From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 19 09:40:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20980 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:40:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA00033 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:36:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:36:21 -0500 Message-Id: <200006191436.JAA00033@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1681 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1681 In this digest: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon IN> A Christmas angel, how sweet ... Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon IN> Re: Ho ho ho. Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon IN> Yeah, yeah, I know this one's pretty stupid... Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End Re: IN> Yahtz-- wait, there's only 3 dice. Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:10:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Elizabeth McCoy wrote: Boy you managed to miss the whole point of the objections with your list/rant. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:40:59 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> A Christmas angel, how sweet ... I really, really like this. Especially the part about the two kinds of demons: those who assume a Christmas angel must be a Mercurian, and those who know better and decide to skip the whole thing ... And the ongoing problems with Mammon. (I suspect there might be problems with Beleth as well; I'm sure children's "visions of sugar-plums" are something she likes to mess with if she gets the chance.) And the fact that he doesn't want Yves' attunement, which is quite sensible of him, since he is a Malakite (unable to ignore evil) and also a Servitor of Christopher (unable to harm children). Janet Anderson ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 15:34:18 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon From: "David Edelstein" > Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > Boy you managed to miss the whole point of the objections with your > list/rant. Not in the copy of her message that *I* got, she didn't. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Ho ho ho. > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:33:45 -0500 > From: Earl Wajenberg > Subject: Re: IN> Ho ho ho. > > So how does Nicolas the Angel get along with St. > Nicholas, > 4th-century Turkish bishop, who is the historical > root of > the image? > > Earl > (Making up as I go along) Quite well, actually. You see, Nicolas, while a reliever, spent some time working with the Saint. After Nicolas fledged, back in the 1700s, he went into Christopher's service to do generic Christmas work. Lots of kids out there who needed a discreet miracle or two for the holidays. When Mammon started warping the concept of St. Nick, the Saint got a little perturbed. When his angelic friend found out about this, he was naturally ready to do a little counter-programming. This is partially also why he's not big on wiping out most of the ethereal Santas: their message may not be religious, but by God they're _trying_ to give a little joy to kids, and oddly enough they mostly look like his old buddy... (/Making up as I go along) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of The Song Practically States Outright that Santa is a Malakite, For Crying Out Loud __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 16:56:37 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 9:23 PM -0400 6/17/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >#3a: SJ already knew, and okayed, the Grig resonance and dissonance. >The resonance was fixed _long_ ago, in anticipation of a book going >onto the schedule that so far has eluded it. viciously> Note that this, more than anything else, was the core of my personal distaste, and it is an emotional reaction. And it comes from this: The Grigori are mentioned *as* *significantly* as every other Choir in the Main Book. But no Resonance is listed for them, either as description or as Main Text. They have an evocotive picture. They have a feeling of being on the edge, of being somehow major. In the Main Book, I reiterate, so this has happened since day one of official IN Canon. But that thread was never followed up. The logical place -- a listing in the Angelic Player's Guide -- didn't have Grigori information. The Revelations Cycle didn't have Grigori information. (*Despite* the theory that the Grigori were an Angelic reserve for Armageddon, which is what the RevCycle was about.) Despite the fact that there are provisions for playing Angels who were around for the original Fall and for the Casting Out of the Grigori, we still don't have a Canon description of what their Resonance, Dissonance Conditions and mindset are. This is, in advertising terms, a Lead. A powerful one. One that really punches the emotional index of the payoff up many notches. Its payoff would *have* to be significant. It is literally What We Have Been