From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 17 11:09:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27217 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:09:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA24557 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:15:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:15:30 -0500 Message-Id: <200104171615.LAA24557@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2160 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 17 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2160 In this digest: Re: IN> The Order of pascifists Re: IN> Re: old superiors Re: IN> Fwd: some questions need answered please Re: Open Tethers... (was Re: IN> April 9, 2001 (ML)) Re: IN> April 15, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> The Fall of Magog Re: IN> Amusing novel Re: IN> The once and future king IN> [ADMIN] CHECK YOUR SETTINGS! Re: IN> New Discord Re: IN> Concrete Cuddlys Re: IN> Bears of Comfort Re: IN> Fwd: some questions need answered please EDITED: Re: IN> Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council (Was: Angelic orders) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2158 Re: IN> The Demon of Elvis Re: IN> The Order of pascifists Re: IN> New Discord IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Re: IN> The Order of pascifists Re: IN> Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council (Was: Angelic orders) Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Re: IN> Michael, Prince of Betrayal Re: IN> The Order of pascifists IN> Minor game vignette... Re: IN> Artifact: Calling Card IN> The unfortunate Malakite Re: IN> Minor game vignette... Re: IN> Minor game vignette... Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:23:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Order of pascifists - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > Plus, he's a Good Christian. The way I see it, he > probably doesn't like > violating his own religion's strictures about violence > anymore then the > Pacifists do, but what can he do about it? It's not like > Baal's boys are willing to just negociate peacefully. Plus, there are limits to strictures against violence. I believe in turning the other cheek... but I ain't got but two cheeks. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:20:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: old superiors At 2:29 PM -0400 4/13/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >> http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/choirs/pre.html lize that he was originally the Prince of Chaos. > >And the old pictures of the Superiors are neat. Khalid's original pic is >really out there, as is Michael's. David is similar but different, Baal's >this huge dragon, and the picture of Aballam would work great for Fleurity >in his Pimp mode. It got used for Fleurity in _Night Music_, if I recollect correctly. O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:50:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: some questions need answered please At 11:03 PM -0700 4/13/01, Kish wrote: >>>From: Bill Perman >>> >>>does In Nomine 2nd ed contain any new art, as well as any changes >>>outside errata from first edition? > >No, and yes. No new art, several lovely changes. There's changes which haven't made it to errata? Oh dear. I need to fix that... Can you send? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:06:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Open Tethers... (was Re: IN> April 9, 2001 (ML)) At 6:23 PM -0500 4/14/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >How much easier could things be if Seneschals just enacted a "freedom of the >[...] but instead trusted to God that their acts of charity would >be returned unto them by the Symphony in all good time and the fullness of >events? All well and good if you're writing fiction, especially from the New Testement slant ( see the GMG ), but we're talking player characters here. Player characters sometimes have shakey grasps on the concept of repayment. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:10:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> April 15, 2001 (ML) At 8:13 PM -0700 4/14/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >OK. >Umm. >Err. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:13:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Fall of Magog At 10:02 PM -0700 4/14/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >> From: "Charles Phipps" >> Subject: IN> The Fall of Magog >> grace and I need to clear some ideas with you all. >> >> 1:) Do angels suffer dissonance for "evil" actions? > >"Evil"? Not in canon. Violations of their Word or >Choir nature (or deliberate perversion of the latter)? > Yes. The two don't always match up. :) [...] On a quick read-through, my only answers are: "What Moe Said." - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:16:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Amusing novel At 11:39 PM +0100 4/15/01, Genevieve Cogman wrote: >Has anyone else out there read _The Second Summoning_ by Tanya Huff (aka The >Keeper's Chronicles #2)? Mememememememe! I also noted that it is, in a way, a revisiting of her earlier, more _serious_ book, _Gate of Darkness, Circle of Light_ (referenced in the GIN bibli)... Which made it all the more funny to me. [...] >behaviour on Earth. It's not fair, really it isn't . . . ) There's also a >character who's near as dammit Eli himself, and who I am borrowing a few >notes from for future gaming. Heh. Oh? Who did _you_ think of as the Eli one? (I hadn't rea....oh. Him. Nevermind. Of _course_ he's an angel.