From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 25 00:22:26 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA32741 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:22:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA11854 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:30:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:30:20 -0500 Message-Id: <200104250530.AAA11854@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2179 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2179 In this digest: IN> Killing Superiors Re: IN> Re: EPG IN> Shedim as Evil Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> Live bait Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> Re: Live bait IN> After Hell... Re: IN> Cynicism, EPG, and Popularity Re: IN> After Hell... Re: IN> After Hell... IN> Something I always found strange Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine Re: IN> In Nomine in the Media Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Lucifer Granting Words [Re: IN> Re: Live bait] Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> After Hell... Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:19:49 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Killing Superiors Sorry if I'm offending anyone. I'm just trying to figure out ways to make it likely that the Archangel of Creation (or any other Superior) can be taken out by the forces of a Demon Prince's Duke. In this case I suggest it's unlikely that he WOULD win against Eli but in the game he'll be so baffled it's a legitamate possibility he might be killed because he's so addled that he won't fight back. Really I'm not "stacking the deck" I'm just trying to sound board off my ideas on how to make it well in a cannon thing. Also to answer my own questions about Superiors in IN. Sorry again. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:43:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG At 6:15 PM -0400 4/24/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >>> (And while I think the EPG is on the far back of the stove, I don't >>> think it's out of the kitchen yet.) >> >> If they haven't published it yet, I don't see why they'd bother to in >> the future. Is there some reason to believe it will sell better in the >> future, after the line has faded even further into obscurity? > >Just as a quick question here, but is there anything that us, the target >audience, could possibly do to get the EPG printed sooner? Write massive >amounts of e-mail to someone, yell and scream, dance on a pinhead, >something? Possibly. sjgames@io.com is the generic address for writing comments. The EPG does need an editor with a heavy hand, from some initial comments from other authors who've seen it. The line also needs more Houstons. (I've been looking at the line numbers recently; the main book seems to be continuing to sell steadily through 2000. Next up is the APG, then the IPG. The fact that so many people have their "second dose" with a book I consider seriously flawed.) Another thing you can do, if you want to try to help out (don't yell at me, people, he ASKED) is improve visibility and reinforce the idea that it's pulled out of the Rev Cycle slump of quality. RPG.net is one venue for that. Here, I'm tired and blood-sugar deprived, let me ramble in public here. Wild, crazy idea: expand the EPG to 144 pages (and/or slice heavily) and include the basic d666 mechanics, some kind of Song list, and a skills list, and market the sucker as a contained game. I'd have to re-read it to see if that would fly, mind, and it would probably annoy people who've read the main book and don't want to pay more for the rules [hm, a small-type appendix?], but would it amuse people who are interested in "pagan" stuff... Wilder, crazier idea: put the rules-set on the web, or as a freebie like GURPS Lite, and encourage packaging it with the EPG. (I mean, we're selling the _setting_, right? The rules set is cute but it's hardly what people are buying the main book for, is it?) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:25:48 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Shedim as Evil I just had a revelation about why Shedim are so darn Mean in In Nomine. Imagine you are the most laid back being in the cosmos because you can see how a dog sees a human, the human sees the dog, the tree sees them both and right back at them. Unlike Seraphim you don't know the truth of the situation but you can guess what everyone is feeling and it gives you the impression effectively everyone in the world at heart is probably an okay fellow because you share great intimacy with them. They just need guidence on occasion. Now imagine that over time you slowly come to view humanity (or whatever) as needing a very specific type of guidence and that guidence supersedes all other types of guidence. The more dissonant you become the more you come to realize that a very SPECIFIC viewpoint is all that you are able to witness. In effect the more a Kyriotate becomes fanatical about a cause and the more he dismisses his innate ability to look at things from a thousand different points the more he becomes a Shedim and once such a creature fallss.... He must acknowledge that Lucifer was correct (or at least his philosophy) and follow his chosen path of wickedness as fully as any being possibly can because otherwise self-examination and multiple perspective will result in you refracting again and that painful UNCERTAINTY is enough to drive you mad. Thus Shedim become dissonant by not further corrupting their hosts, if they don't then they arn't pursuing their cause and that just sucks for their sanity. Sometimes it's tough to be a demon. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:07:09 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Glickler" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. > Although I suspect it would still find them honorable. The Malakite > resonance does measure how you measure up to your personal code of honor, <> Yes. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:20:42 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death From: "Charles Phipps" >Okay, so you change canon for your game. Fine... so >maybe in your game >twenty demons dying IS the equivalent of Archangel >Christopher dying. >That's fine. But you might've wanted to say that back >when you first >brought the subject up. Y'know... adding "in MY game, >at least" to it. <> As a rules variant, noted as being heavily at odds with the "default" presumptions, specifically provided for people who want significantly weaker Superiors. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:32:49 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Live bait From: <<(And in the case of the Demon of Strippers... was she ACTIVELY RESISTING the bestowing of the Word?>> She was not--she didn't even know he was Lucifer until the man she was doing a striptease for said, "You must be the Demon of Strippers," and she suddenly realized that she was, indeed, the Demon of Strippers. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:09:16 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine >Part of the real fun is that if God is perfect and all knowing, then Hell >is part of the design and is perfect.... Risk of sliding into a classic >heresy here. This makes Shedim perfect beings..... Sliding further... Of course they're perfect. Perfectly evil. "Perfect" does not mean "Good", though most folks take it as such. - -- Casca _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:10:21 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG >Wilder, crazier idea: put the rules-set on the web, or as a freebie like >GURPS Lite, and encourage packaging it with the EPG. (I mean, we're >selling the _setting_, right? The rules set is cute but it's hardly >what people are buying the main book for, is it?) How is this wilder and crazier? Best idea I've heard in a long time. Why wouldn't it fly? - -- Casca _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:48:05 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait >[snip] >> > ... and given the selflessness of angels, you wouldn't even have to > >>be particularly manipulative about it. >> > >>The problem with this, as I see it, is that once one side does it, the >>other side can do it as well. Given Lucifer's ability to distribute Words, >>who's to say that all of the Archangels won't suddenly be experiencing >>word-friction within half an hour after they try something like this? > >In order to experience *significant* Word-friction, as opposed to "The wimp >on the other end went nuts in a week Word-friction", one would have to >appoint significantly powerful and Distincted demons to the task. IOW, the >ones who *aren't* too stupid to notice what you're doing to them. Most of >those (hell, *ALL* of those) kinds of demons ain't exactly gonna volunteer >for this job. Angels are selfless enough to volunteer for suicide missions. > Demons aren't. > >And can you give a Word to a being that not only isn't interested in it, but >is actively wishing not to get it? > >I dunno, but my guess is not. > >Just another advantage Heaven has over Hell. Isn't the Demon of Strippers in Night Music a demon who got her Word without asking for it (or really wanting it)? I would assume Lucifer could give a Word to any demon regardless of their desire for it. The real question of course is, would he? He's not a magic Word dispenser you just pop a few quarters into; I imagine every Word takes some effort to grant (so even the apparently frivilous Words have a tad more thought to them than it would appear). One would think he would object to just casually handing out Words as directed by somebody else's plan (or maybe he wouldn't; your guess as to which is more disturbing a thought to the Demon Prince in question...). I don't think any Demon Prince is crazy enough to pitch any plan involving Lucifer casually obeying the Prince's orders in regards to Words; no Word-bound, even a Demon Prince, probably wants to put the idea of playing funny tricks with Words in Lucifer's head (if you pardon the expression, Heaven help the poor bastard if Lucifer thinks it's more fun to mess with THEIR Word instead ("OK, Vapula, let's experiment with what you'd look like as the Demon Prince of Incontinence...")). On the bright side, the difficulty of granting Words probably applies to Heaven as well, so even if they were in a Dark enough setting to be willing to create a sacrificial lamb, the cost is probably too much for them to waste it on the mere possibility of bagging a Demon attracted by Word friction/envy. If they had a great plan that might wipe out the demon but leave the angel alive, maybe, but otherwise I don't see them lending themselves to making Word bound for such uses. - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and Juliet is AHHH THE SUN!!!" *FOOM* --Vampire theatre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:23:03 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> After Hell... *blink* Dew on the railing, sun on the horizon. It was dawn. A moment ago, I'd been in Notre Dame at noon, so that put me at roughly 90 to 100 degrees W longitude, in the Americas. Judging by the architectural styles of the skyscrapers around me, it was the U.S. I ran through skylines in my head and decided that I'd been set down in Houston, Texas. Allright. That would be a good place to start. I stood in the morning sunlight and breathed deeply. The morning air smelled of the exhaust of combustion engines, mainly. It certainly wasn't the dew in the pine forest that lay just a few hours' drive, or days' walk, north of here, and people were rightly afraid of what it could portend. But then, after Tartarus, no mere oilsmoke could twist the nostrils. I opened