From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 9 22:59:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02762 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:59:31 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA17039 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:00:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:00:18 -0600 Message-Id: <200101100500.XAA17039@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2013 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 9 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2013 In this digest: Re: IN> Suggestions Re: IN> (sliding off topic) Website sorting Re: IN> Netbook Idea Re: IN> Netbook Idea IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2012 Re: IN> Netbook Idea Re: IN> Suggestions Re: IN> [New Prince] Urizen, Demon Prince of Grandeur Re: IN> Suggestions Re: IN> Netbook Idea Re: IN> [New Prince] Urizen, Demon Prince of Grandeur Re: IN> Suggestions Re: IN> Gag Reflex Re: IN> [New Prince] Urizen, Demon Prince of Grandeur IN> New In Nomine PBEM Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:58:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Suggestions At 9:51 PM +1030 1/9/01, gnezda wrote: [...] >My first idea was to say he was actually the child of Baal (accounting [...] >time he was a Vapula/Vapulan child, rather than a child of Baal), and at Use both! How? Siiimmmmple... Once upon a time there was a Vapulan with a female vessel who just _KNEW_ she had some wonderful trick that, well... required some special DNA. A Superior's DNA would work Just Fine. Thing is, how to _get_ it? My, is that a bunch of Baalites over there? She didn't have the Song of Fruition, so once back in the lab with her, ah, sample, she had to carefully splice the DNA into a human ova. (Where did she get it? Oh, don't ask silly questions like that; there are lots of humans around, and you'd be surprised what they'd donate.) Then she had to find a host-mother for the little thing -- but, well, _she_ had a human vessel, didn't she? Just because she couldn't _conceive_ didn't mean she couldn't nurture the little thing... Unfortunately, the pregnancy didn't go all that well, and the Vapulan (probably an Impudite; I doubt any other Band would do something so _biologically daft_) wound up in a hospital with a Level III nursery for care of premature infants. Mortified that her experiment had gone _so_ wrong, the demon used Corporeal Healing on herself and made her getaway, too disoriented from the surgery, seizures, and other problems to realize that the 28-week-gestation child _wasn't_ dead. But his demonic heritage made him robust, and he lived, eventually to be adopted. When he hit puberty, well... Let's just say that the interactions between celestial and human have made for some _interesting_ side effects.... >Also, I'd like it if he spent a fair amount of his time in Hell Remember, canon humans -- which a Nephalite is -- can't go to Hell except by dying, or using the Song of Projection (which has them only sort-of in Hell, and very vulnerable, since they can't attack _back_). OTOH, there are likely to be plenty of places where Baal has strongholds. And there's always Los Angeles. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:05:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> (sliding off topic) Website sorting At 6:34 AM -0800 1/9/01, Casca wrote: >On Tue, 09 January 2001, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Unless you're talking about something other than what I think you're >> talking about, that "source code" is two separate pages, each done by >> hand... > >*shrug* Whatever. I don't do HTML. If I did, I'd have had a webpage up long ago. Adobe PageMill 2.0. (As opposed to PageMill Betatest, aka PageMill 1.0.) Taught me everything I know about raw HTML coding, too. O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:53:10 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Netbook Idea > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:42:02 -0500 > From: "Rolland Therrien" > > Subject: IN> Netbook Idea > > Can I get dibs on the Ramnant of Michael? > > Yeah, I know what you're thinking: But Michael's > Dead, right? > > Come on... Michael, Champion of Heaven, getting > finished off FOR GOOD? Actually, as written... yeah. He's dead. Gone. Failed his saving throw, joined the Choir REALLY Invisible, etc etc etc. This is an ex-Seraph. Which makes your thought a nice, nasty curve ball. Tell you what: I'll send you an invite so that you can see what the rest of the gang is doing. It's shaping up pretty nicely so far: you may want to get a piece of it yourself. Nobody's called Baal or David yet, for example. Then, once the basic concept is set, we can introduce your Remnant idea as a optional way to inject a note of hope into the setting. Fair enough? Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:10:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Netbook Idea Maurice Lane wrote: > Actually, as written... yeah. He's dead. Gone. > Failed his saving throw, joined the Choir REALLY > Invisible, etc etc etc. This is an ex-Seraph. But *lovely* plumage. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:16:10 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2012 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 20:37:16 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> January 8, 2001 - - --- Maurice Lane wrote:> Craft Skills > Consider these added to the skills list for my >campaign. Cool. It kept annoying me that I couldn't write up the flipping laboring classes for IN. Let me know about the defaults, OK? :) Moe PS (pause) You know, I'm too polite to send an egroups invitation to the new net.book I'm moderating to anyone who hasn't actually asked for it. A shame that I don't, really: we've still got lots and lots of Superiors to do. Why, Baal, David and Kobal are still unspoken for! Isn't that amazing? ;) ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 09:16:49 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Netbook Idea - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl Wajenberg" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 9:10 AM Subject: Re: IN> Netbook Idea > Maurice Lane wrote: > > > Actually, as written... yeah. He's dead. Gone. > > Failed his saving throw, joined the Choir REALLY > > Invisible, etc etc etc. This is an ex-Seraph. > > But *lovely* plumage. Right, right, that's it. I warned you, didn't I? I warned you about using the slogan? RIGHT! I'm cancelling the whole program! - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:20:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Suggestions Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Once upon a time there was a Vapulan with a female vessel who > just _KNEW_ she had some wonderful trick that, well... required > some special DNA. A Superior's DNA would work Just Fine. Thing is, > how to _get_ it? My, is that a bunch of Baalites over there? I'm a little foggy on this step. Did she seduce Baal? Or just some Baalite in a male vessel, who "therefore" (?) carried Baal's DNA? (I guess it's Baal's DNA: he made it himself. It's not like Baal or any other celestial naturally has any DNA at all, though, not being made out of matter or naturally incarnate or anything like that.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:31:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [New Prince] Urizen, Demon Prince of Grandeur Very good. Neel, you are one of the best-read online correspondents I have run across. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 08:30:23 -0800 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Suggestions Lox looks fairly ugly and is also covered in various cybernetic attachments, wires, etc all over his body (has no game effects, purely cosmetic). Where do these cybernetics come from? My first idea was that Vapula got hold of him and experimented on him, but that's too easy. Perhaps my character is the offspring of Vapula and these cybernetic attachments are natural for him? Perhaps this 'Nephallim' is really a semi-artificial construct, combining living tissue with cybernetics?<<< Perhaps he was an experiment of Jean's. The Archangel of Lightning *is* an Elohite after all, and I doubt that he'd let a simple thing like Judgement's decision interfere with a scientific objective. Perhaps he grew Lox from a genetic sample of one of the ancient Grigori, attempted a cybernetic fusion on him in an attempt to prove that the Children of the Grigori still had some use to Heaven, and then lost Lox when the Laboratory Tether of Lightning Lox was made in was assualted by a combo The War/Technology assualt force. Lox chose to serve The War, much to Vapula's chagrin and anger. >>>Why is Baal so protective of this Nephallim? In addition to this, Baal has given him quite a few interesting toys to play with (artifacts). Why was he entrusted with these?<<< Keeping with the above ideas, I would think Baal would be highly protective of this prize snatched from the Other Side. :) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:22:21 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Netbook Idea - --On Tuesday, January 9, 2001 9:16 AM -0600 Charles Glasgow wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Earl Wajenberg" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 9:10 AM > Subject: Re: IN> Netbook Idea > > >> Maurice Lane wrote: >> >> > Actually, as written... yeah. He's dead. Gone. >> > Failed his saving throw, joined the Choir REALLY >> > Invisible, etc etc etc. This is an ex-Seraph. >> >> But *lovely* plumage. > > Right, right, that's it. I warned you, didn't I? I warned you > about using the slogan? RIGHT! I'm cancelling the whole program! > It's 11:30 AM, time for the penguin on top of your monitor to explode. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 18:12:18 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> [New Prince] Urizen, Demon Prince of Grandeur I like this a lot. You realize, of course, that a) this is the Demon Prince that Laurence, Michael, and David would most like to Redeem and b) someone should write up a chapter of Michael's Challenges with him. (No, not me, I've got too much to do already. Anyway, I couldn't even get myself in gear to write one for David ...) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:32:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Suggestions At 10:20 AM -0500 1/9/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> Once upon a time there was a Vapulan with a female vessel who >> just _KNEW_ she had some wonderful trick that, well... required >> some special DNA. A Superior's DNA would work Just Fine. Thing is, >> how to _get_ it? My, is that a bunch of Baalites over there? > >I'm a little foggy on this step. Did she seduce Baal? Or just >some Baalite in a male vessel, who "therefore" (?) carried >Baal's DNA? Player and/or GM's option. >(I guess it's Baal's DNA: he made it himself. It's not like >Baal or any other celestial naturally has any DNA at all, though, >not being made out of matter or naturally incarnate or anything >like that.) Ooooo, there's an amusing potential "DNA Celestial Checker" -- all vessels created by a given Superior carry DNA from the Superior's default vessel. Now, if only one can get a DNA sample from all the Superiors, so one can tell which ones are "descended"... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:43:36 -0800 (PST) From: Joey Lyon Subject: Re: IN> Gag Reflex I asked my husband (also my GM 8) ) about the gag reflex issue, and he had an interesting viewpoint on it, which makes sense. Corporeal vessels are immune to extreme temps, dont have to eat, dont fall into the other weaknesses of the human body, therefore, the gag reflex would probably fall into this category, however, he says that it should be dependent upon the role of the vessel. The higher the role the more human the vessel appears, and therefore, the higher the role the higher the likelihood of having a gag reflex. If the role is 4 or higher, it is on its way to being thought of by the symphony as being human, so if the gag reflex were to be applied by a GM, it should be applied to the higher vessel roles, or left up to the Superior who has created or is creating the vessel. Made sense to me.. Serendipity, Bright Lilim of Eli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:28:44 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: IN> [New Prince] Urizen, Demon Prince of Grandeur Laurent wrote: > > Urizen > > Demon Prince of Grandeur > > wow. It just became one of my favorites. > Good work! Thanks! > Laurent. > > PS: any Rites, Servitor Attunments, secret Songs? Rites o Successfully create a new work of art o Convince a human to attempt the impossible o Utterly humiliate an enemy o Convince a defeated enemy to join you (+2 Essence) Summoning Modifiers Base Modifier: 0 Urizen may be called, but it is difficult: he believes that his Servitors should be heroic enough to face any difficulty unaided. He doesn't mind being invited to the celebration afterwards, though, especially if the demon is going to unveil its *next* exploit. +1 An art museum +2 An acceptance letter to college +3 The peak of a mountain +4 The completed manuscript of a novel +5 20,000 feet up -- without a parachute +6 A human defying an Archangel or Demon Prince Attunements FOR ART'S SAKE This attunement permits a demon of Grandeur to act as a dark muse. The person the demon uses this attunement on a bonus to any artistic endeavors -- if they cruelly misuse their friends and loved ones. For each loved one they torment, they gain a +3 to their next artistic endeavor. This torment must be intentional and willing -- the beneficiary cannot be supernaturally compelled (for example, via a Geas or Song). For example, Joe wants to write the great American novel, and the demon Columbia agrees to help him. He has an affair and tells his wife to document her anger for the book; he quits his job and spends his son's college money to support himself while writing the book; and he reintroduces his "dry" alcoholic friend to alcohol to study his relapse for the book. When Joe makes the Writing roll for his novel, he does so at a +9 bonus to the roll! ETERNAL ENMITY By spending 7 Essence, a demon of Grandeur may declare eternal enmity against someone who has grievously wronged him or her, and gains a *permanent* +2 bonus on all rolls made against that enemy . This applies to all rolls the demon makes -- all skills, resonances and Songs, everything. The demon may name a number of enemies up to his or her Celestial Forces, but can never change an enemy unless that enemy is permanently destroyed. For humans, corporeal death is sufficient. But for a celestial or ethereal, this requires soul-death. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 22:07:49 -0500 From: "Tyto Alba" Subject: IN> New In Nomine PBEM Greetings. I am looking for players for my new In Nomine PBEM. There is a teaser at http://www.pbem.com/new/newCross-Genre.html and a website for the campaign at http://www.netrover.com/~nkhsin The game involves investigating, and acting on, rumours that someone high up in Hell's heirarchy wishes to defect. The game is broad enough in scope that there is room for almost any kind of character. Let me know if you are interested. tyto a. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:28:49 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine [conversion-reconversion] >We didn't really play with this, since it isn't an expected sort of thing >for players to do. We were mostly concerned with: > - converting existing IN characters (and campaigns) to GURPS mechanics > - and converting GURPS worldbook material for use in IN Makes sense. [disturbance] >Come to think of it, as a semi-scientific measure of disturbance, entropy >(in the general, non-thermodynamics sense) is probably a relatively good >one. ha ha ha, time to unlease the GM:TA Entropy Sphere PC!!! bwahahaha!! >If celestial powers trump them, then a) they should be more expensive than >they already are, probably, maybe via Unusual Background), I figure the entire COST of the Celestial package suffices in my game. I mean, it adds up point-wise, but . . . I dunno. and b) it >tends to downplay the uncertainty about whether celestials are, or are not, >really just powered-up ethereals. (That's an indirect effect, but one >I believe would be derived from the "feel" of the change.) though ethereals would be using Songs, too, I imagine dunno, though, since Magic would logically more open to them, just looking at GURPS worldbooks and rules from which they may come. >Songs generally have substantially more power per Essence than magic >spells do, so I'm not sure I'd make them even *more* powerful. Note, >however, that I recommended that celestials be able to have Magery in >a campaign including "normal" magic. GURPS magic is generally relatively >weak, but *extremely* useful due to the frequency with which you can use >it. and when 40cp purchases the mage a good 70+ spells while the celestial is speding those points on an attunement or two . . . options and flexibility plus intelligence = power It's hard to assess relative power, but it was our feeling that >celestials wouldn't feel "miraculous" enough by comparison with mages >if they could *only* do Songs, just for the sheer quantity of use of >"normal" magic. I'm not sure allowing Songs to trump other paranormal >powers fixes that as much. Well, if Celestials have both Songs and Magic to draw from, I'd say that it does, since their Essence takes longer to "recharge" than their Fatigue. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:46:49 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In-Nomine > >[ethe form] > >Hrm, and that's why dream elements /do/ count? (IIRC, dream elements can > >sometimes swiggle out of dreams and whatnot) > >They're just little icons as well for a disembodied consciousness... :P > >>Yes, I think it's inelegant too, but it's in the _main book_ that way, > >>and I know that ethereal forms _used_ to exist in a previous draft, > >>so I know they were taken out deliberately. > >> > >>No, you don't have to conform to that, but there it is. > > > >Well, I think the main problem comes down to "definition of 'form'" > >Form as used in the main text refers to "a set form", whereas I was >reading > >it as "a form of existance," like "phyisal form/body" or "celestial > >form/body" that acts upon and is acted upon. > >From what I recall, it's still not a "form." It's a representation. >Yes, it's hairsplitting, but there you have it. Hunt down Derek and >ask _him_ what he meant.... O:p Ah, but I lack the attunement. >(The Ethereal Form option was kind of neat -- Cherubim, for instance, >looked half-animal, half human, like Sphinxes and whatnot. That's >actually an option straight out of Gustav's Dictionary of Angels!) Neat! > >>You can change your ethereal representation with a Will roll, IIRC, > >>according to the Marches. Or at least I interpret one rule that way. > > > >AFAIK, that makes perfect sense. > >Stuck it into GIN, too, IIRC. goodie goodie gumdrops :) > >[ethes with cele forms] > >>Hang on, let me