Waiting For. That payoff is in GURPS In Nomine. I understand that it was meant to be on the schedule a long while back. I understand it was SJ's call. I understand it's no one's *fault* that the payoff is in a GURPS book, and not in an In Nomine book. But the payoff is *still* in a GURPS book, not an In Nomine book. With a justification that boils down to "well, we have to be sure people can play Grigori in GURPS when they can play them in In Nomine." I listed (in various messages) what I thought SJGames could do to rectify this -- or at least try to make up for it. Release a Pyramid Article or PDF on the Web Site with Grigori information in In Nomine terms, not GURPS terms. (Heck, release it the day before GURPS IN's official shipping date, if you really want to get back some lost perception.) Give explicit permission for Grigori information to be Reverse Engineered, then post that reverse engineering on the INC. Announce some official product involving the Grigori for the near future. But *something.* Instead, we're getting unofficial, implicit permission to reverse engineer on individual bases the Grigori, and regret that the schedule didn't work out, and hopes for the success of GURPS In Nomine. Well, I want GURPS In Nomine to succeed. I want it to sell a huge number of copies. I want SJGames to have to make up seperate arrangements to print this massively selling book in the numbers people are demanding. I want the royalties to pay for Elizabeth's and Walter's new massive ranch house overlooking the lake. I want the movie rights to outsell Mission Impossible 3. But I still *really* wish the Grigori payoff had been ours instead of in GURPS. I really do. >#4b: Apparent throwaway line which was anything but: Archangel of Song. Wait. What? *What?* I'll say that again. *What?* - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 16:57:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Prodigal wrote: > Not in the copy of her message that *I* got, she didn't. I'm pretty sure I got the same copy as you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:16:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 4:56 PM -0400 6/18/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 9:23 PM -0400 6/17/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> >>#3a: SJ already knew, and okayed, the Grig resonance and dissonance. >>The resonance was fixed _long_ ago, in anticipation of a book going >>onto the schedule that so far has eluded it. >viciously> > >Note that this, more than anything else, was the core of my personal >distaste, and it is an emotional reaction. And it comes from this: Quite frankly, I'm about as unhappy that the Great Grigori Grand Appearance didn't happen in a timely fashion as any of y'all. For _many_ reasons, including that I am gnashing my teeth on some stuff that was intended for that which I'd _love_ to bounce all over and giggle and watch your faces as you read the stuff... But, drat it, I _can't_ change time. I _can't_ go back and un-do the "big payoff" (which was put into GIN so that the GURPS people could share in it!). I can't do _anything_ about that, and after working on the blasted book for a year and a half, giving up all face-to-face gaming over it, being forced to write mechanics for a couple chapters I thought Walter was going to do (gods, I hate mechanics), having the damned playtest hanging over our heads while I was in the hospital recovering from the quasi-emergency C-section, for gods' sakes... Come _on_, people -- it's Murphy's Law in action. But it's it's just a game. And it's also... ...a manuscript that has seen the death of a cat who was the closest thing to a child that one can get without it growing up into a human (and I _have_ a child here, and I know whereof I speak), all-day-gods-I- was-miserable nausea, a first draft that we _thought_ was to spec and landed back on our doorstep with a commandment to "make it more In Nomine and less generic," OVER 300 (iirc) DIFFERENT NEW POWERS THAT HAD TO BE COSTED (the scars still show!), more arguements with my co-author than our marriage has generated to date, pressure to finish the damned thing while our premature daughter was in the hospital, a final draft that had to be extensively proofed for details at the very last minute (which got in the way of my final proof of Sup3 and meant I stayed up till 3am on S3, and this, on top of a new baby), moving house... NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO HATE THAT MANUSCRIPT MORE THAN I AM. Which is why if the blasted thing doesn't sell, I may well go postal. Even if it is just a bloody game. >But the payoff is *still* in a GURPS book, not an In Nomine book. >With a justification that boils down to "well, we have to be sure >people can play Grigori in GURPS when they can play them in In >Nomine." No, not _have_ to be sure. _Had_ to be sure, because at the _time_, the payoff was supposed to be very close together. See, that's the thing. It's not there as a slam to the IN people. It's there because _at the time_, it was