From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 11 20:07:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04508 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:07:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA28969 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:07:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:07:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200101120207.UAA28969@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2016 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 11 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2016 In this digest: Re: IN> David Edelstein IN> Re: Moe's Limerick IN> Say What? Re: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick IN> pronuniation Re: IN> pronuniation Re: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick Re: IN> David Edelstein Re: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick IN> Nasty little thought.... Re: IN> Nasty little thought.... Re: IN> [NPC] Alex, Ethereal Re: IN> Nasty little thought.... Re: IN> Nasty little thought.... Re: IN> [NPC] Alex, Ethereal IN> An indulgence in the perks of POWAH! Re:IN> pronuniation Re: IN> [NPC] Alex, Ethereal Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback 2) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback 2) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback 2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:12:17 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> David Edelstein Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:06:15 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> David Edelstein >Happy Birthday! > >:) Manny Neps (Whacking head) Damn. I knew that I forgot something. Happy Birthday. Moe ===== In Nomine stuff: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/25/00 (this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:21:58 -0500 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick > There once was a Saint they called Dermot, > Who spent mortal life as a hermit, > But now he serves Eli, > And shares his Rite freely; > The last time with ethereal Kermit. Of course, the real question here is what the Archangel of Creation is going to do to you, seeing how you've forced people to pronouce his name "Elee."* Later. Jonathan *Or you could go with "free-lie" but, for that, you get Dissonance from Busta, Demon Prince of Rhymes.** **Double the Dissonance if Dermot is French :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:28:04 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Say What? >Hey, dude, this is a family list! ;) > >-David Could'a fooled *me* ... Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:29:39 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick > >Of course, the real question here is what the Archangel of Creation is >going to do to you, seeing how you've forced people to pronouce his name >"Elee."* > That's the hebrew pronunciation, so probably not much. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:33:54 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> pronuniation How is Eli's name pronounced.. sounds silly i know but if you have a sorcerererererer calling out for (sounds like) Ellie (girls name spelling) or Ely (sounds like Eeeelie) or is it pronounced like Elliot? but with out the 'ot' bit? this is a source of bickering amongst our group as well at the moment. >>There once was a Saint they called Dermot, >>Who spent mortal life as a hermit, >>But now he serves Eli, >>And shares his Rite freely; >>The last time with ethereal Kermit. > >Of course, the real question here is what the Archangel of Creation is >going to do to you, seeing how you've forced people to pronouce his name >"Elee."* Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:52:33 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> pronuniation >How is Eli's name pronounced.. >sounds silly i know but if you have a sorcerererererer calling out for >(sounds like) Ellie (girls name spelling) >or Ely (sounds like Eeeelie) >or is it pronounced like Elliot? but with out the 'ot' bit? I tend to say it to rhyme with "daily," when I'm paying attention. When I'm not, it's more like "he lie." * * * * * Jason Schneiderman, Editor, EDITORIAL HUMOR. E-mail: edhumor@tiac.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:48:21 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick At 5:29 PM -0500 1/11/01, Jo Hart wrote: >>Of course, the real question here is what the Archangel of Creation is >>going to do to you, seeing how you've forced people to pronouce his name >>"Elee."