From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 25 13:06:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18752 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:06:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA04775 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:14:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:14:34 -0500 Message-Id: <200104251814.NAA04775@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2180 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2180 In this digest: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part II Re: IN> Shedim as Evil Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." IN> Pac-Man IN> More Questions IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> Something I always found strange Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part II IN> Where is God? Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I Re: IN> Re: EPG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part II And this is the other bit. I hope I got Azzie's voice down right. Again, it's all Jo's fault. ;) Moe Sex Ed - Hell "The key to sexuality is control." This is the first thing about Asmodeus' voice: it never seems to go above a whisper, yet it is always audible. Certainly the group of quietly terrified novice demons needed no help hearing his words as they frantically attempted to write them down verbatim. The Prince of the Game noted this, and continued. "Put away the notebooks." The sounds of pens being dropped, notebooks being whisked out of sight and sweat beading on foreheads filled the room. "If you are incapable of understanding this simple fact instantly, then you will never survive your first tour of duty on Earth, and your only legacy will be the hastily-scrawled notes that the next candidate will rip out of those notebooks without a second thought. Do not waste any more of Hell's resources than you can help." After the fear cleared to a more manageable level, Asmodeus continued. "There is no need for me to discuss the mechanics of sexuality: most of you have worked out that on your own. Those few who have not yet focussed on this aspect of their future tasks will be collected at the end of this session and brought to establishments run by my esteemed colleague so that they may acquire a grounding in the basics." This is the second thing about Asmodeus' voice: there is no inflection, no irony, not even cruelty in it - but it is not emotionless. Those demons present shuddered: both the ones that would be collected and the ones that would not. It was hard to tell which group had been derelict in their duties - but it was grimly certain that either one or the other had been. Possibly both. After a precisely-calculated moment, the Prince of the Game began to speak again. "So, instead of analyzing the outward form of corporeal sexuality, I will instead speak of its core. Control. Humans use sexuality to control each other, and you will use it to control humanity. That much is obvious. However, there is more than one kind of control, and the adequate demon must show that he has mastered the ways of both. "The first kind of control is control over others. This is the type that is most obvious: after all, humans have used sexuality to break others of their kind to their will throughout all of their history. We of Hell are better at it than they are, of course, but this is one place where their research will actually prove of use. Never scorn a tool, even a flawed one, if it will allow you to impose the Will of your Prince on humans. "Mortals have discovered that there are two ways to control others through sexuality: by granting it, and by denying it. Both ways have their uses. Some humans wish to be provided with certain acts: some wish to be denied them. Some wish to decry an activity in public and secretly indulge in it: others wish to be free to flaunt their activities to the world. Very few will not tolerate having their delusions reinforced, but even those that believe that they want 'honesty' can be controlled. Study of a particular human will show the best way to take possession of his or her strings: sloppiness in this is intolerable. "There is some debate about whether allowing a targeted human sexual pleasure is advisable. One school of thought, ably described by a certain Saint of Faith..." The class rustled at the forbidden name. Asmodeus looked - well, less bleak - for a moment. "I see that some of you have mistaken tradition for policy. While calling them 'Slaves' is, of course, accurate, see that you do not continue the practice if you graduate to Earth. The Word is currently in disfavor among many human cultures, and many of the Enemy will be eagerly waiting for those unfamiliar with the corporeal plane to make just that sort of slip. That is precisely why the word 'Saint' has never been forbidden by the Game. Unlike our foes, we are practical. "To continue, the first school of thought believes that it is not necessary to /permit/ an act of useful pleasure, as long as the subject /desires/ it. This belief has the advantage of being less work for us, but unfortunately the days when gratification could be denied entirely have passed. Many corporeal cultures have made avenues for sexual gratification sufficiently available that not even Hell may effectively control them all. Thus, the second school of thought postulates that any form of pleasure may