my eyes and looked down at the city from atop the observation deck of the high tower. The sun shone on glass and concrete and steel. Cars and people moved about below me, on their business public and private. Finally, I was one of them. I should have felt fragile. I should have felt naked and helpless. But then, helpless had never been something I did. A man joined me on the observation deck. He did a doubletake at my outfit, which well he might -- form-molding black leather and a rapier were hardly common attire in this city. I could have blended in, but had decided not to. That particular decision had caused a ruckus, but compared with the benefits, they were willing to accept it. Considering what I was giving up, they were willing to accept nigh on anything. I looked him over. Not bad, but not perfect. With a shock, I realized I was sizing him up for mating purposes, and another shock came as I realized who I'd been using as a standard of comparison. Well, not a standard of comparison... but I refused to bear a child with a man who was less than my equal, and I'd only known one man who was even close. No, I was unique. I always had been, most likely always would be. I shared humanity with the people walking below me, I shared their world, their air, with its smells of city and country. And in a few minutes, I would go down to join them. But I alone walked the earth as a part of it with twenty millenia of memories from every realm of existence. Those memories would not lay unused. I had plans, for myself and for the entire human race, and the ability to carry them out. Khalid had argued most violently about some of them, forcing me to abandon -- for the moment -- some of my more forthright notions. But I had insisted on the truth, if one that was unexplained in some parts. Litheroy might not have ranked as high as Khalid, but he had helped get this agreed to; Jean had agreed to deflect some of the more difficult lines of inquiry; Zadkiel had sworn my protection from a vengeful Hell. I'd accepted, since it would have been foolish not to, but she underestimated her opponents in this matter. It wasn't by violence that Lucifer wanted to see me fail. I had been a political coup in the first place, and he meant for me to be one still. Well, let them try. I would face up to the lot of them and emerge victorious. I could be underestimated, too. I was no more than human. I was earthbound for the remainder of my natural life. I was far less aware than I had been yesterday. But I was *Lilith*. And the world would know what that meant. - --------------- All these scenarios of Lilith Redeeming... no, no, no. She doesn't turn Angelic when she's stripped of her demonic powers, she turns into a human. And the Seraphim Council can hardly give a living human the power to enter the celestial realm, much less an Archangel-level Word. Lucifer still has a few tricks up his sleeve they can't seem to match. So they don't try. Instead, she shows up in Notre Dame, lays it out, and gets her powers stripped, leaving her "just" the baddest human (and only immortal one) currently in existence: Lilith Human (Free of Adam's Curse) Corporeal Forces - 5 Strength 10 Agility 10 Ethereal Forces - 5 Intelligence 10 Precision 10 Celestial Forces - 5 Will 10 Perception 10 Skills: (remember, as a human, Lilith can Master...) Quite a lot, even modern skills -- she'd been in contact with VapuTech, after all. In particular, anything dealing with social relationships, business, administration, or politicking is going to be at insane levels. Others are still notably high, though -- after all, few Superiors want to look less than expertly-informed about something in front of their subordinates, unless it's a particularly specific or technical field. Even fighting skills, at least the personal fighting arts -- every mental state you can practice could be useful. Probably the least-developed are going to be things like Survival, common domestic skills, use of mechanized weapons(at the Superior-combat level, it's mental state, not a tool, that wins, although Vapula might disagree). Lucid Dreaming is being *rapidly* developed. Songs: Anything except those Restricted to nonhumans (actually, she knows them, but can't use them), and a number of the Secret songs of Superiors. Some of the less... appealing... Songs may actually be at less than /6. Equipment: the secret resources of the Freedom organisation in the Corporeal realm, including funds and power objects that no other Superior knew she had. G:IN Stats ST 23 DX 26 IQ 23 HT 23 Advantages too numerous to list, starting with Unaging, Symphonic Awareness, Power Investiture, Multimillionaire, Zeroed, and some substantial Patrons, the organizations of Trade and Protection. Disadvantages: Enemy Group(Daughters of Lilith), Secret(ex-servant of Hell). The corporeal organizations of Faith and Judgment, concerned with making sure that she doesn't reveal celestial secrets to humanity. (I don't even know the name you'd put to an entity that is concerned with nonviolently limiting your actions -- Enemy? Of sorts?) Skills/Equipment: See above. So what does she plan? Well, knowing Lilith, it's not husband, kid, and house with white picket fence in suburbs. Well... not the suburbs anyway. She's flesh and blood, you know. But still -- despite the fact that Khalid and Dominic have insisted she not reveal even a smidgeon of her nature and history, Heaven has promised not to carry out a vendetta, and furthermore Marc and Zadkiel have set up lines of protection against attacks from her furious Daughters. This leaves her, in large part, free to pursue her plans. One can deduce something about her intentions from what she'd planned before Khalid put his foot down. She'd wanted to spread the fact of who she was, make hers a story to support the Abrahamic faiths, as well as being a living story of morality found. It would have had the side