From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 24 18:48:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00262 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:48:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA00724 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:56:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:56:12 -0500 Message-Id: <200104242356.SAA00724@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2178 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 24 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2178 In this digest: IN> Superiors and Death IN> Killing Superiors Re: IN> Superiors and Death IN> Gone to Graveyards 3: "Gone to Young Girls" Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 Re: IN> The Ethics of Holy Bullets Re: IN> Murdering Superiors Re: IN> Live bait Re: IN> Killing Superiors Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Soul killing and the Environment Re: IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> Re: Something or other Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Re: IN> IN Cynicism - Was Ethereal Rites IN> Killing Eli (Was RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175) Re: IN> The Ninth Gate Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Gone to Graveyards 3: "Gone to Young Girls" Re: IN> Gone to Graveyards 3: "Gone to Young Girls" Re: IN> April 16, 2001 (ML) Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Killing Superiors IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:03:36 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Superiors and Death >Okay, so you change canon for your game. Fine... so >maybe in your game >twenty demons dying IS the equivalent of Archangel >Christopher dying. >That's fine. But you might've wanted to say that back >when you first >brought the subject up. Y'know... adding "in MY game, >at least" to it. It's not changing cannon dude it's in the Gamemaster's Handbook that Superiors can just be 6-6-6 force angels with just very large ammounts of word forces. Effectively that means non-superior angels IMO if extremely well armed, well talented, and willing to lose a few members can if the Prince confronts them fully...beat the creature. It doesn't happen often but it's possible. 1:) Valefore and Genubath 2:) Haagenti and Meserach 3:) The Servitors of Dominic who killed Makatiel (theres no mention Dominic himself did it) That's still three superiors of Hell wiped out by less than Superior beings. Sorry if this sounds kooky to you but I like my Superiors toned down. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:09:44 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Killing Superiors >And Prodigal's right -- if you're going to stack the deck like this, it's >kind of pointless to ask "What would happen?" There's too many variables >which are peculiar to only this one non-canon situation. ) Not especially no. I want to kill Eli. I don't want Baal or any other Superior involved. I have to figure out a way of making it enjoyable in fanfic. Hence the question. I'm running through options and do appreciate everyone's thoughts. - -Charlemagne IMS I'll just use Eli has been removing his own memory forces for years at the direction of his girlfriend "Blondie" (Kobal) whose actually the architect of his "great work" which ties into his big joke. Thus thankfully he'll be close to mindless when the attack comes and Ophis can count on him to keep comming as part of the scheme. At least thats my flimsy rational ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:23:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death Charles Phipps wrote: > It's not changing cannon dude it's in the Gamemaster's Handbook that > Superiors can just be 6-6-6 force angels with just very large ammounts of> word forces. Actually, that's listed as an option. Canonically, Superiors are unquantifiable. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:26:56 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: IN> Gone to Graveyards 3: "Gone to Young Girls" Fasten your seatbelts, folks: This is where it starts to get *really* bumpy... ================== Dominic glanced back to confirm that Crater was still happily napping in Bronwyn's lap, then drew to his full height to address the Seraphim Council. "I apologize for calling you away from your duties," the Archangel of Judgment began, glancing among his gathered fellows, "But I have three items that I felt were too important to wait for one of our regularly-scheduled gatherings."Recent events have led me to the conclusion that I am not performing my duties to the best of my ability..." Several among the Council found the lack of the expected derisive snort from Michael as much of a surprise as Dominic's admission. "And so," Dominic continued, "I have chosen to travel to Earth, the better to clarify my own judgment. In my absence, I name Bronwyn to head the operations of Judgment. Further, I request that the Council grant her the Word of Justice, the better to enable her to fill my place while I am gone." Dominic waited patiently for