From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 12 13:03:32 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14279 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:03:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA13768 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:08:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:08:48 -0500 Message-Id: <200104121808.NAA13768@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2152 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 12 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2152 In this digest: IN> Asmodeus's love (just kidding...superiors and their origins) IN> Re: Aztec Gods Re: IN> heretics Re: IN> heretics Re: IN> Genealogy Re: I'm a dead man. (Was: Re: IN> Uriel) Re: IN> Malakite Bladine IN> Unicorns. Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Re: IN> heretics Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods IN> Blackwings? No Blackwings Here. (Part II) IN> Cherub David? Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Nybbas (Was: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine) Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods Re: IN> Artifact: Calling Card Re: I'm a dead man. (Was: Re: IN> Uriel) Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods IN> Janus and Valefor (was Uriel (was Blandine)) IN> It's alive... Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods Re: IN> It's alive... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:36:40 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Asmodeus's love (just kidding...superiors and their origins) Oh Lilith how I love you.... Sorry but they make such a perfect couple. Now here's my origins theory. Blandine, Jordi, Kobal, and Beleth: Eli Novalis, magog, Christopher, and Malphas: David, why she's so to'd off at him now. Janus, Raphael, Uriel, Michael, Eli, Lucifer, Yves, Baal, Gabriel, Andrephalus, and Oannes: God Saminga: Jordi (was sent to watch carrion creatures) Dominic and Asmodeus: Yves with Asmodeus as Dominic's reliever assistant Marc and Beelzebub and Pikachug: Lucifer....YES LUCIFER...geez... Jean, Belial: Gabriel Vapula: Kronos Kronos: Lucifer and/or the Metatron (personal theory, otherwise lump him with God) Nybbas: Vapula Haagenti: Meserach Meserach and Mariel: Yves Laurnece and Khalid: Uriel Iolanthe: the archivist and Laurence...shhhhhhh Fleurity and Legion: Saminga Fufur: Belial Lilith: Adam's rib...oh hahhaa you didn't actually believe eve existed right? No Lilith just made her up to ditch the lovey dovey wifey image The Demogorgon: Belial Kevin Bacon: Six degrees from every archangel and demon prince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:07:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: Aztec Gods Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:40:22 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: Aztec Gods >>And Huitsilopochtilie and similar gits are most >>definitely nightmares on feet, ain't they? >Not any more than the Old Testament God is one, >ordering the slaughtering of whole communities, >sending all those plagues on Egypt, and getting >Elijah to kill all the priests of Baal. Good point. It doesn't matter to a corpse _why_ a supernatural entity wanted it dead, I suppose. >It's just a matter of perspective. Uriel, of course, >would probably agree with you. However, Huitzi, >Tezcat, Quetz, and the rest weren't the completely >diabolic monsters that they're often imagined to be >by both humanity and the Host. Sure, most angels >would find many Aztec ceremonies and rituals to be >barbaric, but that's what they're _supposed_ to >believe. >After all, they're spirits of the Judeo-Christian >tradition and not the product of Central America. I dunno, Jon. The Aztec ethereal gods were using humans for _lunch_*. Of course, dead is dead - but their human worshippers were also going out and having perpetual wars to ensure a good supply of sacrifices. That sort of thing can't be good for a culture's development. Moe *I've always imagined that these guys were the first ones that Uriel went gunning for (after the unicorns, of course): they'd epitomize everything he couldn't stand about ethereals. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:44:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> heretics Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:07:07 -0700From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: IN> heretics >Does any of you remember when people sent in >archangels as demon princes and vis versa to this >list? I want to have a look at them, but don't really >feel like hunting through the whole list.- -Bevan I hate to say it, but you may have to (or at least take a spin through our various websites): a quick look around 2000 isn't showing any particular peak periods, and I _know_ that we saw a bunch then.* Moe *Heck, _I_ may have to review the whole thing: I just ran across a Song of mine that I unaccountably failed to personally save, and where there's one... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:59:49 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> heretics Okay, but it is in 2000, as opposed to ... say... 1998 or 1999? At the very least, that cuts down my search by two thirds. >From: Maurice Lane >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> heretics >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:44:16 -0700 (PDT) > > >I hate to say it, but you may have to (or at least >take a spin through our various websites): a quick >look around 2000 isn't showing any particular peak >periods, and I _know_ that we saw a bunch then.* > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:05:50 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Genealogy > >Marc: Eli > I'd guess Michael created Marc (check his Mercurian attunement.) >Vapula: Baal? > Kronos. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:00:19 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: I'm a dead man. (Was: Re: IN> Uriel) > However, _no_ Crusader who was part of the squads sent > to exterminate the unicorns has ever recanted his, her > or its actions. > > Some monsters should not be permitted to walk under > the open sky. > > Unicorns > Well, let's just say that the threat hasn't gone away. > Luckily, between the Tsayadim and the saner ethereal > pantheons (all of whom blame unicorns for getting them > into this mess in the first place), the numbers are > kept down. In fact, it's said that the sight of any > unicorn is the only thing that will cause a Tsayadim > to break off the pursuit of an ethereal spirit > (presuming that said spirit hasn't gone after it as > well)... > > > ===== > Liber Licentiae Moeticae: > http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Dude!!! Kick ass, this is going into my files and will probably become part of my game world. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:09:43 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine >From: Sean McCarthy >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >> >Our spies report that on 10:38 AM 4/11/01 -0500, EDG said: >>On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >>>You >> > don't lust after dad. I guess the whole Father/Son thing makes this >>too >> > counter-intuitive, at least to my perceptions. >> >>Forgive my bluntness, but that's an attitude straight out of modern >>culture. :) > >And Nybbas, as we know, doesn't hold at all with modern culture, right? > Actually, you do lust after dad. Isn't that what Freudianism is all about? jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:36:17 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: IN> Unicorns. That was one of the coolest things you've ever come up with, Moe. I'm definately adding it to my game. It changes Uriel's motives a bit, since we all understand escalation. And who wouldn't want to slaughter child-molesting monsters? It makes one wonder how much of a strangle-hold the Seelie court and their unicorn allies had on Scotland, what with the unicorn on the Royal Coat of Arms. And it later ended up on the British Coat of Arms... these rapist beasts, no doubt helped along by select Demon Princes, would have had a reach as far and as strong as the British Empire. The sun would never have set on these corrupting, horned horrors had Uriel not foreseen, in his wisdom, what would transpire. It's no wonder Yves refused to comment when so many were convinced Uriel was in the wrong. The Archangel of Destiny had seen the future, and it was enough. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:12:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Quoting EDG > On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > > I just can't see that. I'm not objecting to it. It just doesn't seem > likely > > on a gut level, the way a Bladine/Laurence pairing does. Vap's his > dad. You > > don't lust after dad. I guess the whole Father/Son thing makes this > too > > counter-intuitive, at least to my perceptions. > > Forgive my bluntness, but that's an attitude straight out of modern > culture. :) Well, The Nybbster is a modern sort of guy. > > Besides, if you're looking for Nybbas' lovers, don't look among the > Princes. > > Think Ethereals. Ethereals desperately hungry for Essence. They'd do > anything > > to get a little help from The Media. Can we say Casting Couch?* > > This I don't buy. Nybbas has better business sense than that, > especially > when he knows Lilith is looking. ;) Lilith probably doesn't mind. Free Love as part of Freedom, anyone? Depending on her tastes (or the right price) she might even join in. > Nybbas is giving these Ethereals exposure in the media, a shot at an > Essence source, and a way to piss Heaven off... and all he's getting > out > of it is -sex-? I'd buy it coming from Rex, maybe, but not the Prince > of > the Media. He's gathering favors and foot soldiers, IMESHO, not > partners. Nah, he gets other things which are more important. The sex is just a fringe benefit. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:44:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine Quoting Elizabeth McCoy > Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine > > At 10:22 AM -0500 4/11/01, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > >Quoting Elizabeth McCoy > [Why guy-guy pairings have had a raw deal in the Media] > > >> >> Ofanite on a leash*> > >> > >> Clearly it's all to do with [Nybbas'] unresolved feelings towards his > former > >> Prince, [...] > > > >I just can't see that. I'm not objecting to it. It just doesn't seem > likely > >on a gut level, the way a Bladine/Laurence pairing does. Vap's his > dad. You > >don't lust after dad. I guess the whole Father/Son thing makes this > too > >counter-intuitive, at least to my perceptions. > > What, you weren't inflicted with the play "Oedipus Rex"? Well, there is that. But that was a son for his mother. I can't think of any work of literature which had a son lusting after his father, which is why a Nybbas bearing a secret yearning for Vapula just doesn't resonate (pardon the pun) with me. I know intellectually that gender is merely a matter of presentation of and self image for celestials, but on a gut level the relationship dynamic between Vapula and Nybbas comes off as more Father and Son rather than Mother and Son. Maybe if Vapulina appeared more often I would be able to get a different impression. >Besides, this > is > all in the "unresolved feelings" area, deeply submerged and denied -- > not > something to act upon, or even think too hard about. But you never > know > what he might think about now and again when all his Servitors are out > of > the room... Why, his form might shift slightly, even... Nybbasina, > anyone? Now an Electra Complex, that might help things seem more natural (or at least naturally unnatural). That's definitely archetypical enough. Now, if I were speculating on which Superiors Nybbas would be interested in, I'd have to say Lilith (but then, half the Princes in Hell seem to want Lilith). Another possibility is Eli. After all, Nybbas already has a keen desire to bring Eli into Hell's fold in order to form a professional partnership. The Media wants to harness Creation. It's just a small step to imagine Nybbas' interest turning into a more...ahem...personal fixation. Come to think of it, didn't Eli go on walkabout around the 1950's? That was when Television first became a major force in society and boosted Nybbas' power into the stratosphere. Perhaps there's more to this timing than just coincidence. Maybe it's all part of a plot by Eli to eventually lure Nybbas out and eventually redeem him. Eli did say Nybbas could be so much more, after all. Nybbasina, Archangel of Communication anyone? Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 05:51:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> heretics - --- Bevan Thomas wrote: > Does any of you remember when people sent in archangels > as demon princes and > vis versa to this list? I want to have a look at them, > but don't really feel > like hunting through the whole list. Try Moe's website. I've also posted some stuff for Fallen Novalis that should hit any time now. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 12:52:37 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine >Maybe if Vapulina appeared more often I would be >able to get a different impression. > Prolly just as well though. I imagine her as a cybered up feminazi with legions of fembots and a political agenda. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 05:57:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > I dunno, Jon. The Aztec ethereal gods were using > humans for _lunch_*. Of course, dead is dead - but > their human worshippers were also going out and having > perpetual wars to ensure a good supply of sacrifices. > That sort of thing can't be good for a culture's > development. Which leaves us with the dilemma of why Uriel didn't work harder going after the Loa. Their worshippers had just as many intertribal wars, and the losers got sold into slavery. Blood sacrifices (_usually_ animal) are still part of the Syncretic religions to this day. And yet, Heaven has an "understanding" with the Loa while the Aztec pantheon is personae non grata. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 06:00:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: IN> Blackwings? No Blackwings Here. (Part II) Now for the boring part - the game mechanics. Dissonance Demons of Thorns are expected to "grow" wherever they're "planted." Relying on others to get their needs met gains them Dissonance (getting one's needs met by exploiting others is fine). Novalis doesn't care if her servants are discontent, but they'd better not complain. In the organization of Thorns, griping causes black marks on one's soul as well as one's record. It's a shame that there's so much in Hell to gripe about. Band Attunements Balseraphim (Restricted) Novalis' Liars can use their Resonance to project visual and olfactory illusions around plants so as to make toxic or otherwise harmful plants appear innocuous. For example, they