From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 19 22:07:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05341 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:07:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA07662 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:06:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:06:37 -0500 Message-Id: <200006200306.WAA07662@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1683 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1683 In this digest: IN> Seedpack Re: IN> Seedpack RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> Seedpack Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) IN> Toddling IN online games IN> Weird Plot Idea-Adapting Tolkien Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> Yeah, yeah, I know this one's pretty stupid... Re: IN> A Christmas angel, how sweet ... Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "David M. Barr" Subject: IN> Seedpack I am just thinking (always a dangerous thing to do when working at the Tech support desk). From watching the list for a while, one of the things I have noticed is a lot of people saying, in a nutshell, "Fiction Good. Adventures Bad." So. Would there be any market / point to putting together a book of IN fiction? Ideally (in my mind), fiction that came with plot seeds worked into the stories, or with some addition story related seeds at the end of each story? Essentially, what i am suggesting is more than a book of fiction, but a book of plot seeds, set in a fictional structure. Does anyone else think that this is a good idea, or am i totally wrong? would not be the first time. - -daiv ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:26:45 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Seedpack There might be, but SJG isn't allowed to. Licensing problem. Not allowed to do fiction. A book of plot seeds that just-so-happened to feature a story wrapped around them might be doable, but I would question the ethics. Sean _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:38:55 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon Patrick wrote: > See, this is how opinions differ. I think FoB is rotten, having > recenntly tried > to run it. It's contrived, it's clunky, and there's too strong an > emphasis on > combat. I have some fond memories of Feast of Blades. I was running it as a demo game of IN for a group of infernal characters. Being (most of) the player's first attempt at IN I created the PCs myself. One of them was a Calabite of Fire, strong as an elephant (Corp Forces 6), thick as a brick (Eth Forces 1) with its Discord being a level 6 Vulnerability to water. First of all it was winter and it was snowing. While I ruled that the snow itself didn't hurt the character, as soon as it melted (from his body heat) it did. The Calabite dropped his cigarette lighter into the snow (can't remember how, now) and had to give up a high level geas to the parties Free Lilim to return it to him (he didn't have gloves and wasn't willing to stick his hand in partially melted snow. After that he stole a car and had lots of cops after him. He stopped and prepared for a showdown but rolled a Divine Intervention during the combat. A stray round from a rifle happened to hit a fire hydrant in just the right place to get it to explode in a torrent of water. The Calabite literally melted away, screaming, a la the witch from Wizard of Oz. We had a damn good laugh that night :) Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:48:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seedpack At 4:09 PM -0700 6/19/00, David M. Barr wrote: >So. Would there be any market / point to putting together >a book of IN fiction? Fiction-as-fiction not possible legally at this time. The license for that still resides in Croc's hands. Depending on how _much_ "fiction" showed up, a book of seeds could have long vignettes, though, I think. It might be tricky. My one worry would be that such a thing would come _awfully_ close to "oh, look, an adventure where the GM's favorite NPCs get to do everything, and maybe the PCs mop up the mess." If it worked, it would be very unique; if it flopped... Ow, that'd _sting._ O:> I do sometimes wonder if the format for the first Cycle would have better been done as "And here's what's happening in the rest of the world, and here's fifty gazillion seeds for people not involved in the politics to use, and here's some seeds for the people who _are_ involved in the politics." Sort of a "Here's for PCs who change their corner of the world, and here's for PCs who change the world." An interesting question, actually... Should a future adventure-Cycle, if any, include a summary of major events in the back 1-3 pages, and some seeds that people ostensibly not-affected directly could use? E.g., the rumor of a Malakite Falling making people look askance at their local Virtues, and putting all triads in the area into overdrive. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap. But now with a computer desk! Vapitalizatoin and spelling still difficult, typing w/ 1 hand (and often a wigglebaby in the other). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:52:10 -0500 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Omentide" To: Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 5:23 PM Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon > Equally as an MIB I am not going to say IN has failed. Not here on this > list, not in any other public forum. I do not believe anyone should be > saying this in public. For as long as SJ supports IN I will do the > same. If we start stating here that IN has failed the rumours will spread > and this will do further damage. As far as I am concerned IN has a solid > player base (in the area I have influence over it is more than simply > solid), I will maintain my enthusiasm. I am not in any way affiliated with SJG, so I don't feel this compunction. I'm also prone to being a Servitor of Litheroy in all aspects of my life. I love the game, and I'll maintain my enthusiasm to play it. That doesn't mean i'm going to delude myself or others about its prospects. Further, my experience is entirely different than yours. I've been shamelessly pushing IN on people for two years now. I've purchased three extra copies of the main rulebook to give to friends in hopes that they would become excited about it. I've bullied my way into every PBEM or online game of it I possibly could. Results? I have one (as in, I only need one finger to count him) friend that said, "Well, if you get a game together, I'll play." The rest of them said, "No thanks." The online games I play in all collapsed within a couple of turns except for one that toddles along at a rate of about one turn every two weeks. Every time I go into a local store that carries games, I check out their In Nomine selection. They all have pretty much the complete line sitting on their shelves. I emphasize "sitting," because I surreptitiously put light pencil marks on a number of the books so that I could figure out if they were moving at all. As far as I can tell, neither store I frequent has sold a piece of IN product to anyone but myself in over six months. As far as I can tell, there is zero widespread interest in the game. > > Now, Ok mistakes might have been made in the production schedule, in the > content of some books, but this can be rectified. Without knocking the > writers, editors or anyone else some books are not that hot, and the > Revelations cycle was poorly thought out. The Guides and Superiors are > better, they focus more on the key elements, introducing new stuff should > have been left for a later date rather than throwing minor superiors with > poor backgrounds and limited supportive material through Revelations. Yes, the new stuff is better, but it's almost certainly too late. I'm sure that someone can come up with an example of a game that took off years after its launch, but it's the exception. Vampire, Deadlands, whatever, the successful products were a success from the word go. I think that In Nomine is destined to be another Tekumel; it'll have a fanatic following, and 95% of people in the RPG community will go, "What?" And you notice how successful Tekumel has been at generating interest from a major publisher. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:05:20 -0500 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" To: Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:00 PM Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) > > Now the > >Big Payoff is hopelessly delayed. While the Big Payoff is being delayed, > >the amount of effort and time you describe is being put into what is, for IN > >players, a marginal product. The badly needed 2nd Edition is indefinitely > >delayed. > > Hey, woah, time out on _that_ misconception. 2nd edition didn't get > delayed because of GURPS IN. It got delayed because of pre-eclampsia > including a blood pressure of something like 180/110 (at 200/110, > seizures are VERY likely to happen...) and a premature daughter in the > hospital, causing SJ to decide that 2nd ed wasn't going to have anyone > to write the thing. Perhaps my ordering was poor. I did not mean to imply that 2nd Edition was delayed because of GURPS IN. Chronologically, though, it was the next thing to experience problems after the Big Payoff. > > That, friends and countrythings, is Murphy's Law. I thought I had > two more months before becoming a mommy... O:p Given those two > months, I could at _least_ have run a re-org on the blighted thing. > (At the moment, my plan is to jump up and down and demand the > Quark files from the reprint (which will have errata fixes, to > at least some extent) and start working on it as I can so that > when stocks of the reprint run low, I can hand over the files > with this smug little grin.) You're missing my point. You can list the various reasons why each of these delays and snafus happened. In the end, though, the important part is that they *did* happen. Not one of them. Not a couple of them. *All* of them. That's not Murphy's Law, that's a pattern. And the pattern is that almost nothing for this game system is on time, or even close. The pattern is that, for whatever reason, a lot of stuff that has come out for this line has been of a significantly lower quality than it ought to have been. Once or twice is coincidence; the track record of In Nomine is *not* coincidence. It's a case study in how not to produce and market a game. > > GURPS IN was being worked on at the time (mostly on those damned > cost calculations, which still ate up time like crazy and I couldn't > help with at all, except occasionally for a spot-question, which > resulted in me lying around staring at the ceiling a lot waiting for > those spot-questions...) -- and while it's a marginal prduct for IN > players, it is _not_ a marginal product for the GURPS line. (In Other > Words, there are enough GURPS players out there who would buy GURPS > Outhouses that they _know_ this will sell -- and that if even 1% of > those people start picking up the IN line religiously, there will be > incoming money and this cursed schedule can maybe > get into high gear .) Given the number of GURPS people I know who I have unsuccessfully tried to hook on In Nomine, I'd bet that even 1% is overly optimistic. > Allow me to put it this way -- it's gonna live on if I have to find > some way to _fund_ the blighter my own personal self. However, I don't > have the funds dripping from my fingertips to sustain a production > schedule of monthly or every-other-month, such as was the attempt for > a while. If that happens, let me know, because I might be able to chip in on this. *I* love the game enough that I'd probably do so, if I can. But my gut says that that's what we'll have to do, eventually. > > That is really the crux of the issue -- will the line be profitable > enough to get a book every month or every other month or every > three/four/X months or "when we have a hole in the schedule"? How > many books will be printed? (If they just sit in the warehouse, then > fewer will be printed because space is money -- there's more margin, > or so I hear, in having a large print run, but not if it takes six > years past forever to sell through.) _Which_ books will be printed? My gut also tells me that this is the sort of death spiral from which IN will never recover. For whatever reason, SJG might hold on to the license and release a book every 4-6 months, but once the line starts getting pared back like this, I don't think it's going to be able to elbow its way to enough shelf space in stores to fight its way back. > OTOH, from what Andrew said a while back about sell-sheets and whatnot, > it seems there hasn't been much of _any_ support to date. (I suspect > it fell through a SEP hole -- now that Andrew's dragged it out, there > might be something interesting going on...) Therefore, if this is all > Word of Mouth... think what might happen with a little _publicity._ > (Which, as a note, doesn't mean that the line is/was being ignored. It > means there's been Line Editor and Managing Editor churn and since > I _am_ telecommuting from 2000 miles away... Ya wanna blame someone, > blame people who are no longer working there who didn't hand over > paperwork.) As I've said elsewhere, I think it's too late for this to really work. In Nomine needed this kind of attention during the first six months of its release, not years later. Now, I'm afraid that SJG might be throwing good money after bad. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:34:36 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) >At the moment, tell you true, IN isn't selling fast enough to justify >every month (duh) and probably not every other month. Considering that >there are whole heaps of books I _want_ to see happen (the rest of the >Superiors books (duh), the aforementioned Cool Stuff With Grigori book, >a historical book, the long-shot pair (and only 1 pair) of Citybook >books, a whole _third Cycle_ I'd proposed about 2 years ago which doesn't >even have a modern _outline_ anymore... Well, I'd _love_ to see some >of these running in parallel for every-month-a-new-book so that I won't >be a grandmother by the time they burble to the top. O:> I know the argument for bringing out a constant succession of 'new' game books but I have never been convinced by it. I've heard people say that collectors, not gamers, are what makes RPG lines profitable. This strikes me as sad, but I have yet to be convinced that it HAS to be the case. A constant succession of new books pleases the writers and the collectors but does it draw new players into the game? How offputting is it to a new player (or hopeful GM) to feel that she has to buy at least half a dozen different products to play/run the game 'properly'? Am I the only person on the list to have had some rules lawyer in a Convention game complain that I'm being ridiculously un-canonical because I've made things up rather than collecting every sourcebook and supplement for the game I'm running? Does this make me a lousy GM/scenario writer? The more complex a game becomes the more difficult it is for 'new' people to get into it. Admittedly I don't like canon. I'd like there to be the minimum amount of canon. I like to take the original sourcebook and run with it - extrapolate or invent whatever isn't there. For me that's a large part of the fun of roleplaying. Waiting for some major plot revelation is why I buy comics. Different media - different satisfactions. That leaves one question open. How do you make a line profitable without bringing out a constant succession of new canon? Firstly: > said a while back about sell-sheets and whatnot, >it seems there hasn't been much of _any_ support to date. (I suspect >it fell through a SEP hole -- now that Andrew's dragged it out, there >might be something interesting going on...) Therefore, if this is all >Word of Mouth... think what might happen with a little _publicity._ Lots of publicity. Lots of basic support. One complaint we get at Conventions. As MIBs we tend to provide IN material as prize support. Convention people find it logical to assign IN prize support IN tournament games. IN tournament games tend to be won by people who already play IN. People who already have the books (yes, we do informal prize swaps). Unsure how you get around this but definitely having some kind of IN lite would help. It would help people get into the game when trying it out at Conventions. It