thought to be necessary for the GURPS people not to feel slammed. And then the book was too far along to have it yanked and the page-count and layout messed with. Now, if you want to take up the various ideas you list -- PDF of the game mechanics, whatever -- with the sjgames@io.com (or whatever it is) address, feel free. I don't have _that_ authority. (Just, dear gods, don't take it up with SJ himself.) Put together an off-list petition of the people who truly think it's worth griping about, and I'll forward it on to Alain when it's nice and tidy. >But I still *really* wish the Grigori payoff had been ours instead of >in GURPS. I really do. So do I. You have NO ****ing idea how much I wish that the Grig stuff were coming out RIGHT NOW if not yesterday. None. I can't even _begin_ to braindump it here. Which makes this sort of discussion all the more frustrating to me. I have no control over the schedule. Nada. Zip. Once the Superior books were given the green light by Alain and SJ, I was able to assign the _order_ of them (based, I admit it, roughly on which authors could do which pieces when), but _when_ the books are going to show up? Not my call. Line Editor: All the work, none of the power. O:p >>#4b: Apparent throwaway line which was anything but: Archangel of Song. > >Wait. What? > >*What?* > >I'll say that again. *What?* Which what? It's a stray comment. Think of it as something to make the GURPSheads just as ancy as everyone around here. Pretend you never heard it. Here, have some peril-sensitive sunglasses. Ignore the book, it'll go away. Really. They just get mechanics. The book I'm thinking of, oh, it gets mechanics all right -- but that'll be the _least_ it gets. Whenever it gets onto the gods-be-damned schedule. (Who, me, frustrated? Whatever gave you _that_ idea?) Just out of curiosity, was the mechanics of that _really_ all you thought of when you thought of "big payoff re: Grigori"? Really? - --Beth, highly frustrated, typically low on sleep, dealing with a baby who has been having crankytimes, and fretting over a deadline for something _else_ not having to do with published work for SJGames. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:35:56 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 6:16 PM -0400 6/18/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Quite frankly, I'm about as unhappy that the Great Grigori Grand >Appearance didn't happen in a timely fashion as any of y'all. For >_many_ reasons, including that I am gnashing my teeth on some >stuff that was intended for that which I'd _love_ to bounce all >over and giggle and watch your faces as you read the stuff... See, I believe that. Believe it or not, Elizabeth, I don't blame you for any of this. Really, I'm *not* pushing blame on anyone. If anything, I see this as something the In Nomine folks, from you to me to everybody on this list can bemoan together, without it being personal. I understand the stuff you had control over and the stuff that doesn't. >Come _on_, people -- it's Murphy's Law in action. But it's > >it's just a game. Well, sure. But it's also something that means a lot to me (and others, including you ) in ways that GURPS doesn't. I wouldn't have devoted as much time and thought to this game, to stuff I wanted to write up and share because I thought it would be cool, and to debate and conversation on this list if it didn't mean a lot to me, game or not. >NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO HATE THAT MANUSCRIPT MORE THAN I AM. Is it all right if I hope to like the manuscript? In a way, it's almost the victim in this -- I have no interest in actively disliking something because it's GURPS. Fer cry eye, I *like* GURPS. Not nearly to the degree I like In Nomine, but it's still something I can enjoy. Heck, GURPS Mage: The Ascension proved the value of doing these cross-adaptions. That doesn't mean I can't kick (and express that kick) at whatever fates, reasons or what have you that the aforementioned payoff is in GURPS IN, not whatever Grigori book you're referring to. >Now, if you want to take up the various ideas you list -- PDF of >the game mechanics, whatever -- with the sjgames@io.com (or >whatever it is) address, feel free. I very well may, at that. Because I don't think anyone at SJGames wants to alienate the hardcore IN wonks. We hardcore IN wonks spend money, in hardcore wonky ways. >(Just, dear gods, don't take it up with SJ himself.) Do I look like I want to commit career-suicide? >Put together an off-list petition of the people who truly think it's >worth griping about, and I'll forward it on to Alain when it's nice >and tidy. Right-o! Folks with comments or thoughts on the issue, or things that need to be included beyond my last couple of Grigori-rant commentary stuff please let me know. I'll post the form of it in a couple of days, and folks can then let me know if they want to be on said petition. >Which makes this sort of discussion all the more frustrating to me. >I have no control over the schedule. Nada. Zip. I don't mean to be