From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 26 21:13:55 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA30619 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:13:54 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA30641 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:15:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:15:47 -0600 Message-Id: <200101270315.VAA30641@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2035 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2035 In this digest: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> On Ethereals [Was Re: An Open Letter from Laurence] Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Re: IN> On Ethereals [Was Re: An Open Letter from Laurence] IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale Re: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale IN> The Crusade of the Sword Re: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale IN> ADMIN (Re: A Davidian manifesto> Finale) Re: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale IN> The War of Dreams Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:37:31 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. > >Check out Superiors 1. Michael's *canon* position re: the Purity Crusade >was almost entirely as I outlined it -- according to Michael, it was a >waste >of resources, a foolish gambit, and alienated far too many potential allies >and turned them into bitter enemies. But still, he didn't stop it, and he could have challenged Uriel at any time. Ditto for the others. Even Blandine retreated to her tower rather than actively oppose the crusade. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:44:47 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. From: "Ben Glickler" > > First, we presuppose that the Purity Crusade was wrong. Which, as written, it was. > Second, we base our judgement on limited information. When among that information is the direct statement of Michael, archangel of War, that it was a wasteful mistake, does its being limited have any bearing on whether it is correct? As the archangel of War, Michael has the greatest insight into warfare of any living being (and as Firstborn, he also has the benefit of age and experience over all others, to boot.) This gives his judgment of whether the Purity Crusade was a good or bad move on Uriel's part more weight than even Uriel's. > Michael might oppose because he did the job first. Nothing I have ever read about Michael in In Nomine supports this premise. > In any case, Michael's opinions are generally good ones, but we must > remember that Michael wants to fight Hell, not Ethereals, and views the war > through that perspective. That is because it is the forces of Hell who are far and away the more important target. But you ignore one important item here: As the best suited to judge the tactical and strategic value of all possible targets in the war between Heaven and Hell, the fact that he views Hell as the more important focus of Heaven's efforts carries almost as much weight as the hypothetical rock too big for God to lift. > Blandine's word *does* require compassion in face of reason. Not in any of the writeups I have ever seen, Ben. Not even Novalis requires compassion in the face of reason, unless you consider requiring giving others at least one chance to be better than they are to qualify. But let's take another archangel whom you cannot under any circumstance claim has a Word requiring compassion over reason, then: Dominic. Judgment's dissonance conditions require every punishment to fit the crime, and exterminating every ethereal due to the actions of a select number of ethereals is the exact sort of excessive punishment that a servitor of Dominic would face dissonance (and perhaps even discord) for engaging in. > Why do people assume Uriel was dissonant for massacring Ethereals, but > nobody even suggests that Jordi might have been dissonant for assuming > Ethereals were his to protect? He only felt a need to protect ethereal Animals, since, as animals, they fell under the aegis of his Word. > We just have to make so many assumptions about Uriel, but nobody asks > themselves if maybe, just maybe, Uriel was in the right. Because none of the written evidence indicates that he was. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:46:52 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > We just have to make so many assumptions about Uriel, but nobody asks > > themselves if maybe, just maybe, Uriel was in the right. > > No, this looks like that you've *assumed* that nobody has ever asked > themselves this. I was going to offer the Tsayadim as proof that somebody had asked themselves whether Uriel was right, until I realised that the question *they* asked was actually "Why doesn't anybody else realise that Uriel was right?" instead. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:49:11 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Hart" To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 8:37 PM Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. > >Check out Superiors 1. Michael's *canon* position re: the Purity Crusade > >was almost entirely as I outlined it -- according to Michael, it was a > >waste of resources, a foolish gambit, and alienated far too many potential allies > >and turned them into bitter enemies. > > But still, he didn't stop it, and he could have challenged Uriel at any > time. Ditto for the others. Even Blandine retreated to her tower rather than > actively oppose the crusade. But Uriel *was* still the Commander of the Host, right up until the second that God yanked him into the Higher Heavens. To think -- or even to say publicly -- that the Commander of the Host has got his head up his fourth point of contact [1] is one thing. To not only disobey him but openly fight against him and, in effect, to attempt to depose him from his post is something else again entirely. To attempt to usurp the Commander of the Host -- which, given Uriel's utter lack of compromise on his position, is what would have been required to stop him -- is to defy the word of God directly, something that *none* of the Archangels (*especially* Michael) would be willing to contemplate doing. As I understand it, the only entity that can relieve the Commander of the Host of his position against his will is God himself. Which explains the helplessness of his fellow Archangels to attempt to stop Uriel by any means other than persuasion (which was utterly futile) up until God did it himself. - -- Chuckg [1] Paratrooper reference. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:56:57 -0800 From: "Morgan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> On Ethereals [Was Re: An Open Letter from Laurence] Actually, according to my classic mythology class, it's the opposite. Ares in Greek Mythology is a brute, a berserker, and a coward (and not incredibly great at fighting). Mars is the god of fertility and war, a great tactition and an excellent warrior. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" To: Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 10:00 AM Subject: Re: IN> On Ethereals [Was Re: An Open Letter from Laurence] > > Ares, actually, used to be like this -- till he merged with that thug, > Mars. IIRC. It's been a few years since that Mythology class, though I > think the teacher compared Ares' loss of status with Venus' gain when > she conflated with Aphrodite. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:13:47 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. > As I understand it, the only entity that can relieve the Commander of the > Host of his position against his will is God himself. On second thought -- In theory, Dominic could Judge the Commander of the Host guilty of something entirely on his ownsome and sentence him. However, in practice that hasn't worked. God may not interfere in anything else, but when it comes to this particular topic he's a known repeat offender buttinsky. (And Dominic didn't make Michael step down anyway. Michael resigned voluntarily rather than have to keep putting up with the political [bleep]. If Michael had stood fast and told Dominic "No, why don't you *MAKE* me step down as Commander of the Host?", he'd most likely be commanding the Host yet.) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:25:54 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. At 1:52 PM -0600 1/26/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >I think LoneWolf's theory did it best -- Uriel was massively dissonant and >Discordant by the time of the Crusade (you think *Gabriel* has >impossible-to-fill dissonance conditions? Check out the ones David >Edelstein laid out for a servitor of Purity! I can *see* the theory here, but I can't accept it. I think if Uriel was that crossed to his own Word, his Servitors would have started Falling. They haven't because they're Pure. Well, the Archangel who epitomized them and their Word should be just that. It's already been stated (I believe in Canon) that Laurence has never -- ever -- been dissonant. Not one note. He is the perfect Knight, to the Purest of Lieges. I'm one of those who doesn't care for Uriel based on his actions. However, when I was first on here lo those months ago, I ended up getting spacked by some of the cognoscenti when I said it. M. Edelstein was one of them, and he had a point that before then had never penetrated my brain: We don't *know* who was right. Dominic refused to Judge, and Dominic is *always* willing to Judge. And there was evidence in Uriel's favor. Ethereals live off of the Essence of humans -- just like Impudites! Ethereals promote religions that draw humanity away from what Uriel *knew* to be true. (Remember, from the point of view of the Archangels at least, God *is* God and an 'Ethereal God' is *lying* to humanity by definition.) And when God recalled Uriel, did he do so to punish him, or because Uriel could no longer serve the Host in his post, so recalling him was the only possible kindness. Was it exoneration or condemnation. We don't know. We can't know. So, IMC Uriel wasn't even slightly dissonant. He did his actions for the good of Heaven (from his point of view -- trying to draw the fractious Archangels together for a good cause. See the Gulf War, see the second World War, and see Clinton's military actions in Bosnia for one that worked about as well as the Purity Crusade.) He may have been tragically, horrifically wrong (or he may not have been), but he was *certain.