From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 20 07:01:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22685 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:01:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id HAA27398 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:00:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:00:12 -0500 Message-Id: <200006201200.HAA27398@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1684 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1684 In this digest: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon IN> Scenarios IN> Sad Fall of In Nomine (was: GURPS IN Canon) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon IN> Collecting vs. playing with few books Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Re: IN> Sad Fall of In Nomine (was: GURPS IN Canon) Re: IN> Seedpack Feast of Blades Stories [was: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon] Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> Word of Mouth (Re: GURPS IN Canon (loooong)) Re: IN> Sad Fall of In Nomine (was: GURPS IN Canon) Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Re: IN> Collecting vs. playing with few books ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:36:43 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) At 05:00 PM 19/06/00 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >OTOH, from what Andrew said a while back about sell-sheets and whatnot, >it seems there hasn't been much of _any_ support to date. (I suspect >it fell through a SEP hole -- now that Andrew's dragged it out, there >might be something interesting going on...) As it happens, I have a slight update on that front. We did some digging, and discovered that there WAS, in fact, a "How to Sell In Nomine" sheet created and sent to retailers back in '97. (There was also one for the Rev Cycle, but we needn't go there.) After some concerted digging by three tired SJG staffers, the Quark files for that sell sheet turned up and a copy was printed. It was, as you could guess, three years out of date. A rewrite was undertaken at once, Steve approved it, and last week copies of the new version of the IN "How to Sell" went out to the distributors, with a request to please copy it and pass it along to their retailers. (We also sent an electronic copy to the Managing Editor, for her to pass out at the BookWorld trade show a couple of weekends ago -- so some bookstores who have never heard of In Nomine before may be looking into it. We hope.) (If it's any consolation, the GURPS Traveller sheet is at least as out of date as the IN one was, and we still haven't found *those* files yet.) Should all of this have been done years ago? Yes -- no one's denying that. There's definitely a certain feeling of shutting the barn door as the horse crests the ridge on the horizon. But we are NOT ignoring In Nomine. I guess I can also mention that the IN reprint will be shipping in August. It will have errata fixes, as Beth mentioned. It will also have new cover art (currently being worked on, or I'd give you an idea of what it looks like) and . . . no, I don't think I want to spill *that* little tidbit of information yet. ;-) The other thing I can report, from our Direct Mail and Warehouse 23 guys, is that sales of the initial In Nomine "bundle" have been doing quite well -- apparently, lots of people are picking up GIN and the Player's Guides at the same time. With luck, they'll read those and then start clamoring for more IN material -- which was the point of running those specials in the first place. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:14:27 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) At 7:50 PM -0500 6/19/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: > >If Eric's already back-converted the Grigori, I hope to swipe his version. >If not, I'll convert it myself. Unfortunately, my time is at a bit of a >premium at the moment, and I don't have nearly the time to devote to gaming >that I'd like... Oh, I plan to reverse-engineer almost immediately. That being said, my Mechanics are moderate. If someone who does actively good IN Mechanics, like David, does a reverse engineer, I'd swipe *that* myself and recommend it to others. But if nothing else, I'll want it so I'll do my own. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:45:33 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon >Patrick wrote: > >A stray round from a rifle happened to hit >a fire hydrant in just the right place to get it to explode in a torrent of >water. The Calabite literally melted away, screaming, a la the witch from >Wizard of Oz. Heh heh heh. I've never yet let an Intervention actually *kill* a character, myself... but if I did, that would be a darn good way to do it. Heh heh heh. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:13:26 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Scenarios Okay, obviously opinions are going to vary greatly. Still, here's my $.02. Feast of Blades -- This is a decent, fun adventure. It does have some holes and it does need some work, but it's a pretty good starter for a new group. Emphasis on combat, yes, but that's not a bad thing in an introductory scenario. And it can be run in a session or two, which is also good. The Michael-vs-Yves scenario in "Liber Reliquarum" -- Disliked it, can't remember the name. This is the only one I dislike so much that I've never been able to make myself run it. IMO it's a dumb idea badly executed. YMMV. No Dinero -- Again, a basically OK scenarion that needs some work. It's really rather short and skimpy, and suffers from indecision as to whether it's about combat or intrigue. I've run it, ummm, three times I think, and the nightclub *always* gets destroyed (or closed by the cops due to shootouts and bizarre goings-on... same difference) fairly early on. I've found that this one works best when it _isn't_ self-contained, but is part of a larger campaign, with various plot threads flowing into it and out of it (i.e., Furfur putting in an appearance, hints and foreshadowings about Final Trumpet, etc.). The freak-show in "Heaven and Hell" -- Again, I'm blocking the name of a scenario that I didn't like. IMO this is the least of all the IN scenarios; it's very very very slight, more of a plot seed than anything else, and frankly I found it unconvincing and leaden. I've run through it once, to see if I was missing something, and neither I nor the players cared much for it. Night Music -- Oooh, cognitive dissonance bigtime. Love it, hate it. Some wonderful wonderful stuff in here (great NPCs), and some dumb _dumb_ stuff too. Needs more time than I have now to pick this one apart... let's just say that I think it could have been magnificent with some serious editing. As is, it needs a lot of effort and tinkering on the GM's part. Still worthwhile if you're willing to put the time in. Fall of the Malakim -- So much maligned, is there any point to going over its well-known flaws once again? But, really, it does work... well, not better, but much less badly, as an *immediate* prelude to Final Trumpet. There are several nifty NPCs and a couple of good minor side adventures here (though the "opening night" one is wholly forgettable). FotM is not _necessary_ to the Final Trumpet, or to anything else really. Still, Maximilian the tormented Malakite has never failed to arouse my players interest... in varying tones of sympathy, horror, pity, alarm and disgust, depending. Final Trumpet -- Dammit, I _like_ the Final Trumpet. And so do my players. I've run this a couple of times now, to general accolades. It's got intrigue, problem-solving, enough combat to keep the munchkins happy, multiple outcomes, and Epic Sweep and Grandeur. Oh, and several truly white-knuckle moments! I'll never forget the time we got to the "Ambush in the Marches" incident, wihere Belial uses Magog as bait to lure Gabriel to destruction ... when Belial stepped out from a dreamscape, grinning madly and carrying _a fire extinguisher_ (and followed a moment later by Vapula and a dozen Servitors of the Media with handi-cams), one player (running a Servitor of Gabriel) actually screamed "No! It's an ambush! No! No!" and hit the table so hard the whole thing collapsed. Hey, that's the sort of thing I play these games for! Everybody who plays this game for a while wants to play Armageddon. Could it have been done better than this? Definitely yes. But is it a rollicking good roller coaster of an adventure? Yes it is, and I suspect that most of the whinging about it comes from folks who have never actually been through it end to end, run well. Anyhow. There's obviously plenty of room for more IN scenarios. Personally, I'd rather see a short scenario or two at the end of each Superiors book instead of the plot seeds; so far these have been, shall we say, uneven. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:34:52 -0400 From: Andrew Dawson Subject: IN> Sad Fall of In Nomine (was: GURPS IN Canon) At 11:59 AM 06/19/2000 -0400, Jason Schneiderman wrote: >Any thoughts, then, on how to get IN to the "small but reliable base" >level? I have at least one - *pokes Beth* - but the discussion might be >interesting. And Andrew Hackard is out there somewhere listening, yes? Whether or not In Nomine has failed or will fail, it still is currently in print and supported by SJ Games. That means that interested parties can still do something to promote it in the hopes of increasing its market share (or whatever measure you prefer). This is not necessarily a trivial or an easy task, but you can do something if you care to try. Here are some examples: 1. Run the game for your friends or suggest that your GM run the game. 2. Run the game for strangers at conventions and at store demos. 3. Talk the game up around anyone who will listen. 4. Talk the game up around your local game store and try to get them to prominently display it (this works best with #2). 5. Vote with your cash. 6. Be positive. If the game fails anyway and you actively tried to prevent this, then you likely did the best that you could. While none of these actions will automatically save In Nomine, they're still worth a try. Just so you know my interest: I am an SJ Games MIB. As a MIB, I will support In Nomine and any other SJ Games products at cons as long as SJ Games wants them to be supported. If SJ Games decides to drop In Nomine, I will likely stop running it _as often_ at cons. I am not affiliated with SJ Games in any significant way. I run the games that I would run anyway at conventions and I get some reward, but that doesn't stop me from running other games such as CoC Pendragon, FUDGE, and Hero Wars. If anyone thinks that the SJ Games credit I received for running an In Nomine game last weekend covered the cost of the hotel room and the cost in time to prepare for the con, that's fine--but daft. I run games because I want them to succeed. I can take credit for introducing dozens of people to In Nomine and for starting at least four In Nomine play groups in the Northeast and Midwest US since it came out and that is what I think will save the game. Even if the last half of this message annoys you, please don't discard the