can create the appearance of a bed of grass over a patch of poison ivy or make a bouquet of roses look as if they've been dethorned. They can also cause drug-sniffing dogs to ignore any amount of plant-based pharmaceuticals. Djinn (Partially Restricted) These nature-oriented Stalkers are difficult to track while moving through foliage or across grass. Any attempt to detect them by sight, hearing or scent suffers a penalty equal to the Djinn's Celestial Forces. They also suffer no visibility penalties for looking at an object of their attunement through foliage. Calabim Plants have been known to split concrete or even solid rock simply by growing through them. Calabim of Thorns can accelerate this process. By spending Essence and making a successful attack roll (Thrown Weapons), they can cause a seed to take root and grow into the body of a target. The resulting growth does one Body Hit per turn for a number of turns equal to the demon's Corporeal Forces times the Essence spent. Removing the plant does additional damage equal to the CD of the attack roll. Habbalah (Restricted) Habbalah of Thorns can use their Resonance to inflict pain. Victims feel as if their flesh is being rent by thorns. This does no damage, but it imposes a distraction penalty on all rolls equal to the Habbalite's Celestial Forces. Lilim (Restricted) The Tempters of Novalis like to seal their deals with a kiss. Once this is done, a successful Will roll makes the victim forget what favor he owes and to whom until the Lilim calls it. Geasa and Geas-hooks held by Lilim of Thorns look like bracelets of flowers when viewed celestially (Geasa have thorns, Geas-hooks do not) and can only be seen after a successful Perception roll. Shedim (Restricted) Shedim in the service of Thorns can possess plants. Full-grown trees are always suitable. With smaller plants, the demon requires an area at least (total Forces) feet in radius. These Corrupters don't have to spur their vegetable Hosts to acts of depravity because their mere presence corrupts; a possessed plant will appear visibly blighted after (demon's Corporeal Forces) days. No roll is required to possess a plant, but those that have been somehow attuned to Heaven cannot be possessed at all. Impudites Novalis' Takers can exude soporific pheromones by spending 1 Essence per person to be effected. Each victim gets a Strength roll to resist; Celestials and Ethereals add their Celestial Forces. Those who fail to resist the pheromones have -2 each to Will and Perception for (Impudite's total Forces) minutes. Servitor Attunements Flowers of Evil Servitors of Novalis can imbue ordinary flowers with a portion of their personal Symphonies. By succeeding on a Will roll and spending 1 Essence, the demon can create a token that encourages selfishness in anyone who holds or wears it (demons are immune, of course). The subject has a penalty of -1 on all rolls to resist selfish behavior. Flowers of Evil are not detectable as Relics. The effect lasts for one day, after which the flower withers and dies. Home Soil The demon is specially attuned to a specific patch of ground, which must be bare soil or covered with plants. If the demon is standing on that spot at the proper time, the daily Essence recharge is doubled. The demon can also use her Home Soil as a Reliquary with a capacity equal to her total Forces x 3. The area of Home Soil is (demon's total Forces) feet in radius. Home Soil cannot be moved save by Novalis or one of her Harvesters. Photosynthesis A demon of Thorns whose Vessel is damaged need not wait for normal healing or disturb the Symphony with a Song of Healing while the Sun shines. The rate of healing varies with how much of the Vessel's skin is exposed to sunlight; normal clothing allows one Body Hit per two hours, a T-shirt and shorts would be good for one Hit per hour, and nude or nearly so is worth two Hits per hour. This Attunement only works in natural sunlight. Otherwise, it is constantly active whenever the demon is wounded. Wheat and Tares A Servitor with this Attunement can see connections between Humans as spiritual vines binding them together. The state of these vines - green and flowering or black and withering - tells the demon which relationships will probably lead the subject to his Destiny and which are most likely to drag him to his Fate. The demon must first be attuned to the subject (via the Djinn Resonance or a Song of Affinity) and then spend 3 Essence to activate Wheat and Tares. Distinctions Knight of Weeds The demon can spend 1 Essence to see what sin or vice the subject is most prone to. He may then add his Celestial Forces to any attempt to encourage the subject to indulge in that activity. This Essence expenditure does not disturb the Symphony. Captain of Roses The simple giving of a gift - a plant, of course - allows the demon to attune to its holder as through a Song of Affinity. The attunement lasts for as long as the plant remains alive and in the subject's possession (but not necessarily on her person) or until the demon