From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Apr 19 02:48:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA07353 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:48:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id CAA05548 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:55:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:55:39 -0500 Message-Id: <200104190755.CAA05548@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2167 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, April 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2167 In this digest: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." IN> Ummm...Ms. Line Editor? Re: IN> Khalid, to Elo or not... (Re: With Sincerest Apologies) Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> Ummm...Ms. Line Editor? Re: IN> The Corporation of G.O.D Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Re: Soul-killing Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." IN> G.I. Angel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:57:11 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." Back from the library, and I see that some things apparently still need explaining... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Keith" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:40 PM Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." > Lucifer doesn't exist in your In Nomine campaign? How quaint. Because > he's certainly an Insoluble Problem, at least at the PC's level and at the > level of all the combined Archangels, for the foreseeable future. Hardly. The foreseeable future runs out to the foretold Armageddon, where Heaven will either win or lose. The possibility of a victory over Lucifer, a victory unaided by God's intervention, isn't just there, it's been bloody *prophesied*. > Same with the Ring. Now, the Ring isn't as actively malevolent as Lucifer, > so it's a different take on the whole thing. And *un*like Lucifer, there's > at least a temporary solution. Contain the thing. > > And if it gets out of containment? Fine. Deal with the current > Megalomaniac and bring it back. Certainly not a Universe-breaker. *blink* As specified in Moe's post, the Ring's most well-known major manifestation was *Legion*, who required the combined opposition of the Superiors of both sides *and* the sacrifice of Raphael to stop. Another possible major manifestation of the Ring was Uriel, which required God's own hand on the brake lever. And you say that the Ring is "certainly not a Universe-breaker?" I might agree with you, except for it's written history! As originally written by it's author, that thing spawned a threat that both sides came together like they never have before or since to destroy, because it threatened to break their shared world *that badly*. So, as I said -- if this thing gets out of containment, you might well end up with Legion II... if you're *lucky*. Imagine a Superior with this thing -- and Hell is more than full of young Princes (how many of Hell's Princes are so young they have no direct memory of Legion?) dumb enough to try, and more than full of demons dumber enough to try and curry favor by bringing this thing in... or putting it on themselves, drawing attention, getting squished by their Prince, and... And for a real worrisome moment... is the Lightbringer proud enough, egotistical enough, overconfident enough to think he can put this Ring on and survive? Quite possibly. Or for an even more horrible possibility... as he who was indirectly responsible for forging it, is the this thing's *master*? If the Lightbringer gained the Ring, could he go Sauron on your butt? I don't know, and since the only possible way of my finding out involves actually seeing it happen, prudence's sake requires me to assume that it is. In the absence of knowledge of an enemy's intentions, you make plans based on his capabilities. In the absence of knowedge of his full capabilities, you make plans based on the worst-case estimate of his possible capabilities. To do anything else is *bad strategy*... maybe not in trivial matters, but definitely so for matters where the prize for guessing wrong involves the risk of the Symphony being rended. So I dunno. When the original conception says flat-out that this thing has the combined power of millions of Forces, is itself a Living Artifact word-bound to a Superior-level Word (a Word that both sides are afraid to try giving out, BTW...), had a *partial* manifestation of its power become a force fearsome enough to require the combined Superiors of both sides to stop, etc, etc., I really can't get my brain around the idea of *not* treating it with the same sense of alarm one would treat a Legion-level threat... ... because it *was* a Legion-level threat. And that was on a day when it *wasn't* being the baddest it could possibly be. [snip] > >Heck, at that point you might as well have your character sit down and take > >a Flaming Sword to his wrists. 