go get the book... p. 52, celestials in the Marches, > >>main book., for "no eth form." p. 53, The celestial - Heaven & Hell, for > >>"some spirits have celestial forms". > > > >Any other guidelines for /which/ spirits have vs have-not? > >No -- it _could_ be referring to _celestial_ spirits only, like >demonlings and relievers. I've never had to rule on it, and I'd >rather not start _right_ this instant... O:> oh . . . okay. > >>[...] > >> >>Maybe I'll suggest that you could find a Pyramid article in it... O:> > >> > > >> >bleh. I don't even remember what the Hell we were talking about by >this > >> >point. > >> > >>Modifying IN to be more like INS/MV with the One Body schtick, but not > >>quite the "Get killed, spend the next few hundred years waiting for > >>another body" method. > > >>Schoolwork. Feh! Feh! Pity, that. > > > >We'll see, my load doesn't look /that/ bad . . . yet. > >Luck. No, skill. In choosing classes that is. :) > >>>>[...] > >>>> >>The GURPS IN book might actually help > >>>> > > >>>> >That sounds good. I'm still waiting for my copy. -sigh- > >>>> > >>>>Bummer! > >>> > >>>yeah . . . oh, well, they say anticipation's half the fun, right? > >> > >>"They" are idjits. O:< > > > >Actually, I would agree with them. :p > >What, you're one of those people who never shakes your Xmas presents? Um, Yeah! Totally, we're talking shaking, lots of preopening guessing, sometimes to the point of debate. >(I hate anticipation. I want instant gratification. O:> ) ha ha ha > >>[...] [conversion-reconversionn] > >Hrm, I wonder if something similar will be true in GIN. > >Check it out -- I don't _think_ so, but mostly because the rule is >"Convert your best 10 skills or so." Which is a /good/ idea. :) > >> >>[...] > >[blowing pts on skills] > >>Oh, quite. Like > >>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/characters/Space/CaradocWu.html . > >>(15 points.) > > > >what? no statistics course? > >Next semester! O:> ah, I see. :P > >Well, okay, skills don't have to be expensive. Unless the player wants >them > >at a higher level than Wu's. > >Well, there is that. O:> (I should note that minmaxing at 15 points is >_ESSENTIAL_. At 100 points, it's only a good idea. O:> ) And at 750 points in GIN, it's . . . one of my players (well, I helped a lot, especially in mix-maxing his Artifact) > >[blowing pts on advantages] > >>Give me 150 points and I do dat. (Advantage Girl! The Swiss Army > >>Psi/sunmage/ > >>Animal Empath Horseback rider extraordinaire!) > > > >again, I lament the lack of advantages in In Nomine. > >Me too, sometimes, but considering the space they had to work with... uh . . . no offense, but they added a LOT to the French game. A single page on merits could have been easily added without some of the additions. Or could have been greatly expanded upon in later source books. I would guess that the merit/flaw system was probably almost inescapable (sp?) for the CPG. > >>Or, for a more reasonable version, you can check out > >>http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/characters/Space/XenoSolutions/Kelly.html . > > > >did, it's cool. I look forward to the powerful Psis in GIN. > >I'm scared. O8> Oh, you should be. You should be. Especially since they're more, so so so much more powerful after their first death. bwahahaha There's a _reason_ there are no Children of the Grigori in Heaven or Hell, you see. > >[psi mortals in IN] > > Psionic disturbance of the hyperfield. Yeah, whatEVER ha ha ha > >>Oh, of course. (Though we _aren't_ putting resonances and psi on the > >>same "band" in our fluffstuff. Makes the psi-shielded techie more >grumpy.) > > > >Hrm. I was thinking that Celestial powers would block magic -and- psi, > >because of their "God/Devil" origin. That and Songs are so much more > >expensive to fuel compared to Psi and Magic, in general. > >That's possible; we didn't explore that possibility. (The hypnogogic >projector did a number on Kobal, though, till he re-instantiated with >all his shields up. O:> ) kewl > >>[McGuffins] > >> >And in my first game, the Box was the MacGuffin (remember that EDG?) > >>only, > >> >it was USED in the end of the campaign. > >> > >>That happens sometimes, too! > > > >yeah, well, I thought it was pretty cool. The box started off at just >the > >reason the Ofanite of Trade was present. Then, it became what everyone > >fought over. > >Definite McGuffin, there. excellent, clarification achieved - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:11:08 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) > >[Essence & HT] > >Hrm, and yet Impudites were allowed to drain Essence from humans, who >don't > >have Essence. Oh, but they just merely lack "Essence Control" . . . >yeah, > >and that's why humans in GURPS Basic Set are able to spend all their > >nonexistant points