makes a successful Will roll to break it (with the same consequences for failure that apply to the Djinn Resonance). Demons attuned to a subject via this Distinction are free to harm the subject, but may not harm the plant. Attunements gained in this manner don't count toward a Djinn's total. Baron of Bitter Roots The holder of this Distinction is totally immune to all plant-based drugs and toxins. He may still enjoy the beneficial or recreational effects thereof if he wishes. This immunity may be conferred on someone else with a touch. The effect lasts for (recipient's Corporeal Forces x 5) minutes but can be revoked at will. The Baron may inflict the deleterious effects of a plant-based chemical that is currently in his system on someone else with a successful Will roll. The victim gets a Strength roll to resist; Celestials and Ethereals add their Corporeal Forces. Harvester This is the only Higher Distinction that Novalis offers. The one additional power that it grants is the ability to change the location of a demon's Home Soil. The demon is saddled with numerous responsibilities, but the increased authority and privilege more than compensate for this nuisance. All Harvesters are powerful Word-bound demons with at least one other Distinction. Many are Songmasters as well. Basic Rites * Spend two hours tending weeds or killing flowers. * Destroy a cultivated field. * Spend a day surrounded by plants grown wild (+3 Essence). Expanded Rites Novalis sometimes offers these Rites as a reward for exceptional service. Complainers need not apply. * Plant weeds in a well-kept garden. * Bury an enemy alive. * Sleep in a swamp for at least four hours (+2 Essence). Relations Novalis has adapted rapidly to life in Hell. Her network of alliances and favors grows every day. Many of Hell's old guard find this disturbing, while others intend to ride the Princess of Thorns' coattails as far as they can go. Allied: Andrealphus, Fleurity, Lilith (Lilith is associated with Novalis) Associated: Beleth, Kronos Neutral: Everyone else except... Hostile: Haagenti (Baal is hostile toward Novalis), and... Enemy: Saminga Chance of Invocation: 3 Invocation Modifiers +1: A dead flower/potted plant +2: Standing in a field overgrown with weeds +3: A carnivorous plant +4: A blood-soaked thorn +5: A bag of thorns, picked from the plant by hand +6: The blood of a helpless innocent As always, comments appreciated. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:01:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Cherub David? All this talk of Archangels turning Malakite has got me thinking. What if we asked the reverse of this? So I pose this question to the list: What would David be like if he never went Malakite? Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:49:57 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine On Thu, 12 Apr 2001, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > Forgive my bluntness, but that's an attitude straight out of modern > > culture. :) > > Well, The Nybbster is a modern sort of guy. I think you might misunderstand. I'm not trying to make the point that modern culture affects Nybbas (that's sort of a "well, duh" point), but rather that Nybbas affects modern culture. What's to say that our current views on incest aren't a direct result of his interference, and that his interference isn't a direct result of his failed attempts with Vapula? > Lilith probably doesn't mind. Free Love as part of Freedom, anyone? > Depending on her tastes (or the right price) she might even join in. As below, there has to be a LOT more than just sex involved to get Lilith's attention in this sort of matter, IMESHO. > Nah, he gets other things which are more important. The sex is just a fringe > benefit. *shrug* Okay. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:07:35 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine > > Lilith probably doesn't mind. Free Love as part of Freedom, anyone? > > Doesn't mind being undercut as a middleman (middlewoman?) when prospective clients get in touch with each other directly? I bet she does mind. Think of all those geases she isn't getting if Nybbas recruits directly ... jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:46:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Nybbas (Was: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine) - --- in_Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:38:15 -0500 (CDT) From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Malakite Bladine >Nybbas is giving these Ethereals exposure in the >media, a shot at an Essence source, and a way to piss >Heaven off... and all he's getting out of it is - -sex->? Well, all of those things please him, too - and, more importantly, serve his Word. It also reinforces his image as the Man (pardon the pun), the Boss, the Who You Have to Sleep With to Get Into This Picture. Of course, none of this will ever affect his judgement or plans one iota, unless it amuses him to do so, but it's still a rush to the ego: Nybbas gets to be irresistable because ... he's Nybbas, baby. If you've got it, flaunt it. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:31:21 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods Strictly speaking, those were not Vodoun worshipers who got sold into slavery. It was only when the slaves came to the Caribean that the Vodoun religion developed. They never sacrifice humans. And animal sacrifices were part of Judaism originally. That's the big significance of Christ. According to the Christians, his sacrifice removed any need for blood sacrifice. Furthermore, as Vodoun is monotheistic and one of the religions that is it's roots is Roman Catholicism, it is probably the pagan religion which Uriel had the least problem with. >From: Michael Walton >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods >Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 05:57:01 -0700 (PDT) > > > Which leaves us with the dilemma of why Uriel didn't work >harder going after the Loa. Their worshippers had just as >many intertribal wars, and the losers got sold into >slavery. Blood sacrifices (_usually_ animal) are still >part of the Syncretic religions to this day. And yet, >Heaven has an "understanding" with the Loa while the Aztec >pantheon is personae non grata. > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:16:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods - --- Bevan Thomas wrote: > Strictly speaking, those were not Vodoun worshipers who > got sold into > slavery. It was only when the slaves came to the Caribean > that the Vodoun religion developed. True. But in IN terms, the two groups worshipped the same entities. > They never sacrifice humans. There are no _reliable_ reports of it, anyway. Though there are references in the islands to "slaying the two-headed goat" or something similar which have been interpretted as references to human sacrifice. Nobody's been able to prove it, of course. > And animal sacrifices were part of Judaism > originally. No, Judaism continued that practice from Middle Eastern religions that are even older. You're dead on about the signifigance of Christ, though. > Furthermore, as Vodoun is monotheistic and one of the > religions that is it's > roots is Roman Catholicism, it is probably the pagan > religion which Uriel had the least problem with. Voudoun is not technically monotheistic, it's animistic. The belief system acknowledges a supreme creator (many African religions do) but also supports the belief of many spirits who are considered/referred to as lesser gods. It's true that Catholicism is part of Voudoun's roots, but the African components are clearly dominant. Calling Voudoun, Santeria and the other Syncretic faiths divine religions is a bit of a stretch -- not impossible, but enough to make the average angel uncomfortable. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:19:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Artifact: Calling Card - --- Amanda Kilgore wrote: > Artifact: The Calling Card Insta-Invocation, eh? It works as a plot device, but I sure wouldn't want PC's to have that capability all the time. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:25:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: I'm a dead man. (Was: Re: IN> Uriel) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Unicorns Moe, I am in awe. This is an incredible piece even by the astronomical standards that I apply to your work. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:29:36 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods > > > No, Judaism continued that practice from Middle Eastern >religions that are even older. You're dead on about the >signifigance of Christ, though. I didn't mean that Judaism originated animal sacrifice, but merely that they practiced it. And original Judaism was sanctioned by Heaven > > Voudoun is not technically monotheistic, it's animistic. >The belief system acknowledges a supreme creator (many >African religions do) but also supports the belief of many >spirits who are considered/referred to as lesser gods. The Loah are considered the equivalent of saints and angels in the sources that I've read. That would mean that it is no less monotheisitc then Roman Catholicism (or the In Nomine world actually). >It's true that Catholicism is part of Voudoun's roots, but >the African components are clearly dominant. Calling >Voudoun, Santeria and the other Syncretic faiths divine >religions is a bit of a stretch -- not impossible, but >enough to make the average angel uncomfortable. > I'm not calling them divine. They produce ethereals after all. But they are close enough to divine religions to be the least objectional of the non-divine religions. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:30:58 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: IN> Janus and Valefor (was Uriel (was Blandine)) Exit the Lonewolf wrote: <> I believe this is my cue. While most of the list may believe that Janus and Valefor are the same, I think if you look at the facts, you may come to believe otherwise. As the line moves beyond the main rulebook*, Valefor and Janus start diverging. It was the Final Trumpet that did it for me, with Janus wanting Armageddon and Valefor opposing it. (The part where all the Demon Princes vote for Armageddon still makes _no_ sense to me.) IMO, I think that Valefor just stole Janus' attunments. It amused him, and it's what a thief (or, more importantly, THE thief) would do. Plus, I've never seen Valefor as being particularly creative, so this would make sense as well. Of course, since this isn't CDaU, it may very well be resolved in a future product at which point we'll find out. Sam *-I'm shaky on the timeline of releases, but I think the first few products still were playing up the similarity between the two before stopping (or at least, not being as blatant about it). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:44:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> It's alive... Hmm. Charlemagne's comment about Mentats has sparked a question in my head: just what _would_ Jean think about genetically engineering humans for various 'improvements'? I could see it argued either way, actually. On the one hand, Jean doesn't have a very good opinion of the average human's reasoning abilities (a point that we'd have to concede, I'm afraid: the average human _isn't_ as smart as the average angel). His work would go :much: more smoothly if mortals got brighter or more self-controlled. Nothing too extreme, of course, but even a mild boost across the gene lines would pay dividends later on. Besides, better that Heaven (read: Jean) has a lock on genetic manipulation than, say, Vapula. On the other hand... well, it's the old question of how to put the genie back into the bottle (pardon that double, or even triple, pun there). Can Revelations and Development control the information flow sufficiently well that Vapula never has the opportunity to drool? Also, now that he thinks of it, Jean's getting all the ethical human scientific researchers that he can handle anyway: they go into the Halls of Progress, transcend their corporeal limitations, but still retain the spark of sideways thinking that makes them useful in the first place. In short, he's getting creativity in a controlled environment - and we all know how scientists think about controls. Anyway, food for thought. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:55:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Aztec Gods - --- Bevan Thomas wrote: > The Loah are considered the equivalent of saints and > angels in the sources > that I've read. That would mean that it is no less > monotheisitc then Roman Catholicism (or the In Nomine > world actually). _Equivalent_ to saints and angels is not the same thing as saints and angels -- separate but equal does apply in this case. We should be careful of trying to shoehorn a decidely non-Western belief system into the categories that Western theologians are comfortable with. As for being palatable to Heaven, the Loa's main qualification is their refusal to ally with Hell. The Hindu pantheon is even closer to the divine than the Syncretic religions. Except for Kali, none of those gods promoted blood sacrifice much. The Hindu gods are also less accepting of Sorcery than the Loa, who actively encourage it in their houngans and mambos. Those things plus the ineradicability of Hinduism and Buddhism in the part of the world where they originated would put that pantheon at the top of Heaven's "good list" of Ethereals. With the Loa a close second, I grant. Though an argument could be made for the spirits of the Dreamtime being Heaven's favorite Ethereals -- but it's hard to hate somebody whom you know can't hurt you and is on the way out, so I wouldn't count them. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:00:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> It's alive... - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > I could see it argued either way, actually. On the > one hand, Jean doesn't have a very good opinion of the > average human's reasoning abilities (a point that we'd > have to concede, I'm afraid: the average human _isn't_ > as smart as the average angel). His work would go > :much: more smoothly if mortals got brighter or more > self-controlled. But minor early success might make further success harder later on. Check out this month's Discover; there's an article in it (in the "R&D" section) about a theory that Humans have lost genetic flexibility as we increased in both intelligence and lifespan. The conclusion in a nutshell is that getting smarter and living long enough to do something with that brainpower came at the cost of a slower mutation rate, which slows the rate of evolution. OTOH, a Human race that was smarter and didn't change significantly over time might be to Jean's liking. If he could keep from extinguishing the kind of "sideways thinking" that he finds so useful. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2152 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.