could be given out at Conventions to arouse interest in the line. There's also other ways of doing supplements. I already said that I dislike 'new canon'. New canon tends to undermine GM creativity. Maybe I already have a fairly firm idea of how a particular Superior works. A Superior book comes out and flatly contradicts my conception. Where does that leave me? The books I personally like are those that expand on the mechanics. Stuff like the Libers (all of them) so, when I have an idea for a new tether or a new song, I can make it work consistently. I also like stuff like cities - I might not want to use Austin from Night Music or L.A., but they show me what I need to do if I want to set a scenario in London or Paris or Amman. Collectors will buy any book with the right name on it. Gamers-who-are-not-collectors will only buy books they want to use. The whole ethos of IN is difficult for many people to grasp and they need help to get into the basic concept before they can deal with expansions of it. The trick must be to expand the player base through publicity and basic support (maybe through the MIB program though I think it needs to be wider than this). Once that's done, a more regular publishing schedule becomes more viable. And, hopefully, you get more feedback about what dedicated players really want to see... Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> Toddling IN online games On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Michael Neal wrote: > The online games I play in all collapsed within a couple of turns > except for one that toddles along at a rate of about one turn every > two weeks. I resemble that remark.... - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:11:19 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Weird Plot Idea-Adapting Tolkien This is one of those weird urges you get to combine two things you like (Tolkien and In Nomine in this case) which usually turns out disasterous but I thought I'd give it a spin. After all Tolkien did have angels appearing quite often in his little work whether it was the enigmatic Gandalf or the vile Balrog or earlier works... I thought I'd run some ideas towards the list for their opinions on how to do this (and yes this is inspired by my watching the trailer hyper of the new movies). :-) 1:) Tolkien Themed Adventures... Basically these are the old fashioned stealing adventure hooks from Tolkien; Effectively this would ammount to a young man gaining possesion of a powerful artifact it is his destiny according to Yves to destroy-and yet he's completely unsuited for it while the demons are at the gates (Hmm I wonder if Gollum met his destiny or Fate?), Laurence's daughter rebbelling to go fight demons when he intends for her to take a more secondary role in the war (sigh Eowyn...), or a angel suffering the death of what he believes his Celestial form and emerging ever stronger for it. A literal wealth of ideas for adventures lie in his work in this area.... 2:) Middle Earth Chronicle: Heheh one of the cutest ideas I ever saw was when I saw on the In Nomine collection adapting Tolkien's LotR chronicles to In Nomine...however I think that is incredibly wrong....by the end of the Third Age it was strictly man's time really. I find however Tolkien's Silmarillon the perfect resourec for running a campaign set *BEFORE* humanity existed. Basically the chronicles of the Valar working on Earth to get everything ready for humanity's arrival and having to contend with Lucifer/Melkor. It was quite good I felt for an In Nomine game or chronicle. Tolkien even describes the angels seeing the universe in terms of a Symphony and how that humanity was the 2nd theme. 3:) Adapting NPCs: Basically what it reads like.....Adapting the Balrog as a Calabim (a nasty one at that) Baron of Belial....Sauron the Evil Eye as a word bond Balseraph (no idea what the word would be), a Mercurian (or would it be Elohim) whose especiall dissonant in Saruman, and the like. Of course they'res also the possibility of going from one campaign through another-in Yves library there is the book that may lead to the time it may or may not have actually existed....the Dream Realm of Tolkien...and the like. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:03:09 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon > > Equally as an MIB I am not going to say IN has failed. Not here on this > > list, not in any other public forum. I do not believe anyone should be > > saying this in public. For as long as SJ supports IN I will do the > > same. If we start stating here that IN has failed the rumours will spread > > and this will do further damage. As far as I am concerned IN has a solid > > player base (in the area I have influence over it is more than simply > > solid), I will maintain my enthusiasm. > >I am not in any way affiliated with SJG, so I don't feel this compunction. >I'm also prone to being a Servitor of Litheroy in all aspects of my life. I >love the game, and I'll maintain my enthusiasm to play it. That doesn't >mean i'm going to delude myself or others about its prospects. Not delusion. As a MIB (which I take seriously) I have an obligation to support SJG product. I don't get paid for this, but I do get credit which I can convert to product (this will include GURPS IN - I want a copy). In return for this credit I support IN and other SJG lines. do not think I would be popular with SJ if I started claiming one of the lines was dead, a failure, or rubbish, or whatever, in fact I would be