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:18:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The once and future king At 6:47 AM -0700 4/16/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >I don't normally comment on grammatical stuff, but I >really do believe that, in canon, it's Elv_ii_. Beth, >can we get a ruling on this? ;) I dunno. Has it appeared in any of the books? I can't seem to find it in any of the indexes. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:29:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] CHECK YOUR SETTINGS! There's been a lot of HTML appearing in posts on the list, folks. Everyone needs to check their settings to make sure that you are NOT sending HTML to the list. HTML is bad. Forbidden. It's in the listrules. You all know better. A quick hint: if you set your _default_ prefs for _all_ your email to non-HTML, then accidentally sending HTML becomes a much rarer event. - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:12:33 -0400 From: Amanda Kilgore Subject: Re: IN> New Discord > ooh! Another idea! At level 4 and higher, the one > > afflicted must > > break into song for engaging in combat. The Symphony > > could even provide the background music. > > Oh, _thanks,_ Cameron. Now I can't get the image of a > Nybbite with Soundtrack and Wuh-huh/6 out of my head. And now you all get a glimpse of what it's like living with Cameron. Welcome to my personal Hell. *grin* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:37:20 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Concrete Cuddlys Michael Walton wrote: > You've... got... to... be... kidding... > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > Just imagine the demon when he gets out of Trauma. "Hey what happened to you?" "Shut up!" "But that bruise looks like-" "I said SHUT UP!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:44:55 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Bears of Comfort > Very similar to the Dream Friend Artifact in the LR. Really? Well, I don't own the book myself. I just remembered the story about the police department that started bringing along bears and giving them to children and took it just that little bit farther. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:57:33 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: some questions need answered please From: "Elizabeth McCoy" At 11:03 PM -0700 4/13/01, Kish wrote: >>>From: Bill Perman >>> >>>does In Nomine 2nd ed contain any new art, as well as any changes >>>outside errata from first edition? > >No, and yes. No new art, several lovely changes. <>> They're not errata-ish things. :-) I was thinking of the more detailed descriptions of Haagenti and Nybbas and (slightly) Dominic, the Restricted notes--oh, and the way Dominic's Kyriotate attunement is described. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:08:31 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: EDITED: Re: IN> Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council (Was: Angelic orders) Here it is again, HTML taken out. Enjoy. - -----Original Message----- From: Perry Lloyd To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, April 16, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Re: IN> Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council (Was: Angelic orders) >I'm surprised to see that Dominic has more votes than Laurence >on the Offensive Council. In fact, I'm a little surprised to >see him on th Offensive Counsil at all; he's not much concerned >with prosecuting the War. He's Internal Security; it's angels >he hauls up for judgement, not demons. > >Earl It's out of the original game. I thought kinda odd too, but, I figure that the Champion of the Catholic Church probably /would/ be on the Offensive Council. Uh, in INSMV, there's a note saying that Dominic will use his votes to break ties (as the other four Archangel's votes /can/ tie). Doesn't say that's the only thing he does with his votes, though. Also, I don't see Dominic as having interest in merely internal affairs. I see him as being active in guiding the Catholic Church, as well as being active in working with Laurence to locate Evil in the world and bring it to an end, particularly through the police. Almost always in my game the police of the city are Judgement supported, typically with at least an angel of judgement present, if not with a few soldiers for support. Also, Dominic is very powerful in my game, (perhaps with good reason, as it's said that he has the /best/ Judgement in Heaven :) and his opinion of the situation has a significant impact on the PC's Archangel's.