be safely granted, so long as the subject is fixated upon receiving it from an appropriate source. Debate continues: you would be well-advised to follow your Prince's lead on this matter, as is only proper. "The advantages of controlling humans through sexuality are threefold. First, of course, is that many humans consider the act of reproduction to be a bonding ritual. It will be difficult to remember at times, but humans expect this ritual to be at least slightly reciprocal. They will expect you to actually 'care' about them, simply because a mere exchange of fluids and the firing of certain neurons in their brains. This delusion can even survive the revelation that their 'partner' is a demon. Some will even take pride in the fact. Needless to say, none of you will share in this delusion: Hell has even less use for lunatics than it does for fools. "The second advantage is that sexual activity is a necessary part of many Roles. Andrealphus and Nybbas have made certain of that, if nothing else." This is the third thing about Asmodeus' voice: while it is always cold, sometimes it is ... colder. "Depending on one's point of view, this is either a unfortunate side effect of other policies or an inspired method of blending in. No matter what your Prince's personal views on the matter, it is something that must be taken into consideration. "The third and final advantage is that this type of control will permit you a different way of exercising your own birthright of power over mortals. Hell does not mind when you demonstrate your superiority over your inferiors - indeed, we encourage it, provided that it does not interfere with your tasks. Some Princes take more stock in this particular affirmation of self than others, but few forbid it entirely. It is policy to permit anyone to take what they can keep. The fact that humans never can keep what they take merely underscores the rightness of our cause. "This leads us to the second type of control: control of one's self. I have touched upon this earlier, but now I shall say it outright for the slow: a proper demon must always be in control of the weaker. You all have your desires, and the Will to impose them upon the universe. This is only fitting, for your betters will do the same. The reason why they are your betters is because they have learned to better use their desires as a tool, rather than as an excuse. There are no excuses. You control, or you submit: but a demon that cannot control himself is a demon that cannot control others. This is why Discord is such a danger for most of you: it hints to the universe that there are places where your Will is weak. Hell will tolerate a hundred lunatics, a thousand fools, before it will accommodate one weakling." The Prince of the Game stood: as if by signal, two demons of the Game wheeled over what looked like a box covered in heavy cloth. In a gesture almost ostentatious in its lack of dramatics, Asmodeus removed the cloth to reveal an open framework of bars - - and a softly moaning figure inside them. The room grew so quiet that the Prince's voice, for once, seemed almost a shout. "This is an example. This demon was once an efficient Servitor - until he forgot to control himself. He allowed himself to be ruled by Lust, as can be plainly seen. This made him weak. He became so weak that when it came time for him to defend his Prince - and of course, himself - from the Enemy, he failed. The Enemy found him easy meat, and reduced him to a pitiful Remnant, forced to wander the streets until agents of the Game found him and brought him to me so that I could restore enough of him to show to you. He was unable to control even his own urges..." Asmodeus, at this point, casually reached into the framework and scooped out the lone Celestial Force. The explosion was fairly spectacular, very loud and quite messy, but no one dared remove the former demon from their faces as the Prince continued, "...and now he is gone, and none remember his name. Take this lesson to heart, lest you be the lesson someday." This is the fourth thing about Asmodeus' voice: sometimes, it _is_ cruel. "Are there any questions?" ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:11:06 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim as Evil > because otherwise self-examination and multiple perspective will result in > you refracting again and that painful UNCERTAINTY is enough to drive you > mad. Thus Shedim become dissonant by not further corrupting their hosts, if > they don't then they arn't pursuing their cause and that just sucks for > their sanity. > > Sometimes it's tough to be a demon. > > -Charlemagne oooooh, NICE. I was thinking that this might be a rehash of this weeks X-Files, in which the idea of evil as a "disease," that moves from host to host (literally) . . . This is more, and I like it. (I still like the idea of Evil as a disease, though) - -Perry, k-f-c perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:24:49 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." > >Or, declare that because what's left of the Kyriotate/Shedite's forces is > >still in existance, they snap into the Ethereal plane, confused as to what > >they are or what's going on, but . . . > > Ooh. Erase their memories and make them an Ethereal? that the idea, an ethereal who can't seem to manifest on earth, is lost and confused . . . maybe to be picked up by a god and helped to "relearn" things . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "Be careful what you pretend to be because you are what you pretend to be. " - --Kurt Vonnegut ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:08:21 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: IN> Pac-Man You all remember that Prodigal posted up his excellent writeup of Pac Man as an Ethereal Spirit allied with Haagen-Daz a couple of months ago? Well I was watching TV over the weekend, while recovering from surgery :( , and I found this out little gem. Thought it might amuse anyone using him in their campaign... In an interview, the guy who created the Pac Man game actually based the idea on stories his grandmother had told him when he was small. These were about a spirit called Pok Man (not sure of the spelling), who roamed the land devouring evil. Now if that's not a heavy fall I don't know what is - scourge of Hell to pawn of the Prince of Gluttony. Of course, there could be a few Angels who remember Pok Man the way he was and would rather like to turn him back into that. Possibilities? Cthulhu _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:09:02 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: IN> More Questions I have a few questions on rules here, and one or two on background stuff... 1. Can starting characters take relevant Choir/Band Attunements from another Superior? I ask because it's not explicitly stated one way or another in the main book (as far as I can see, anyway), and Sabrina, listed as balanced starting character, has both the Lilim of Lust and Gluttony attunements. 2. What happens if a Seraph resonates on a Celestial using a Role? i.e. Demon says "I'm Joe X the cleaner", and the Seraph checks if that's true or not? 3. What happens when two different Celestials on the same side hold the same Word? The scenario in question is as follows: I have the Demon of Drowning, a Servitor of the Oceans who's been in Limbo since Vephar snuffed it. This demon comes out of Limbo in modern times, by which point Saminga has (of course) sorted himself out a demon with the same Word. What should happen IC? 4. Are Superiors subject to their Choir/Band dissonance conditions? If they are then I can see a lot of problems for Andrealphus, Kobal and Nybbas - they can't allow any of their Servitors to kill anyone, and would have to give them express orders not to, or rack up loads of bum notes. Which would hurt, even if they *can* remove them at will. 5. In the official IN timeline, what eras were Makatiel and Beelzebub destroyed in? Cthulhu "Is there any food here which wasn't brutally slaughtered?" "I think the veal died of loneliness." - The Simpsons _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:05:26 +1200 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> The Words of the Fallen "So." The seven demons in the room shivered and remained staring at the floor. Grinding their foreheads into the lushious carpet in the vain hope of becoming part of it. "Heaven went *that* far. They've come out of general hiding and are now vigourously promoting their Words." One of the demons in particular, an Impudite, in fact the only Impudite in the room, found that the pain of carpet burn was less than the pain of listening to Asmodeus and concentrated more on grinding. "And the seven of you.....*missed* it." All seven stopped breathing and waited for the inevitable. "Missed it." A statement of fact, cold and exact. Asmodeus turned and his cloak swirled around him, swathing the demons with a blanket of rich cologne. All seven stifled their coughs as best they could as they felt the tremors of the Prince's cloven hooves heading out of the building. The door didn't hit him on the way out. The seven breathed and began getting up. "Well that was great! He didn't even kill one of us. I for one am pleased that such a benevolent and gracious Prince like Asmodeus got a hold of us first.... better him than, say, Nybbas. He did mention that the seven of us missed it. Well I for one *know* that I was well aware of Triuwida's appearance on the corporeal plane and was actually formulating a game plan when I was yanked back here. I don't know where he is getting his information from." The Balseraph's voice was light hearted and jovial. He punctuated his comment with a punch to what passed as the Djinn's shoulder. The six others believed everything he said. And for the rest of the day, thought that Asmodeus was much, much, much better to deal with than *any* other Prince in Hell. They also knew for a fact, that you couldn't catch the Demon of Lies sleeping. Not for a second. Terridian smiled as he walked out of the building. He was not going to be caught sleeping again. Lucifer smiled as Asmodeus personally passed the report over. Heaven was in for a shock several hundred years in the making. Dominic smiled as his chief liason officer handed over the report fresh from Hades, signed and sealed by The Prince of The Game himself. Dominic ordered all files on Demogorgon and Legion to be brought from whatever location to his personal office ASAP. That's right sports fans. Lucifer created the Band Words, and this time, he's done it right. *** I however am not the Lord of Darkness himself and need a little help. There are some certains. Lies, Stalking, Entropy, Emotion, Corruption. Those are pretty solid one for ones. Note that Destruction is not present but Entropy. This way I can