in breach of the MIB charter. >Every time I go into a local store that carries games, I check out their In >Nomine selection. They all have pretty much the complete line sitting on >their shelves. I emphasize "sitting," because I surreptitiously put light >pencil marks on a number of the books so that I could figure out if they >were moving at all. As far as I can tell, neither store I frequent has sold >a piece of IN product to anyone but myself in over six months. I hate to say this, but what are the MIBs doing where you live? If IN is not shifting where is the support? Ok, maybe this is harsh, we do need half decent demo scenarios and supportive stuff to back up the effort. What I can say is that as Cell Leader Ireland with ten or more conventions a year which is not bad for a country with less population than London, IN is in high demand. So myself, Hilary, Colm and Brian write the scenarios (tabletop and LARP), run the games, and get the convention support. The interest in IN grows. It gets more players than many games, less that AD&D, VtM, Lot5R and Cthulhu, but equal to or more than most others. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:09:37 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) There have been lots of really well thought out posts on this topic. This isn't going to be one of them. I have only one major point to make. There have been mistakes and missteps, even an Interregnum. The line has suffered. The current main book is something I feel I have to _apologize_ for when I loan it out--"Read this section and this section--ignore the rest". Half the books on the shelf are deprecated, and another half are, um, suboptimal. It's not the _same_ half, but there's a large overlap. I'm going to use a Harsh Word. We need a Total Relaunch. We need IN 2/e, with rules about how to use the previous books--these books are canon, and follow the direction we're going now, and those books. . . aren't. We need stickers on the existing books saying "Compatible with In Nomine, Second Edition." We need a plan; we need a publication commitment. We need marketing, planned and smart, and _outside_ the ghetto. If you try to the cycle concept again, we need to make a Big Deal out of the fact that the IN Universe is going to by dynamic. We need to make it different, easy to jump on, and uniformly of the quality that we've seen since the GMG and the Superiors books. The major downsides of this are that it involves a) halting the line until 2/e can be done, done right, and very seriously playtested, 2) a major planning effort, deciding a lot of things in advance, and then filling in the blanks later, rather than making it up as we go, III) a willingness to take a stand on what this world is about, and four) pulping a lot of existing books and taking a loss, or getting people to buy them out, or some combination of the two. (Suggestion: if we go this route, find out how many copies we'd have to sell to make the soon-to-be-paper-pulp book break even, at least, and see if we'd--listfolks--buy that many to get a Fresh Start.) Another offhand suggestion: consider offering subscriptions. If I knew there was a commitment to In Nomine, that there would be six books coming out in the next year to two years (but without a schedule--I'd _much_ rather have it good than Tuesday) I'd easily consider paying for them in advance. If can get some large fraction of the cost of producing and printing the book beforehand, wouldn't that make things easier? And while I'd like to have the ability to make sure the books I buy are good--to see reviews beforehand--as much as the next person, I end up buying them all anyway. Many of you do, too. I'd consider it a _convenience_ to not have to go to my FLGS any more--they're not that F now that the proprietor spends all day playing EverQuest and doesn't look up when I come in, and with Seattle traffic, they're not even that L any more. And with the book _paid_for_, if it takes three years to sell the rest, well, it's that much easier to justify, isn't it? Alternatively, offer the game only via _web_ subscriptions, with lower prices for the "books". Quark has a PDF output option, doesn't it? That right there allows SJG to not have to warehouse anything at all, and the physical production cost of the game shoots to zero. If I want it printed, well, include some sort of statement that lets me take the PDF to Kinko's and print it out. They can produce something double-sided and bound for about $6, you know. And if we need to do another edition? Well, edit that puppy up and release it as a new book. And there's some design changes, too, that would make the game seem less. . . wishy-washy. I like that the GMG has details on how to alter Brightness and Contrast. That's good. But _pick_one_ and make it canonical. Every one of us--every GM--knows to tweak a game to make it the way we like it. But if the designers don't pick make a decision, then the feeling of all of the material after that is incomplete, like it's just a kit for us to use to build our own game. I want a whole product. I don't want "There are many more Archangels". I want "Here's a list". If I want to add more, trust me--I will. I don't need permission. But I _do_ need a world were my players don't ask "Is there an Archangel of Sandwich Meat?" and _I_don't_know_ what canon's going to say sometime later. I want a world that makes sense, that has answers to questions you can afford to answer--yes, I realize that some of CDaU is CDaU because you don't want