>> On the other hand, SG's IN is not INS/MV, so what happens in one game might not apply in the other. Politics are definetly part of this, so we have to deduce how IN's Seraphim Council operates through analysis of how the American Game is build, not just overt Translation of the French Game. If we apply the concept that Heaven is a Democracy (Which works, considering Heaven is all about considering the needs of the community over your own), then the Factions of Heaven are their Political Parties, and the Archangels are their Political Inspirations. Since we've never had indications that Heaven is build on the triple-branched (Executive/Legislative/Judiciary) form of Democracy, we'll assume it's Parliamentary based, with seats accorded primarily to Trisagonist Seraphim (The ones most in touch with the Divine), with exceptions most likely made for Archangels and important word-bounds of other words. If we still assume about 33 Seraphim sitting at the Council, we now have to determine how they're given their positions. For simplicity's sake, let's assume that every Word organisation nominates and elects members of it's own Word for the Council, and that final entry into the Council requires approval by a Majority vote of the Council itself. Qualities looked for in Council members would include a willingness to look beyond you Superior's Word and favor decisions beneficial to all of Heaven, experience in dealing with political decisions and cross-word interaction on a daily basis, and debating skill. The Archangels themselves most likely don't participate on the Seraphim Council for various reasons: One, only three are actual Seraphim (Dominic, Michael and Litheroy*). Two, Their nature as Nigh Omniscient embodiement of their Words makes it hard for them to think "Outside the Box", as it were. So they leave the day-to-day political maneuvering of Heaven to their Seraphic representatives, only being called in on major Decisions in the War (such as the "Fall of the Malakite" incident. As such, they act as a make-shift Executive Branch, as a concensus of Archangels might be able to override a Council decision. *(Besides, I figure Dominic feels it's more Just for him to stay out of the Politics of Heaven to make sure everyone plays by the rules, Litheroy's too busy uncovering stuff to bother with the Council, and since Michael debates like he fights, he probably thinks it wouldn't be fair for everyone if he just took over the Council.) When sitting on the Council, a Seraphim is expected to put aside the concerns of normal Servitor's duties, and focus on solving problems facing all of Heaven, by casting votes to reach a consensus decision. Of course, one's decision making is affected by one's experience in the Service of a Word: Seraphim of War always respond to a Demonic build-up in an area by voting to send in Malakim, while Most Holy of Flowers are more likely to vote for peacefully undermining the Demon's Infernal influence in the area, while building up Heavenly Influence. This is why debating and arguing the points are an important part of Council decisions: swing votes and undecided voters are vital in getting a decision finalized. The Seraphim Council meets every few days (so as to let the Windies get a change of venue every three days), to look over situations of International Importance on Earth, resolving cross-words friction in compromises, to make decisions in progression of the War, to approve new Tethers and elect new Wordbound, and to make decisions in crisis situations. At least, that's how I see the Seraphim Council. Your mileage may vary. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:55:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2158 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:00:01 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry >Subject: Re: IN> New Discord > ooh! Another idea! At level 4 and higher, the >one afflicted must break into song for engaging in >combat. The Symphony could even provide the >background music. Oh, that's going in. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:59:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Elvis Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:26:02 -0400From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Demon of Elvis >With a really good roll, a handsome vessel, and his >herethro unknown great singing ability...yes Nybbas >became... >Buddy Holly. (Scowls) Bah. (/Scowls) ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:00:49 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The Order of pascifists - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Phipps" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: IN> The Order of pascifists [snip] > "Effectively since the prophets of God promote nonviolence milord Errrr... and where exactly was that written down? [snip] > >"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth! I came not to bring > >peace, but the sword." -- Matthew 10:34 > > and point