the tumult of shocked voices to subside, and then cleared his throat. "And for the final item, I bring a candidate for Redemption. Novalis would have been the best choice to handle this task, but her loss leaves us with the necessity of choosing another to stand in her stead." "I believe this one is known to you all," Dominic said, gesturing the candidate who wore a cloak similar to his own forward. The furor that erupted as Andrealphus drew her hood back would have been deafening, had any present had human ears. - ----- "She has been simply standing there since asking for you," the seneschal had told Dominic, its vessel's face pale, "She does nothing to tempt us, but she is a Prince! Should we have left her unmolested? In peace, I mean," the cherub had continued as it realised the exact words it had used in relation to the Prince of Lust. "You have served me faithfully," Dominic said calmly as he strode into the tether's antechamber. "And now," he had asked Andrealphus, "Why have you come to a tether of Judgment? Have you somehow forgotten that as you are a sworn enemy of all that is holy, I should destroy you?" "I no longer care," the languid reply came, "The void within me calls for me to face judgment, and so you were the only one whom I felt it proper to call upon. I can no longer continue as I am, so I ask you for either redemption or oblivion. I leave the choice to you." Dominic had invoked his resonance, and absorbed the Truth of Andrealphus' words in mixed shock and approval. "Wear this," he told the former Prince of Lust as he offered her a cloak, "It will shield you from the light of Heaven until such time as we find the one who is best suited to redeem you." - ----- The distinguished man relaxed on a bench in the park, dividing his time between watching a kitten chasing the birds and listening to the pleasant young woman sitting beside him. "We all have been forced to admit our surprise at how well she is fitting into the Wind's organization," she said, "But the intelligence she has delivered to us has proved invaluable to the War's progress." "And how are you enjoying your duties and your new status as Archangel of Justice?" "Between the two of them, I gain a greater understanding of why you have been forced to set both temporarily aside," Bronwyn answered. "Good," Dominic replied with what would have been an uncharacteristic smile before he had chosen to take a leave of absence, "Then you will understand when I ask that you not deliver further reports to me unless I call upon you. The longer it is that duty pursues me, the longer it shall be before I am ready to face it once more. I promise not to keep you waiting for my return longer than is absolutely necessary, however." "That would be unjust, after all," Dominic concluded with a soft chuckle. "Bronwyn smiled."I understand," she replied, "And I look forward to the day of your return. Until then, I will respect your wishes." And with a rush of air, she vanished. "I thought she'd never leave." Dominic whirled around to face the source of the soft voice behind him, but recognition drove away all alarm in favor of laughter. "I wondered how long it would be until I ran into you," he said. Eli grinned as he stroked Crater behind the ears. "You're finally ready to begin seeing what I've been up to during my own walkabout," the Archangel of Creation answered him. "I hate to rush you, but there's too much for me to show you, and too little time to do it in. You ready?" Dominic pondered for a long moment, and then nodded. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Thus Superiors can appear in multiple places at once > because they are > technically EVERYWHERE but can bring their manifestation > into one area.... I don't care for this one much. Omnipresence implies an infinite being. The Superiors in IN, for all their power, are still demonstrably finite. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:43:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Ethics of Holy Bullets - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Okay maybe I've been reading waaaaay too much Wraith: the > Oblivion but I had > an idea which made celestial bullets much more costly to > the Host and > weapons much more prized. > > They're made of people. You're right, this would make (Un)Holy weapons a lot more rare. It would also make Heaven a lot less willing to use them. Tips the balance of power too much for my taste. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:51:43 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:32:57 -0500 "Charles Glasgow" writes: > > Eh? Why? It's not as if it's the most desirable Word out there... Uh, er, um... yes, it *is*. It's one of the big seven, you know. Granted, the other canonical holder of a deadly sin is Mammon, and he's only considered a minor Prince... but his Word still isn't going away any time soon. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:35:07 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Live bait On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:57:03 -0400 Marc Bowden writes: > And even so, what do you suppose is the lifespan of someone who > tries to refuse? You may round to the nearest femtosecond. Well, knowing the odd sense of humor of Lucifer, it's *also* perfectly possible to refuse a Word he offers. He'll want to mess with you somehow, but it doesn't rule out being able to refuse. (And in the case of the Demon of Strippers... was she ACTIVELY RESISTING the bestowing of the Word? Most demons won't, since even a trivial Word is a step up...) - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:45:40 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Killing Superiors > I want to kill Eli. > -Charlemagne > IMS I'll just use Eli has been removing his own memory forces for years at > the direction of his girlfriend "Blondie" (Kobal) whose actually the > At least thats my flimsy rational Leaving aside the fact that you're wiping out the coolest Archangel in creation... http://www.phargle.com/eli.html (Yes, I also have Kobal after him.) Eli did wipe his memories. How much did he wipe 'em? Why did he wipe 'em? How much does he remember? Is he even coherent enough to use his powers? And is that the point? Sure, he talks to his Servitors, but... If you assume that Eli wiped his memories in a major way, then a powerful Word-Bound non-Superior may be able to take a pot shot at him. I only ask that Eli take the bastard down with him. And make sure Eli ends up as a cool Remnant. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:47:32 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:00:39 -0500 "Charles Glasgow" writes: > Superior-on-Superior ineffability, methinks. Even if they *do* > submit to > the Resonation, the resonating Archangel still doesn't get the > highest check > digits. Although I suspect it would still find them honorable. The Malakite resonance does measure how you measure up to your personal code of honor, as I recall. And that scenario is something Jean and Jordi might very well do if they felt it was the only way - both are noted as pragmatic. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:35:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Soul killing and the Environment - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Okay does anyone think that the Death of a Superior or > wordbound or even > JUST CELESTIAL period should have some form of effect on > the environment in > question? [snip] > IMO whenever a celestial dies in a specific area the area > should promptly be > flooded with resonances appropriate to that type of > energy. I can see something like that happening in the case of soul death, but celestial-only combat would have celestial-only effects. Thus, the resonance you speak of would only be noticeable to beings who were Symphonically aware. As for corporeal death, Celestial Vessels aren't really part of the Symphony (that's why Celestials cause Disturbance and need Roles). For that reason, the impact on the Symphony of destroying a Vessel would probably be limited. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:12:02 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death At 02:03 PM 4/24/01 -0400, you wrote: >It's not changing cannon dude it's in the Gamemaster's Handbook that >Superiors can just be 6-6-6 force angels with just very large ammounts of >word forces. Effectively that means non-superior angels IMO if extremely >well armed, well talented, and willing to lose a few members can if the >Prince confronts them fully...beat the creature. Yes, and it's within the realm of possibility that someone could swim from San Francisco to Dover, going around Cape Horn. It doesn't mean that it's ever going to happen. >1:) Valefore and Genubath Valefor stole Genubath's Word. For all we know, Genubath himself is still around somewhere, Wordless. >2:) Haagenti and Meserach Haagenti devoured Meserach after he became Gluttony, IIRC. >3:) The Servitors of Dominic who killed Makatiel >(theres no mention Dominic himself did it) There's no mention that he didn't, either. (Again, IIRC.) >That's still three superiors of Hell wiped out by less than Superior beings. >Sorry if this sounds kooky to you but I like my Superiors toned down. In your game, that's fine. However, in canon In Nomine, that tends to not be the case. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:44:51 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Something or other On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:18:38 EDT BillionSix@aol.com writes: > Laurence would have to > choke back disgust to even consider working with demons, but he > might be convinced if you really played up the "possible redemption" > idea. Dominic would approve of the theory, but in actual practice > would want to keep a VEEERRRY close eye on the project, resonating > the participating renegades continually in every possible way. > Thinking of betraying us? Nuh-uh-uh! > I think it could work. Although I'd think having all kinds of Malakim who know exactly where you are and don't intend for the matter to end without you being either dead or Redeemed would be an even stronger motive to stay on the