* I'm reminded of the Dominic/Gabriel discussion. In Superiors, it states that Dominic couldn't help what he had to do to Gabriel -- he *is* Judgement. And Gabriel couldn't help her reaction. She *is* Fire. Well, Purity did what it had to, Animals did what it had to, and Dreams did what it had to, and in the end even Dominic (who *must* Judge fairly if he can) couldn't render Judgement. Even as Michael had to be outraged by the Purity Crusade, because it made such poor tactical and strategic sense. Hm... first we had War as commander-in-chief, whose Word drove him to victory, always. Then we had Purity, whose Word drove him to incorruptability and purification, always. And now... the Sword, whose Word drives him to honor before all else.... It's an interesting evolution, if you think about it.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:33:17 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. At 2:44 PM -0600 1/26/01, Prodigal wrote: >From: "Ben Glickler" >> >> First, we presuppose that the Purity Crusade was wrong. > >Which, as written, it was. Mm. No, I think it's CDaU. It's canon that lots of people didn't *like* it, but that doesn't mean it was *wrong.* - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:58:17 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" To: Cc: "Charles Glasgow" Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 2:26 PM Subject: Re: IN> An Open Letter from Laurence [text of a memo sent to Dominic's office from Michael, referring to Dominic's recent editorial in the "Daily Revelation". Kudos to whichever anonymous Windy or whoever managed to snag a copy and paste it on the bulletin board at the Movable Paradise, but he'd better not stand up to receive said kudos 'cause Dominic is all kinds of pissed let us tell you. Even if this is backdated old stuff from right after Dominic's first letter and well before we found out just what Laurence was up to out in the Marches, it's still hot stuff!] (note -- OOC, what actually happened was that due to some kind of e-mail bug back at the time Eric and I ended up sending our thread contributions directly to each other instead of to the list, and we didn't notice it until we were about four e-mails in. So we're going back into our "Sent:" folders and re-sending to list. Eric, your move.) [quote] ========= From: Michael, Archangel of War To: Dominic, Archangel of Judgement [faint tracings on the page make it appear that something else had been written first, erased, and then overwritten] Subject: The Purity Crusade, the "Daily Revelation", and you > [Being a note written in response to the Laurencian Editorial and the Michaelite Response] > > While I would never presume to stand between the Commander-General of > all the Lord's Armies and the Firstborn Archangel of War and Champion > of Heaven, Whoa. How'd you avoid taking dissonance for that one? > I feel it necessary to lay forth some clarifications. Clear as mud. [SNIP] > I would remind the Archangels of the Sword and War that Opinions > remain that, and Truth cannot be determined at this time. IOW, you needed six paragraphs and sixty-two lines of text just to say "I don't know and I don't think anybody else does either." For *you*, that's downright terse. BTW, while you are right in that *you* ducked having to make any formal decisions in court on this one, I might remind you that Somebody Else *did* make a decision. And while you might debate on what that decision actually was, *I* haven't seen Uriel around lately -- more's the pity. Michael ======= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:24:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. [snip: Uriel was right!] [snip: Uriel was wrong!] And you know what? The actual rightness or wrongness of that is, far as I'm concerned... ...here it comes... ...you know the drill... ...all together now... Canon Doubt and Uncertainty. So getting into great big gory arguments over this (I count 11 more posts with this title to go, and they'd better not be big gory arguments) is, basically, pointless. You can come up with interesting takes on it, and you might be able to convince some fence-sitters, but I'm just gonna sit back and go, "Gee, that's an interesting take." So don't anyone get emotionally involved with Being Right About Uriel. Because there _is_ no Right About Uriel to be. Heck, I'm the sort of person, I ever ran a Uriel Comes Back game, I'd probably flip a coin about his Rightness or Wrongness, or run two of them (one of each). O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:36:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On Ethereals [Was Re: An Open Letter from Laurence] At 12:56 PM -0800 1/26/01, Morgan Thomas wrote: >Actually, according to my classic mythology class, it's the opposite. Ares >in Greek Mythology is a brute, a berserker, and a coward (and not incredibly >great at fighting). Mars is the god of fertility and war, a great tactition >and an excellent warrior. Told ya it'd been a few years. O:> (And I swear I don't know where my course book has gotten off to. *sigh* I came across my English-Hebrew dictionary a while back, and it was still packed. Still _is_ packed, for that matter, and I _still_ don't know where my Gods and Devils dictionary is. *snivel* ) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. "I'm nursing a TROUT! With legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:26:10 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale As you wish Michael. I will hold you to the wrestling match when you will and intend to hold it on the Earth for vessels. I think you may just discover I'm the better man in this righteous cause but in the meantime let's deal with