out the sword Peter used was obviously incorrectly used in the > garden. You just bring the swords to be bashed into plowsheers. *ahem* That directly contradicts the flat statement "I came not to bring peace...". > To which the Malakim usually bash them on the back of the heads. Let's just say that if even the Archangel of Flowers, for all intents and purposes the Symphony's walking embodiment of Being Nice To People, can acknowledge that at least *once* in the history of the universe it was/will be necessary to whack someone with a club, I have trouble believing that God truly said flat-out that total 100% no-exceptions pacifism was the way to go. After all, if these guys are right, then 99.9999999% of the Host is wrong. Last time that even came anywhere *vaguely* close to happening, Archangels (well, one at least) were being yanked bodily up Jacob's Ladder. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:02:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> New Discord Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Discord - - --- Maurice Lane wrote: >> Heart on His Sleeve (Ethereal) > >Uh huh, read Snow Crash, have we? 0;> (mock-defensive) So what if I did? Just be glad that I didn't think of some way to incorporate the nuke. ;) (/mock-defensive) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:39:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Fair warning: this will make absolutely no sense unless you are of an age, culture and inclination to have watched certain badly-animated American television series about toy action figures. I'm sorry about that, but whaddya going to do? :) (pause) I've just reread what I wrote below. I am _really_ sorry. ;) Morgan Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Because Knowing is Half the Battle "VAP'LA!" Sparky didn't know how it could have happened. He was _sure_ that Vapula's animation connection had been soul-killed. He was _there_ when it happened, for the love of Anybody Listening: he even had first cut. Vapula must have had a backup, apparently. Anyway, it's bad. Very, very bad - Vapula, typically enthralled, has gotten a little weird. Well, weirder - - he refuses to go anywhere without that bizarre metal face mask now. That wasn't be _quite_ so bad. The demands that all of his Servitors give up their regular clothing for new uniforms was more annoying, but Sparky could deal (_he_ made sure that he'd look good in the new uniforms, so the rest of Gehenna could go hang). Unfortunately, Vapula then did the unthinkable. He got Saminga involved into this madness. Sparky was shocked, shocked, _shocked_ - not only did Vapula try to make friends with the Prince of Death, but he _succeeded_. Saminga must have been incredibly bored, or lonely, or just hypnotized by the pretty colors on the bootleg tape... because he jumped into this madness with both feet, and is now running around with some funky blue hood with eyeslits and _hissing_ all the time. The crazy thing was, usually Saminga's tendency towards megalomania drives the Prince of Technology up the wall: now, the more that Saminga chews the scenery, the happier Vapula is. For that matter, what in HELL is with Lilith these days? She's encouraging the both of them in this strange scene - and, unless Sparky's eyes are deceiving him (he's ready to unambigiously *pray* by now that this is all just a Balseraphic self-delusion gone horribly wrong, by the way), she's /coming on to Vapula/. That is just wrong, wrong, WRONG. Sparky could deal with this, though. He could deal with the odd uniforms, the fact that Vapula keeps calling him "Dr. Braintwister" or something, and the fact that three powerful Princes seem to have created a consensual hallucination without heeding how the rest of Hell would react to this. Sparky could even deal with the fact that, due to Princely Fiat, all Servitors of Cob... Technology have to fix the default color of their Celestial Songs of Light to red. There have been odder periods in Technological history. What's _scaring_ him is the way that Vapula's doing his new projects. Everything - _everything_ that Des... Vapula does now seems to need twenty pounds of some insanely difficult mineral or crystal, only found in the most inaccessable parts of the corporeal plane. Fine (well, not 'fine', but not disasterous), but then his Prince actually _calls_ _up_ Michael, Laurence and/or Jean, cackles at them, tells them where he's going and why, then *DARES* them to stop him. Of course, they show up: of course, there's a running gun battle, and of course none of these plans of Vapula's ever come to fruition. A lot of stuff gets blown up, though: the casualty rate may be nil, but the property damage goes through the roof. And that was just the paramilitary stuff. Lately, Vapula's been breaking out those weird vessels. Goofy mechanical vessels that can turn into other goofy mechanical devices, regardless of practicality. Sure, turning into a plane makes a certain amount of sense, but a twenty foot boom box? What's the *point?