* >> > > >That's the hebrew pronunciation, so probably not much. Plus, this is Eli. What -- you want maybe to change how you pronounce his name? For this he will be upset? Be creative! Do some things with color, font and spelling while you're at it! Be creative! - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:09:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> David Edelstein At 9:11 AM -0600 1/11/01, David Edelstein wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> I fell asleep *way* too early last night, so I didn't get to do the >> extra special writeup that I'd mapped out (which might be for the >> best, as David could eat me for lunch), so let me add a belated >> felicitation to David. > > >Hey, dude, this is a family list! ;) I was going to scan in some cake, but the scanner got all gooey... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:12:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Moe's Limerick At 12:48 PM -0500 1/11/01, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Plus, this is Eli. What -- you want maybe to change how you pronounce >his name? For this he will be upset? Be creative! Do some things with >color, font Not on THIS list... >and spelling while you're at it! Be creative! (Yeah, yeah, I'm a Djinn. We all know that.) - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:07:42 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> Nasty little thought.... Here's a nasty little thought. A lilim with a Role as a nurse in a maternity ward. "Wahhhh! I NEED milk!" "Wahhhh! I NEED a blanket!" "Wahhhh! I NEED a more comfortable bed!" Babies are basically NEED machines! She would gain a reputation for being very good with the children and have a very great empathy for them. And she would be racking up dozens of Geas-hooks a day! If she kept a list of names and addresses, thirty years later, she would have an army of slaves! Reverend Brian A. Rogers of the First Church of Cunning Plans ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:00:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Nasty little thought.... At 1:07 PM -0500 1/11/01, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >Here's a nasty little thought. A lilim with a Role as a nurse in a maternity >ward. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Lilim.Nadine.html - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:54:27 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Alex, Ethereal - --On Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:35 PM +0000 "-=|horsefly|=-" wrote: [...] > then watch the fun as the Divine Inquisition intervenes... > "Why are you helping this ethereal?" "She's not evil, and she's > fighting to stay free of Hell. Should we let her die or be > corrupted?" > "That would depend on what's best for the Symphony as a whole." Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Elohim. Not a real pain in the arse, but an incredible simulation.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:57:07 -0500 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Nasty little thought.... - --On Thursday, January 11, 2001 2:00 PM -0500 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 1:07 PM -0500 1/11/01, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >> Here's a nasty little thought. A lilim with a Role as a nurse in a >> maternity ward. > > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Lilim.Nadine. > html > Wow. Eudora Welty was right. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:17:03 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Nasty little thought.... From: > > She would gain a reputation for being very good with the children and have a > very great empathy for them. And she would be racking up dozens of Geas-hooks > a day! If she kept a list of names and addresses, thirty years later, she > would have an army of slaves! She has to be a Fate servitor, is the only thing I can add to this. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:32:46 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Alex, Ethereal >--On Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:35 PM +0000 "-=|horsefly|=-" > wrote: > >[...] >> then watch the fun as the Divine Inquisition intervenes... >> "Why are you helping this ethereal?" "She's not evil, and she's >> fighting to stay free of Hell. Should we let her die or be >> corrupted?" >> > > "That would depend on what's best for the Symphony as a whole." "Explain how her corruption could possibly better the Symphony; and while we're at it, what exactly she's done to deserve death in terms of personally attempting to make anything about the Symphony worse." >Marc. Just Marc. >Elohite Angel of Salvation >(Elohim. Not a real pain in the arse, but an incredible simulation.) Depends on where along the ethics scales you want to fall in simple-mindedness; the sharper Elohim from Judgment would probably retort with "Justify the expense of saving her in angelic time, effort, and resources," and