'Cause the DM just wrote you a > >relic/adventure seed/whatever where it's impossible to ever actually see > >victory achieved, whether by you or anybody else you could ever hope to see. > > There are *canon* examples of this kind of thing. There's a Destiny > adventure seed in S3 in which (maybe) the best ending you can really hope > for is to give a Remnant a clear conscience before his unavoidable death. Yeah, but the world don't get destroyed when you lose that one, so it's an acceptable loss. You feel sad at the guy's tragic passing, but it's not *literally* the end of the world. This thing *is* the end of the world, if it gets loose and you fail to stop it. How do I know? 'Cause it's already shown that. > >Intrinsically insoluble problems are not fair. Please don't write them. > >Or expect your players to put up with them. > > To use a pop culture reference, it's the Kobayashi Maru scenario. > Sometimes they happen, and it's interesting to see how players (we or they) > deal with it. Yeah, but when the Kobayashi Maru *isn't* a simulation? Inescapable loss only makes for a good game when the players aren't really losing any skin off their noses, and ditto for the cause they're fighting for. That covers both dying Remnants (it's a personal loss, but *only* personal, it's not going to lose the War for you) and starship simulators. > And one final comment, re: your contention that any such Insoluble Problem > implies a sadistic or moronic God. > > Your math is wrong. > > (Bet you didn't even think you'd done any...) I am pedantic, inflexible, stubborn, blunt, and many other things. But I ain't *snide*. And yet people lecture *me* on "capital..."? > A finite probability of a thing's occurrence does not mean that it will > occur, even over eternity, because there's no reason the probability has to > be constant. Good. Now show that the probability *is* decreasing over time. Not "may be", but "is". You see, unless I know for sure that the probability is decreasing over time to the point where the risk is truly nil, prudent planning requires me to assume that it's *not*. If the prize for guessing wrong is losing the whole ball of wax, you don't plan for best case -- you plan for worst case. Not unless you can afford to lose the whole ball of wax... which you can't. [snip large chunk of math] > Over all of eternity -- from time 0, the present, to forever and onward -- > you can calculate how long you're likely to be able to hold on to the > thing. Lo and behold, even with this simple probability density function, > the expected time before someone will reach the Ring is... infinite. In > all likelihood, no one will *ever* reach the Ring. Only if I spot you that initial postulate you made... which I don't have to, 'cause it's not grounded. > No one's saying the Symphony is that simple to calculate. But it *can* be > firmly and unequivocally said that your logic is wrong. Immortal beings > *can* win by achieving a sufficiently firm containment of evil. It's not > as glorious as a permanent and perfectly incontrovertible victory by the > destruction of your foe, but it *is* a worthwhile end to strive for, if > that's the best your efforts can achieve. Did they make the prophecy of Armageddon non-IN-canon while my attention was elsewhere? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:06:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Either way, it's my last word on any of this. My apologies to the > room, and I return you to your regularly scheduled programming. Apology accepted... just please no MORE. This argument is *inane* and *boring* (by far, the worser of the two adjectives). Be still about it. I ask you because Chuck will just argue with me about it if I ask him. :) (My viewpoint: Neat McGuffin. Wouldn't ever use it in my game - too powerful and problematic. A "solution" could be a good idea, but it'd work fine - just with a different spin - without a permanent solution, too. And definitely, definitely, definitely NOT worth arguing about.) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! :: Prayers are like junk mail for Jesus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Eng Subject: IN> Ummm...Ms. Line Editor? ...ma'am? Would you be so kind as to KABONG the thread that spawned from Moe's treatment of the One Ring? I think it's reached the limit of civil discussion. Hmm. Y'know, that thing really _is_ Evil. ObIN: If there is a One Ring, there have to be the Other Rings, right? Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the dwar...demon princes, and seven for humans, IIRC. So who's got them? GM's, you may begin to smile evil little smiles. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:25:23 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Khalid, to Elo or not... (Re: With Sincerest Apologies) At 06:08 PM 4/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >At 9:14 PM -0700 4/17/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >>Well, if he _could_ allow himself to have such a >>subjective reaction, he would. Not that objectivity >>issues were considered important when they decided on >>the AA of /Faith's/ fragging Choir... > >Hey, take it up with Derek Pearcy! At the time (this being >before I was LE), I was suggesting that he should be a Lawful Evil? That explains a lot, I suppose (come to think of it, it's probably the perfect alignment for the job; keep order with an iron fist :)) - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 04:10:22 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." > Intrinsically insoluble problems are not fair. Please don't write them. > Or expect your players to put up with them. Actually, the whole idea of merely delaying the inevitable sounds like it could make for powerful roleplaying. The concept of fighting with all your strength merely to make the world safe today, even if you know you'll have to fight again in the future, and will eventually lose... that's the stuff of tragedy. Even more so for immortals. Besides, the inevitable is only inevitable if it actually happens. Why will you eventually lose? There exists a possibility that, in an In Nomine world, you can fight this evil until the end of time. In most In Nomine games, the end of time is regarded as being pretty damned imminent. Even if that isn't the case, the idea that you could theoretically hold off an unbeatable evil for eternity -- and such a scenario is not impossible to imagine -- gives you the smallest glimmer of hope. In a dark campaign, the faintest lights shine even brighter. Heck, the idea of delaying the inevitable is the entire premise behind cyberpunk, and cyberpunk works. An appropriately dark In Nomine game would work equally well with such an relic. It's worth mentioning that In Nomine itself describes angels battling against inevitable failure. It's what happens when you turn the setting down to dark. Hell is winning, and winning fast, and the odds of Heaven catching up before the clock runs out are a million to one. Worse. It's not a question of who'll win the war. It's a question of when Heaven will lose. Sounds functionally equivalent to chucking a globe-stopping relic into a game... > Chuckg Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:26:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Ummm...Ms. Line Editor? On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Peter Eng wrote: > ObIN: If there is a One Ring, there have to be the Other Rings, right? > Three for the elv...ethereals, five for the dwar...demon princes, and > seven for humans, IIRC. > > So who's got them? Mammon? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics." -- Lady Whiteadder, Blackadder II ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:31:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Corporation of G.O.D Hmm... an interesting idea. I'm not sure I'd do it *quite* the same way, but you're absolutely right! There has to be SOME branch on Earth working on this 'new religion', and that's a good potential outline for one... thanks for the meme, Charles! - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Ummon asked: "The world is such a wide world, why do you answer a bell and don ceremonial robes?" (Zen Koan) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:34:46 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." >From: "Charles Glasgow" > >And at this point, I as a player generally tend to get up from the table >and >go "And maybe the DM would be better suited finding employment at a train >station", and depart. > Why? (No really, I'm curious as to what the issues are.) jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:39:35 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." >> Lucifer doesn't exist in your In Nomine campaign? How quaint. Because >> he's certainly an Insoluble Problem, at least at the PC's level and at the >> level of all the combined Archangels, for the foreseeable future. > >Hardly. The foreseeable future runs out to the foretold Armageddon, where >Heaven will either win or lose. The possibility of a victory over Lucifer, >a victory unaided by God's intervention, isn't just there, it's been bloody >*prophesied*. Are you assuming that Lucifer won't be Intervening on behalf of his own side? I'm not. And if the Devil's taking an active hand... well, not everybody's betting on Michael in a rematch, and even Mike's going to admit that he can't do it without God on a number of levels. Divine Interventions on their current scale are nice, but you're going to need some serious power when The Day comes. Maybe. See, Armageddon may have been foretold, but nobody except maybe Yves and Kronos (and Gabriel) can call it the "foreseeable" future, because nobody knows when, where, or how it will happen. There are a few sketchy details, but a lot of it is still up to us. Hence the War. >> And if it gets out of containment? Fine. Deal with the current >> Megalomaniac and bring it back. Certainly not a Universe-breaker. > >*blink* > >As specified in Moe's post, the Ring's most well-known major manifestation >was *Legion*, who required the combined opposition of the Superiors of both >sides *and* the sacrifice of Raphael to stop. Another possible major >manifestation of the Ring was Uriel, which required God's own hand on the >brake lever. > >And you say that the Ring is "certainly not a Universe-breaker?" Sure it is... if you've missed the signs for so long that someone has used the Ring long