* But that's not the worst bit. The worst bit is that Sparky is starting to think that this condition is infectious. He's already noted a tendency for him to break out a heavy pseudo-Eastern European accent, which worries him. However, when Vapula normally goes looney like this, eventually reality (in the form of the Host) whaps him on the nose and forces him back to what could pass for rationality in a bad light. However, Sparky's noticed that, lately, all of the Celestial Songs of Light used by the _angels_ have been blue-colored. The Archangels have been doing odd things, too: Michael's wearing a beret, Laurence got a crew cut (plus a die job) and Gabriel seems to have abandoned her normal robes and flaming sword for a skintight outfit and a crossbow. Help. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:46:04 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" From: "Maurice Lane" > > I am _really_ sorry. As well you should be. I may never get the image of the archangel David dressed up as Sgt. Slaughter out of my mind again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:50:11 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" [snip] > I've just reread what I wrote below. > > I am _really_ sorry. Not. Sorry. Enough. *g* [snip] > Michael's wearing a beret, Laurence got a > crew cut (plus a die job) and Gabriel seems to have > abandoned her normal robes and flaming sword for a > skintight outfit and a crossbow. > > Help. I'm not giving you a single bit of help until you tell me which ones Snake-Eyes and Storm Shadow are supposed to be. And remember, only the comic books were the One True GI Joe. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:56:19 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> The Order of pascifists >> Plus, he's a Good Christian. The way I see it, he probably doesn't like >> violating his own religion's strictures about violence anymore then the >> Pacifists do, but what can he do about it? It's not like >> Baal's boys are willing to just negociate peacefully. > > Plus, there are limits to strictures against violence. I >believe in turning the other cheek... but I ain't got but >two cheeks. And the problem with this one is that as described, it crosses what I consider the line between moral pacifism and immoral pacifism. To whit, while it may be alright to not use violence to resist evil, you must at least resist it in SOME form if you are moral. You noted some of them would just stand there rather than even temporarily harm someone machine-gunning kids in front of them; even Novalis would do SOMETHING, stop up the gun or put Song of Shields over the kids or similar acts, no matter how "harmful" that might be to the shooter. If they truly advocate not interfering with demonic activities the way described, they are effectively assisting the demons in their mission. More importantly from the angelic perspective, they are putting their beliefs ahead of their duties this way with such a blanket refusal to use violence (even Novalis reluctantly expects you will resort to violence against demons if it is truly needed (her Dissonance conditions are flexible on that point for a reason)). Whether or not angels truly have free will, they are made to obey the commands of the Superiors put lawfully above them by God and the Host, and even the easiest-going Superior by God DEMANDS obedience from their Servitors. Every being in Heaven remembers a certain Archangel of Light who declared "I will not serve", and none of them would ever put up with even the slightest example of an angel following in those footsteps. Any angel who put their desire for pacifism as high as these fellows could expect Outcasting at best (let them see how they like it if nobody helps them out when they're in trouble). Destruction is quite likely, especially if they did actually move from words to actually sitting by while a demonic atrocity occured (heck, even Novalis might pull the plug if it was truly sickening). - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:37:38 -0700 From: edenesque@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Inner Workings of the Seraphim Council (Was: Angelic orders) SFAIK, the purpose of the Councils Three is be to organize the Archangels into smaller groups, by interest, for easier discussion of the issues. Also, individual councils of the Councils Three might take a vote, as a council, about whether or not to present an issue to Seraphim Council as a whole or to keep the issue within the council (and I'm not even sure this idea's thematically appropriate).<<< I may be off here, but I thought that the Archangels representing certain interests are more than three, broken down like so: Militant: Michael, David, Laurence, Gabriel, Khalid, Janus Peaceful: Novalis, Blandine, Christopher, Yves, Eli, Zadkiel Neutral/Swing: Dominic, Jean, Marc, Litheroy, Jordi. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:03:02 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:46 PM Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" > From: "Maurice Lane" > > > > I am _really_ sorry. > > As well you should be. > > I may never get the image of the archangel David dressed up as Sgt. > Slaughter out of my mind again. Oh, come on. Sgt. Slaughter was sooooooo into "Hitting first". - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:35:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" At 11:50 PM -0500 4/16/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > > >I'm not giving you a single bit of help until you tell me which ones >Snake-Eyes and Storm Shadow are supposed to be. And remember, only the >comic books were the One True GI Joe. Blandine and Beleth. What, you thought Blandine was Lady J? (Now, I prepare for a death of my own. By the way, why is the subject line a riff on the TransFormers theme song instead of "A Real American Hero?" A Real Celestial Hero... Archangel Michael is the-e-ere....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:42:06 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" Our spies report that on 01:35 AM 4/17/01 -0400, Whistling in the Dark said: >(Now, I prepare for a death of my own. By the way, why is the subject line >a riff on the TransFormers theme song instead of "A Real American Hero?" A >Real Celestial Hero... Archangel Michael is the-e-ere....) ... "It's Archangel Michael against Baal and Lucifer, fighting to save the day..." Oh dear. He never gives up. He's always there. Fighting for Freedom ov--- Uh oh. I'm leaving now. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:31:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Michael, Prince of Betrayal On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Michael Walton wrote: > I had an idea a while back that I never did anything with > -- Anti-Nomine. The basic premise was to take all of the > Superiors and switch sides. Thus, all the AA's would > become DP's and vice versa. I didn't do it because, quite > frankly, it's too big a project for one guy to take on > without getting paid. However, many hands make light the > work. Anybody up for another contest? We've seen Michael > and Novalis, what else can we come up with? http://www.godmachine.org/tattered/ Pretty damn close, actually. :) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "People love to be told what to do. They love not doing what they've been told even more. They love it the most when they are made to do it anyway." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:32:11 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Order of pascifists Charles Glasgow wrote: > *ahem* > > That directly contradicts the flat statement "I came not to bring peace...". Theologians have argued that one for centuries. It's pretty clear Jesus promoted peace, and the "sword" he brought was probably meant figuratively. OTOH, he did lay at the moneylenders in the temple with a whip. > After all, if these guys are right, then 99.9999999% of the Host is wrong. That hasn't stopped Jordi from maintaining his position.... (Also, many of Novalis' Servitors, at least, would probably agree with them, and I suspect they'd make up more than 0.00000001% of the Host.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:39:31 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Minor game vignette... Otherwise known as "How to bail out a player when you're feeling particularly merciful..." Last night's GURPS: IN solo session (breaking in a new player with a sample game)... his Malakite of Judgement, with one Soldier of God as backup, was going up against Nadzoreth, Renegade Balseraph of Death (from Liber Servitorum), and had just made a wee bit of an error... i.e., forgetting that when one does not know the full abilities of one's demonic opponent, one is best advised to fight with one's back to the wall lest one get the Celestial Song of Motion up one's hiney. (Actually, error #2 was in not waiting for that van-load of Malakim he'd called for backup to get there first. After all, he was only supposed to *find* the target, not take it head-on. But she saw him sneaking around, so...) So, given that his corporeal form isn't particularly impressive in the stats (he was a resonance-Skills-and-Celestial-Combat machine, not a brawler, although he's a fiar pistol shot), Naddy and the .44 magnum she was holding [1], plus the fact that she'd teleported straight in *behind* him, convinced him that he'd better put the gun down. Then she started resonating him, despite his having a Will score two points higher than hers. Resonance #1 worked... he was convinced that resistance was futile and he should put the gun down However, on their *next* contest of Wills... he chucks a 6-6-6! Oh, *great*. Infernal Intervention. So he'll believe *anything* she says. *NOW* what do I do? I mean, the Soldier of God (cop, with SWAT vest and shotgun) had been busy watching the front door of her hideout while he had the side door... so she's close enough to see what's happening but far enough away not to get resonated... but how am I supposed to, without making it a blatant GM gimme, plausibly have her snap him out of an Infernal Intervention-augmented Balseraphic resonance? (Incidentally, the mission was to take Nadzoreth *alive* -- hence the truckload