see Belial being *less* annoyed when the Calabite of Entropy makes himself known to the population of Hell..... ;) The Lilim one and the Impudite one I am stuck on. I think that Temptation for the Lilim would be quite nice. The Impudite totally gets me though. Theft is already taken and I am struggling to find a word in English that can accomodate both being nice and taking stuff from people. The Demon of Essence maybe? Control? Bear in mind that there is a Kyrio with that Word as well. Hmmmm. Anyone? As soon as I have the final Words. I'll do it. Thanks Alex _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:38:23 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine - --On Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:31 PM +0100 Omentide wrote: > Part of the real fun is that if God is perfect and all knowing, > then Hell is part of the design and is perfect.... Wait, the logic starts to break down here for me. Hell was created as a point of exile - in canon the furthest point, celestially speaking, from the light of heaven. (When you Fall, you gotta hit the ground somewhere....ow.) > This makes Shedim perfect beings..... Uh...aren't Shedim broken Kyrios? And more to the point, didn't they break themselves by choice? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("If I make a watch and you choose to smash it with a hammer, it doesn't follow that I'm a bad watchmaker...") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 05:55:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > I'm preparing to GM an In Nomine campaign, and one > of my players > >wants to play an Ethereal. My question is, what Rites, > if any, should a > >starting Ethereal player character get? What sort of Ethereal does the player want? That makes a big difference. The way I run it is: 1) Pagan Spirits -- get Rites based on the Gods they work for. For example, a Spirit of Love IST Aphrodite could get Essence for consensual sex just like a Creationer. Because of the reduced power of the Ethereal gods, I'd only allow one such Rite (maybe two for the gods who've adapted really well to the modern era). 2) Primal Spirits -- I give them each one Rite based on their Affinity. An Air Spirit might get 1 Essence from spending an hour standing in high winds, while a Plant Spirit could charge up by spending an hour or two gardening. 3) Dream Fragments -- these guys are SOL. I don't allow them starting Rites. But if they survive long enough, they can develop their own Rites based on what sort of dream they came from and what part they played in it. Another issue, which I didn't see in your question, is Attunements. I don't allow Attunements for Dream Fragments (but they can be granted Attunements by more powerful spirits), Primals get Attunement-like powers from their Affinities (I allow two such powers), and Pagans get two Attunements (one from their Superior and one from their Pantheon). I'm still developing Pantheon Attunements -- I haven't had much demand for Ethereal PC's. The ones I do have: Olympians -- Shapeshifting (equal to the Celestial Song of Form with free Essence pumped into it equal to the player's Ethereal Forces, player may still spend additional Essence); Loa -- Possession (equivalent to the Shedite Resonance but without the need to corrupt the subject); Aesir -- Excellence (treat as Michael's Proficiency Attunement, but can be applied to any skill, not just weapons); Faerie -- Glamour (Ethereal Song of Light at no Essence cost). Hope that helps. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:03:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > "Perfect" does not mean "Good", though most folks take it > as such. Hmmmm... excellent point. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:28:26 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen >The Impudite totally gets me though. >Theft is already taken and I am struggling to find a word in English that >can accomodate both being nice and taking stuff from people. Really Cool People. The Calabite, of course, should be Gross Bodily Harm, and the Shedite has the Word of People Covered in Fish. - -- Casca "I had a Metatron once, but its head fell off." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:42:08 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen - --On Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:28 AM -0400 Eric Bertish wrote: >> The Impudite totally gets me though. >> Theft is already taken and I am struggling to find a word in >> English that can accomodate both being nice and taking stuff from >> people. > > Really Cool People. > > The Calabite, of course, should be Gross Bodily Harm, and the > Shedite has the Word of People Covered in Fish. > > -- Casca > > "I had a Metatron once, but its head fell off." > You owe me for a new keyboard, Eric.... Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("What chapter are you from?" "REVELATIONS SIX.") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:45:55 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG >> Just as a quick question here, but is there anything that us, the target >> audience, could possibly do to get the EPG printed sooner? > > Convince SJG that it will sell several thousand copies. (Which, sadly, > is _extremely_ unlikely, and I base that opinion on hard numbers, not on > "cynicism.") Unfortunately, I think you're absolutely right. Still, I'd agree to buy, say, three copies if only it would get printed. Heck, they wouldn't even have to print it. I'd pay to just get a PDF file of the stuff, to print out myself. Sigh. Well, I guess keep my fingers crossed for a little while longer, but they're getting rather sore from being held that way. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:55:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:51:39 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." >>When in doubt, Roll and Shout!!! Change the >>m04h3rf0k!nrule, man. > >Yes, but Moe does so try to stay within the bounds of >canon. Hmmm. Sorta. On alternate Wednesdays, at least. I guess what I'm most interested in are the _gaps_ in canon. Little grey areas, half-forgotten concepts and ambigious interpretations are my favorite places to go: that's where you can _really_ use a crowbar to good effect.* I usually like nothing better than to push the envelope of a particular thought or observation, just to see what it looks like when it's all mutated. And Heresies, of course. I like Heresies. They're pretty. :) Moe *Not maliciously, mind, and not to bring the whole structure down. Just ... well, a little unplanned interior decorating never hurt anyone, right? :) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:04:21 -0700 From: "Phillip" Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Somehow I see the Calabite as more Things Not Working Even After You've Hit Them. (Don't have my copy on hand, I think that's how it went.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:15:13 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG > Wilder, crazier idea: put the rules-set on the web, or as a freebie like > GURPS Lite, and encourage packaging it with the EPG. (I mean, we're > selling the _setting_, right? The rules set is cute but it's hardly > what people are buying the main book for, is it?) Another crazy (i.e. desperate) idea: How about sticking in GURPS conversion rules and billing it as a GURPS/In Nomine crossover book? I mean, most people that I know who've bought GURPS IN are using it as a sourcebook and not to run pure GIN games. I can definitely think of GURPS-heads who'd be interested in using the In Nomine system of ethereal beings. Since you've already got most of the rules laid out in GIN, you could reference that for most things and just include the rules that specifically related to ethereals. You could just put the GURPS stats in sideboxes and leave the main text for the d666 rules. Heck, you could even alter the name a little bit to appeal more to the GURPS audience. How about "Gods & Monsters: The Ethereal Players Guide"? Also, I think that any of the ideas that you previously mentioned are preferrable to the EPG not coming out at all. I don't think most IN players are going to be picky about _how_ this info comes out, just because we can't afford to be at this point. I mean, hell, some of us bought GIN just for the Grigori and that one liner about the Archangel of Song. I know I did. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:22:23 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen >Somehow I see the Calabite as more Things Not Working Even After You've Hit >Them. (Don't have my copy on hand, I think that's how it went.) Mmm... I could see that, sure. But then I could also see it as the Habbalite Word: the stupid monkeys are *clearly* broken, and so you hit them to make them shape up, and they don't listen DAMMIT and so you hit and hit and hit and YOU WORTHLESS SCUM YOU DON'T EVEN DESERVE TO BE CALLED SENTIENT! I KNOW TAPEWORMS WITH MORE SENSE THAN YOU!!! *ahem*. Sorry 'bout that. Wasn't another of the names "Watered Down Lager" or "Nonalcholic Beer" or somesuch? Sounds pretty Balseraphic. Then there's Ansaphones. "Let the stupid machine get it. I don't wanna talk to whoever's calling." Djinnish. Which leaves the Lilim still unassigned. I can't think if there are any others in the book. - -- Casca ("I DON'T CARE WHAT THE STUPID MACHINE SAYS. I NEVER TOUCHED HIM.") _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:26:34 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG The idea of doing the Ethereal Player's Guide as a spinoff can be done to great effect. Make it a real spinoff. Refine the rules, emphasize exploring dream realms, have warring pagan Gods, and the constant fringe threat of angels and demons. (Hey, hinting at adversaries without explaining their stats and effects worked for WhiteWolf...) Want to play the son of Apollo, adventuring with someone's escaped dream of Conan and a manifestation of Pan while you search for ley lines (tethers) to Atlantis from earth? You can, but watch out for the occasional avenging angel. I wonder if that's too similar a concept to Changeling... Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:34:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Something I always found strange - --- Phillip wrote: > The Ofanim are, after all, the angels of Motion. If > anything, I imagine > they find the lack of urgency in the other Choirs to be > frustrating as all > Hell, if you'll excuse the expression. They'd probably > identify with the > Malakim as the only other Choir who really works as much > as they do. I suspect that the problem is a fundamental difference of mindset. Ofanim, as angels of motion, typically have short attention spans. Their methodology is to "do it now." Malakim, as agents of honor, are more "do it right" types. This means that they take as much time as they need to achieve the goal -- to do less would be dishonorable. That kind of single-mindedness is something that Ofanim would see as borderline Dissonant ("You staked out the infernal Tether for _how_ long?!?). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:42:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > This is Jo's fault. Oh, sure, blame Jo. Give Jo the credit, more like. This is a good read. I especially like the last line. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:42:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > This is Jo's fault. Oh, sure, blame Jo. Give Jo the credit, more like. This is a good read. I especially like the last line. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:47:45 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG Our spies report that on 11:26 AM 4/25/01 -0600, Ben Glickler said: >Want to play the son of Apollo, adventuring with someone's escaped dream of >Conan and a manifestation of Pan while you search for ley lines (tethers) to >Atlantis from earth? You can, but watch out for the occasional avenging >angel. I think it could work. If you place the proper ethereal spin on everything... Pitch it from the point of view of an independent agent caught in the War on Drugs. Explain how the various pantheons and groups of dreams, etc would fight and push each other around. Then, at some point in the past, two factions rose to prominance. Despite ALLEGEDLY being at each others' throats now... The angels are fanatics. You aren't surprised by that, are you? They will burn temples, kill your vessels, kill your worshippers. They want to wipe us out. Zero tolerance, baby. The demons, you would think the enemy of the enemy would be theit friend, but it isn't so. The demons are like the Mafia. They don't all want to wipe us out, but if you work, you work for them. A lot of our kind were made an offer they couldn't refuse during the Purge. Most of them are still around, but there's no retirement plan to working for Hell. And of course, when the horned bastards need to sacrifice someone, who do you think goes first? Right. If you try to refuse the offer, they kill you, of course. Provide the right siege mentality and need to hide and you're striking a certain demographic out there. Isn't that the torment of it, you have to hide or you'll be killed/banished/forced to listen to a sermon but you cannot possibly regain the old glory without being very, very well-known... Interesting. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:51:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part II - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Sex Ed - Hell [shudder] ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:54:19 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: IN> Where is God? Or, for that matter, where is Lucifer? One of my assumptions about the IN universe is that everybody within it plays by the same rules. That is, on a cosmic, this is the way the universe works, immutable laws of metaphysics level, everyone plays by the same rules. Songs, attunements, etc. are all part of the rules. The second assumption is that what we experience in terms of Game Mechanics is an accurate model of the universe from the point of view of the characters, NPC and PC alike. The odds of success, based on skill, are the same for everyone. Given these assumptions, the odds of Intervention, (divine or diabolical) are the same for everyone; 1 in 54 (chance of rolling 111 or 666 on 3d6; chance of either intervention is 1 in 108). Now, if the world of In Nomine is like the real world in terms of mortal population, there are some 6 billion people running around, living their lives doing whatever they are trying to do. Going back to the assumption that everyone plays by the same rules, people do not have to test their skills (in game terms, roll the dice) all the time. some actions are so trivial that it too easy too fail. But lets assume, once a day, on average, a person does something sufficiently strenuous to their abilities to require a dice roll. So, Statistically, every 108th roll out of 6 billion rolls, God intervenes. Every day. And, every 108th roll out of of 6 billion rolls, Lucifer intervenes. Every Day. That works out to (roughly) 3 billion interventions every day. Where is God? God is Busy. Just a thought. - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:56:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen - --- Alex Liddell wrote: > I however am not the Lord of Darkness himself and need a > little help. There are some certains. > > Lies, Stalking, Entropy, Emotion, Corruption. Those are > pretty solid one > for ones. Note that Destruction is not present but > Entropy. This way I can > see Belial being *less* annoyed when the Calabite of > Entropy makes himself > known to the population of Hell..... ;) > > The Lilim one and the Impudite one I am stuck on. I > think that Temptation > for the Lilim would be quite nice. The Impudite totally > gets me though. Manipulation for Impudites. I agree that Temptation works for Lilim -- but so does Need. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:58:54 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." [snip] >I guess what I'm most interested in are the _gaps_ in >canon. Little grey areas, half-forgotten concepts and >ambigious interpretations are my favorite places to >go: that's where you can _really_ use a crowbar to >good effect.