straight and narrow. :) - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:41:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites > If they haven't published it yet, I don't see why they'd bother to in > the future. Is there some reason to believe it will sell better in the > future, after the line has faded even further into obscurity? It's nouveux! It's minimalist! It's new and exciting! SJG is planning on unveiling at GenCON their new "no supplements/no customers" policy! See them publish no new supplements for months, even years! Watch as they drop obscure little hints on how something _might_ get written, really, honestly, if you Just Wait! Observe as all the customers go play Heaven and Earth* or Unknown Armies or a White Wolf game! It's a whole new wave in brand recognition strategy! It's a new synergized B2C digital business planned designed to actualize their customer to information ratio! It's breathtaking! So BUY NOW! Don't wait! Offer good only while supplies last! (thisadvertisementbroughttoyoubythekobaliteofficeofsarcasm) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner-Thornber -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith * Support GOO. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:19:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Cynicism - Was Ethereal Rites Michael Cleveland wrote: > I constantly hear from certain people on this list that IN is dead, that IN > has faded into obscurity, that IN is just completely doomed so why even > bother with it... Thatt's not quite what I've said. But I think my observation that IN is, essentially, a dead line, is not unreasonable. I suspect SJG may continue to occasionally put out a new supplement every year or two, but it's clearly never going to have the support it did initially. > At my FLGS, my retailer can barely keep the stuff on the shelves. It flies > out the door within a week of it arriving, if not sooner. I've got friends > in other cities who all say the same thing. Whereas at all my local FLGSs, they have had the same copies of Superiors 2 and the Corporeal Player's Guide and You Are Here gathering dust since they arrived. > If In Nomine fails, it is my personaly belief that it will not be because > the game sucked, or the company that put it out wasn't well known, or the > print quality was bad. Nobody has argued this. > It's going to be because nobody has noticed that it's there. Hardly. Everyone noticed In Nomine when it came out. It garnered quite a bit of attention. SJG made it the Big Thing in their release schedule that year. I know very few gamers who haven't at least heard of In Nomine. The problem is that after all the ballyhoo surrounding its release, the first few supplements were extremely shaky, for various reasons, and after that, management of the line was botched (also for various reasons). It floundered, lost steam, and has never recovered. And unfortunately, is unlikely ever to recover, given the nature of RPG lines. It may retain enough of a permanent core audience to sustain the occasional annual or bi-annual release, but to say it's never going to be as popular as D&D or GURPS is a massive understatement. I'd say it's more comparable to HARN. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:58:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Killing Eli (Was RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175) I'd have to say, off of the top of my head, that even a fighter-type non-Superior would be very, very hard-pressed to survive a combat with the AA of Creation in _any_ canonical or near-canonical campaign, for several reasons: 1). That Superior State Change Thingie. It's... well, seriously badass. Aside from everything else, the Essence available to even a minor Superior is frighteningly large: dumping, say, 25 Essence to improve your next Fighting roll will do baaaad things to your opponent (assuming that you don't instead do something more cost effective, like the Songs of Might or Possession or whatever. Heck, Song of Shields - around the _target_ - will give you the time you need to seriously Ruin His Day). True, in campaigns with quantified Superiors, this may be less of an issue, but then you run into... 2). "Which is the _real_ Eli, and Which is the Illusion?" I've never seen anything in canon to suggest that Eli's just walking around in _one_ vessel. Indeed, if he was seriously avoiding (or even sillily avoiding) the ever-so-polite Triads that need to pass along Dominic's request for a Little Chat, he's probably in two or three places at once as a matter of course. So you vessel-kill one of them. Hooray. The other manifestations of Eli take note, Create on the spot a Really Nasty Weapon (tm), and come looking for you. All at once. The Kyrio Battle Problem all over again ... and Eli doesn't have to worry about Dissonance. Now, you could junk the "multiple manifestation" rule for Superiors (well, _I_ wouldn't, but my judgement is well-known for it's oddities), but then there's the real killer... 