slamming you in the discussion. I'm not interested in slamming people, especially ones who don't disagree with me. >They just get mechanics. The book I'm thinking of, oh, it gets >mechanics all right -- but that'll be the _least_ it gets. I can believe that, but the Magic Bullet, the Payoff, the "here's what you've been waiting for" will be blunted by the mechanics in GURPS IN. Will advertising/building suspense be impossible thereby? No. But it'll be harder to generate excitement for it because the built in advertising -- the one that says "HERE'S HARD DATA ON THE GRIGORI AT *LAST*" -- can't fall into place for it. Premature payoff is an ugly thing. > Just out of curiosity, was the mechanics of that _really_ >all you thought of when you thought of "big payoff re: Grigori"? >Really? Of course not. Which is more part of the problem than not, because that's *still* the payoff that's coming out. Knowing that "at some time" there'll be a much better Grigori resource doesn't really help. In part because we've known *that* since 1997. With the mechanics comes the Resonance and Dissonance conditions of the Grigori, and (I imagine) the difference between Bright and Fallen Grigori, and those give us the content of the Grigori's character, the attitudes of them, the core of playing them and therefore relating to them. All stuff I *have* been salivating for, because I've wanted to use them very much. And now (after reverse-engineering) I will, which will diminish my hunger for the aforementioned much better Grigori resource. Am I blaming you for this? Nope. I believe your frustration about it, very much. But I can rant about Kronos and his evil ways, and bemoan what I think were bad scheduling decisions, and... um.... I seem to have gotten distracted from my thesis. In conclusion, buy War Bonds. Buy them where you work, or bank. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:23:20 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon First, I have every IN book published to date. Like, I suspect, the majority of the folks on this list (except for Em, who only allows the main rule book). Even without the new canon, I would have bought GURPS IN anyway. I have nothing at all against GURPS as a system - there's a lot of good in it. Heck. I'm using GURPS Illuminati as a resource for my next IN campaign. (But I'm running it with IN rules, not GURPS rules.) (And I tend to buy everything related to a game I'm running if I have the cash at the time and can afford it. "Complete the set" is not merely a male vice...) I've been debating an IN/Cyberpunk cross, that has now mutated into IN/Mission Impossible. I'm a huge fan of swiping stuff from anywhere to make a better game. Note: IN is not the only game I play. At the moment, however, it's the only one I GM - the one that brought me out of a ten-year GMing hiatus, and I'm having a blast with it. _However_. Eric stated things nicely. I feel gypped. Now, mind you, I may not feel so bad about it once I get my hands on the actual book. I purposely didn't mess with playtesting GURPS IN - I, apparently incorrectly, assumed that it was GURPS, not IN, and therefore wasn't necessarily canon. Sort of like GURPS Traveller is not Traveller canon. Boy, was I wrong! No, Elizabeth, I'm not saying it's your fault. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with it. I'm not going to drop my IN campaigns over it, either. And I hope the silly book sells a ton and ropes in a whole series of new folks to the IN line. I don't think it will, but I can cross my fingers, toes, and eyes, and hope so. But, Eric, when you get that petition together, I suspect I'll be happy to sign it. Regards, Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:19:22 -0500 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" To: Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 5:16 PM Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon > Come _on_, people -- it's Murphy's Law in action. No it isn't. Not really. In Nomine had the huge delay at initial release. It had a long stretch, at a crucial time, without a Line Editor. Now the Big Payoff is hopelessly delayed. While the Big Payoff is being delayed, the amount of effort and time you describe is being put into what is, for IN players, a marginal product. The badly needed 2nd Edition is indefinitely delayed. With this kind of track record, just blowing it off as "Murphy's Law" is a cop-out. There is a pattern here, and for someone who really likes the game, it's very disturbing. What it says is that In Nomine is not receiving the level of support necessary for it to be a success. It may be so financially marginal that it doesn't deserve any more support than that, but then I'd appreciate a straight forward acknowledgement of that. No, I don't think it's your fault, Beth, but that does not change the dismaying trend. With the evidence at hand, I'm guessing that IN is on its last legs. If GURPS IN doesn't produce the bounce that is hoped for, that's going to be it. Frankly, from the position of SJG, it only makes sense. Even if IN isn't *losing* money, it's tying up resources that could be used to develop a line that might do significantly better. In all, the denials coming out of Austin that IN is safe are starting to sound like corporate speak. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:49:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Yeah, yeah, I know this one's pretty stupid... ...but I _like_ stupid, sometimes. :) Morgan (FAW) Brinoricum, Balseraph of Death, Demon of Legos Corporeal Forces:4 Strength: 12 Agility: 4 Ethereal Forces: 2 Intelligence: 3 Precision: 5 Celestial Forces: 4 Will: 11 Perception: 5 Vessels: Human Male/1 Role: Bruce Naismith Orville-Cummings (international lawyer-playboy)/4, Status/4 Skills: Artistry (painting)/1, Dodge/3, Emote/1, Fast-Talk/2, Fighting/1, Knowledge (LEGO Lore)/4, Languages (Latin)/1, Savoir-Faire/2, Ranged Weapon (pistol)/1 Songs: Attraction (Corporeal)/3 Charm (Celestial)/3, Harmony (Ethereal)/3, Motion (Celestial)/1, Shields (Corporeal)/3 Attunements: Demon of Legos Word Forces: 2 Special Attunement: As Demon of Legos, Brinoricum can move around Lego pieces - one at a time, at a top speed of an inch a second, and only within his field of vision - without touching them (on a successful Precision roll). Ever have a bad day? Brinoricum was once an up-and-coming Balseraph of Nybbas, living out the bad life on earth as a well-paid, and severely nasty, lawyer for one of the major British tabloids. Unfortunately, he found an angelic Tether in the course of his duties, and managed on his own hook to take it down. His Superior was, of course, pleased (Brin had made sure that the TV crews got good coverage of the "gas leak"), and promised big things for the new fair-haired boy. Flushed with pride (and greed), Brin kept pushing up and up what he thought he'd get: a Captaincy at the very least, he was sure! Needless to say, he became utterly insufferable to his colleagues. The actual gift of a Force and a job in Hollywood was a distinct letdown. Really unfortunately for Brin, he ran into Lucifer for the first time soon after. He rashly petitioned for his boon, and complained and complained and complained. Even for a Balseraph, Brin has a inflated view of himself, and thought nothing of letting the Lightbearer know exactly shabbily he'd been treated. When Brin finally finished venting, Lucifer thought for a moment, then offered the demon a choice: either he could keep his Prince's gift, or else trade in a Force for a change in Superiors and a Word. And not just any Word: a Word that would make him legendary among every denizen of Hell. The idiot agreed. Lucifer kept his bargain. Brin lost a Force: an Ethereal one, not the Corporeal he got from Nybbas. He got a new boss: Saminga. And he got a Word: Legos, to be exact. And Brinoricum is certainly famous among demons: he's famous for what happens when you waste Lucifer's valuable time with complaints about his handpicked lieutenants. Kronos is seriously considering making his picture a definition of the word "twit" for all future Infernal dictionaries. Needless to say, Saminga wasn't too pleased to get a totally useless Word-Bound, but Lucifer must have asked him to make sure of the message, because things for Brin got worse from there. Brinoricum has not received the Balseraph of Death Servitor Attunement to replace Media's, and won't until he demonstrates that his Word can serve Saminga's. In other words, Brin now has to work out some way to kill people with Legos. Lots of people, for preference, and Brin's not doing too well. In fact, his antics are so incompetent that even Saminga's starting to find them amusing. Brinoricum hasn't actually learned his lesson yet, of course. Being a Balseraph, he's deluded himself that his Word is really quite keen and an asset to Death. He's also sure that all other demons are frightened of his new-found Word's power. They're not, of course: they've just all decided that if Lucifer and Saminga find this useless waste of Forces amusing, then it's probably best to let him self-destruct on his own. Besides, one thing that Brin is good at is hitting people. Still, the sudden arrival of a party of angels in Brin's home area might be a blessing in disguise. He might be not much sport for a Malakite, but a Word-bound trophy is a trophy… __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jun 2000 05:01:55 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Endgame: The Beginning of the End On 17 Jun 2000 10:01:29 -0700 Casca wrote: >On Fri, 16 June 2000, "-=|horsefly|=-" wrote: >> a chance at Redemption) and the revelation of Eli before the Seraphim >> Council and the resulting changes in Dominic and Khalid [*especially* >> Khalid!]). >Given the Word of Faith, how could Khalid -not- act this way? And Dominic I the fact that Khalid would react so predictably doesn't detract from the fact that he does exactly what we expect. >see as a latter-day Saul of Tarsus. at least in this sequence, sure. >> yes, true. same with me and my writing. i'd like to see more