this issue and the effects that may be occuring as fallout. To use one of Yves and Dominic's word as well a rebuttal to your words. A> Without the ethereal gods to promote their religeon the world is a far safer place for Celestials. You may not believe it Firstborn but the Purity Crusade SUCEEDED in it's aim and allowed monotheism to take root and the religeons of Abraham across most of the world. B> What Beleth got was a tien of Fairies every year that normally would work for her as mercanaries, the services of a few Aztec, Egyptian, and otherwise evil gods....show me these horrid legions serving Hell that we would not kill anyway? I'm sure Set would have been a vaunted ally to us had not the Purity Crusade wiped him out....please note my ineffability should not keep you from recognizing that as sarcasm. C> Your supposed "good" gods that would be our allies never joined beleth because they are impossible to do so because they lack free will. If Osiris, Thor, and other such deities had survived by their very nature as pale immitations of God they would never have joined him....they can no more become evil because of Heaven's persecuting them than they can prove they are the billions of years of age we witnessed without them. They could still steal essence, impede us, and oppose us however holding bizzare beliefs not truly holy. D> The undead pact has to be willingly performed Lord Michael and is a mortal sin. They have souls but they are now celestially tied to their form. Ethereals are for lack of a better term "born this way" and thus I believe it the intention of god they be temporarey as I have chiseled in my tablet report to the Prophet. E> Uriel was never dissonant or discordant and he was incorruptable. Indeed he more than any drove out impurity from his followers of denying his nature. I do not believe he was mad but acting within the very real acknowledgement that drastic measures had to be taken before a pact with Hell was made with the Ethereal gods to drive heaven and monotheism and heaven from the Earth. Do you disbelieve such a pact might have occured? Hell needs not worship but Heaven needs truth Uriel was fond of saying. Stone is patient Firstborn and perhaps you will be vindicated and controlling these illusionary beings (if Dominic does not want me saying soulless) or "chimmeria" will lead to a better state for humanity. Perhaps Uriel might return and say he is wrong on the last day. Perhaps Lucifer might return tommorow and reveal the entire War was a prank inspired by Kobal and apologize for it. We shall see. F> I was hopeing Laurence would hear my words directly. *** Well Beth, beutiful Beth, Archdean, Keeper of the List, Archivist, and Ethereal goddess of In Nomine mailing list, holder of the bouncing Impudite prince...and numerous other titles...has requested that we end this extended IC chat about the Purity Crusade. I personally want to thank the creator and would love to see him write an ending to the work because it was so interesting. It really I think reflects the opinions of the various Superiors on Uriel and his Purity Crusade accurately. (Though I'm fairly sure Jean would have said "What's done is done. Why bother asking whether something is wrong after it's done? The question is now whether Uriel is competant now to serve as commander of the Host and what to do if he is not? Objectively the Crusade is either mass slaughter or excision of cancer. I move to investigate which is true) David's reaction was my favorite because personally I was shocked really when I started to think about his opinions just how eloquent and well thought out his opinions probably were. I was actually very shocked also when I typed in "You are Wrong" to Michael which I never really thought until that momment ANY angel would tell Michael (kudos to who plays him). But I think David really more than any angel is willing to stand up to Michael. interesting stuff - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:48:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale At 5:26 PM -0500 1/26/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >*** > >Well Beth, beutiful Beth, Archdean, Keeper of the List, Archivist, and >Ethereal goddess of In Nomine mailing list, holder of the bouncing Impudite >prince...and numerous other titles...has requested that we end this extended >IC chat about the Purity Crusade. Or take it to private email and put the results up on a web-page. I have no problems with private email and URLs. O:> - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:47:45 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Crusade of the Sword This is an interesting discussion and really theres a bizzare parralell I see in sort of the right to life movement. Basically the question of whether or not a being has a soul/life and whether that gaurentees them the right to exist and also the question of whether or not there should indeed be a death penalty....if so what. The Purity Crusade seems intially something placed there for moral ambiguity because Heaven is basically an okay bunch of guys and if your a demon player you want something to note that maybe it's okay to fight In Nomine's heaven because their not as lilly white squeaky clean as they claim to be. At least that's my .02 of why the Purity Crusade was included...plus it's a really cool concept. From what I got on the list theres really three views in Heaven