* I [snip] >*Not maliciously, mind, and not to bring the whole >structure down. Just ... well, a little unplanned >interior decorating never hurt anyone, right? :) Archangel Janus has accepted your petition to enter his service, Moe. What? You mean you hadn't filed one? Well, he accepted it anyway. Don't bother him with such petty details, he's in a hurry. *g* - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:03:23 -0700 From: "Marcus Evenstar" Subject: Re: IN> Hard to Describe Thing, Part I [Massive snippage of fantastic lecture] Mo, this is yet another keeper for my In Nomine files. (When I get such a game started is another matter.) However, my need for nit-picking Essence leads me to point the following: . > "And this is why we incorporate sexuality into > vessels. We don't dare give them the same drives and > needs as corporeal bodies, but too many human > activities make no sense without sexuality to give > them a frame of reference. Having these urges will, I > guarantee you, cause you to feel a peculiar sort of > pain at some point in your careers. This is a good > thing: it will allow you to properly emphasize with > your charges." ^^^^^^^^^ I do believe you meant to write "empathize" up there. Marcus "Unless it's Marc's BizSpeak" Evenstar - -- | RPG Chair - Dragonflight XXI | www.dragonflight.org | | MIB 2404 - Seattle Cell Leader | [Site undeveloped] | "You can't kill a man for trying to save the human race from Nutrasweet, Pokemon, and Governor George W. Bush." - Dr. Krigstein [The Authority] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:05:10 -0400 From: "Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM" Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG Archangel Beth wrote: > Possibly. sjgames@io.com is the generic address for writing comments. > The EPG does need an editor with a heavy hand, from some initial comments > from other authors who've seen it. The line also needs more Houstons. > (I've been looking at the line numbers recently; the main book seems > to be continuing to sell steadily through 2000. Next up is the APG, > then the IPG. The fact that so many people have their "second dose" > with a book I consider seriously flawed.) > Another thing you can do, if you want to try to help out (don't yell at > me, people, he ASKED) is improve visibility and reinforce the idea that > it's pulled out of the Rev Cycle slump of quality. RPG.net is one venue > for that. Beth, I'm a MiB (SJG demo Team, for those of you don't know).. And here's a few of my thoughts from the side of demoing... 1) If there's inventory of the Rev Cycle left in stock - Get rid of it. Let it drop from the sight of man (N.B. Perhaps a special program - any MiB that schedules an IN demo gets a free copy of all five books to GIVE to the participants - either splitting them up, or if it's a group that's getting the demo, to their regular gamemaster. This does two things - reduces the inventory on the books and creates a demand for the core rules - and probably the other supplements. 2) IN Light! Yes! we need this. The D666 mechanics (including combat, interventions, and disturbance); forces, stats, skills, some songs, some discords, Vessels, the Choirs and Bands and about 6 superiors - 3 a side (Mike/Dominic/Novalis vs. Baal/Asmodeus/Lillith perhaps? Chosen to be one physical, one plotter, and one 'different'). If tightly edited, and very art-light, it could be done in 32 pages. Send bundles to the MiB's and to stores. Put the PDF on the Web as with GURPS Light. 3) Have a set of supplements if not in the can and ready to print, as far along as you can get it - and send out with the demo teams a list of these supplements and projected release dates. Obviously there will be some slippage, but just the existance of a list, and the knowlege that the first one or two are ready to go as soon as demand hits appreciable levels will help build enthusiasm. > Beth, > Here, I'm tired and blood-sugar deprived, let me ramble in public here. > Wild, crazy idea: expand the EPG to 144 pages (and/or slice heavily) and > include the basic d666 mechanics, some kind of Song list, and a skills list, > and market the sucker as a contained game. I'd have to re-read it to see > if that would fly, mind, and it would probably annoy people who've read the > main book and don't want to pay more for the rules [hm, a small-type appendix?], > but would it amuse people who are interested in "pagan" stuff... > Wilder, crazier idea: put the rules-set on the web, or as a freebie like > GURPS Lite, and encourage packaging it with the EPG. (I mean, we're > selling the _setting_, right? The rules set is cute but it's hardly > what people are buying the main book for, is it?) Yes! This is the way to go.. Standard SJG supplement size is what.. 128 pages?.. if IN Light is 32 pages, bundle it with EPG - just like SJG did with GURPS Diskworld and almost did with GURPS Traveller. And don't just market the "pagan/new age" aspect. the "Land of Dreams" aspect would be good too - especially if you can advertise in some of the DC Vertigo comics - - "The Dreaming", the Sandman spinoff, is a natural here, but some of the other ones might be applicable as well. Joseph Paul Rocchi IBM Global Services ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2180 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.