enough to gain the massive levels of power that Legion had reached before he was stopped. On the other hand, a perfectly reasonable scenario, one of a number of adventures built around this McGuffin, is "early detection." >> To use a pop culture reference, it's the Kobayashi Maru scenario. >> Sometimes they happen, and it's interesting to see how players (we or >they) >> deal with it. > >Yeah, but when the Kobayashi Maru *isn't* a simulation? > >Inescapable loss only makes for a good game when the players aren't really >losing any skin off their noses, and ditto for the cause they're fighting >for. That covers both dying Remnants (it's a personal loss, but *only* >personal, it's not going to lose the War for you) and starship simulators. And in this case, regarding the original exposition of the Ring, you said that problems required solutions. Well, they don't, which INHO is what's driving Dominic up the bloody wall, and problems without solutions make for interesting role-playing games every once in a while, purely for the purpose of seeing how you deal with it. When the problem is only that you have a temporary solution rather than a permanent one, the angst level drops by an order of magnitude. >Good. Now show that the probability *is* decreasing over time. Not "may >be", but "is". >... >Only if I spot you that initial postulate you made... which I don't have to, >'cause it's not grounded. Don't have to. My postulate's possible, so is one indicating that you're likely to lose it in a finite time. Different interpretations of the scenario are possible, which is exactly what everyone has been trying to say. From the point of view of the characters, you take the best you can do, and you try to make it better if it's not enough yet. Maybe some day, you'll figure it out, and maybe not. In the meantime, keep it from harming people. >> No one's saying the Symphony is that simple to calculate. But it *can* be >> firmly and unequivocally said that your logic is wrong. Immortal beings >> *can* win by achieving a sufficiently firm containment of evil. It's not >> as glorious as a permanent and perfectly incontrovertible victory by the >> destruction of your foe, but it *is* a worthwhile end to strive for, if >> that's the best your efforts can achieve. > >Did they make the prophecy of Armageddon non-IN-canon while my attention was >elsewhere? First off, with regards to the Ring, an inevitable Armageddon only strengthens my argument. You only have to guard the Ring for a finite time. Then if Heaven wins Armageddon, the Ring's no worry because the survivors, by definition, aren't that type. If Heaven loses, the Ring is only one of a number of equally Bad Things about to happen to you. Second, this last part was addressing your entire notion of problems and solutions over eternity. Or, if you care to stipulate Armageddon, an indeterminately large finite time, which so near you can shave with the difference. The point, which is tangential to the whole Ring affair, is that your notion of solving the problem is limited to a single incidence of destruction of its source, whereas a broader notion of "solution" can be introduced which is justifiable both from the characters' point of view and the omniscient point of view in the original presentation of the scenario. >-- >Chuckg The points being discussed are beginning to diverge from the original IN-related article. I propose that if you wish to continue the discussion we move it to private email. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:50:01 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." >I think this all adds up to a pretty strong case that God in IN does not >intervene. Celestials are all divine interventions. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:38:15 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." On the One Ring: I think you guys are missing the biggest danger of the whole "Jacob's Ladder" solution. After all, what would happen if the Almighty himself decided to pop that little baby onto one of his cosmic fingers? :) *Shudder* Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:17:19 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: Soul-killing Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... >(The important note about Soul-Killing in GURPS is at the end) > >>Ah, yes, and how I note it. :) Still, the Ugh Smash Bashh Shoot /should/ >>probably buy up his HT if he's going to be going up against Ug Smash Shoot >>Demon with HT 20. > >He's a *Malakite*. He can *afford* to run through Vessels in rapid >succession, whereas his demonic opponents can't. > >(Besides, he's planning on buying at least DR 3 on his Vessel... and Guns >(Rifle)-21 or so... and some really good telescopic scopes.) Cool. Are you charging 5pts or 3pts for DR (via vessel?) >[snip] >>Well, yeah. But -HTx5 for HT 20 is -100, meaning they've taken 120 points >>of damage. That's A LOT of damage. > >Remember, there are no blow-through caps on hits to the brain, and a x4 >damage multiplier. Yeah . . . I like the blow-through caps, they prevent death-by-ankle-bite kinda of stuff. >Remember also that the blow-through