all at once and get a bonus to their rolls. > >That mechanic got dropped and is now the "in-game" explanation for luck of >the dice. (Or GM fiat, really...) ha ha ha because humans *can* actually get things done in GIN. :) [..] > >-sigh- At least Blood Points make sense, since humans in basic GURPS >*do* > >have blood. > >But they can buy it up and down or something, which was _definitely_ a >no-no for us. Nothing that an imported human character would have been >able to affect, that was what we needed. So if it hadn't had Essence >Control earlier, well, it didn't have Essence Control and its Essence >reserves were moot from _its_ point of view.0210 > > >>attributes, HT seemed the best fit, since it's the closest thing > >>GURPS has to a measure of "life energy". > > > >ahhhhhhhh another reason why vampires in GURPS Blood Types drain HT > >(HT? Not hit points? Oh dear...) hold on, I'm probably wrong. Well: GBT pg 67: ...vampires...have certain restrictions on... HT, hit points and healing. An undead creature posesses HT, but no hit points of its own....[an] injured undead muust supplement its own HT with HT from an outside source. Looks like a simple HT-hit points confusion or something of that ilk. Probably corrected in the errata > >I also > >>wanted something as a separate driver for HT in conversion, since >Strength > >>wasn't really a good one. > > > >Lessee . . . Total Forces comes to mind, but probably wouldn't work well >for > >uneven force-distributed characters. > >True, but we also needed something to calculate HT from, when doing the >conversion. Well . . . I'd suggest (Corp Forces x 4)+2 > >Giving Corp Forces-heavy PCs a definite advantage, which appears to > >currently be the case so far for the IN characters we've converted. > >Probably no way around that -- GURPS has three physical characteristics >(ST, DX, HT) and one mental/will/perception characteristic (IQ). A friend o mine says that reflects what the system placed importance upon. The basic attributes depend on what's considered important. He's a WW fan and sites the "equal" physical/mental/social spread as evidence that it considers social interaction to be much more important than GURPS, obviously. >Since all tjree pf tje cprporeal stats are tied up[ in IN CorpFOrces, >well... yeah yeah > >>The conversion process is by no means perfect. It was the best I could > >>come up with that wasn't terribly complex and did a fairly reasonable >job > >>with more or less average celestials. > > > >It's cool. In my case, I mean, overall, the conversion feels pretty >solid > >to me, it just has kinks. > >Well, if you can figure out any irons that don't make the guidelines _more_ >funky.... O:> ha ha ha (As a note, Jo Hart said that some of her GURPS Goblins >characters back-converted fine. It seems to work moderately well with >non-celestial existing GURPS characters -- I tested it on about 4-5 >100 pointers.) Sounds good to me. :) > >>They still can't raise their Essence Control without a Superior's > >>intervention > > > >what page is that on? I haven't found that yet. > >(I can't fiond ot eotjer, but the baby was VERUY UPSET that I wouldn't >let her eat my GIN book.) Oh, you must mean /her/ GIN book. Just move it out of sight and it will cease to exist. >[Essence = Realm PowInvestiture?] > >>Soldiers don't work right if you do that. That was my first thought. > >>I couldn't find a non-klunky fix to that, and neither did the >playtesters. > >>(There was a *lot* of playtest discussion about Forces and Essence.) > > > >Wish I'd been there for it. > >It went on for a while.... If you _really_ want, I probably have the >archives of the playtest board somewhere around here....... O;> Too late now, maybe when I have, like, lots and lots of free time. > >>I wasn't trying to keep the costs within any particular range, that's > >>just how they worked out. > > > >Well, so much for my compliment. crap > > I'm sure he liked it anyway. O:> I'll live. :) > > There was > >>a bit more to it than that, of course, since there were various >experiments > >>in building the powers from existing GURPS advantages. > > > >Bright Lilim of Destiny Attunement (from Fall of the Malakim, iirc): So it's a resonance rider, not an additional >"with a touch" kind of thing. Check out Mercurians of Trade, who also >get a rider of probably similiar utility -- they have a +100% enhancement >to their resonance cost, which totals 30 points. Well, it may be a "rider" but if it's a +100% anyway, it may as well be a seperate ability that's tied to another. I dunno. A sticky part of my way of doing it that the base lilim resonance's point cost will be altered because of the linking of the powers (which is kinda wacky because [lilim of yves attunement] actually acts an overall limitation, when combinded with Yves dissonance condition.) I'd say that 20-30 points >sounds about right for the Choir Attunement, myself, and 20-25 is the >bestest >range. O:> Yup. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 04:57:51 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) > >[Essence & HT] >Actually, one explanation is that that "background" Essence expenditure is >one of the reasons why GURPS humans have higher basic skill rolls than IN >humans. Of course, that doesn't really work right for Soldiers.... > >Essentially, SJ's argument (if I remember it right) was that subconscious >human Essence expenditure was just part of the statistics of die rolls, >since characters don't actually *roll* dice in the game world. Or >something >like that -- I'm not expressing it very clearly. Sounds, ahem, yeah. > >-sigh- At least Blood Points make sense, since humans in basic GURPS >*do* > >have blood. > >I don't think anyone was particularly happy with this little conversion >mess, but SJ himself (as GIN editor) and Kromm were involved in the >discussion on it, so it's about as solid a decision as you can get. sounds it > >>So it had to be an attribute, or some combination. Of the four GURPS > >>attributes, HT seemed the best fit, since it's the closest thing > >>GURPS has to a measure of "life energy". > > > >ahhhhhhhh another reason why vampires in GURPS Blood Types drain HT > >I hadn't even looked at that, but yes, that's probably right. :) > >>I also > >>wanted something as a separate driver for HT in conversion, since >Strength > >>wasn't really a good one. > > > >Lessee . . . Total Forces comes to mind, but probably wouldn't work well >for > >uneven force-distributed characters. > >Yeah. I played around with a bunch of ideas, but most of them were too >complex, even for the GURPS gearhead types (in which number I include >myself, BTW). As do I. Speaking of which, I recently did a pretty good job on a recent artifact conversion, which is perhaps my favorite kind GIN conversion so far. I may eventually get through all the Relics in Liber Reliquarum. > >Giving Corp Forces-heavy PCs a definite advantage, which appears to > >currently be the case so far for the IN characters we've converted. > >Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good way around that, since the balance >between attributes in IN doesn't exist in GURPS -- three of the four >GURPS attributes are pretty clearly derived primarily from Corp Forces. Which makes sense, since GURPS was designed for earth-bound humans. > >>The conversion process is by no means perfect. It was the best I could > >>come up with that wasn't terribly complex and did a fairly reasonable >job > >>with more or less average celestials. > > > >It's cool. In my case, I mean, overall, the conversion feels pretty >solid > >to me, it just has kinks. > >No question about that. I don't think it's even *possible* to create >a truly accurate conversion, given the fundamental differences in the >statistics of the two systems. And if it *were* possible, the result >would likely be totally unplayable. Or at least undecipherable. >But it's *very* hard to reproduce some aspects of the IN mechanics >in GURPS. For one thing, a bunch of humans trying to use skills in >IN look like the Keystone Cops after a heavy bout of drinking, while >they tend to be fairly competent in GURPS. David's fixes in the CPG >helped that problem a fair amount, but the fundamental mechanics >are simply based on different statistical assumptions. Yecch. yup. Note that human in INSMV basically can't use skills through defaut values, but often have /more/ skills at higher levels than angels (though the undead are positively screwed in this area), and since skills in INSMV aren't added to attributes (only limited by them) they have MUCH better luck at getting their skills to work. > >>They still can't raise their Essence Control without a Superior's > >>intervention > > > >what page is that on? I haven't found that yet. > >There should be a mention in Ch8 under "Typical Rewards" (I don't have >a hardcopy here, but do have the final draft text, so I don't have >page numbers). However, I note that there's a typo in the draft >there that eliminated the words "Essence Control" after "an additional >attribute level and a level of ", so I'm not sure what the final >version reads. Nope. Only the additional attribute level (which, to me, connects directly to Essence Pool, since its limited by HT.) >It's also implicit in the GURPS meta-rule that advantage levels can't be >increased after character creation, unless explicitly stated otherwise >(as is, I believe, true for the advantages that are the base for super >powers and psi powers). > >In GURPS IN, Superiors *can* violate this meta-rule, and add arbitrary >advantages (or disads!) to the character, at whim. But PCs