then the Elohite Redeemers would join the fray, going on their basic assumption that redemption(in this case, reclaiming lost virtue) is *always* preferable to death... Ain't In Nomine fun? ^_^ William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:33:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> An indulgence in the perks of POWAH! Rose is Rose is a comic strip. It is also posted online. This is one of the series of a boy and his guardian angel. It is of PARTICULAR delight to me, for reasons that will become obvious when you read it. http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/roseisrose/archive/images/roseisrose20011827150111.gif - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2001 21:26:53 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> pronuniation On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:33 cassandra benner wrote: >How is Eli's name pronounced.. >sounds silly i know but if you have a sorcerererererer calling out for >(sounds like) Ellie (girls name spelling) >or Ely (sounds like Eeeelie) >or is it pronounced like Elliot? but with out the 'ot' bit? i've always pronounced it "EE-lie." ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2001 21:43:06 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Alex, Ethereal On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:54:27 -0500 Marc Bowden wrote: >--On Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:35 PM +0000 "-=|horsefly|=-" > wrote: >[...] >> then watch the fun as the Divine Inquisition intervenes... >> "Why are you helping this ethereal?" "She's not evil, and she's >> fighting to stay free of Hell. Should we let her die or be >> corrupted?" > "That would depend on what's best for the Symphony as a whole." [snip] >(Elohim. Not a real pain in the arse, but an incredible simulation.) i can just see an angel of War licking their lips, gearing up for seldom-used diplomacy, "I wouldn't presume to know what's best for the Symphony as a whole, but it does seem the Symphoy would do better without another minion of Hell wrecking havoc on it. Alex does not wish to be a minion of Hell, so I've been assisting her in avoiding that Fate." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:56:19 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) >At 4:57 AM -0500 1/10/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: [-5 to Songs] >No -- it's there to model the fact that IN Songs are _really_ likely to >fail until you get them up to a high level _and_ have a decent number >of Forces in the realm. So why only in the Corp/Ethe Realms? > >>If Elizabeth's description of the attunement in her message is accurate, > >>I'd probably put the value in the 10-25 point range, and probably toward > >>the higher end, since it allows the Lilim to more easily avoid Yves' > >>dissonance condition. > > > >Huh? I come to the oppositive conclusion. But, as I read the new and > >different GIN dissonance condition, I understand. > >They're not different -- they're clarified. Unless there's something >in Superiors 3 to the contrary that got in under my nose... Um . . . okay. I've always assumed that direct (which I understand to mean volitional) action can only be undertaken knowingly. The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition says: Direct: (adj) straightforward and candid in manner; without intervening persons or agencies, immediate Direct Action: (n.) The stragetic use of immediately effective acts, such as strikes, demonstrations, or sabotage, to achieve a social or political end Direct-action: (adj) Operating without intermediate ingredients, componants, stages, or processes hrm . . . I believe that my understanding of direct in the Yves dissonance condition stems from the second definition here, highlighted by the word "stragetic" which, IMHO, requires knowledge of the situation and volition. Therefore, it would be impossible to undertake a direct action unknowingly. However, it appears that the y'all (SJGames, authors etc) have considered the first and last definitions. >Yes, Servitors of Destiny can be nailed for _unknowing_ actions. If >you have a GM who is going to be a schmuck about it, don't play a >Servitor of Destiny. Of course, it will all come down to the GM and the relative "reality" levels in game. > >Question: How can someone unknowingly take a direct action? > >Turn a presumed criminal over to the cops -- when the person was >actually framed, perhaps. Lots of things, lots of things. ??? That's action sounds like it was done pretty knowingly, obviously the angel *knew* he was taking the person to the cops. I presume then, that "direct" in this case refers to the action having a direct relation to the individual's Fate/Destiny. I think it's just poorly stated in the book (at least