3). /Hell Doesn't Want Eli Dead./ Leaving aside what would happen if the embodiment of Creation goes down the tubes (and don't think that /that/ little scenario doesn't keep Superiors up nights), there's the minor fact that having the former AA of Creation on its side would be a _massive_ shot in the arm for Hell. Nybbas is the obvious choice, here (so is Andre), but... I would say that Baal for one would just _love_ getting a reliable weaponsmith on board. He's looking forward to seeing Eli nice and corrupted, once and for all* - and wouldn't be thrilled to find out that some parvenu decided to ignore the schemes of his betters and roll 666 with the fabric of the universe. And Baal has Poor Impulse Control. They _all_ do, when it comes to non-Superiors. All that being said, if killing off Eli works in a specific campaign, that's cool: more power to the GM. That's why they sell the books: so that people can fiddle with them to their hearts' content. However, unless it's clear that canon is being ignored, players _will_ (IMO) ask - loudly - these kinds of questions, so it's best to have the answers worked out ahead of time. :) Moe *After all, they _were_ friends, once. Stuff like that is usually ignored in canon, but there is a certain satisfaction in having someone finally admit that you were right all along. The Older Princes simply *think* differently than the rabble they're making 'Superiors' these days. OK, that's just my interpetation, but it feels right, somehow. :) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:51:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Ninth Gate Ben Pollack wrote: > Then, of course, there is _The Seville Communion_ Interesting that the Vatican should want to investigate things in Seville, since this is the headquarters of the "Orthodox Catholic Church," headed by one "Pope Gregory," who broke away from the Roman Catholic Church at Vatican II, which he claims is the work of evil Masonic cardinals. Or so I heard from a nun of that church, whom I picked up hitch-hiking in the rain. Really. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:52:31 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 - --On Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:30 AM -0700 Michael Walton wrote: > > --- Charles Phipps wrote: >> Thus Superiors can appear in multiple places at once >> because they are >> technically EVERYWHERE but can bring their manifestation >> into one area.... > > I don't care for this one much. Omnipresence implies an > infinite being. The Superiors in IN, for all their power, > are still demonstrably finite. > Multipresence, not omnipresence, is implied. Superiors are of course finite, but some celestials are less finite than others. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:00:00 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. > Although I suspect it would still find them honorable. The Malakite > resonance does measure how you measure up to your personal code of honor, Does anyone really use it this way? I find it rather unplayable, and instead have it register against an objective sense of right and wrong, as defined by how bright the game is. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:03:38 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death At 1:12 PM -0500 4/24/01, EDG wrote: > >Valefor stole Genubath's Word. For all we know, Genubath himself is >still around somewhere, Wordless. I like to think he hollowed Genubath out like a cow and is wearing the Prince of Rapine like a skin, the Prince of Rapine himself down to one Celestial and 0 Ethereal Forces but a *lot* of Corporeal and Word Forces.... But then, I'm sick. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:47:53 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >> Although I suspect it would still find them honorable. The Malakite >> resonance does measure how you measure up to your personal code of honor, > >Does anyone really use it this way? I find it rather unplayable, and >instead have it register against an objective sense of right and wrong, as >defined by how bright the game is. > >Ben That means that there Exists an objective code of right and wrong in your game, which is frankly one of the Big Questions In Nomine concerns itself with. The canonical Malakim resonance is against someone's personal code of honor, much like the Seraph resonance can rarely be used on Balseraphim because they don't think they lie. A psychotic killer who believes he's doing the honorable thing will register as honorable to the Malakite resonance. With a middling good check digit, the Malakite will, however, pick up that the man's most honorable deed recently was "killing the drone the aliens made that looked like my girlfriend and wanted to abduct me," which alters things a bit. (Gosh -- if a Prince maneuvered a Malakite into being exposed to enough of these kind of guys, said angel might start thinking that honor isn't all it's cracked up to be... >^) ) William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:47:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Gone to Graveyards 3: "Gone to Young Girls" Oho, I am enjoying this immensely! What devilry *ahem* angelry will you be up to next? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:51:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Gone to Graveyards 3: "Gone to Young Girls" From: "Michael Walton" > Oho, I am enjoying this immensely! What devilry *ahem* > angelry will you be up to next? If you've figured out what song I took the chapter titles from, you should be able to start guessing... ;;;) (When will they ever learn?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> April 16, 2001 (ML) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Vasiariah > Seraph Mistress of the Realms of Night > Angel of Patriotism Interesting choice. I would've gone with a Cherub of Stone. > OK, so it's a big list. Heh! > 'Patriotism', as Vasiariah (and to a lesser extent, > Heaven) defines it is not the same as 'blind > fanaticism' (one reason why she decided to work for > Blandine, rather than David). I'd have to disagree with this one. Sincere love for one's country is exactly the kind of solidarity that David would want to promote. Blind fanaticism would be the province of, say, the Demon of Nationalism. OK, I hear you. I'll have the write-up in a couple of days. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:59:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Jahula > Kyriotate of Creation IST Children Enjoyed it. Especially... > See Jack run. That's how we should teach Celestials to read! "Hooked on Angelic worked for me!" ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:15:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death At 1:12 PM -0500 4/24/01, EDG wrote: >At 02:03 PM 4/24/01 -0400, you wrote: >>3:) The Servitors of Dominic who killed Makatiel >>(theres no mention Dominic himself did it) > >There's no mention that he didn't, either. (Again, IIRC.) It says "forces of Dominic." Even if Dominic himself didn't take a direct hand, one suspects that there were a _lot_ of 'em... And if they all had the Heavenly Judgment attunement, things could have gotten sticky. There's nothing in the "Sword of Judgment" attunement that demands that the invoking angel _stick around_, or that only one Sword of Judgment can be active at a time. >>That's still three superiors of Hell wiped out by less than Superior beings. >>Sorry if this sounds kooky to you but I like my Superiors toned down. > >In your game, that's fine. However, in canon In Nomine, that tends to not >be the case. Amen. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:20:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. At 1:00 PM -0600 4/24/01, Ben Glickler wrote: >> Although I suspect it would still find them honorable. The Malakite >> resonance does measure how you measure up to your personal code of honor, > >Does anyone really use it this way? I find it rather unplayable, and >instead have it register against an objective sense of right and wrong, as >defined by how bright the game is. I use it all the time; works wonders when the most honorable thing they did recently was murder three nuns. (Samingans, can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em fast enough...) The CD 6 is almost as good as a Divine Destiny for demons. Can make the Malakite really... _think_ about killing that demon, because even though they can see how dark the guy really is, they can also see how bright he _could_ be. (Right, Avishai?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:24:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Killing Superiors At 2:09 PM -0400 4/24/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >>And Prodigal's right -- if you're going to stack the deck like this, it's >>kind of pointless to ask "What would happen?" There's too many variables >>which are peculiar to only this one non-canon situation. ) > >Not especially no. >I want to kill Eli. >I don't want Baal or any other Superior involved. >I have to figure out a way of making it enjoyable in fanfic. Right -- but you've stacked the deck so thoroughly for this that what you're really asking, far as I can tell, is "read my mind for what I want that I don't know I want." Kind of frustrating, since there are so many assumptions being made that there's almost no common ground. I mean, I've gone waaaaaay beyond the ken of canon myself a time or three*, but I try to lay out my assumptions... Note that if you're going to make Eli weak enough to be taken out by a mere Word-bound, the SFX of his death will probably be correspondingly weakened, as well. * (For those wondering about the road map and the Ofanite on a leash, and how I got back anyway -- well, the "HOME" command is fun. O;> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:15:47 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: EPG >> (And while I think the EPG is on the far back of the stove, I don't >> think it's out of the kitchen yet.) > > If they haven't published it yet, I don't see why they'd bother to in > the future. Is there some reason to believe it will sell better in the > future, after the line has faded even further into obscurity? Just as a quick question here, but is there anything