first half. Thanks, Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:31:38 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 9:08 PM -0500 6/19/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Omentide wrote: >> > > Equally as an MIB I am not going to say IN has failed. Not here on this >> > > list, not in any other public forum. I do not believe anyone should be >> > > saying this in public. > >IN has failed. I think that's even the wrong way to look at it. IN's a role playing game. One the people on this list like a lot. It's pretty much the only RPG I'm involved with, and that's true of some others, but not all others. It's succeeded with me on a personal level, and with a lot of us and a lot of other people on a personal level. It's still selling enough that they're reprinting the main book. It's *not* being discontinued or going out of print. To that end, it's considered profitable enough to take the time and effort to continue to develop the line. So it's *not* dead. Not by a long shot. In Nomine is not the next World of Darkness. It had a shot at that but due to it didn't become that. It's not the next Champions, or GURPS -- the seminal games that help to define Role Playing for whole generations. It's not the next Traveller. It *is* Space: 1889. It *is* Timemaster. It is a game that has a dedicated core of players who like it a lot. And those games may not make a huge amount of money or convince a lot of people who play other games to switch to it, but it still makes people happy. It's no problem being one of the latter. It's kind of cool and funky. It's like being a BeOS user or a FreeBSD Wonk. It's okay to be among the cognoscenti when the rest of the world stays blind. And while it may drive we the FreeBSD'ers insane when the 'GRIGORI' patch we've been waiting on's being released as an RPM for Red Hat Linux first (not for nothing am I the Demon of Belaboring the Point), we still enjoy and develop our FreeBSD. So... "failed?" Nah. We just have to understand what we are and what we're going to be, and then have fun doing the IN thing here and elsewhere. (Oh, and J.M. Neal? My experience has been a lot closer to Ashley's - -- I've seduced a number of people into In Nomine with my descriptions and enthusiasm. So it's clearly a Your Milage May Vary. Oh, and one of my three FLGS's got IN flying off the shelves right now, which stuns and pleases me. Granted, one of the other two doesn't carry it at all despite my advocacy, and the third... well, others on the list know and can describe it better than I.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:32:57 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) At 6:36 PM -0500 6/19/00, Andrew Hackard wrote: > >The other thing I can report, from our Direct Mail and Warehouse 23 >guys, is that sales of the initial In Nomine "bundle" have been >doing quite well -- apparently, lots of people are picking up GIN >and the Player's Guides at the same time. With luck, they'll read >those and then start clamoring for more IN material -- which was the >point of running those specials in the first place. Now *that* is good news. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:37:26 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 9:03 AM -0700 6/20/00, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > _Feast_of_Blades_ (from the GM pack) is hands-down the best of >the In Nomine >> scenarios, IMHO. It had everything I needed as a GM, and was fun when I ran >> it. Now, if only the GM screen had been more useful... *sigh* > >See, this is how opinions differ. I think FoB is rotten, having >recenntly tried >to run it. It's contrived, it's clunky, and there's too strong an emphasis on >combat. Furthermore, it's not really supported by current canon - sorcerers >don't work that way, tethers don't work that way, demons don't act >like that... >Small wonder that S. John Ross stopped doing IN work; his ideas of what IN's >about are pretty much orthogonal to the way the game's developed. Note that I am not disagreeing with good Master O'Duffy when I mention that parts of the Alaemon Extended Dance Mix were... *interesting* to bring into line with the rest of the Line.... (I didn't mind FoB, all told, though I loathed the Alaemon Tether and disliked Hamet. But then, in desperate plug for Superiors 4, coming this Geological Epoch to a Game Store near you, I think Hamet and Alaemon's Dukes of Hell got put into a decent perspective. As for S. John Ross's work on IN overall -- well, I've *always* liked Litheroy and Alaemon.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:09:37 -0700From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) >and there's some design changes, too, that would make >the game seem less. ... wishy-washy. I like that the >GMG has details on how to alter Brightness and >Contrast. That's good. But _pick_one_ and make it >canonical. Every one of us--every GM--knows to tweak >a game to make it the way we like it. >But if the designers don't pick make a decision, then >the feeling of all of the material after that is >incomplete, like it's just a kit for us to use to >build our own game. I want a whole product. I don't >want "There are many more Archangels". I want >"Here's a list". If I want to add more, trust >me--I will. I don't need permission. But I _do_ >need a world were my players don't ask "Is there an >Archangel of Sandwich Meat?" and _I_don't_know_ what >canon's going to say sometime later. I want a world >that makes sense, that has answers to questions you >can afford to answer--yes, I realize that some of >CDaU is CDaU because you don't