for me). Perhaps: "They may not take any direct action that directly helps an individual to move towards his Fate; even if the angel is unware of the connection between his action to the person's Fate, he still takes Dissonance! Of course, I still feel that this is impossibly rough, since Destinies and Fates for the average Jane may be so, well, banal, that *any* action that goes beyond "average" *for that individual* could easily nudge them towards their Fate. Such as: mowing a lawn as a favor, buying someone Ice Cream, agreeing to help them perform any (seemingly) innocuous task, punishing anyone, actively refusing to take action, and *any* conversation (which, of course, has an unfortunate interaction with their Rites.) > > A 20 point value would be a +66% enhancement to > >>the Symphonic Knowledge part of resonance, which sounds reasonable to >me. > >>I could also see going with a +50% (15 points total). +100% (30 points) > >>seems too high to me. > > > >Where's the +50% versus +100% coming from? You guys just guessing here? > >The enhancements are supposed to reflect the utility of the enhancement >in the game. Or, in other words, we're guessTIMATING, not guessing! O:> Ah! Okay, that's much better. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:37:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) At 10:56 PM -0500 1/11/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>At 4:57 AM -0500 1/10/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >[-5 to Songs] >>No -- it's there to model the fact that IN Songs are _really_ likely to >>fail until you get them up to a high level _and_ have a decent number >>of Forces in the realm. > >So why only in the Corp/Ethe Realms? Two reasons. 1: To support the metaphysobabble of "Songs are penalized on other realms because they are supernatural, etc." 2: It didn't really _matter_ as much there -- few adventyres are in the celestial realm. 3: (I remembered one.) So we could say we weren't inventing a skill difficyty beyond VH; just one that paralled low mana mechanics. [Destiny] >> >Huh? I come to the oppositive conclusion. But, as I read the new and >> >different GIN dissonance condition, I understand. >> >>They're not different -- they're clarified. Unless there's something >>in Superiors 3 to the contrary that got in under my nose... > >Um . . . okay. I've always assumed that direct (which I understand to mean >volitional) action can only be undertaken knowingly. Weeeeel, no one said you _have_ to follow canon, unless you're writing something for the line... >The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition says: [snip] >However, it appears that the y'all (SJGames, authors etc) have considered >the first and last definitions. Yes. >> >Question: How can someone unknowingly take a direct action? >> >>Turn a presumed criminal over to the cops -- when the person was >>actually framed, perhaps. Lots of things, lots of things. > >??? That's action sounds like it was done pretty knowingly, obviously the >angel *knew* he was taking the person to the cops. Right -- but without knowing it was fateful. >I presume then, that "direct" in this case refers to the action having a >direct relation to the individual's Fate/Destiny. I think it's just poorly >stated in the book (at least for me). Direct -- has direct effect, and is done directly by the angel. >Of course, I still feel that this is impossibly rough, since Destinies and >Fates for the average Jane may be so, well, banal, that *any* action that >goes beyond "average" *for that individual* could easily nudge them towards >their Fate. GM decision; IMC, average poeple may have tiny destinies/fates, or great ones they may never achieve. Reincarnation is an IN fact of life. Now, if someone had not SWIPED my S3 and left it downstairs, I could check on that book and see if it is expounded upon... >> >Where's the +50% versus +100% coming from? You guys just guessing here? >> >>The enhancements are supposed to reflect the utility of the enhancement >>in the game. Or, in other words, we're guessTIMATING, not guessing! O:> > >Ah! Okay, that's much better. :) O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:50:26 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback 2) Second Round of Feedback: First off, just about all of my group is converted now. Pt totals ranged from 750 to about 1000. Attributes were a major wrench in that (both Corp 4 Forces characters were those who soared about 1000), but you knew that already. The new player to our table-top (and the GURPS system) made a character quickly with my help and totaled about 750 points, and I have the impression that 700-750 is a pretty good total for starting characters (and least, in my game, apparently). Secondly, I love the page lay-out of the