entirely_ up to the GM. It's not a "roll ze dice, abide by the results" thing. Geeze, I'm flamed for putting power into the GM's hands?? The answer is STILL "GM Fiat." It just so happens that GM Fiat specifically includes the options for "right away" up to "thousands of years.") #3: Steve Jackson (you remember him, right? The owner of SJGames?) was the editor for this monstrosity. While I could go over every little nit with him and see if he did indeed register it, give it an hour of devoted brow-wrinkling thought, and solumnly sign off on it, I doubt that he would like me very much for that. I have to assume that he went over it, saw nothing that he didn't _want_ in canon, and passed on it when he sent the blessed thing to the printer's. (Oh, yeah, and one paragraph of Vapula was added at _his_ insistance. Somewhat over my, "But this is all kind of redundant if you think about it" mild protests, as it happened. However, Jo Hart and I kicked the original suggestion around and made it much more interesting. O:> ) #3a: SJ already knew, and okayed, the Grig resonance and dissonance. The resonance was fixed _long_ ago, in anticipation of a book going onto the schedule that so far has eluded it. #4: Instead of this knee-jerk "Oh, woe, we're GURPSified, we're all going to have to play GURPS now to understand the game!" griping, perhaps people could go through their playtest files, and/or the book when it finally arrives in their hot little hands (no, don't bother buying it if you don't already want it, there's hardly _that_ much of interest in there if you aren't a completist or a GURPSian) -- and find every single little fiddly bit that they would have raised a ruckus about "if only they'd known that it was going to become, horrors, canon!" Then I can lay all doubts to rest by going through and yes/noing whether the detail is actually a change, or one that will stay safely in its little GURPS ghetto. (Hint: game mechanics peculiar to GURPS stay with GURPS. Flavortext and _clarifications_ (some based on GURPS game mechanics because they described the thing _so_ well, but few of those) are likely to be 'ported back.) #4a: Specific changes which were posted as such and ought to be errata for 1/e now: Habbalah of Death. Gabriel's Distinctions 1 and 3 (already changed in Sup3). Vapula paragraph added (already added to Sup4). #4b: Apparent throwaway line which was anything but: Archangel of Song. #5: While you're looking at it, check out the organization -- is this better than the main book? (That's the other part that's likely to find its way into IN 2/e -- the organization. Because gods know that 1/e needs some.) Geeze, people, you'd think GIN had Eli Falling or something... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:31:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> GIN, aGIN (Re: Question about the speed of souls) At 8:45 AM -0400 6/17/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >That's probably where I'm the least happy with this. We've patiently >waited for Grigori Canon since, literally, the Main Book. And it >seemed that Canon was imminent when they wrote up GURPS IN, so it >behooved them to put the Grigori in GURPS IN. > >But whatever project was supposed to have the Grigori in it hasn't >happened, and doesn't seem likely to happen in the near future. And we're supposed to take it _out_ somehow? I mean, yeah, it's a rough thing, and I'm not happy that the other book hasn't gotten onto the schedule, but man -- compare that to the uproar otherwise... And frankly, the Grig stuff (all 3 or so paragraphs of it that's not cribbed from the IN main book, mostly resonance and dissonance) _not_ being there would tick off enough GURPS people that, y'know, I might have felt obligated to include the GURPS mechanics in the IN book they showed up in, otherwise. I think we can all agree that _that's_ suboptimal too. I'll see if I can browbeat the exerpt-making people into exerpting that page for the sample PDF file, okay? Then people can do their back-converting to their hearts' content... (Heck, it's what I did with the blasted Geas mechanics from FotM, that kept being refered to, so that people wouldn't _have_ to buy a whole book they didn't want for a few measly paragraphs...) To repeat: we thought that the Grig-containing book was going to be out before GIN or close to it. We were, as it turns out, wrong. GIN was, however, far too far along the production process to take it _out_ again when it became more problematic about the timing of the Grigori-book. Mind, it's not like there's suddenly going to be a whole adventure based on knowing that stuff -- unless it's in the book which we'd thought was on the schedule in the first place... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:29:45 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> Midean IN Ok, i'd just like to say that this is NOT a movie/book casting thing. So please oh mighty ArchAngel Beth don't boot me off of the s#bscri#e list. I watched a movie a while ago, nightbreed, by clive barker, and at first i thought it would be good as a side game in a certain other system, but now i think about it i think that Midean would work real well in IN. A demon, say a calabite, possing as a psychologist, hears about the place where ethereal spirits still exist on earth. He sets about searching for the place, has no luck, but does stumble apon a human who seems intrinsically linked to the whole shibang. But the human escapes, meets another human, who is high in ethereal forces, and he also is linked to the location. The demon tracks the guy down, but the other guy goes loopy. Deamon 'talks' to the loopy guy, loopy guy dies.. The orriginal human escapes once more, finds the location of midean. Then after that.. well thats up to the players to decide, will they help the cops and 'freedom' loonies burn midean? Will they help the monsters? What if the monsters arnt really Ethereals but are the grigori and the nephallim?? I'd like some feed back if at all possible from you guys so as that i can iron out the little problems that might crop up in play. As for the Beleth/Blandine being jumped up Ethereals, that’s worrying I mean.. if they are then they made the transposition to Celestial not good.. not good at all.. if they can go from Ethereal to Celestial, then what about after Celestial? To GODDESS hood? Okies, thanks for whatever you can help with in advance. Mucho thankyo. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1680 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.