in >> future chapters about the Creation Tether in Hell and those three Habbalah >> who approached Eli already. question about the "Third Messiah" thing-- >It's coming. :) I'm probably going to toss off a short fiction piece first, >just so I don't 'lose the groove', as it were. But I fully intend to do an in- glad to hear it! >depth exploration of Eliism and the effects of New Jerusalem upon the power >structure of Hell. ooooh, nelley, i can't wait for the Princes' opinions of that (beyond the 'and the Princes of Hell did not act, for they were scared shitless,' a priceless line in and of itself ). will there be archangelic reactions as well? i'm betting Michael would be chafing to use that tether as a tactical advantage; ditto Laurence. there's gotta be a reason why they wouldn't. or i want to see the reprucussions if Eli is allowing the tactical advantages to be utilized. [snip] >Why do you think Moses was one of the two figures (the other being Elijah, a >kick-ass prophet in his own right) who appeard at Jesus' Transfiguration? sure, that makes sense :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:53:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ryan Macklin Subject: Re: IN> Yahtz-- wait, there's only 3 dice. David Wood wrote: >I was never part of the original play tests, but we have a special >house-name for rolling 333: we call it "Invoking Phil." It's a non-event, >noted and celebrated for absolutely nothing of interest happening at that >particular moment -- a moment significant in its triviality, a minor >victory >for the Forces of Apathy. My house rule for a 333 is called "Intervention By Some Guy" - which came as a witty GM-moving-along-plot move once when they were completely stuck. One rolled a 333 for something, and some random person on the street intervened. This person would then always be gone - no permanent NPCs were introduced in this manner. It was half satyrical/half cinematic. And it wasn't always a pro-player thing. A 333 could mean someone shouts "hey! what are you doing!" at unstealthy players, causing armed guards to investigate. Or just as likely cause an armed guard to be alseep at the controls. And just like the other interventions, you don't have to appear in-person to intervene. Oddly enough, this was the most common intervention we ever had. Rev. Ryan Macklin Ofanite of Apathy Demon of Delusions ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:37:16 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon >Even if IN isn't *losing* money, it's tying up resources that could be used >to develop a line that might do significantly better. Such as? SJ only really has GURPS and IN as RPG products. I guess you could count Tribes but to my mind although fun is not a RPG in the classic sense. I do not feel taking up a new line would achieve anything, there are probably more RPG's than the market needs, or from a corporate point of view can be sustained. Penetration of the market by IN seems patchy to me. In the UK it is rare to see IN at any convention. AFAIK the only MIB's in the UK who write and run IN are myself and Hilary. We have both tried running IN at conventions in the UK, only at Gen Con UK does it seem to attract sufficient players. In Ireland (which has a population less than that of London) IN features at just about every convention and is reasonably well supported. There is no evidence that a new line would do any better. >In all, the denials coming out of Austin that IN is safe are starting to >sound like corporate speak. In is probably about as safe as any RPG line, and we all know the profit margins are very tight. Possible exceptions being VtM, CoC, AD&D and Lot5R which all seem to be doing rather nicely at present. I certainly hope IN is safe and will continue to be so. From my point of view it does not matter that much whether bits of IN canon appear in a GURPS book or anywhere else. The important thing is that the canon is available should I want to make use of it. Even more important is that IN stuff sells well, a GURPS version of IN may help. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:21:59 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 12:37 PM +0100 6/19/00, Omentide wrote: > >In is probably about as safe as any RPG line, and we all know the >profit margins are very tight. Possible exceptions being VtM, CoC, >AD&D and Lot5R which all seem to be doing rather nicely at present. Last I knew AD&D isn't doing as well, but that's the natural lull before a new edition. On the other hand, I've seen lots of "pre-reserve D&D 3ed" signs up at the two FLGS, and I even saw one at a B. Dalton not too long ago. Lead to Payoff. However, I think In Nomine isn't necessarily about to be lost. And if there's one thing about Role Playing Games in the this era of gaming, it's that they crop back up Zombie like whenever you think they're dead. (For God's sakes, Space: 1889 is coming back with a new company, and Tunnels and Trolls is still in print. Tunnels and Freakin' *Trolls.