effect, of course, of making her a global celebrity, even a figure of awe. But that path's closed to her now. There's one thing for certain -- she's had a major impact on the world, in favor of Hell. Now that she has to worry about an eventual Judgment, that leaves her 20,000 years of embracing her Fate on a global scale to make up. And she seems optimistic about her chances... William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:31:07 -0500 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Cynicism, EPG, and Popularity >>If they haven't published [the EPG] yet, I don't see why they'd >>bother to in the future. Is there some reason to believe it will >>sell better in the future, after the line has faded even further >>into obscurity? > >At my FLGS, my retailer can barely keep the stuff on the shelves. It >flies out the door within a week of it arriving, if not sooner. I've >got friends in other cities who all say the same thing. If you pimp >the game properly, if you actually play the game once or twice at >the FLGS, if you show the thing off, if you let people look at the >mechanics and the style of it, I've found that there's a good chance >they'll take it. Well, here in Austin proper, just last week I found a mint-condition Demonic Hardback at Half-Price books for $12.50 (not that I'm complaining, now I have both >:), and this is the location next to the largest college campus in the US. Doesn't speak too well for a legion of rabid fans running around snapping up material. Then again, the local In Nomine LARP has swollen to grotesque proportions by hauling in Camarilla types. I think that there's a fairly large market that could be tapped into, at least the ones that don't take themselves overly seriously and spend too much time wallowing in angst (i.e. the ones Kobal considers "just too easy"). - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:28:06 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> After Hell... - -----Original Message----- From: William J. Keith To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: IN> After Hell... > One can deduce something about her intentions from what she'd >planned before Khalid put his foot down. She'd wanted to spread the fact >of who she was, make hers a story to support the Abrahamic faiths, as well >as being a living story of morality found. It would have had the side >effect, of course, of making her a global celebrity, even a figure of awe. >But that path's closed to her now. Well, she can't do it openly, but she might get around that restriction by fictionalizing her account somewhat. After all, Anne Rice made a killing "Interview with a Vampire", right? Can you imagine how much money would be in it for a good Ghostwriter to be the one to put his name on "Lillith, Freedom to Hell and Back: An Autobiography of Biblical Proportions"? > There's one thing for certain -- she's had a major impact on the >world, in favor of Hell. Now that she has to worry about an eventual >Judgment, that leaves her 20,000 years of embracing her Fate on a global >scale to make up. And she seems optimistic about her chances... Well, add to that the fact she now can't make Lillims, and suddenly her Daughters have become an endangered species... - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:35:46 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> After Hell... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Keith" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: IN> After Hell... > G:IN Stats > > ST 23 > DX 26 > IQ 23 > HT 23 Kee-ripes... these are higher than the stats for Second-Stage Lensmen (as rendered by GURPS Lensman), who were the penultimate results of a selective breeding project being carried out by omni-intelligent aliens, that stretched out unbroken over a timespan literally stretching back to humanity's earliest primate ancestor. Why not 20, 20, 22 [1], and 20? Remember, Lilith's max *is* under a Celestial's max, if not by much... - -- Chuckg [1] Lilith's lifestyle for the past twenty millennia has exercised her wits the most of all. I'd even accept 24 or so... or, more likely, absolutely *obscene* bonuses to both Perception and Will. Even if we agree that Lilith's stats go well beyond what were previously thought of in GURPS as absolute human max, IQ should still be her highest stat of all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:38:41 -0700 From: "Phillip" Subject: IN> Something I always found strange I was just rereading my copy of the IN main book, and I came accross that oart in the Malakim section that says "Of the other Choirs, the Ofanim accept the urgent seriousness of the Malakim with the least grace, eager to give a Malakite's honor a metaphorical wedgie just to see how starched his mental underwear really is." Personally, I always found that statement to be more than a tad strange. The Ofanim are, after all, the angels of Motion. If anything, I imagine they find the lack of urgency in the other Choirs to be frustrating as all Hell, if you'll excuse the expression. They'd probably identify with the Malakim as the only other Choir who really works as much as they do. Just my two cents. Anonimity is the best path to success -Unknown ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:11:48 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Walton" To: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 10:50 AM Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine > > --- Mary wrote: > > The power to choose one's own actions, no matter how much > > power one has, is > > the center of heroism. With a god telling everyone > > what's right and wrong, where is the struggle? > > Depends on whether the god is informing or enforcing. > When everyone is made to do right, there is no struggle. > But when you have clear knowledge of what right and wrong > are and yet still have the freedom to choose wrong, the > struggle