that us, the target audience, could possibly do to get the EPG printed sooner? Write massive amounts of e-mail to someone, yell and scream, dance on a pinhead, something? I mean when I heard that it was written but wasn't going to be immediately printed, I figured that this would just be a temporary situation, with the rethinking of the line and all. The fact that it still is not moving forward frustrates me to no end (and I don't even want to imagine how the authors feel). It seems that SJGames has decided to let then Revelations Cycle go out of print (a pretty sound idea, in my opinion), and things like the CPG and the Superiors books are making sure that critical material from that cycle isn't lost (while expanding on them and etc, etc.). However, the EPG is critical to this whole idea, since The Marches is arguably the most useful book in that entire cycle (and the only one I would consider recommending to a new player), but still doesn't come close to covering the material needed to really use Ethereals in a campaign. I suppose that there are still enough copies of The Marches out there, that SJGames doesn't feel like the EPG _has_ to be printed, but the reason the Rev books aren't going out-of-print faster is partially because people aren't satisfied with them and want things like the EPG. Of the information in The Marches, all the Blandine material (and the Menunim) is updated and expanded in S3, which means the book is already nearly half-obselete. Okay, I'm going to stop making arguments now, because they doubtlessly aren't impressing anyone and are probably not helping the situation. Basically, as a GM and player who really wants to see this material (much more than, say, another Superior book) it is incredibly frustrating to know it's out there somewhere, but that I can't get at it. Anyway, that's all. Just my personal rant on the situation. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:31:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG Jonathan Walton wrote: > Just as a quick question here, but is there anything that us, the target > audience, could possibly do to get the EPG printed sooner? Convince SJG that it will sell several thousand copies. (Which, sadly, is _extremely_ unlikely, and I base that opinion on hard numbers, not on "cynicism.") - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:31:05 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine > > The line in IN is blurred and shifting. [snip] > > But this does not blur the line into non existance. It > > simply makes it a > > matter of personal choice. Morality and right is almost > > never a matter > > defined by black and white except in dogma and > > fundamentalism. > > All excellent points. The inevitable "but" is that black >and white do exist, whether or not one chooses (there's >that word again 0:>) to acknowledge them. The criminal >justice system is largely based on moral absolutes like the >wrongness of stealing and killing. The absolutes _are_ >there, even when we as individuals find them inconvenient. > The real problem, as you pointed out so well, is that we >(and the characters in IN) don't live in a black-and-white >universe. There is a continuum with shades of gray along >its length -- but the existence of that continuum doesn't >change the absolutes at either end. There are certain >things that are absolutely right and absolutely wrong. >It's all that stuff in the gray between the extremes that >is the source this kind of debate... and the source of >dramatic conflict in the game. At risk of mutual back rub (something that is not bad on line and certainly preferable to flame), I fully agree. It is the ever shifting line of grey that is the source of some much drama in IN. The black and white exists, but mostly it shifts around at times and depends on various opinions. Some as you say remain constant, usually those that human society finds utterly abhorrent by which I mean in a global sense rather than any one culture or nation. Few IN demons actually go this far in the Corporeal, it makes them far too many enemies. Part of the real fun is that if God is perfect and all knowing, then Hell is part of the design and is perfect.... Risk of sliding into a classic heresy here. This makes Shedim perfect beings..... Sliding further... OK, so God is not perfect since Shedim are about as close to being beyond the dark side of the line as IN gets. Most other demons do at least have some redeeming features, hard to think of any for most of the fleshless. And of course from some perpectives even AA's or their close agents can step into the black. The Inquisition in various forms across Europe and America, Spain, the UK, Germany, Salem.... Most now agree that sort of thing was beyond the pale. Same goes for parts of the Purity Crusade which resulted in the destruction of whole cultures. I guess the line shifts over time as well. As you say, it's all part of the fun, and what to my mind makes IN such a wonderful game. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2178 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.