cap for Vitals hits isn't base HT but >is >HTx3, and that any respectable celestial marksman can get three-round >bursts >into the vitals all day long. With a 6d damage 7.62mm rifle. Crap, I'd forgotten that, thanks. Not that my players know they can shoot for the vitals yet. I should probably tell them (or just shoot their characters there ) >Remember also that there is *no* blow-through cap for shotguns (each 1d >being applied separately), and that there are 5d damage autoshotguns out >there with ROF 3+. That's an average of 52.5 hits of damage per round, >assuming three torso hits on an unarmored foe. Assuming three *vitals* >hits, that's 157 hits in one round. Sweet Jesus. That's nice. Three Hellsworn with 12-gauge >magnums, >one turn to aim, and coordinating fire can blow a 20-HT angel away before >he >can say "Jack Robinson", if he don't see it coming. Too true. So, really, the damage/health ratio that was a problem in In Nomine has been *reversed* in GIN. Keen!! >Gurps high-tech combat vs. high-HT foes rapidly turns into a war of really >fast obliterations. When PCs are fighting for survivals, they fight like a >combination between crazed weasels and corporate rules lawyers. LOL!! >(And given that the celestials will be doing their level best only to shoot >*each other*, even giving them lots of worry about Disturbance won't >entirely prevent this. Well, no. I'm feeling lucky that I was able to talk >them into >taking Roles where they can *only* get SMG's and rifles, as opposed to >RPG's, satchel charges, and anti-vehicle mines.) Good lord. The largest weapon any one of my PCs carries on his person is a sawed-off shotgun. >[snip] > >>Well, yeah, sounds like that won't work IYC. Instead, something much much >>more frustrating for the players can happen: The bad guys come back. Oh, >>yeah, you may have vaporized the corpse, but . . . we're immortal, >>remember? Whoo-hoo!!! Give the villians a few days to come out of Trauma, >>and they can be back on Earth in no time, baby. > >To quote the infamous Dave Bosworth -- "Oh, is that all? Hey, we killed >'em >once, we can do it again." (KODT reference.) *g* Props. >Admittedly, yes, that's what's going to happen. > >Provided, of course, that the demons managed to avoid hostile Superior >attention for failing their mission and ending up in Trauma. well, in theory yes. I would suggest that the PCs find out that merely killing the Demons isn't going to work. Nor will merely trashing the Demons' plans. Instead, the game could be made a lot more *political* when the PCs learn that they have to ruin the demons' power-base on earth. This means much more than trashing their apartment and setting it on fire(which by the amount of disturbance the would create should land the angel who set the fire a permanent desk job in Heaven). Instead, they'll need to investigate the Demons' patterns, track and locate their human contacts. The PCs should not be allowed to merely kill the Demons' human contacts (because of a Great Destiny or maybe because the contacts are completely unaware of the Demon's true nature and are therefore innocent), but instead have to buy the out, or persuade them (through-roleplaying, not dice-rolls) to not help Demon(s). On top of removing contacts, the Demons may be connected to groups of mortals who are not aware of the darker beings they work to support. (Anyone feel like slaughtering the local Girl Scout Troop, including the 2nd grader in the corner?) But it sounds like your players are more interesting in combat than intrigue. >>So, that probably means that the PCs will want to start Soul-killing them. >> >>hee hee hee . . . Soul killing in GIN, like that can ever actually >>(reliably) happen to a character who's IQ is 14 or higher. > >"Lost Soul hits may result in shock and stunning, similar to corporeal >damage." -- G:IN, p. 145 > >So unless somebody creates an advantage called "Celestial High Pain >Threshold" (or rules that normal High Pain Threshold applies to Soul hits), >all of those Will rolls to avoid taking Soul damage are being made at a >penalty equal to the # of Soul hits you took that turn. Remember, if you >take X amount of damage in a turn, then all rolls that turn are being made >at -X to your IQ and DX... that's what 'shock effects from damage' *means* >in GURPS-speak. Hrm . . . But, should that affect Will rolls (as per Aging to determine loss of characteristics)? >So when you take 8 Soul Hits in a turn and that kicks you over the >threshold >where you roll vs. Will to avoid celestial damage, then that's Will-8 >you're >rolling at. Sweet Jesus, it that even fair? That means that the MORE Soul hits you have, the MORE likely you are to take Permanent attribute loss. That's crazy! The fix I have for the Aging rolls is that you make your Aging rolls at Will-4, one roll per attribute and power "flavor" of power investiture. Celestial combat *is* pretty darn fast... you simply >have to >follow a strategy of nick, nick, nick, stunning blow (or celestial >grapple), >wind-up, *POWER ATTACK*. > >(From what I can interpret it, if Celestial combat works just like >Brawling, >then unarmed combat