is in you. Black-and-white morality doesn't > invalidate that inner turmoil -- quite often that's what > you need to create it. If the line separating right and > wrong is blurred into nonexistence, the ability to choose > between good and evil is taken away just as surely as if > one was prevented from doing wrong. In order to struggle > with crossing the line, one must have a line to cross. I agree with Michael here. When you cannot tell good from evil, you cannot choose either. Perhaps, Mary, you are more concerned with the struggle to determine *what is* good and *what is* evil. - -Perry, k-f-c perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:19:57 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine in the Media > Anyone else see last night's X-Files and think "Shedite of > Fire" about fifteen seconds into it? > > -- Santiago Hell Yeah!!! The bit of philosophy at the end was a neat idea, and very, very Shedite. and the slipper fit . . . - -Perry, k-f-c perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "Be careful what you pretend to be because you are what you pretend to be. " - --Kurt Vonnegut ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:35:07 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 11:09 PM Subject: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." > Blipping rule that Kyrios/Shedim are SOL when it comes > to Remnantizing: would it have been so hard to leave > more loopholes? I _hate_ using a MacGuffin to get > around stuff...* :) First off, if the Kyriotate's total forces is now 8 or less, it's now a Reliever and no longer an Angel proper, therefore no longer a Kyriotate, and so once in Limbo, it can build its own vessel. Same could true of the Shedite if it has 6 or fewer forces . . . And that's not even breaking the rules, it is?? When in doubt, Roll and Shout!!! Change the m04h3rf0k!nrule, man. If on the inner celestial plane, that which is "on" earth, do a Fallen bit, the Shedite/Kyriotate moves into the nearest Host and takes it over, automatically. If on the Celestial plane proper, have the Shedite/Kyriotate immediately shed enough forces to revert to Reliever/Imp status. Or, declare that when a Kyriotate/Shedite loses all their celestial forces, but still retains enough to still be a Celestial, God automatically intervenes and saves his creature (even the Demon) from destruction. Or, declare that because what's left of the Kyriotate/Shedite's forces is still in existance, they snap into the Ethereal plane, confused as to what they are or what's going on, but . . . Or . . . something else that I haven't thought of. - -Perry. K-F-C perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. " - --Dick Cavett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:45:02 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Lucifer Granting Words [Re: IN> Re: Live bait] - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Bruner To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:49 PM Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait >Isn't the Demon of Strippers in Night Music a demon who got her Word >without asking for it (or really wanting it)? I would assume Lucifer could >give a Word to any demon regardless of their desire for it. The real >question of course is, would he? He's not a magic Word dispenser you just >pop a few quarters into; I imagine every Word takes some effort to grant >(so even the apparently frivilous Words have a tad more thought to them >than it would appear). One would think he would object to just casually >handing out Words as directed by somebody else's plan (or maybe he >wouldn't; your guess as to which is more disturbing a thought to the Demon >Prince in question...). I don't think any Demon Prince is crazy enough to >pitch any plan involving Lucifer casually obeying the Prince's orders in >regards to Words; no Word-bound, even a Demon Prince, probably wants to put >the idea of playing funny tricks with Words in Lucifer's head (if you >pardon the expression, Heaven help the poor bastard if Lucifer thinks it's >more fun to mess with THEIR Word instead ("OK, Vapula, let's experiment >with what you'd look like as the Demon Prince of Incontinence...")). Well, there's that, and then there's the fact that Lucifer is mostly in it to Win the War, not just dole out Words willy-nilly. Remember, Demons are about Selfishness, and Lucifer was the First Demon. When he gives out words, Lucifer's first thought it always "What's in it for me?" The way I see it, Lucifer performs Word Granting for two seperate reasons: One, to get a useful weapon against Heaven, and Two, to keep something from bothering him too much. Important words such as Technology and Gluttonny fit into the first category, while words like Stale Bong Water fit in the second. Likewise, I think Lucifer promotes Princes not on a whim, like some believe, but does so like a master chess-player sets up a piece on his board. Here again, Lucifer raises Princes for two reasons: To make a frontline commander to lead his armies against Heaven, and to lead Souls to Hell. Baal, Belial and Saminga fit into the first category, Andrealphus, Fleurity and Kronos fit into the second one. Seen this way, Lucifer's naming of Princes seems a lot less random and chaotic then it seems, and more like Lucifer considering the potential gain from naming a prince. Take Nybbas, for exemple. No one, especially not Nybbas, expected the Impudite to gain a Princedom along with the word of the Media. But Lucifer saw potential in both the Demon and his invention, and took a calculated risk in making Nybbas into a Prince, a risk which paied off. And now, I leave you with a disturbing thought: Since Beelzebub's death, Lucifer's been looking for a major general, someone for all of Hell to rally around come Armageddon (since he would try to stay alive), a Beast of the Apocalypse, if you will. Legion and Magog were