From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Apr 25 19:17:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA30634 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:17:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA20772 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:24:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:24:43 -0500 Message-Id: <200104260024.TAA20772@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2181 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2181 In this digest: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen Re: IN> Re: EPG IN> Come whine with me! Re: IN> More Questions Re: IN> More Questions Re: IN> Come whine with me! Re: IN> Killing Superiors Re: IN> Re: EPG Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> More Questions Re: IN> More Questions Re: IN> More Questions IN> DO NOT - Come whine with me! Re: IN> More Questions Re: IN> Come whine with me! Re: IN> More Questions Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen IN> ADMIN: What Rev said. (Re: DO NOT - Come whine with me!) IN> Fwd: New Discord: Halo Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen IN> Eli the Christ IN> Re: After Hell... Re: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Halo Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) Re: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Halo Re: IN> I need a Word... Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:13:15 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen From: "Alex Liddell" <> ...? Wasn't he convinced that he couldn't be caught sleeping? :-) <> <> Taking. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:25:16 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG > Provide the right siege mentality and need to hide and you're striking a > certain demographic out there. Isn't that the torment of it, you have to > hide or you'll be killed/banished/forced to listen to a sermon but you > cannot possibly regain the old glory without being very, very well-known... Even better, *any* sort of character can exist. All it takes is for someone to dream it up and for that dream to escape. Your favorite D&D paladin fights side-by-side with Navarre from Ladyhawke in downtown New York as you try to stop the agents of evil from opening portals to H. P. Lovecraft's permanent dreamscape. > Interesting. > > Sean Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:22:07 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Come whine with me! >> Just as a quick question here, but is there anything that us, the target >> audience, could possibly do to get the EPG printed sooner? Write >> massive amounts of e-mail to someone, yell and scream, dance on a >> pinhead, something? > > Possibly. sjgames@io.com is the generic address for writing comments. BLATANT SOLICITATION: You are all cordially invited to come to an organized whining session to benefit the cause of the Ethereal Player's Guide and in the (possibly vain) hope that it will someday be printed. It doesn't take much. Just send off a message to < sjgames@io.com > and jot a few sentences about how much you want to see David's beautiful prose. Remember that this is something that will only have an effect if we can get some real numbers behind it (or maybe if we can offer some really convincing ways of making the book sell more copies). So please, please take a minute or two and add your voice to the collective Symphony of whining. Thank you for your time. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:32:12 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> More Questions From: "Cthulhu" <> Yes, though Sabrina's listing as a balanced starting character got erratad (she has a Geas). If the GM thinks it makes sense for the other Archangel/Demon Prince to have granted the character the attunement and not taken it away again. <<2. What happens if a Seraph resonates on a Celestial using a Role? i.e. Demon says "I'm Joe X the cleaner", and the Seraph checks if that's true or not?>> I would say the words "I'm Joe X" would register as a lie unless Joe X (or whatever) is actually a legitimate "nickname" of the celestial's real (i.e., celestial) name, but the words "the cleaner" would register as completely true--he is someone with a job as a cleaner, so it /is/ true. <<3. What happens when two different Celestials on the same side hold the same Word? The scenario in question is as follows: I have the Demon of Drowning, a Servitor of the Oceans who's been in Limbo since Vephar snuffed it. This demon comes out of Limbo in modern times, by which point Saminga has (of course) sorted himself out a demon with the same Word. What should happen IC?>> ...Not touching that one. <<4. Are Superiors subject to their Choir/Band dissonance conditions?>> Yes, very much so. << If they are then I can see a lot of problems for Andrealphus, Kobal and Nybbas - they can't allow any of their Servitors to kill anyone, and would have to give them express orders not to, or rack up loads of bum notes.