skills work in Celestial form, no? Time to haul out >the >Maneuvers List, as well as Karate, Judo, etc.) Yeah, you could probably do that. But, I dunno how well Judo works when your opponant is a ten-foot long dragon (Balseraph). >With that in mind, plus the fact that the corporeally wimpy Malakite of >Judgement is also a celestial combat machine (IQ 20!!! Good God, even with >his measly ST, he's still wrecking things really awfully in celestial >combat... largely because of his liberal use of called shots to places that >really hurt...) > >Errr, "called shots" in Celestial combat? Called shots to what? The Ofanite's head? It has no head, it's a spinning wheel of celestial flames. SFIAK, there should be no called shots in celestial combat, it's not fair to those creatures who actually /do/ have "heads" and "vitals." >>Just FYI, I *seriously* recommend purchasing Will and Perception >>separately. > >Errrr... mechanism? How do that work? 'k: ST (purchased as per normal att) DX ( " " " " " " " ) IQ ( " " " " " " " ) HT ( " " " " " " " ) WL 10 is base. raise or lower with Strong/Weak Will. PN 10 is base. raise or lower with Reduced Alterness/Alterness. WL = Will PN = Perception This is what I did with my GIN game, because I feel that Will and Perception are far too important in and of themselves to be merely extensions of IQ in GIN especially. I mean, since purchasing IQ 20 grants you Will 20 and Perception 20 as well, that's munchkin gaming in GIN, without a doubt. Will and Perception are used as separate attributes far far far too often in GIN for them to be merely extensions of IQ. (IQ 20 grants you /how/ much Will and Perception for *free*.) I granted my PCs an extra 25 character points, because normally their IQ purchase automatically grants them Will and Perception at the same level. /REALLY/ abusive in GIN. ANOTHER good reason to have a six-attribute split is for Soul-combat. in regular IN, if you lost all your Soul hits, you lost a Force, right? 1-2 Corporeal, 3-4 Ethereal, 5-6 Celestial. But in GIN, if you fail your Aging roll on your IQ, you lose not only a level of Intelligence, but also of Perception AND Will. That's /really/ crappy, since that touches on both Ethereal and Celestial-type stuff. Another Soul-combat loss of Characteristics fix I came up with is to do basically the same thing as in regular IN. 1-2 Corp loss, 3-4 Ethe loss, 5-6 Cele loss. You'd lose the corresponding level of power investiture, plus: Corp loss: lose 1 ST, 1 HT, and 1 level of Corporeal Investiture Ethe loss: lose 1 IQ, 1 DX, and 1 level of Etereal Investiture Cele loss: lose 1 WL, 1 PN, and 1 level of Celestial Investiture This prevents the loss of A LOT of attributes for PCs will low Will, and it also guarentees the loss of at least something for those with high Will. So, I like this idea a lot more than merely using Aging rolls. Also, this follows the original rules much closer, allowing for Remantcy (is that a word? nah) much more easily, and makes Celestial combat more, well, dangerous and unpleasant. >(While I do have experience DM'ing both GURPS and In Nomine, none of us >have >ever played GURPS IN before. Only three of us, including me, have played >regular IN before. Only two of us, including me, have played GURPS in any >form before. So I'm trying to start off without being overly complex while >still fixing what I perceive to be bugs.) > >>I have a .doc GIN character sheet if you're interested. It's what I use >>IMC. I could even HTML it for, you, man. :) > >Sure, send it over via e-mail. > >-- >Chuckg Well, I'm on my girlfriend's PC at the moment. I can send it later off - -list, please don't let me forget. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:33:32 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... >At 9:15 PM -0500 4/17/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >OK, something else I noticed in GURPS: IN, which we've just started up > >around here as a conversion from regular IN... > > > >Vessels die too damn fast. > >After experiences with an HT 13 character (GURPS Space) and a 144 Body >Hit Balseraph (not in the same game), I staunchly insist that that's >a FEATURE! I mean, geeze, we sideswiped the Bal with a van and he >Still Didn't Go Down, Darnit. (Though the Kintaran with HT 13 took >14 hits of damage in one blow (darn nunchucks) and didn't go down for >a pretty long time herself, and even then, it was unconsciousness...) > > >Vessel/x just became an advantage again. Each level of Vessel costs 5 > >points. And each level of Vessel gives you one point of DR, usable vs. >all > >attacks. > >What's wrong with racial DR? Isn't that something like 2-5 points per >level, these days? O:> (I don't remember if it's 2, 3, or 5. I'm >pretty sure it's not 4, though.) I'm pretty sure it's 3, but I don't have my books with me. > >Comments? > >I'd just let them take up to 6 levels of DR at the "Racial" costs instead >of the "Toughness" costs, myself... O;> > >Or give celestials the advantage of No Vitals, perhaps. (Just tack it onto >the rest of the mongo advantages they get and forget about it; I am SOOOOO >glad that we didn't try to stick with