book, seeing a layout using In Nomine's boxes rather than GURPS's sidebars is just really, really nice. Thirdly, I have the impression that the players are pleased to be making a lot more of their rolls on a more regular basis. So, that's good (though, it's a bit extreme in the case of our GURPS Perception 26 Bright Lilim, who's regularly making critical successes with her Resonance.) Fourthly, Artifacts: Corporeal and Ethereal Artifacts seem very simple to figure points in GIN. However, and I believe this has already been brought up on the list, figuring point costs for Celestial Artifacts has been . . . weird. I've been using mostly the Super Equipment generation rules (with some modifers found in GINpg170 which supersede those on SUpg69) rather than the Magical Item creation rules when creating/modifying weapon relics. Fortunately I'm fairly familiar with GURPS Magic, Grimoire and Technomancer, so I've got lots of fun spells to play with. My questions on artifacts would be: What modifer is used to give a normal item of "Super Equipment" the ability to leave the Corporeal realm with the Celestial? Or is there no effective point difference in the object because of something else, such as perhaps this ability is innate in Celestials/Ethereals or something akin to the fact that there is no "cost" for a human to be exist in celestial form in the afterlife (GINpg19). I didn't think it was particular clear on GINpg171 that the /pt cost/ rules for imbuing Songs in Relics are also on page 160. An errata point perhaps. Why is it more expensive (pts-wise) for a relic to hold 2 points to Essence to *only* power its Song than for a reliquary that holds /and generates/ 2 points of Essence a day? Heck, a Reliquary/6 only costs 3pts apparently! For 10pts (the equivalent of Ambidexterity or Night Vision) a Celstial may own a jacket with 10 level/1 reliquaries and 5 level/2, more than enough to seriously imbalance a game. Am I missing something here? Fifthly, Soul Damage: "make an aging roll (as per B83), substituting Will for HT. Thus, his attributes may be reduced! . . . They also roll for 'aging' of their levels of Power Investiture, seperately for each realm" Some of my PCs have Will 18. They're going to fail hardly any of their Will rolls. In IN proper, celestials were guarenteed to lose Forces, and therefore attribute levels, in Celestial combat; so I see this as being a /significant/ change. Comments? Sixthly, there is no sixthly. Seventhly, a note about converting Ethereal Artifacts. The conversion notes on GINpg213 basically just say to use the item generation rules on page 169, without mentioning the fact that characters who already possess 8 or more points in a physical skill are NOT going to get the large bonus for their Ethereal Artifact/6 if they're only putting an additional 16pts into the skills, as the Skills conversion table on GINpg206 directly suggests. (knowingly or not :) Eighthly, Please know that I am very pleased with the GURPS conversion thus far. Creating Relics is great fun with all the GURPS books I have to play with, and I'm looking forward to making good use of GURPS Creature of the Night, Black Ops, Hightech and Ultratech. I've already been very happy to be able to use GURPS Martial Arts and Warehouse 23, and I'm looking forward to converting the Songs in LCanticorum and LReliquarum. Oh, and it's very nice to have all the Resonance results tables on a single page in the back for copying purposes. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:11:26 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) > >[-5 to Songs] > >So why only in the Corp/Ethe Realms? > >Two reasons. > >1: To support the metaphysobabble of "Songs are penalized on other realms >because they are supernatural, etc." aHHa! okay, that makes me feel /much/ better. >2: It didn't really _matter_ as much there -- few adventyres are in the >celestial realm. true >3: (I remembered one.) So we could say we weren't inventing a skill >difficyty beyond VH; just one that paralled low mana mechanics. Ahhhh... >[Destiny] > >> >Huh? I come to the oppositive conclusion. But, as I read the new and > >> >different GIN dissonance condition, I understand. > >> > >>They're not different -- they're clarified. Unless there's something > >>in Superiors 3 to the contrary that got in under my nose... > > > >Um . . . okay. I've always assumed that direct (which I understand to >mean > >volitional) action can only be undertaken knowingly. > >Weeeeel, no one said you _have_ to follow canon, unless you're writing >something for the line... - -sigh- I just like it when canon /makes sense/ to me. > >The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition says: >[snip] > >However, it appears that the y'all (SJGames, authors etc) have considered > >the first