about the Purity Crusade. A> The Ethereals are illusions of Humanity's unconcious Basically David's view IMHO, Laurence (before this mess), and Khalid's view. Given he was blood brothers with David, the mentor and patron of Laurence, and the superior and creator of Khalid it's quite possible this is Uriel's view as well. Ethereals are more or less memories, images, and enduring aspects of humanity's beliefs and sometimes on occasion these beliefs become self perpetuating because humanity WANTS them to be. The question might be does this make it any more right to kill them but in the above Archangel's opinion that answer might be a resounding YES because it makes it appear to them these are really just figments of human imagination, illusions conjured by Beleth and nervosa, etc to haunt human minds. To Uriel it wasn't so much a war on a race of beings but it was "housecleaning" humanity of emotional baggage. Going in and removing painful trauma.... whether THAT is right is nother question. B:) Ethereals are the grandchildren of God This is probably the belief of God, Jordi, Eli, Novalis, and Blandine. Basically it postulates that human beings create ensouled beings who have a place in the cosmos and who are to be cherished as part of God's creation and dealt with as mortals, angels, or demons. Educated in their ignorance (God is not an ethereal) and cherished as part of the human condition. Uriel's actions were nothing different than Hitlers or other acts of ethnic cleansing and he is rightfully viewed as mad because of it not viewed as a protector. C:) It doesn't matter This is the view I think of Michael, Yves, and Dominic. The other Archangels I think were undecided or lent one way or the other. Basically Michael and Dominic don't know if Ethereals have souls in the traditional sense but recognize the act had profound consquences for heaven's stability, morality, and the War in general. Yves knows the truth but he isn't sharing and even if Ethereals are illusions as beings he knows that they have a purpose in God's creation. If they aren't then the same but he has witnessed great horror done by people who thought they were good and hating Uriel will do no good especially when so many trusted him...including himself to do the right thing. My personal opinion It doesn't matter. Stopping evil ethereals is a major thing to be done and I think personally Heaven should preserve humanity's legacy. I personally believe that Ethereals are ensouled beings with their own fate and destiny but I also recognize how sensible this plan must have seemed to a man who hated hell with all his heart, loved God, loved humanity, but never thought there might be something else. Just a thought. - -Charlemagne Now was the Crusade a SUCESS is the question ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:29:12 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: Re: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale > Well Beth, beutiful Beth, Archdean, Keeper of the List, Archivist, and > Ethereal goddess of In Nomine mailing list, holder of the bouncing Impudite > prince...and numerous other titles...has requested that we end this extended > IC chat about the Purity Crusade. IC? This hasn't been IC. It's been a argument war based on the nitpicky details, thinly disguised as an in-character debate. It's been an excuse for the more pugnacious folks on the list to do an item-by-item argument. Whoever compared the so-called Michael response to a teenaged USENET rant was right on the money. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:00:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN (Re: A Davidian manifesto> Finale) Might I note that the discussion is, as has been noted, over on the list, and if it continues, is going to be private email and posted on some website somewhere, and that making comments about it is quite unnecessary, even flammage, and I don't want to see any off-topic stuff about it. (Private complaints will be looked at and shrugged over; private praise will give me a nice warm fuzzy feeling. That's where commentary on this decision should be, though -- private.) - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:03:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Davidian manifesto> Finale At 5:48 PM -0500 1/26/01, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 5:26 PM -0500 1/26/01, Charles Phipps wrote: > >>*** >> >>Well Beth, [...] holder of the bouncing Impudite >>prince... Just to indulge my desire to abuse my power... That's Impudite PrinceSS. I quite assure you that Iolanthe is female, and will thank everyone to remember that little tidbit of information and get it _right_. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:02:53 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> The War of Dreams The more this keeps going, and the more I keep getting some new ideas for this... Enjoy this batch. ^^ Greetings, fellow Celestials. By the time this message reaches you, the Celtic gods will have reached Blandine's Tower and made their vows of Fealty to Heaven, along with Alberich, king of the Dwarves, and his court. The standard welcome is to be given to them. Just so you know, I have taken measures to keep in touch with matters in Heaven, through the aid of select Relievers with access to the Celestial Song of Tongues. They've kept me in touch with the various affairs in Heaven, and are now relaying this message back to Heaven. Michael, I thank you for your commending of my actions. That means a lot to me. David, Khalid, my brothers in choir and spirit, words cannot express my dismay at your disaprovment of my decision to recruite the Ethereals. But I am determined to continue this quest. And as soon as I relate this tale to you, I hope that you understand why it is so vital that we bring the good Ethereals into Heaven's light... As for the matter of the Tsayadim... There is no one who regrets my actions more then I. I begged Asmodel to surrender and return to Heaven. I actually fell on my knees and wept as I pleaded reason with him. His only answer was to spit in my face, call me a traitor to Purity and lunged at me, with the intention of slaying me. I had no choice but to defend myself as best I could. I tried to subdue him, but in the end, he forced my hand, and I had to slay him. I cried tears of grief and guilt as I held him until the end. I could do no more for him, but have King Arthur's Court return with him to Heaven, so that he may rest near Castle Purity with honor. Though grief fills my heart, I must nonetheless go on with my Quest. Even moreso now, as you'll soon understand... As I've progressed through the Marches, I've attracted a few companions from the various Ethereal Domains I've converted. A Daoine Sidhe Bard by the name of Laucian chose to follow me from Lord Auberon's court, to serve as a Guide and a witness of my good Intent to other Ethereals. I also gained the assistance of Sir Galahad, the Knight from King Arthur's court, Cuchulain from the Celtic Lands, and Taklinn, a Dwarven Enchanter, all of which felt the need to follow me and aid me in my Quest to restore Honor and Justice in the Marches. Together, with these new companions, I walked towards the Ethereal Domains inspired by the legends of late King Charlemagne. I hoped to rally another Christian Ethereal to Heaven's cause, but my companions and I were horrified to find the keep and it's surrounding grounds in ashes and ruins. My first thought, shameful that it was, was that a few of the Tsayadim had preceded me to this keep of good, Christian spirits. But as we entered the domain, I instantly recognized the stench of Infernal Presence instead. As we approached the ruined castle of Charlemagne (Now crucified upside down in front of it, the greatest of personal insults), I called out loudly to the Demon who's work I had instantly recognized. And, as expected, the gates opened, revealing Saminga, Hellish Prince of Death. He had chosen the appearance of the Grim Reaper, only with added blood and gore to his form, riddled with maggots and worms. He simply grinned at me with his rotted teeth. We held the following conversation: "What have you done here, you wretched Beast?" "What, isn't it obvious? I've only taken a page right out of your good Ol' Uriel's own book. I'm PURIFYING the Marches..." "Don't you Dare Insult Uriel's Memory so, Demon!" "Oh, I'm not insulting him... Hell, I respect the guy. Killing in the battlefield or out of passion is one thing... But it takes an Artist to to commit Genocide. And I can't let YOU insult Uriel's memory by trying to undo the Purity Crusade. Especially since it would harm Beleth's word so much. So I've decided to do a little Purifying of my Own..." By this time, my own companions were seething and ready to simply attack the Dread Prince. I had to turn and raise my hand to hold them back, while Saminga continued his rant. Though, truth be told, It took as much Self-Control I could muster to keep myself from simply throwing myself at the Shedite's throats. Michael, I have to thank you for teaching me to wait until the right moment to strike. Lest I would've fallen into his trap: "As you can see, Saminga... There are more then one of us here. Tell me why I shouldn't just slay you here and now?" "Oh, I don't have that much of a reason, truth be told. Except maybe... THEM!" With that, a dozen Trolls and Ogres burst out of the Castle Walls, and attacked me and my companions. While my Ethereal allies dealt with the Trolls, Saminga lunged at me with a blood-colored, jagged-edge blade, barely allowing me the time to draw my own blade to defend myself. The Prince of Death and I dueled for a few moments, while my companions dealt with the Nightmarish Ethereals. Meanwhile, Saminga kept ranting: "As you can see, I've taken a few pages out of YOUR book as well! I recruited those Trolls, making them Soldiers of Hell in exchange for all the Essence they can scare out of Humans... Minus a small percentage, of course." "Are they aware that you'll slay them as soon as their purpose is done, Shedite?" "What, and hurt morale? Shame on you for even considering it..." Fortunetly, God must've been with us on this day, for my companions managed to hold on against the Trolls and Ogres, slaying them while I manage to deal Saminga a few good strikes, forcing him to retreat. He did leave a warning before chasing: "This isn't over, Blackwing! You think the Purity Crusade was a Blood Bath? Once I'm true with the Val of Dreams, The Crusade will look like a Children's Birthday Party!" And with that, Saminga shifted forms into a Bat-like Shedite, flying off in direction of the Norse Domains, my next destination. I have no doubts that he desires to recruit Loki and the Giants of Ice and Fire, to fight on Hell's behalf, and that he means to