want SJG's offices >burned down. I know I have permission to change the >game, but I want serious depth to _start_ with. I >_want_ solid philosophical underpinnings. I mean, >the point of the game is entirely different in >low-contrast from high-contrast. Nobody asks what >Unknown Armies is about (I mean, once they've heard >of it, found it and read it, that is) because >the authors _took_a_stand_. Some folks _hate_ it, >but nobody wonders what the authors meant. I see your point, Steven. I just don't agree with it. In my opinion, you _can't_ come up with a filter for IN that won't drive off current players and buyers. For example, I like (in _IN_) silly, lighthearted games with the contrast oscillating from Quantum Leap to Good Omens. I like to send Demon Princes through the Redeem-O-Matic. I like writing up incongruous Word-Bounds and Silly Artifacts. In short, I like goofy. What would I do if IN's tone changes so irrevocably that I can't come up with this stuff and be playing the same game anymore? I would stop purchasing IN. Why bother? I can come up with my own stuff, and I'll never be able to use the published material without so much revision that I might as well use my own imagination ... and save my cash. But what if, instead, IN's tone changes my way? Sure, _I'm_ safe, but then I'll end up seeing darn little that's thought provoking. Some good creative work by others will never see print, because it won't fit stylistically anymore. And I can't use that stuff to fuel my next Silly Diversion. What I'm trying to say is, rather than being a creative flaw (it could very well be a serious financial flaw), IN's refusal to give you an official philosophy, worldview or tone is what makes the game so fascinating to me. I do NOT want to see it gone, both for the sake of my creative impulses ... and for those of people who don't agree with my artistic vision*. The issues that IN routinely deals with are complex, and mysterious. The game should reflect that. "And that's all I have to say about that." Moe (FAW) *Pompous of me, huh? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:56:51 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon At 11:37 PM 19/06/00 -0400, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >(But then, in desperate plug for Superiors 4, coming this Geological >Epoch to a Game Store near you, September, actually. I don't think the announcement has gone up on the Web site yet, but it's been announced to the distributors. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:38:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> Collecting vs. playing with few books On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Omentide wrote: > A constant succession of new books pleases the writers and the collectors > but does it draw new players into the game? How offputting is it to a new > player (or hopeful GM) to feel that she has to buy at least half a dozen > different products to play/run the game 'properly'? Am I the only person > on the list to have had some rules lawyer in a Convention game complain > that I'm being ridiculously un-canonical because I've made things up rather > than collecting every sourcebook and supplement for the game I'm > running? Does this make me a lousy GM/scenario writer? The more complex a > game becomes the more difficult it is for 'new' people to get into it. Tell those rules lawyers to just go away. If they don't like the game you're running, they don't have to play it. You can get away with just the core book and play a decent game of In Nomine. A lot of the other books are very useful and helpful, but I wouldn't call them indispensible. They can enhance your game, but they don't enable your game. This may not be true with every game system, but I still do believe it is true with In Nomine. If you want to run a game like that, those who disagree aren't forced to play. > That leaves one question open. How do you make a line profitable without > bringing out a constant succession of new canon? I'm not sure it can be done-- not for something like In Nomine. The closest example might be Call of Cthulu. As I understand it, they've actually been able to get away with releasing scenarios and other "optional" things, and haven't had to expand the core set of "rules" or "crucial setting" books. In Nomine is not doing this. Yes, while I assert that you can play the game with just the core rules, you will deviate from a game which takes into account (say) all the information in the Superiors books. Another example is GURPS. That line gets away with introducing new books all the time without adding to the weight of canon because there *is* no canon. And, already, people there complain that three core books is too many to buy. But, there are hundreds of books in those line, and most GURPS players can get by missing any number of them. The thing is, each world book (usually) stands alone. Obviously this model doesn't work for IN. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:40:51 -0700 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Note that I am not disagreeing with good Master O'Duffy when I > mention that parts of the Alaemon Extended Dance Mix were... > *interesting* to bring into line with the rest of the Line.... Oh, that's the bit I forgot. Ross didn't have an edequate grip of the IN mechanics either. Some of Alaemon's attunements were broken, and the Dagger of was also kludgy. > (I didn't mind FoB, all told, though I loathed the Alaemon Tether and > disliked Hamet. But then, in desperate plug for Superiors 4, coming > this Geological Epoch to a Game Store near you, I think Hamet and > Alaemon's Dukes of Hell got put into a decent perspective. As for S. > John Ross's work on IN overall -- well, I've *always* liked Litheroy > and Alaemon.) Here, I agree with you. I think Alaemon and Litheroy and excellent. Wonderful concepts. I also think your write-up of Alaemon in S4, while obviously based strongly on Ross' work, was head and shoulders above the original. And we got the rules cleaned up to boot. (I do hope there'll be an eventual Superiors book with Litheroy. I wanna pitch for that writeup...) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia It's been a long hard day scaring the shit out of children for the anticlowns of the Tolerable Terror Infant Therapy Institute. - Spider Jerusalem, TRANSMETROPOLITAN #23 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:13:06 -0700 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Sad Fall of In Nomine (was: GURPS IN Canon) Andrew Dawson wrote: > 5. Vote with your cash. Actually, this 'advice' kinda annoys me. (Hmm, that's a little stroppy. Must be channelling David Edelstein. I'll try to stay polite.) Isn't telling us to do this pointless? You're asking us to buy IN books. Well, you're pretty much preaching to the converted here, surely. The bulk of people on this list _have_ all the IN books, or at least all the ones they want - - why should they buy more? Should they buy ones they _don't_ want? That hardly sends an appropriate message to SJG ('well, looks like we need to reprint Fall of the Malakim'). I don't won - or want - You Are Here. I don't plan to shell out $40 or so Australian on a supplement I don't want to ineffectually support IN. Should we buy books and give them away? Okay, I see some more merit in that, if it works. But I don't know that it souls work, and it's hardly something most gamers can afford to do. Most gamers I've met/spoken to are flat out buying books for themselves - they can hardly be expected to spend even more on the _chance_ of helping a gameline. The people on this list _are_ the ones that have voted with their wallets, Andrew. Don't tell us that IN Needs Our Dough. (Admittedly, I'm part of the problem. Haven't had to pay for a supplement for abiout 2 years now, so SJG are just throwing profits away on me...) > 6. Be positive. If the game fails anyway and you actively tried to prevent > this, then you likely did the best that you could. Now this, while it's a little overly-optimistic, is something I can agree with. Pointing out problems and discussing the games' future is a good thing; becoming Cassandra and saying "I come not to praise IN NOMINE, but to bury it" may not be as helpful. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia It's been a long hard day scaring the shit out of children for the anticlowns of the Tolerable Terror Infant Therapy Institute. - Spider Jerusalem, TRANSMETROPOLITAN #23 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:19:22 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Seedpack - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 "Our Fathers were the model for God. If Our Fathers failed, what does that tell you about God?" - -Tyler Durden, Fight Club > Sort of a "Here's for PCs who change their corner of the > world, and here's for PCs who change the world." > > An interesting question, actually... Should a future > adventure-Cycle, if any, include a summary of major > events in the back 1-3 pages, and some seeds that > people ostensibly not-affected directly could use? > E.g., the rumor of a Malakite Falling making people > look askance at their local Virtues, and putting > all triads in the area into overdrive. > > > this is the best idea for a format of a source book I've seen. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:17:04 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Feast of Blades Stories [was: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon] here's my FoB Story: First, let me give the setup. it's a one-shot at one of a local high-school's gaming club's "Gaming Nights" that I frequent since my old HS days. For the adventure, I thought it would be fun to run the scenario from the point of view of the four Impudites and their Balseraph leader. so I get four people to play gun-toting giggling demons and the one person familiar with In Nomine to play their boss (in retrospect, he's the best IN player I've seen, but then again, he's quite familiar with the game, so he had it down cold). they blunder through the game doing all manner of hilarity until they got into a show down with the sorcerer at the hotel (after which I ended the game, it was late). after taking him down and retrieving the Dagger, they walked into the hall to see the Police streaming in. it's good to point out that earlier the Balseraph had worked his magic on one of the other Policemen so that everyone thought they were cops from another district (they even swindled some badges). so they've become big heroes for taking out the dangerous terrorist who wrecked the plane and think they're in the clear when out of the elevator steps the Seraph of Litheroy. without even hesitating, even blinking, the Balseraph player turns to me and addresses the Seraph, "You must be Mr. Rogers. thanks for taking the time to help us handling the PR, please take are of explaining the situation with the terrorist to the reporters for me." He grabs the dice and flings them....when they roll the perfect roll...666. we all stare for a moment, then burst out laughing while the characters returned to Hell leaving a Seraph of Revelation behind to get nice and dissonant. there was no way on the planet I could have done that better. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 "Our Fathers were the model for God. If Our Fathers failed, what does that tell you about God?" "You are not your job. You are not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive, you're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world." - -Tyler Durden, Fight Club ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:48:46 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 "Our Fathers were the model for God. If Our Fathers failed, what does that tell you about God?" "You are not your job. You are not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive, you're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world." - -Tyler Durden, Fight Club - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Feldon To: Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: RE: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) The current main book is something I feel I have to _apologize_ > for when I loan it out This is the biggest problem i've had without a doubt when trying to get new people to play In Nomine. the main book, the _one_ book they _need_ to read is a complete piece of layout tripe. they don't like reading it. i've gone so far as to taking a used softcover i came accross, cutting the binding and re-binding it to make it flow better. > > I'm going to use a Harsh Word. We need a Total Relaunch. i can only wish. i think this is beyond even speculatoin and dreaming. > > We need IN 2/e, with rules about how to use the previous books--these books > are canon, and follow the direction we're going now, and those books. . . > aren't. > The major downsides of this are that it involves a) halting the line until > 2/e can be done, done right, and very seriously playtested, i don't think it needs to be seriously playtested, the mechanics are about as playtested as they're gonna get, and a new mechanics system is _not_ the answer. 2) a major > planning effort, deciding a lot of things in advance, and then filling in > the blanks later, rather than making it up as we go, this seems to be the answer. III) a willingness to > take a stand on what this world is about, and that hasn't been done already? it's about the fight for Humanity. four) pulping a lot of > existing books and taking a loss, or getting people to buy them out, or some umm.....i don't think that's practical. possible? yes. probably going to happen with current shelf-sitting of things like Revelations (which is becoming obsolete thanks to Superiors and PGs)? i'd hate to see it, but i think my FLGS might just dump all the books they have sitting there that haven't been moved in, well, as long as i've been visiting and IN's been there. > > Another offhand suggestion: consider offering subscriptions. i would rather how WW does their subs: each new book is sent to me and auto-billed to my credit card. i can return in x days with a refund if i don't like it (of course, i've never thought about sending IN back, i'm one of the completists) > Alternatively, offer the game only via _web_ subscriptions, with lower > prices for the "books". that will without a doubt kill the game. now it's only going to be picked up by current fans, and then only those with computers. face it, without a physical book in a store new blood isn't going to enter. which would get me on another one of my peeves: Cover Art...but another day another rant. > > And there's some design changes, too, that would make the game seem less. . > . wishy-washy. I like that the GMG has details on how to alter Brightness > and Contrast. That's good. But _pick_one_ and make it canonical. this is something i'd certainly like to see. > We need player's guides that don't make the line editor wince. Amen. We need IN > lite, with perhaps three angelic superiors and just the rules for light-side > players, and we need it downloadable in PDF. (Wanna sell GURPS to someone? > Hand them a copy of GURPS Lite, doublesided, in color. It _works_.) This is exactly how i got 4 reluctant people in my group to entertain and eventually start with a GURPS game. it works wonders. > If there aren't new books. . . Well, > "What have you done for me lately?" come to mind. So does, for example, On > The Edge. A fine game. Try to find it. Having just a main book and > selling more copies of it is a wonderful idea, but not a valid business > model.) one minor correction, that's Over the Edge. On the Edge was the card game. and this is the best example i could think of (was gonna point it out myself if you didn't). OtE is a _great_ game, one of the best i've ever seen. but there hasn't been a new book in...[checks date on book on shelf] 3 years!! i hate seeing one of my favorite games die. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:38:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Mouth (Re: GURPS IN Canon (loooong)) > > > Word of Mouth... think what might happen with a little > > > _publicity._ > > > >How many Word Forces is that worth? :-) *sigh* No one even mentioned Andre... Andre would be *very* good to the Demon of Mouth... ;> O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:18:58 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Sad Fall of In Nomine (was: GURPS IN Canon) >From: "Patrick O'Duffy" > >becoming Cassandra and saying "I come not to praise IN NOMINE, but to bury >it" >may not be as helpful. If you were becoming Cassandra and doing that, it wouldn't be so bad because no-one would believe you ;) But I think the best argument against it is just that it's very boring to keep hearing people complain continuously that the line is dead et. al. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:25:29 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) >four) pulping a lot of > > existing books and taking a loss, or getting people to buy them out, or >some > > >umm.....i don't think that's practical. possible? yes. probably going to >happen with current shelf-sitting of things like Revelations (which is >becoming obsolete thanks to Superiors and PGs)? i'd hate to see it, but i >think my FLGS might just dump all the books they have sitting there that >haven't been moved in, well, as long as i've been visiting and IN's been >there. If IN was to be relaunched, or some other development happens, or even if various books are not shifting they still have a use. I am sure the MIBs can make use of them, I certainly can, even f I have to say something like, 'OK, this is an old book, not everything in it is great, but it'll give you an idea of what IN is about'. > > Another offhand suggestion: consider offering subscriptions. > >i would rather how WW does their subs: each new book is sent to me and >auto-billed to my credit card. i can return in x days with a refund if i >don't like it (of course, i've never thought about sending IN back, i'm one >of the completists) I have everything as well. I would certainly consider a sub. > > Alternatively, offer the game only via _web_ subscriptions, with lower > > prices for the "books". > >that will without a doubt kill the game. now it's only going to be picked >up by current fans, and then only those with computers. face it, without a >physical book in a store new blood isn't going to enter. which would get me >on another one of my peeves: Cover Art...but another day another rant. A complete version by FTP or whatever is probably a bad idea. A 'lite' version with 4-6 superiors (maybe some from each side), 6 or so PC's and some NPCs, and the core mechanics to run them, a scenario and a few adventure seeds to follow on from the scenario might work better. This sort of thing if far from being the complete IN, is just enought to run with and hopefully enough to get players sufficiently interested to go out and buy stuff. It would also be an excellent MIB resourse and could be used in various ways to promote IN. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:06:09 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Collecting vs. playing with few books >Tell those rules lawyers to just go away. If they don't like the game >you're running, they don't have to play it. What you say is totally valid for games run for fun, at home or in a friend's home. However, I'm talking games at Cons. Demo games which are designed to promote IN, not to stop people I wouldn't invite into my home from buying the line. And 'tournament' games - also promotional to a certain extent. In a tournament game I would kick out a player who was seriously wrecking the fun for other players. I've never had to do this and I would need to consider a lot of factors very carefully before barring a paying customer from my table. Getting it wrong would damage the reputation of the Convention and damaging the reputation of a Convention is not the best way for a MIB to act. >You can get away with just the core book and play a decent game of In >Nomine. A lot of the other books are very useful and helpful, but I >wouldn't call them indispensible. They can enhance your game, but they >don't enable your game. This may not be true with every game system, >but I still do believe it is true with In Nomine. I guess I was trying to say something like that. Trouble is, I tend to regard Liber Canticorum and Liber Castellorum as more or less indispensable because they provide mechanics for 'stuff I want to do' which are missing from the core book. What seems to be seriously missing is a handy 'players guide' containing the basic information players (not GMs) need to know to create a character and play within the core system. I'm not criticizing the IPG or APG here - just that I reckon they're more use to GMs than they are to players. >If you want to run a game like that, those who disagree aren't forced to >play. Again, I'm talking about Convention games where some delegates might not be aware of the way I tend to run things. > > That leaves one question open. How do you make a line profitable without > > bringing out a constant succession of new canon? > >I'm not sure it can be done-- not for something like In Nomine. > >The closest example might be Call of Cthulu. As I understand it, >they've actually been able to get away with releasing scenarios and >other "optional" things, and haven't had to expand the core set of >"rules" or "crucial setting" books. In Nomine is not doing this. Yes, >while I assert that you can play the game with just the core rules, you >will deviate from a game which takes into account (say) all the >information in the Superiors books. Not the place to go into a long discussion of CoC, but whilst I don't possess a SINGLE CoC scenario, there are a number of source books I would not be without. I'd broadly describe those as 'historical' and/or 'geographical. And, of course, there is Cthulhu Live. I'd rather see IN go in that direction than indulge in the constant production of 'new canon', but I think I'm probably in a minority so feel free to ignore me on that one. >Another example is GURPS. Obviously this model >doesn't work for IN. GURPS is generic. IN is not generic. Different animal. Hilary Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1684 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.