and last definitions. > >Yes. Definitely. > >> >Question: How can someone unknowingly take a direct action? > >> > >>Turn a presumed criminal over to the cops -- when the person was > >>actually framed, perhaps. Lots of things, lots of things. > > > >??? That's action sounds like it was done pretty knowingly, obviously >the > >angel *knew* he was taking the person to the cops. > >Right -- but without knowing it was fateful. Giving Fate's demons the upper hand in terms of Dissonance, since they do no suffer from this /unknowing/ effect in the least. > >I presume then, that "direct" in this case refers to the action having a > >direct relation to the individual's Fate/Destiny. I think it's just >poorly > >stated in the book (at least for me). > >Direct -- has direct effect, and is done directly by the angel. Yeah yeah. Completely unvolitional and unintentional. > >Of course, I still feel that this is impossibly rough, since Destinies >and > >Fates for the average Jane may be so, well, banal, that *any* action that > >goes beyond "average" *for that individual* could easily nudge them >towards > >their Fate. > >GM decision; IMC, average poeple may have tiny destinies/fates, or great >ones they may never achieve. Reincarnation is an IN fact of life. Or just not have them, since they'd prove to be such a pain in the rear for angels of desiny who, IMHO, can't really afford to take any direct action in a person's life without using Divine Destiny on her or him, and they /certainly/ should not take any direct actions that affect *groups* of people (such as stopping a speeding bus and saving lives, or preventing large mobs from killing a convicted criminal) because they could easily Fall from grace if the dissonance from it adds up to quickly to convert into Discord fast enough. I especially like the speeding bus idea, since *stopping* a speeding bus that was started at its high velocity by a demon, would /certainly/ allow those people who would have otherwise died to continue to live and therefore move closer towards their Fate (which would have been otherwise derailed due to the interference of the demon in God's Symphony). Wow, that really puts angels of Destiny in a tight spot. Do they stop the speeding bus and possible incur Dissonance, or do they allow the change in God's Symphony to continue? hrm... >Now, if someone had not SWIPED my S3 and left it downstairs, I could check >on that book and see if it is expounded upon... That would nice. If it's the same as in Yves' expanded write-up in H&H, then I have it already. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:36:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback 2) At 12:50 AM -0500 1/12/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Second Round of Feedback: >Secondly, I love the page lay-out of the book, seeing a layout using In >Nomine's boxes rather than GURPS's sidebars is just really, really nice. That came in layout, not our doing. But I was pleasantly surprised by them as well. >Thirdly, I have the impression that the players are pleased to be making a >lot more of their rolls on a more regular basis. So, that's good (though, >it's a bit extreme in the case of our GURPS Perception 26 Bright Lilim, >who's regularly making critical successes with her Resonance.) Eeek! Eeek! Eeeeeeeek! >Fourthly, Artifacts: Corporeal and Ethereal Artifacts seem very simple to >figure points in GIN. However, and I believe this has already been brought >up on the list, figuring point costs for Celestial Artifacts has been . . . >weird. This, I leave for the mechanics maven, my dear co-author... Also any conversion stuff. I mostly just pointed out the evilness of stuff like Singing and whatnot. O:> >Fifthly, Soul Damage: "make an aging roll (as per B83), substituting Will I'm leaving this one for him as well -- primarily because what bits I did on combat, I did from his notes. (I wrote a _lot_ more of that book than I'd been planning, because of those EEEEVIL attunement figurings...) >Eighthly, Please know that I am very pleased with the GURPS conversion thus >far. Yay! >and I'm looking forward >to converting the Songs in LCanticorum and LReliquarum. You and William J. Keith, I believe? You two should get together on that -- I think he's been going through the Canticorum and doing that some... >Oh, and it's very >nice to have all the Resonance results tables on a single page in the back >for copying purposes. _That_ bit of layout, I take complete credit for. I worked for it. O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:01:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback) At 1:11 AM -0500 1/12/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >> >[-5 to Songs] >> >So why only in the Corp/Ethe Realms? >> >>Two reasons. >> >>1: To support