of bruisers on call -- so simply blowing her head off with the 12-gauge was not an option. As to why Nadzoreth didn't see our brave Soldier coming... hey, she was *busy*.) What would you have done? I mean, when it's visibly obvious that the Balseraph just finished putting the angel on the hook and could get him to strip naked and sing "Yankee Doodle" had she had the notion? Me, I had the Soldier of God shoot the *player*. Hey, he'd just finished giving her the lecture on the way over about how it was only a Vessel and now Malakim don't even worry about the Trauma thing... and the Light of Heaven burns away all lies, so when he wakes up back home his head will be clear of the Balseraph mindjob. Even *if* it was an Infernal Intervention. Comments? Was I too easy on him? Or too hard? (BTW -- given that he had called for back-up and given a location *before* going in, Nadzoreth was subdued by the time he could finish checking in, get a new Vessel, and get back down there. So at least that ended well. However, they did have to explain the gunshot wound to the cop... she lived, fortunately.) [1] Remember, in the GURPS combat system, even a pretty good vessel can get blown away by one good shot from mortal weapons. You don't *need* the Holy Pistol in this game -- earlier in tonight's play session, our heroic Malakite popped a Calabite of Drugs with one shot from a S&W .40 caliber, called shot to the brain at close range. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2001 15:46:35 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Artifact: Calling Card On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:19 Michael Walton wrote: >--- Amanda Kilgore wrote: >> Artifact: The Calling Card > Insta-Invocation, eh? It works as a plot device, but I >sure wouldn't want PC's to have that capability all the time. agreed, but since as written, it doesn't have this problem (burn or rip up the card to use equals "one time use" in my book), why mention that? i rather like it :) -=|horsefly|=- Ubi caritas est vera, est vera Deus ibi est, Deus ibi est. --Bob Hurd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:51:23 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> The unfortunate Malakite No, I think that's a perfect solution. Malakim are supposed to go through vessels, anyway. I seem to remember a similar thing happening in a piece of fiction (written, I believe, by Genevieve Cogman), where a Malakite under ethereal influence was threatening his companions and the Elohite of War shot him. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:51:56 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Minor game vignette... > >Me, I had the Soldier of God shoot the *player*. You mean the character, I hope ;) > >Comments? Was I too easy on him? Or too hard? I'd normally make an infernal intervention be much more favourable to the demon than that -- but that can be hard to do on the fly, especially if it was an introductory session, and losing a favoured vessel is a reasonably harsh intro :) I'd definitely make sure that demon somehow got away after the PC was shot, perhaps to become a personal nemesis though. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:54:01 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Minor game vignette... >Me, I had the Soldier of God shoot the *player*. I'm reminded of Keanu's line from Speed: "Shoot the hostage; take it out of the equation." ;) Not only is the the kind of thing I would have done, I was already thinking it as a possible reply before you mentioned it yourself. >Comments? Was I too easy on him? Or too hard? For a first time player, I'd say you were about right. He lost the Vessel, could have gotten his partner killed, and were it not for the fact that he called for backup the mission would have been a failure. That's an appropriate smackdown for a 666, and you don't want to hose a player *too* badly during his first game. - -- Casca _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:06:35 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> "Archan-gels bat-tle to de-stroy the evil forces of ... the De-mon Prin-ces" >From: Whistling in the Dark >>At 11:50 PM -0500 4/16/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >> >> >>I'm not giving you a single bit of help until you tell me which ones >>Snake-Eyes and Storm Shadow are supposed to be. And remember, only the >>comic books were the One True GI Joe. > >Blandine and Beleth. I would have said Janus and Valefor. >What, you thought Blandine was Lady J? Considering that Lady Jaye had a classical education at Bryn Mawr, *I* think it makes more sense, yeah. Of course, then we'd have to switch Laurence from Duke to Flint, which makes more sense, actually, as Flint was a Warrant *Officer* and outranked Duke, who was the crusty career Master Sergeant. What I want to know is, who'd be Serpentor? - -- Casca, who collected every single GI Joe comic, toy, and file card as a kid. And still has them all, in storage. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2160 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.