both experiments in making new Beasts, which ended up with the expected failure. Then, all of a sudden, Lucifer finds himself summoned through a ritual he'd originally invented as a Demon's punishment; a ritual he never intended to work correctly, but was reworked until it did. Surprised by this show of cleverness, she decides to answer the summons, and winds up on a stage, in front of Furfur, who's now asking for a Princedom: The Princedom of Rock And Roll. Lucifer, puzzled, resonnates the guy somehow and finds out everything about him, including his Word. Now, Lucifer's no fool, so he sees this kid's got guts, brains (up to a point), and an attitude he can use. Not to mention a Word with such Potential... So he gives Furfur his title, making him Prince of Hardcore, then lets the kid figure it out, which he does, much to Lucifer's contentment. You see, Hardcore, when taken to it's most philosophical meaning, means to simply just not give a $#!+ about the consequences of one's actions, and act on one's impulses. One opens oneself to Evil by being Hardcore, because one no longer cares about being Good. One becomes corrupted by Hardcore behavior. Lucifer knows that Heaven will be on the lookout for the next Prince of Corruption. So why not hide him in plain sight, with a word that doesn't scream Corruption, but works just as well to corrupt? Folks, they call him the Devil for a reason, you know? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:51:39 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." At 11:35 PM 4/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >First off, if the Kyriotate's total forces is now 8 or less, it's now a >Reliever and no longer an Angel proper, therefore no longer a Kyriotate, and >so once in Limbo, it can build its own vessel. Same could true of the >Shedite if it has 6 or fewer forces . . . >And that's not even breaking the rules, it is?? *blaring Canon klaxons* Actually, canonically (IIRC), angels and demons do NOT devolve into Relievers and Snots (respectively) when they drop below 9/7 Forces; they're still angels and demons, just ones with fewer Forces than a newly-fledged example of their kind. >When in doubt, Roll and Shout!!! Change the m04h3rf0k!nrule, man. Yes, but Moe does so try to stay within the bounds of canon. >Or, declare that because what's left of the Kyriotate/Shedite's forces is >still in existance, they snap into the Ethereal plane, confused as to what >they are or what's going on, but . . . Ooh. Erase their memories and make them an Ethereal? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:22:05 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> After Hell... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "William J. Keith" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: IN> After Hell... > All these scenarios of Lilith Redeeming... no, no, no. She doesn't turn > Angelic when she's stripped of her demonic powers, she turns into a human. > And the Seraphim Council can hardly give a living human the power to enter > the celestial realm, much less an Archangel-level Word. Lucifer still has > a few tricks up his sleeve they can't seem to match. The Seraphim Council cannot. God, however, can. And the Redemption of Lilith, the last survivor of the Eden Project, is one of the few things that I *can* imagine God's personal attention being caught by. Indeed, Lilith being Lilith (that is to say, having a real ego and always having to try to be unique, a cut above the rest), if she wanted to seek Redemption she probably wouldn't go to any Archangel. After all, they were merely her equals. Lilith won't bow to an equal, only to a Superior. And in her mental universe, only two beings fit that description. My idea of a Redemption scenario for Lilith is one where she merely goes to Earth, stands out in the open, looks up at the sky, and says "Very well. You were right, and he was wrong." Just a thought. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:41:47 -0400 From: Adam Thomas Gieseler Subject: Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites > In the EPG (written, but not published, probably never will be, unless I > can get SJG's permission to just post it on my website), ethereals are > given special powers and Rites based on the concepts of which they are > composed. So for example, a spirit with a "strand" of Fear in him might > earn Essence by causing a nightmare in a mortal's dreamscape, while a > spirit with a strand of Air could earn Essence by causing a mortal to > have a flying dream. Thanks. This is about what I was looking for. The specific Ethereal character is an Atlantean (a resident of the Ethereal Realm of Atlantis), so I imagine a Rite like, "Convince a skeptic that Atlantis really existed" would be fitting. What I had done, since it says in The Marches, page 108, that spirits can get the equivalent of Focus, is allow him to take Focus/2, which allows the character to sacrifice an animal or object for Essence. Upon rereading the Sorcery rules, though, this seems overpowered (allowing him to take Focus without paying the character points for an equivalent of the Sorcery Attunement is probably unbalanced). Giving him a Rite would probably make up for that. I do want Ethereal PCs to not be as powerful as demonic PCs (although I'm starting both at 7 Forces); their increased autonomy is a significant advantage. I figured lack of resonance and Rites made it fairly balanced. Therefore, I probably wouldn't give more than the single Rite (with the possibility of earning more for significantly building the legend of Atlantis up). If I understand you correctly Ethereals also can gain Attunement-like powers related to your nature. Although this probably wouldn't apply to this character (he's a magician from a magical continent, so probably some Songs, but no other special abilities), this is good to keep in mind for future