the metaphysobabble of "Songs are penalized on other realms >>because they are supernatural, etc." > >aHHa! okay, that makes me feel /much/ better. Seriously, we came up with the realization that we needed to penalize Songs _harshly_ to fit with the IN probabilities a bit better. Then we needed metaphysobabble to explain it (so it wasn't a New Ultra-Hard Skill thing), and then it seemed fairly logical to let it work fine in its "native" plane. >>[Destiny] >>>Um . . . okay. I've always assumed that direct (which I understand to >>>mean volitional) action can only be undertaken knowingly. My understanding of Volitional, as it happens, is that you do it of your own free will, without coercian or predestination. Mind-control the angel so that it has no free will, and no dissonance. (E.g., someone gets a form of Song of Possession that mimicks Shedite resonance on celestials.) Well, probably no dissonance. The internal screaming of the angel might be enough to generate some... >>Weeeeel, no one said you _have_ to follow canon, unless you're writing >>something for the line... > >-sigh- I just like it when canon /makes sense/ to me. Ya can't please everyone all of the time. If you have it the other way, where the Destiny Servitor has to _knowingly_ push someone fate-wards, then none of them will take Divine Destiny, never use it if they're given it, and their dissonance condition is about as restrictive as Eli's. They're angels, they're _supposed_ to be careful about what they do with the humans around them. They're Destiny Servitors, they're supposed to know that the Symphony works in the most effing ineffable ways... >> >> >Question: How can someone unknowingly take a direct action? >> >> >> >>Turn a presumed criminal over to the cops -- when the person was >> >>actually framed, perhaps. Lots of things, lots of things. >> > >> >??? That's action sounds like it was done pretty knowingly, obviously >>the >> >angel *knew* he was taking the person to the cops. >> >>Right -- but without knowing it was fateful. > >Giving Fate's demons the upper hand in terms of Dissonance, since they do no >suffer from this /unknowing/ effect in the least. Yes -- and it's specifically spelled out in their case, which is another thing that leads me to the conclusion that Destiny gets a stickier deal. >> >I presume then, that "direct" in this case refers to the action having a >> >direct relation to the individual's Fate/Destiny. I think it's just >>poorly >> >stated in the book (at least for me). >> >>Direct -- has direct effect, and is done directly by the angel. > >Yeah yeah. Completely unvolitional and unintentional. No one made him do it, so it's perfectly volitional. It's unintentional, but hey, we know where Good Intentions pave the way to... >>GM decision; IMC, average poeple may have tiny destinies/fates, or great >>ones they may never achieve. Reincarnation is an IN fact of life. > >Or just not have them, since they'd prove to be such a pain in the rear for >angels of desiny who, IMHO, can't really afford to take any direct action in >a person's life without using Divine Destiny on her or him, and they >/certainly/ should not take any direct actions that affect *groups* of >people (such as stopping a speeding bus and saving lives, or preventing >large mobs from killing a convicted criminal) because they could easily Fall >from grace if the dissonance from it adds up to quickly to convert into >Discord fast enough. This is another GM call -- I, for one, would be fine with letting someone process the stuff into Discord "fast enough." Or whap them with all the dissonance at once and only require 1 dissonance roll, or otherwise give them a slight break so the game doesn't crash and burn. IN requires a fair amount of GM judgement calls -- it has to, even in GURPS. And yeah, Servitors of Destiny should be careful when doing things to large numbers of humans. >I especially like the speeding bus idea, since *stopping* a speeding bus >that was started at its high velocity by a demon, would /certainly/ allow >those people who would have otherwise died to continue to live and therefore >move closer towards their Fate That's not a _direct_ action in the same way, I'd say. Not unless "getting out of the bus for the 359th time" was someone's fate. Now, if the angel whipped out the Great Whacking Flaming Sword and cut down the demon driver in front of them all, causing Little Jimmy to renounce religion and become a serial killer... Humans get Free Will; if they continue to live, the minor celestial bobble in their lives swiftly contained, then they get to choose fate or destiny. Basically, as a GM, I'd pretty much restrict it to _direct_ action. As in, the angel is doing something, personally, which disrupts the normal course of events. It