*) But, clearly for the line to be *healthy,* new stuff has to come out. Which is why I'd like GURPS IN to sell well -- one, because I want it to be cool. Two, because I want it to dispel any thoughts of In Nomine being a cursed line. And then, I want to see the Cool New Products alluded to. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:46:16 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Omentide wrote: > Such as? SJ only really has GURPS and IN as RPG products. GURPS has several different lines (notably Traveller, the upcoming Transhuman Space, and they're working on others), and a lot of non-RPG lines. > There is no evidence that a new line would do any better. You are engaging in the wishful thinking of denial. If IN isn't making a sufficient profit, it makes no sense for them to keep publishing it "because we don't _know_ that putting out something else will make more money." Like most game companies, SJG has limited financial resources, but there ARE things more likely to make a profit than IN. Any new RPG is basically a gamble of sorts, and -- it is sad to say this, but let's face facts -- IN NOMINE HAS FAILED! By that I mean it's never going to be more than a niche product. Sorry, but GURPS IN may give a small, temporary boost, but it's not going to spike IN sales enough to rejuvenate the entire line. (Hey, I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but I think it's delusional to think that's going to happen.) IN _might_ be making enough money to sustain a small number of releases per year, and SJG _might_ be devoted enough to the game that they'll keep putting out occasional products (and I still like IN enough that I'll continue to write for it, if given the opportunity), but just from a bottom-line POV, In Nomine has failed. Games that don't sell well get discontinued - -- that's the nature of the market. The only exceptions are games that are truly a labor of love, such that companies (usually consisting of a couple of people) are willing to keep putting out supplements even at a loss, and for those you only see a product every year or two, if you're lucky. > In is probably about as safe as any RPG line, It's about as safe as any RPG line that's not selling well. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:41:11 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon David, > > Such as? SJ only really has GURPS and IN as RPG products. > >GURPS has several different lines (notably Traveller, the upcoming >Transhuman Space, and they're working on others), and a lot of non-RPG >lines. The various GURPS lines are still GURPS. Non RPG lines are a different animals as we both know, which is why I wrote RPG products. > > There is no evidence that a new line would do any better. > >You are engaging in the wishful thinking of denial. If IN isn't making a >sufficient profit, it makes no sense for them to keep publishing it >"because we don't _know_ that putting out something else will make more >money." No denial. I know fully well that any product that isn't making sufficient profit will not survive. Most new RPG's struggle, few survive, my point was simply that IN already has a sales base (although not vast), a new product has to start from zero. >Like most game companies, SJG has limited financial resources, >but there ARE things more likely to make a profit than IN. Agree. I simply doubt that a new RPG line will be highly profitable. > Any new RPG >is basically a gamble of sorts, and -- it is sad to say this, but let's >face facts -- IN NOMINE HAS FAILED! By that I mean it's never going to >be more than a niche product. Depends on the definition of failure. Runequest is a niche product, as is SLA Industries, Blue Planet, Ars Magica, Pendragon, Star Wars, Shadowrun, etc. Most RPGs are niche products in relation to AD&D, and even that has its problems. In the bigger picture of gaming, all role playing games are niche products. >Sorry, but GURPS IN may give a small, temporary boost, but it's not going >to spike IN sales enough to rejuvenate the entire line. (Hey, I'd love to >be proven wrong on this, but I think it's delusional to think that's going >to happen.) Probably true. >IN _might_be making enough money to sustain a small number of releases per >year, and SJG _might_ be devoted enough to the game that they'll keep >putting out occasional products (and I still like IN enough that I'll >continue to write for it, if given the opportunity), but just from a >bottom-line POV, In Nomine has failed. Games that don't sell well get >discontinued -- that's the nature of the market. Sure IN has failed to become as popular as the likes of AD&D, VtM and CoC. Did anyone ever think it would become that popular? I certianly did not. If you apply that sort of crirteria to measure success then just about every line is a failure. > > In is probably about as safe as any RPG line, > >It's about as safe as any RPG line that's not selling well. Which is pretty much all RPG lines. Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1681 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.