possibilities. > Worship Rites are a rather different manner, since that's Essence sent > _to_ you by mortal worshippers, and you have to be above the level of a > PC to command that kind of power. Good point. I probably should have known they would be out of reach (after all, you have to be at least Word-bound to grant Rites, do you not?), but since that was the only mention of Rites I could find in the relevant section of The Marches I had assumed that was how Ethereals made most of their Essence. Regarding the stagnation of the Ethereal Player's Guide, I'm betting that it's not without hope. The ability to play the creatures of human myth is a major attraction for a game, and might very well attract people to In Nomine who wouldn't otherwise have been interested, much like the Psionics rules for AD&D. In any case, if enough people express enough interest for long enough, someone is bound to take note. (They finally published the last Mode novel, after all. Chalk one up for books thought to be hopeless.) Adam Gieseler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:21:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I This is Jo's fault. You see, she jokingly asked me, over on Pyramid, whether I was ever going to write any slash fiction. As I understand it, that genre's pretty much erotic (or pornographic) stories that involve characters from popular TV/movies/comic books/whatever. Homoerotic themes optional, but apparently fairly popular. This is about as close as I think that I'll ever get to writing something like that: which is to say, not even remotely close. Nothing wrong with the genre, but just not something that I can see myself writing. Anyway, blame Jo. ;) Moe P.S. Yeah, I suppose that it's sort of PG: neither has any naughty bits or words, but... Oh, heck, read them and you'll see why I called them PG. :) Sex Ed - Heaven "I'll spare all of you the lecture on the ... mechanics of it." Marc joined in on the general chuckle. The class of angels studying for their first tour of Earth duty was finally starting to relax from their unexpected teacher: granted, fairly solid rumor intimated that the Archangel of Trade was known to speak at these sessions, but it was still surprising to see. Not to mention nerve-wracking, at least at first: however, Mercurian charm was beginning to win out over mild awe. The Archangel of Trade leaned back against what, for lack of a better word, could be called a podium. "Yes. The mechanics of human sexuality were no doubt explained to you - in very great detail - by the team of biologists, chemists, psychologists and physicists retained by Lightning for just this purpose. Be grateful: Jean used to teach the classes himself." Another quietly-muffled mass chuckle: even the Dominicans in training smiled. "It is useful knowledge, though: never forget that. Among other things, it might serve as some intellectual comfort when one of the people that you're trying to help does things for no apparent reason. "However, what I'm here for today is to try to explain to you why it's necessary to saddle all of you with a simulation of such an odd set of processes. Like everything else we do, the justification is part science, part art, part sheer practicality and a large helping of improvisation. And, also like everything we do, doing it right the first time will save lives - including, incidentally, your own." Marc narrowed his eyes. "Yes... Hodniel, Elohite Servitor of Dreams. You had a question." The Elohite blinked: it had not actually indicated yet that it _wanted_ to ask a question. Still, it stood up. "Yes, Lord Marc." The Archangel of Trade raised an eyebrow: Hodniel went blank for a moment and nodded. "Excuse me. Yes, *Teacher*." Marc smiled and inclined his head. Hodniel continued. "Judging from past events, it would seem only logical to avoid possible complications when performing one's duties. While sexuality is a natural part of human reproductive behavior, it is not natural for celestials. I grant that specialists would require a working simulation for specific tasks, but why provide it as a default for all Servitors serving on the corporeal plane?" Marc nodded. "That question is always asked, and it's important that it be always answered. There are several reasons, actually. "The first is pragmatic. When on Earth, most of you will find it necessary to blend in with your fellow humans for long lengths of time. This will include those of you without formal Roles, incidentally. After the example of the Grigori..." The class stirred quietly at the forbidden name. Marc smiled, slightly bleakly. "Get used to hearing that name on Earth: demons are in the habit of saying it, the better to sniff out angels on their first tour of duty. As I was saying, after the Watchers' example, the Seraphim Council seriously considered mandating that all vessels were to be created without sex organs from then on. The notion didn't ever take effect: it would have made it too easy to detect angels. It would have also completely warped corporeal medical research, but that's another issue. The less anomalies our presence causes, the better. "Now, I know what the next question is: 'But why make those organs functional?' Again, there was a practical reason: very few Roles require vows of celibacy. Fornication is a fact of life down there, and indeed is one of the most popular hobbies in most human cultures. We have to blend in. "However, it's not just practical: there are emotional reasons, as well. I'm going to ask all of you to do me a favor and take on your Approximations of human form now. You Kyriotates, feel free to doze off at this point: you'll be getting this lesson when you do your first Dominations. We'll wake you up when things become relevant for you again." Needless to say, no Kyriotate 'dozed off', but they did add to the amusement as the assembled angels took on as much of the form of their primary