bring about a new Ragnarock, slaying the Asgardians before I have a chance to speak with them. I have also no doubts that he eventually means to attack Blandine's Tower, with the intention of slaying the Ethereals already on our side, causing a surge of influence for the Word of Nightmares. My Fellow Celestials, what I had intended as a simple Quest for personal Justice has now become an Recruitment Race against Hell itself, for the spirits of the Marches themselves. The longer I spend here, the more I am convinced that the Marches may hold the key to Final Victory in the War itself. But only if we step up actions of Good and Justice here, lest Hell turn all of Mankind's dreams into Nightmares, and brings mankind one step closer to it's final Fate. David, I hereby appoint you the task of aiding Blandine establish permanent fortifications at the foot of her Tower, to insure protection for the Ethereals already in our service, as well as for the future Recruits I aim to send in the future. Khalid, I will soon be recruiting the Ethereal Spirits created by stories of the Middle East, such as Sinbad, Al'Adin and King 'Antar, the Warrior Poet. Your personal opinion on Ethereals aside, I remind you that they are spirits with the minds of Good Muslims, and as such deserve the mercy and justice of Heaven. Dominic, Novalis, I have heard you were now collaborating in keeping Heaven's peace. I commend you, and must now ask you to inforce my commands in this task. Michael, I instruct you and all other Angels currently operating on Earth to enhance the protection of Tethers of Dreams, as I have no doubt that they will become targets in the near future. Do not yet begin to attack known Tethers of Nightmares until I have given you the order. First we fortify and recruit, then we strike, as I believe you've taught me. Never have I understood your teachings better then now. You once told me that every good sword need to be tempered and tested before it is truly used. I believe God has finally given me the chance to Test myself. I only hope that I'm up to the task. God be with you all in these times. Laurence Malakite Archangel of the Sword Commander of the Host of the Armies of God. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:44:49 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity At 07:09 PM 1/25/01 -0600, you wrote: >Never said she could sing, just that she would disagree about whether >Malakim in general could. She's a creationcer, so she's got to know at least >*ONE* who can... I understand that Laurence sings a lovely counter-tenor. - -EDG (*gdr*) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:59:15 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity >From: EDG > >I understand that Laurence sings a lovely counter-tenor. > Really? I heard that his voice hadn't broken yet. m. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:24:46 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jo Hart" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 12:59 AM Subject: Re: IN> Utter fluff that makes me question my sanity > >From: EDG > > > >I understand that Laurence sings a lovely counter-tenor. > Really? I heard that his voice hadn't broken yet. No, that's Christopher's problem. Although he's not a Malakite, of course. Speaking of Malakite singers, you haven't lived until you've heard David cut loose with his basso profundo The only problem is that he keeps singing in largo no matter *what* tempo the score originally called for. *g* - -- Chuckg. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:11:32 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Crusade of the Sword. Charles Glasgow wrote: > This posits a degree of petty spite on Michael's part that not even canon > supports. Sure, Michael's capable of holding a grudge till eternity is over > and then some, but he's always been written as accepting of the chain of > command. Not without complaints, though. He accepts the fact that Laurence IS Commander of the Host, and assumes God had His reasons for putting the kid there, but that doesn't keep Michael from thinking Laurence is a screw-up on occassion. > Again, this works both ways -- we must remember that Uriel's perspective is > even *further* away from objectivity than Michael is. Not necessarily. > Purity is a word that > *requires* the holder to be inflexibly closed-minded. Not necessarily. I could easily conceive of an angel of Purity, or even an alternate Archangel of Purity, who is not. > I mean, how can you simultaneously argue that Uriel should be presumed right > because of Archangelic superintelligence while the vast majority of the > other Archangels in Heaven all agree that the Purity Crusade was not a good > move? Actually, that's not correct. Most Archangels have various criticisms of how the Crusade was conducted, at the very least, but there is no unanimous consensus that the Crusade itself was a bad thing. > I thought that Blandine assumed that Ethereals were hers to protect... Blandine's job isn't to protect ethereals. I think I'll be staying out of this thread henceforth, since it's rapidly devolving to "My opinion is objectively correct and I'm going to nitpick, harp, and berate until either everyone who disagrees with me shuts up or (more likely) the ListAdmin kills the discussion." - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2035 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.