Everyone Has The Same Number Of >Points...) No Vitals . . . hrm. Now there's an interesting idea. >Perry's suggestion of Hard to Kill is pretty good too. O:> In general yes, but it sounds like the players have learned to bypass its advantages (always using death blows to make sure, etc). Of course, this causes me to realize that . . . are these player's actually /roleplaying characters/ or just playing a game of rules? >(And yes, I am listening; I need to run more games of my own, darnit... >I need to get s'more people interested in my Friday Afternoon proposed >game.) Sigh, if only I could make the commute. >At 1:55 PM -0700 4/18/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: > >>> body or cut off your head, just to make sure.) > >> > >> Problem is, that's exactly what will happen. > >> Likewise here... if we just rely on high HT and Hard To Kill, what >happens > >> then is you simply hear a lot of "He's down? OK, I take my Flaming >Sword > >> and cut his head off to make sure." > > >oh. hee hee that's funny. > > > > >speaking of Flaming Swords, note that Reliquaries are only half a point >per > >level in GIN (GINpg169-170), > >This may be errata'ed soon -- there were a few bugs when we went from >"Everyone has Essence based on Fatigue so they have double Essence" back >down. A lot of numbers got halved without someone looking closely to make >sure that they were being halved correctly. I _believe_ Reliquaries are >now 100 Essence per level to enchant... hrm > >which my players have taken full advantage of (like, our Bright Lilim has >10 > >reliquaries, grin, 5pts baby, hell yeah!) > >No kidding... Watch out for high-Perception demons spotting them! Doesn't matter. She's got a Perception score of 26 (she was converted, you see) will see them first. (Hell, she can ignore the vision penalities for complete darkess (-10) for all practical purposes. > >So unless somebody creates an advantage called "Celestial High Pain > >Threshold" (or rules that normal High Pain Threshold applies to Soul >hits), > >(I sure would.) again, an interesting an appropriate idea > >all of those Will rolls to avoid taking Soul damage are being made at a > >penalty equal to the # of Soul hits you took that turn. Remember, if you > >take X amount of damage in a turn, then all rolls that turn are being >made > >at -X to your IQ and DX... that's what 'shock effects from damage' >*means* > >in GURPS-speak. > >HUH? That's sure not how _I'd_ interpret the rule. I mean, unless it makes >soul-killing at an acceptable level in your game, I'd point out that the >roll to avoid damage is an _"AGING"_ roll, and therefore not affected by >recent damage. > >His Will-based rolls to _attack_ are going to be sucky, which means that >he's going to be having trouble on that front, of course. But the aging >roll... Nonononononononononono, the recent damage done does NOT affect >that in canon, far as I'm concerned. I'll ask Kromm for his take on it, >too, if you want. > >O8/ and I'd have to /completely/ agree here (not that I'd use the Aging rules anyway) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:40:09 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Gurps IN suggestion -- Vessels and DR... > >(And yes, I am listening; I need to run more games of my own, darnit... > >I need to get s'more people interested in my Friday Afternoon proposed > >game.) > >*perk* Friday afternoons? Not... *hopehope*... online, by any chance...? > >William *perk* Ooooh! Hadn't considered that. On-line?? ICQ perchance or the like? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:44:28 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> "Hi, my name is Moe, and I have no shame." > >As originally written, before the Mount Doom was supplied to counterbalance >the Ring's intro, this didn't exist. You and yours had no hope of ever >winning, you were all were just stalling for time. When you're a mortal, >playing for time can be considered a true victory of sorts... you defeated >the Evil in your generation, and that's all that a mortal can really be >expected to do. It's great if a mortal can build something or achieve >something that lasts for eternity, but it's not *required* of them. > Charles, It is _perfectly OK_ to play a gothic, gloomy game of IN where ruin & damnation may be inevitable and all PCs can do is try to bring as much light into the world as they can before the lights go out. God has been passive and uncommicative (with celestials) for so long that even angels are allowed to wonder (heretically) whether He really exists, or even still cares about His universe. It might not be your favoured style, which is fine. But it's totally legit to play the game that way. (Man, I am so glad you never saw my ultra-dark victory setting. Part of that was that archangels realised that God really didn't care.) jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:47:37 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> G.I. Angel Thank you Moe for permanently warping my brain to the point I spent all night reviewing webpages of old Joe episodes and renting the Movie again....I had to get this out of my