is, basically, a major judgment call, and how harsh it is depends _utterly_ on the GM's impressions of Free Will, fates, and destinies. E.g., I wouldn't dump dissonance on an angel for paying with $2 bills _unless_ I had pre-determined that the teller's fate was directly concerned with $2 bills and this could really be a turning point. If the teller took the bills and replaced them with normal dollars, then no problem; if the teller was generally a petty thief and would steal from the till anyway, then the angel wasn't pushing, so no dissonance. If the angel somehow _encouraged_ the "petty thief" to steal something _bigger_, that's a real step. Think Shedite here, actually -- is the action actually "corrupting" in some way? If not, then the Destiny Servitor takes no dissonance. If the teller was a collector of rare monies, and pocketed the stuff and got caught before he slipped extra money back, therefore pushing him towards something like, "Die an obscure migrant worker and petty thief"... Well, maybe the Destiny Servitor had better quickly review what he did recently and work to fix it. >>Now, if someone had not SWIPED my S3 and left it downstairs, I could check >>on that book and see if it is expounded upon... > >That would nice. If it's the same as in Yves' expanded write-up in H&H, >then I have it already. There was stuff munged on some. No way can I manage that without waking the babe, which I'd rather not do. (The ANNOYING thing is that the second copy of S3 was _already_ down there.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:04:36 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine (feedback 2) > >Second Round of Feedback: > >Thirdly, I have the impression that the players are pleased to be making >a > >lot more of their rolls on a more regular basis. So, that's good >(though, > >it's a bit extreme in the case of our GURPS Perception 26 Bright Lilim, > >who's regularly making critical successes with her Resonance.) > >Eeek! Eeek! Eeeeeeeek! Hey, don't look at me, it's your (Perception X 2) + 2 at work. :) Oh, and did I mention he also has, uh, Will 18. :) Yes, our Lilim of Yves is now our Celestial Combat Monster. Pratically indestructible, fast as Hell, and toting a Celestial Shotgun to boot. :) Seth's Celestial Shotgun: Ethereal Artifact: [24] +48pts of Guns/TL7 skill Celestial Artifact: [14] Highlander Effect (Simple Illusion and Illusion Shell (Mpg45-6) spells twice each, once for sight, once for touch (GM fiat), Only While beneath something -30%) this allows Seth to "suddenly" have his gun. [29] Generic Crushing Attack Power 4 - -10% full power only, +0% uses Guns/TL7 skill to activate power, +30% Hotshot (since GURPS faigue won't be use for much else, why not?), +20% Instanteous, -10% Exclusivity, -10% Leave mental signature (and as we /do/ have Psis as CotG IMC, this actually means something), +0% Special Effect: looks, sounds, and smells like a normal shotgun. *Artifact Modifers to cost: (Note: all artifacts are assumed indestructible unless otherwise specified, and can be stolen with either a contest of DX or ST unless otherwise stated) -20% -2 to hit, -5% HP 21 DR 120, about x3 normal shotgun -25% unique Total Cost: 34pts Not that this is particularly revelant, but it's nice GIN flavor perhaps. > >Fourthly, Artifacts: Corporeal and Ethereal Artifacts seem very simple >to > >figure points in GIN. However, and I believe this has already been >brought > >up on the list, figuring point costs for Celestial Artifacts has been . . >. > >weird. > >This, I leave for the mechanics maven, my dear co-author... Also any >conversion stuff. I mostly just pointed out the evilness of stuff like >Singing and whatnot. O:> I look forward to his comments. :) > >Fifthly, Soul Damage: "make an aging roll (as per B83), substituting Will > >I'm leaving this one for him as well -- primarily because what bits I >did on combat, I did from his notes. (I wrote a _lot_ more of that book >than I'd been planning, because of those EEEEVIL attunement figurings...) Bwahahaha hee hee hee > >Eighthly, Please know that I am very pleased with the GURPS conversion >thus > >far. > >Yay! > > >and I'm looking forward > >to converting the Songs in LCanticorum and LReliquarum. > >You and William J. Keith, I believe? You >two should get together on that -- I think he's been going through the >Canticorum and doing that some... William J. Keith? Okay:wjk150@email.psu.edu I love technology. > >Oh, and it's very > >nice to have all the Resonance results tables on a single page in the >back > >for copying purposes. > >_That_ bit of layout, I take complete credit for. I worked for it. O:> ThankyouThankyouthankyou :) - -Perry, kfc perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2016 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.