vessels as is possible on the celestial plane. As they did so, the local area shifted to become more accommodating to humanoids. When the class was finished, Marc nodded: he had himself shifted to resemble a human male in his late thirties. "Right. Now, the signals that you're getting from these vessel-Approximations are currently not as complex as the ones that would come from a regular vessel on the corporeal plane. They certainly aren't as complex as the ones that would come from an actual corporeal body! The fact that some of you are finding the experience disconcerting is merely from lack of practice in interpretation. That will fade ... but not completely. "And that's a good thing, because now we go from science and practicality to art and improvisation." Marc sat down and paused for a moment. When he looked up, his expression was serious. "I've been giving this speech for five decades or so - ever since the previous teacher went off to do ... whatever it is that he's doing, in fact - and this next part has always been the most important piece of wisdom to impart. Like all great pieces of wisdom, it's pithy, short and hideously easy to misinterpret. Ready to hear it?" The class nodded, not quite in unison. Marc smiled, slightly crookedly. "You asked for it, and here it goes: /Humans are weaker than celestials/." The room went absolutely silent: this was worse than speaking the name of the Watchers. Marc waited for a moment, to let the silence go from looming to actively towering, then continued. "Relax: I haven't suddenly sprouted batwings. It's considered ... uncouth ... to say it, but the fact remains that humans are, on the average, physically weaker, slower, and sicklier than celestials. The arguments about whether they're less intelligent have been going on forever, and mostly depend on what yardstick you use to define intelligence. Certainly they pick up corporeal survival traits faster than we do, and trying to decipher their various cultures takes up thousands of celestial analysts. I should know: most of the angelic ones work for me. Note, too, that I used the words 'weaker than', not 'inferior to'. There's something ... ineffable about human souls. They have something that we lack, and we've never been able to reproduce it. The closest approximation turned out ... badly. "However, it's still a Truth that it's easier to hurt, wound or kill a mortal than it is to do the same to an angel. That is the fact that we cannot ever, ever forget, lest we cause an unintended injury. Not understanding humans can have fatal consequences. "I see the Kyriotates and those of my own Choir nodding. Good: I'm glad to see that the instructors are still making sure to pound that fact into your collective heads. You may have the most immediate concerns in this issue - but the rest of you are hardly immune to the problem. Failure to tread lightly around humanity is one of the primary causes of Falling." Every Virtue in the room suddenly straightened, each certain that Marc was looking them in the eyes (a perfectly accurate feeling, actually). "And don't think that not being in danger of Falling will protect you from inflicting unneeded pain, or suffering it yourself. To use a human phrase, we're playing with live ammo down there. "And this is why we incorporate sexuality into vessels. We don't dare give them the same drives and needs as corporeal bodies, but too many human activities make no sense without sexuality to give them a frame of reference. Having these urges will, I guarantee you, cause you to feel a peculiar sort of pain at some point in your careers. This is a good thing: it will allow you to properly emphasize with your charges." The Archangel of Trade smiled. "And, of course, it's a pleasurable experience when everything works right. Now, I'm not going to actually suggest that some of you listen to gossip and rumor" - a pause for the chuckle - "but I should tell those reprobates among you that both major rumors on the subject are wrong. Corporeal sex is neither the most ecstatic experience available anywhere nor a pale shadow to the closest equivalent on the celestial plane. Like all corporeal activities, it cannot really be compared at all to what goes on in Heaven. I make no comments about Hell, of course, but they're a bit degraded over there anyway. "And that leads me to my last point." The class became silent again, only now with less worry and more anger. "Yes. Demons and sexuality. It's one of their favorite weapons, of course: they appreciate the influence it has over humanity quite as much as we do, albeit for completely different reasons. Where we use it to heal or to bring people closer together, they use it to destroy and alienate. This, of course, allows them to prop up their delusion that humanity is not worth the cost of fighting the War, and none of them - none of them - can be trusted not to pile up human bodies in their vain quest to justify their Rebellion. If any of you encounter a demon using sexuality as a tool - no matter how innocent it seems - - it is your duty to stamp down on the practice, hard. This transcends Choir. This transcends Words. Humanity has enough problems as it is. "One thing more - well, more like a codicil to the last point. You might encounter a demon that wishes to indulge him, her or itself sexually with you. This may not necessarily seem like an active or passive problem: in fact, sometimes this desire will, indeed, be symptomatic of a desire to Redeem. Don't take the risk. Remember: there is a Prince that automatically promotes his servants if they manage to perform a consensual sexual act with an angel. Obviously, he thinks that such activities serve the cause of Hell. "This is possibly the only time that you can share a Demon Prince's opinion on anything." ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2179 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.