themselves >can't. Actually, this fails to correctly model the case where in IN, >a PC can develop an additional Force through increasing the associated >attributes by 4, though this is actually a GM call, not a true rule in >canon as far as I know. I think that's right. The core book probably states it as an option rather than a hard and fast rule. > >Oh, yeah, totally. Our angel of War is getting a Martial Arts package by > >GM-Fiat. > >I would say that's perfectly reasonable, though I'd probably want to make >sure the other PCs got some similar Word-related bennies from the >conversion >process, if I were doing it. Yeah. Well, they're getting a fat 60pts to spend on anything *appropriate* for their characters, by choir/word/personality. GURPS martial arts are fairly powerful >in game-effect. (Though not as big an effect as high-tech, as one >GURPS Space GM of my acquaintance found out -- ask me in private email >if you want the war-story.) I'm currently hoping that I made the right decision in granting the under-aggressive Cherub of Protection the Boxing skill. Boxing is an art that requires a great deal of assertion, so maybe it'll help things. > >>So I had to construct all the effects of Forces in IN from other GURPS > >>mechanics, and it had to work for un-tweaked mundane humans. This > >>effectively > >>decoupled all the various things that derive from Forces in IN, and > >>adding a whole bunch of external constraints would have been far more > >>klunky than the single one I did add. > > > >Power Investiture > >Actually, I was referring to the HT limit on Essence Control. "Native" >characters don't have any limits on Power Investiture that I recall, other >than the fact that it costs a fair number of points. Yes, yes it does. And it's in no way shape or form worth it unless you have a LOT of songs in a particular realm. I see NO reason for a native celestial to purchase another level, but only to receive another level as a "reward" from its Superior (basically, a "here's a bonus to all your songs in this realm"). So far as I can tell, they're completely unnecessary for a GURPS native celestial (if one were to lift the -5 penalty to Songs in the Corporeal realm, which SFAIK exists only to justify Power Investiture. > >Bright Lilim of Destiny Attunement (from Fall of the Malakim, iirc): > >I guessed the Lilim of Destiny Attunement as being a Symphonic Knowledge: > >paths to Destiny/Fate ability with Limitations (only with Resonance use > >-30%) for 21pts total. > >It was either that or add an enhancement to the Bright Lilim Resonance, >the > >+% I'd be pretty clueless on. Suggestions anyone? > >I don't have the book here, but Elizabeth seems to have said roughly >what I'd have said. Most of the Bright attunements that we came up with >for IN were resonance enhancements, so should be adding to the core >resonance cost, not creating a separate power. There should be a number >of examples of similar resonance enhancements in the online Appendix. Sweet. >If Elizabeth's description of the attunement in her message is accurate, >I'd probably put the value in the 10-25 point range, and probably toward >the higher end, since it allows the Lilim to more easily avoid Yves' >dissonance condition. Huh? I come to the oppositive conclusion. But, as I read the new and different GIN dissonance condition, I understand. Man, so this means that Yves' angels can be screwed over left and right if they do *anything* to help/hinder/affect a human being's life. Even healing someone might be dissonant. Holy Cow!! Krono's dissonance condition is SO MUCH KINDER (and only -6 rather than -11). Man, this is /really/ harsh. PC: "I purchase the soda-pop, and since I'm feeling good, I'll use of the 2-dollar bills I found." GM: "Okay, as you leave the store, you stagger in pain as a point of Dissonance wracks your being." PC: "What? What did I do?" GM: "You paid with a $2 bill, rare enough that the mortal behind the register decided to steal it, driving him further towards his Fate." PC: "But, I don't even know what his Fate IS!" GM: "Sorry, you should've checked." PC: "I can't; I don't have Divine Destiny." GM: "You should have purchased it." PC: "And blow my essence to use it before interacting with every single mortal I have to interact with, apparently." GM: "Yup. Hey, you've got a hefty responsibility, you know." Question: How can someone unknowingly take a direct action? A 20 point value would be a +66% enhancement to >the Symphonic Knowledge part of resonance, which sounds reasonable to me. >I could also see going with a +50% (15 points total). +100% (30 points) >seems too high to me. Where's the +50% versus +100% coming from? You guys just guessing here? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2013 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.