system. Prodject: Archangel The U.S. Government knows about Angels, oh yes they do. However oddly enough instead of reacting with typical "it is different, it must be destroyed" some crazy person on the Oversight team of top Military Brass decided to just ditch the usual military "we don't know who to trust" and side with the angels. Prodject: Archangel was thus born and is the U.S. government's official task force for aiding in the location of, observation of, and annhilation of diabolical forces in the continental United States. Unsurprisingly Laurence having recognized his failure with the Divine Right of Kings only four hundred years ago was reluctant to immediately turn his back on his own decision but after a long talk with Michael he trusted his instinct that turning down a large bunch of soldiers is a bad idea. Based out of a Saint named military base somewhere on the Eastern coast of the United States the operation is selective in recruiting only A:) Highly religeous military personal or B:) Those who have had contact with Celestials but who C:) Have a strong sense of duty to the United States of America just in CASE the forces of Heaven prove to be a bit more Prophecy than generic good guy. The Archangel prodject is officially only known to the president, the military brass involved, and three senators who oversee it's black book funding. Laurence is pleased to say that the Tether has already formed to the War in the place and Michael has appointed a Drill Sergeant Seneschal, two Military advisors, along with Laurence's own tactical experts to help. The mission profile of Prodject Archangel is to locate particularly isolated tethers to the forces of the diabolic and members of the Diabolic or hellsworn in the United States or abroad and take them out. Needless to say this abundant access to weapons, assaisination, wetworks, and the like have Laurence tickled pink but unfortunately he may be ignoring the first rule of limited warfare.... Advantages bring Escalation to Conflict. Gehenna's Fist Baal has actively avoided really creating large terrorist cells directed at angels of mortal hellsworn for a long time now. While he supported the Nazis, Soviets, Carthagians, and numerous other organizations of purely mortal governments in goals to conquer the world he has never actively tried to control them. The reason is quite simply that Baal considers it beneath him to try....I mean who wants to spend the rest of their lives looking after ants which die compartivly in lifespan to a being like Baal. Unfortunately sometimes operations are too good to ignore and one of his Duke's had an idea for bringing an end to the current almost dictatorless realm that exists. Gehenna's Fist is actually not a terrorist organization per say but it actually controls the majority of them and secret cominques between their members use this sort of bandwith. Effectively a Diabolical infiltrates or founds an organization which is to create social unrest by robbing banks, blowing up buildings of innocents (Baal hates this but what can you do?), stockpiling weapons, and destroying works of art. Gehenna's Fist however is slowly bringing the organizations together in a web that the Duke of Terror (as he is now called) intends to develop a complete pyramid control over which in effect will give Baal control over a gigantic army of cells of highly trained, well armed, soldiers all over the world with differing idealogies and appearences that will make them all but impossible to track but with a word coordination will be possible in an instant. Not to mention the added bonus that terrorists being mindless murdering fanatics anyway won't really question why they've killed a florist one day, a street biker the next, ALOT of pizza delivery boys, and some pony tail trenchcoat wearing guy with a katanna. The stated goal of Gehenna's fist is ultimately to give Baal a world which is strengthened in terms of order and lessened in terms of Factions, Freedom, Theft, and other concepts he finds personally distasteful but filled with humans who fight NOT because of the things which men normally fight for (pay, safety of their families, patriotism, etc) but who fight because they want to fight. The glory of it, the rush it gives them, and the power over life and death that ultimately Baal believes is the only redeeming feature of the talking monkeys....and will provide him finally with enough soldiers in damned souls to begin the conquest of heaven when the time comes (even if as usual...he has to trigger it). I know what your thinking that such a plan requires alot of equipment and such that even Baal may have difficulty getting but remember that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how to build a nuclear bomb (the plans are on the internet) and Hell can just conjure the materials if they really need them. The same with highly dangerous bacteria. The same with nerve gas. Now realize Baal is simply holding off on these things until he figures out the best way to use them. Now be afraid. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2167 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.