SJG's offices burned down. I know I have permission to change the game, but I want serious depth to _start_ with. I _want_ solid philosophical underpinnings. I mean, the point of the game is entirely different in low-contrast from high-contrast. Nobody asks what Unknown Armies is about (I mean, once they've heard of it, found it and read it, that is) because the authors _took_a_stand_. Some folks _hate_ it, but nobody wonders what the authors meant. These are side issues, but my core point is this: we're slamming Band Aid brand adhesive strips on arterial bleeding. We need organization--a main book we love, are proud of, and can use. We need to bring the quality of _every_ book on the shelves and in canon up to the quality of the last few. We need player's guides that don't make the line editor wince. We need IN lite, with perhaps three angelic superiors and just the rules for light-side players, and we need it downloadable in PDF. (Wanna sell GURPS to someone? Hand them a copy of GURPS Lite, doublesided, in color. It _works_.) I realize I've not dealt with all the books in current print, both in private collections and on store shelves, but you know what? Junk 'em. It'll only sting for a while. I've got a awful lot invested in In Nomine, if you combine money for doubles and triples of books, a Pyramid subscription largely for IN playtest drafts, for my web site, time spent reading, time spent entering data for the INcyclopedia and programming it. The APG and the Revelations books will still contain some good ideas. But they're _over_. They need to be _over_. If the books aren't selling now, they're not doing the FLGSes any good, anyway. If the line can start over and become something that _moves_ for them, they'll carry it, even if they had to eat a few books. If it becomes popular, maybe the old books will be collectible. *laugh* (I'm sorry I don't have a solution for you, Omentide, for a no-new-books IN support, but it's just not going to happen. Successful game lines are successful _because_ people buy books. If there aren't new books. . . Well, "What have you done for me lately?" come to mind. So does, for example, On The Edge. A fine game. Try to find it. Having just a main book and selling more copies of it is a wonderful idea, but not a valid business model.) First edition IN is built on a foundation of salt. If we fix it, and start over, we might have something solid. I'm looking forward to the EPG quite a bit, but it's _not_ going to make us even one new convert. . . . We need something that _will_. I've offered a lot of opinions and ideas here, and they're all meant to improve something I care about. If somehow I've stepped on a toe or a foot, I didn't mean any hurt--I honestly think that everyone's done the best they can with the tools they were given. But it just _didn't_ come out right. I would just like to see IN be first tier in quality, support, and design, even if the adult and religious subject matter means that it'll never be D&D3 in popularity. steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:50:53 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) >>With the exception of the Grig stuff, which we all know is new, _will_ you go through the book and pick out everything that looks like it's "omighodhowcouldyou?!" so-called "new canon"? (Well, you, someone else, whatever.) Then I can lay it out ahead of time what's pure GURPS only (such as divorcing Power Investiture (realm) (aka Forces) from stats, and Gadgeteering for Creationers) and what's coming back into the thing, and what may or may not, depending on factors beyond my ken at the moment...<< I already promised you I'd go through all the flavortext and let you know what I thought of it. I can certainly look for "omighodhowcouldyou?!"'s... But that doesn't mean I'll catch 'em. But I'll be out of town in a rather boring week-long class in a few weeks. Gives me something to do in the evenings when I should be studying. >>Because I think that there may be a wee little molehill under this mountain...<< Perception is everything. Reality is often marginal. In my line of work, as well as in marketing. >>(Oh, and since you're buying it anyway, I hope that you can get some milage from the "convert GURPS stats to IN stats" material in there. I know that when I was doing some Werewolf stuff, back-conversion was something I sorely missed.)<< If Eric's already back-converted the Grigori, I hope to swipe his version. If not, I'll convert it myself. Unfortunately, my time is at a bit of a premium at the moment, and I don't have nearly the time to devote to gaming that I'd like... Ki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:44:20 -0500 From: "Michael Neal" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Feldon" To: Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) > I've offered a lot of opinions and ideas here, and they're all meant to > improve something I care about. If somehow I've stepped on a toe or a foot, > I didn't mean any hurt--I honestly think that everyone's done the best they > can with the tools they were given. But it just _didn't_ come out right. I > would just like to see IN be first tier in quality, support, and design, > even if the adult and religious subject matter means that it'll never be > D&D3 in popularity. I'll second pretty much every suggestion here. I think the general situation is that dismal that it requires desperate measures. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:08:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Omentide wrote: > > > Equally as an MIB I am not going to say IN has failed. Not here on this > > > list, not in any other public forum. I do not believe anyone should be > > > saying this in public. IN has failed. Until I'm a paid SJG employee with a contract that says I'm supposed to act as a PR flack, rather than stating the truth as I see it (and you can guess how likely THAT is), I will not pretend everything is hunky-dory and refrain from talking about glaring, obvious problems. I like In Nomine very much. I am very sad that it has failed. I hope that a miracle occurs that will save it. I hope that SJG will at least put out a new supplement every now and then, and that I am still able to write for them. But posting something like "I do not believe anyone should be saying this in public," about something I've just said in public....well, you don't want to go there. >:) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:04:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Yeah, yeah, I know this one's pretty stupid... Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:59:25 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Yeah, yeah, I know this one's pretty stupid... >>There is, however, a big difference between >>*useless* stupid and *useful* stupid. This was >>definitely the latter. Even if only for comic relief, >>this guy would make a fun addition to an >>adventure.... :) >Indeed. Wonderful work again, Mr. Lane. Now when are >you coming up with the Malakite of Fire who holds the >Word of Legos? >:) >- -Erich S. Arendall Why should I have all the fun? The ANGEL of Legos would be big mojo, indeed, and I don't serve Gluttony. Besides, I'm too busy working out how Beleth never really Fell at all, and has just been deluding herself that she's a Djinn*. So, feel free to write him/her up. Although ... you sure a Malakite's the best way to go? After all, Malakim tend not to play with their food too much. Ofanim, now... or maybe a Kyrio of Lightning... :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Aww, Look At The Cute Liddle Demon Trying To Be So Bad *(LEVEL 4 NON-CANON ALERT!) A _Djinn_ who can get up enough energy to hate, with the crystal clarity of Beleth? Please. Hatred isn't the opposite of love: indifference is ... which is why most Djinn literally don't give a damn. Obviously, Lucifer did some heavy perverting of his Seraphim nature on Beleth, back at the Fall, and she's never really recovered. Her better nature does pop up, though, from time to time. Think about it: during the Purity Crusade, when Blandine was desperately trying to stop Uriel, who saved the remaining ethereals from certain destruction? Beleth. Who spends all of her time fighting a perpetual stalemate, making sure that the rest of Hell never gets too much play in the ethereal arena? Beleth. Who's the only Prince(ss) that hates _herself_? Beleth**. Eventually she's going to roll that Divine Intervention that will break her out her Belseraph-induced delusion, then Hell will be, collectively, chipped beef on toast. I can wait. :) (/LEVEL 4 NON-CANON ALERT!) **Well, Nybbas too, sort of, but I can't _do_ a better Heretic Nybbas than the one in Dark Victory. I'm even sensible enough not to try. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:19:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> A Christmas angel, how sweet ... > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:40:59 PDT > From: "Janet Anderson" > Subject: IN> A Christmas angel, how sweet ... > > I really, really like this. Especially the part > about the two kinds of > demons: those who assume a Christmas angel must be > a Mercurian, and those > who know better and decide to skip the whole thing > ... > > And the ongoing problems with Mammon. (I suspect > there might be problems > with Beleth as well; I'm sure children's "visions of > sugar-plums" are > something she likes to mess with if she gets the > chance.) Hadn't thought of that. I can just see her now, sending out ethereal axe-wielding, psycho-killer Santas, trying to disrupt the whole thing ... and then getting into a nice turf war with Mammon and Nybbas*, while Nicolas laughs, and circles the periphery, picking off the weakened fighters. Heck, _all_ the Malakim would start turning in their vessels for jolly old elves if something that tasty started happening**. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of "Good" Does Not Mean "Nice" *Which is what she really wants, after all, seeing as she's really a enthralled Cherub (see previous post). **Well, maybe not. I like the image, though: demons crash a bar full of Santas, start doing their thing, and suddenly realize that everyone is pulling out flaming swords. And _smiling_. Yup, it's the annual Christmas party at the Eight Virtue, and the presents have just walked in... :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:20:08 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 11:59 AM 19/06/00 -0400, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >Any thoughts, then, on how to get IN to the "small but reliable base" >level? I have at least one - *pokes Beth* - but the discussion might be >interesting. And Andrew Hackard is out there somewhere listening, yes? Indeed I am. (And please forgive my using my home address, but . . . well, I'm at home. Trying to shake a mild flu. So don't get too close to the monitor. :-) ) - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1683 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.