>> "/Personally/ killing a human, through action or inaction." If they aren't there, they can play "don't ask/don't tell." Check the errata on Andrealphus' Kiss of Death attunement. ( http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/in-nomine.html ) --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:53:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> More Questions On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Cthulhu wrote: > 1. Can starting characters take relevant Choir/Band Attunements from > another Superior? I ask because it's not explicitly stated one way or > another in the main book (as far as I can see, anyway), and Sabrina, listed > as balanced starting character, has both the Lilim of Lust and Gluttony > attunements. Well first off, Sabrina's been errata'd, since Geasa are *not* legitimate starting Discord. So she's not a balanced starting character. Even if she were, she would still need a little note saying, "Sabrina would be a balanced starting character, if the GM allows the additional Band Attunements." It's totally a GM call. Personally, I'm way looser with Free Lilim who want to do it... I merely require a Geas/3 for each Band Attunement and a Geas/4 for each Servitor Attunement... oh, and you still have to pay full price for the attunements and get NO discount or points back fro the Geasa. Other characters need much more to convince me. :) > 2. What happens if a Seraph resonates on a Celestial using a Role? i.e. > Demon says "I'm Joe X the cleaner", and the Seraph checks if that's true or > not? Well, it's not the truth and it's not the Truth, so it's a lie all around. Now, if the person had any clue that he might be resonated, he'll say: "I'm the cleaner! Call me Joe... Joe Vladik." That's true and True. Some GMs would consider the first statement truth because of the Role, but that's kind of iffy to me. > 3. What happens when two different Celestials on the same side hold the > same Word? The scenario in question is as follows: I have the Demon of > Drowning, a Servitor of the Oceans who's been in Limbo since Vephar snuffed > it. This demon comes out of Limbo in modern times, by which point Saminga > has (of course) sorted himself out a demon with the same Word. What should > happen IC? Actually, that can't happen in canon. The second Word won't "take", which is a good indication that the original holder is still alive somewhere. (IIRC) > 4. Are Superiors subject to their Choir/Band dissonance conditions? If they > are then I can see a lot of problems for Andrealphus, Kobal and Nybbas - > they can't allow any of their Servitors to kill anyone, and would have to > give them express orders not to, or rack up loads of bum notes. Which would > hurt, even if they *can* remove them at will. Yes, though there's a suggestion somewhere (GMG?) that Superiors don't rack up dissonance - instead they temporarily lose Word Forces. Either way it's harsh. But you're mistaken... Andrealphus cannot ORDER someone to kill *a human*, true, but he can certainly let it happen without his knowledge and CERTAINLY doesn't have to give people express orders not to. Impudites don't suffer dissonance for humans dying unless they could definitely prevent it. Any anyways, like you said, Superiors can just eat the dissonance, then remove it with Essence. It's just an inconvenience. > 5. In the official IN timeline, what eras were Makatiel and Beelzebub > destroyed in? Don't have my books with me for this one. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! When you're having a bad day, remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 to pull the trigger of a decent sniper rifle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:52:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Come whine with me! At 2:22 PM -0400 4/25/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: >It doesn't take much. Just send off a message to < sjgames@io.com > and >jot a few sentences about how much you want to see David's beautiful prose. David and R. Sean Borgstrom, author of Nobilis. (Yes, this -is- the reason it needs a strong editor. On the other hand, with such an editor, I think it will pull together quite nicely.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:54:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Killing Superiors At 8:19 PM -0400 4/24/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >Sorry if I'm offending anyone. Not offending; _frustrating._ There's a difference, see. >[...] I'm just trying to >sound board off my ideas on how to make it well in a cannon thing. A canon thing, or a non-canon thing, or something having to do with heavy weaponry...? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:55:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: EPG At 10:10 PM -0400 4/24/01, Eric Bertish wrote: >>Wilder, crazier idea: put the rules-set on the web, or as a freebie like >>GURPS Lite, and encourage packaging it with the EPG. (I mean, we're >>selling the _setting_, right? The rules set is cute but it's hardly >>what people are buying the main book for, is it?) > >How is this wilder and crazier? Best idea I've heard in a long time. > >Why wouldn't it fly? No clue. I'll think about it. And something else wild 'n' crazy. Lots of things, really. Give me a few weeks. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:03:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." At 11:35 PM -0700 4/24/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Maurice Lane" > >> Blipping rule that Kyrios/Shedim are SOL when it comes >> to Remnantizing: would it have been so hard to leave >> more loopholes? I _hate_ using a MacGuffin to get >> around stuff...* :) > >First off, if the Kyriotate's total forces is now 8 or less, it's now a >Reliever and no longer an Angel proper, therefore no longer a Kyriotate, and >so once in Limbo, it can build its own vessel. Same could true of the >Shedite if it has 6 or fewer forces . . . > >And that's not even breaking the rules, it is?? An angel who's lost Forces is still its Choir. There is an implication that a _redeemed_ may turn into a reliever (though this is, frankly, more of a flavor thing) upon redemption. See the Malakite of Creation in the Liber Servitorum... O:> >When in doubt, Roll and Shout!!! Change the m04h3rf0k!nrule, man. That's the other option, yah. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:16:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More Questions At 4:09 AM -0500 4/25/01, Cthulhu wrote: >I have a few questions on rules here, and one or two on background stuff... > >1. Can starting characters take relevant Choir/Band Attunements from >another Superior? Yes, but they must have the GM's explicit approval. (Also, they can _only_ take the Choir/Band Attunement of their Choir/Band.) >another in the main book (as far as I can see, anyway), and Sabrina, listed >as balanced starting character, has both the Lilim of Lust and Gluttony >attunements. Sabrina's still listed as such? Hrm. I need to check her and errata... >2. What happens if a Seraph resonates on a Celestial using a Role? i.e. >Demon says "I'm Joe X the cleaner", and the Seraph checks if that's true or >not? It depends on how much the demon _is_ Joe X the cleaner. If he's got a good enough Role, he is. Mind, if the Seraph gets a high enough check digit, he gets that he's also Abraxus, the Calabite. Some people base the result entirely on the fact of a Role and the Seraph's check digit. Others will have the demon make a Role-check to see if their Role "holds" in the Symphony. >3. What happens when two different Celestials on the same side hold the >same Word? This is handled in the GMG. Basically, they are linked, as if their personalities overlapped somewhat. It's +VERY+ rare that it happens; demons who suddenly become linked with someone else's Symphony are generally not happy. >4. Are Superiors subject to their Choir/Band dissonance conditions? To some extent, yes. They have enough Essence to wipe it away, but generally they do not _directly_ violate the dissonance conditions. If they >are then I can see a lot of problems for Andrealphus, Kobal and Nybbas - >they can't allow any of their Servitors to kill anyone, and would have to >give them express orders not to, or rack up loads of bum notes. Which would >hurt, even if they *can* remove them at will. Kobal can kill humans with a practical joke, though -- see his Impudite Band Attunement! With the others -- they probably disapprove of vast human deaths, but they have a wider view and would generally adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude. (Andrealphus is noted in S2 as not liking to hear that the Kiss of Death attunement has been used on a _human_.) >5. In the official IN timeline, what eras were Makatiel and Beelzebub >destroyed in? That's in the GMG, and I can't look it up right now... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:58:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> More Questions I thought a Role *does* allow a demon to say "I'm Joe X the cleaner" and not set off a seraph's lie detector. The Role makes it not a lie -- he really is employed as a cleaner (it's part of keeping up the Role) and his name (one of them, anyway) really is Joe X. The same thing allows a seraph to say "I'm Joe X the cleaner" without taking dissonance. On a high check digit, the seraph might get a "yes, but--" but the general drift of the mechanics is that it's very hard to detect celestials who keep their heads down, in their vessels, doing their Roles. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:01:43 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> More Questions From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > 3. What happens when two different Celestials on the same side hold the > same Word? The scenario in question is as follows: I have the Demon of > Drowning, a Servitor of the Oceans who's been in Limbo since Vephar snuffed > it. This demon comes out of Limbo in modern times, by which point Saminga > has (of course) sorted himself out a demon with the same Word. What should > happen IC? <> You don't RC. See: Alaemon and Gebbeleth. <> The GM's Guide notes that Superiors don't have to worry about dissonance the same way Servitors do--but the idea of acting in dissonant ways is /very/ psychologically painful to them, such that a Seraph Archangel is /less/ likely to lie than a Seraph Servitor. > 5. In the official IN timeline, what eras were Makatiel and Beelzebub > destroyed in? Beelzebub: Died in 455 A.D. Makatiel: Died in 1348. (From the GM's Guide.) --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> DO NOT - Come whine with me! On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Jonathan Walton wrote: > >> Just as a quick question here, but is there anything that us, the target > >> audience, could possibly do to get the EPG printed sooner? Write > >> massive amounts of e-mail to someone, yell and scream, dance on a > >> pinhead, something? > > > > Possibly. sjgames@io.com is the generic address for writing comments. > > BLATANT SOLICITATION: > > You are all cordially invited to come to an organized whining session to > benefit the cause of the Ethereal Player's Guide and in the (possibly vain) > hope that it will someday be printed. > > It doesn't take much. Just send off a message to < sjgames@io.com > and > jot a few sentences about how much you want to see David's beautiful prose. NO. Think about this for a second. You want to FLOOD SJG with email asking them to pretty please print the EPG. That's more likely to piss them off than have a valid effect. If we're going to do this at all, let's at least combine the begging into *one* email, so it's more of a strong effect and less of a... well, SPAM. We need one editor (I nominate Jonathan :) to recieve all the emails begging SJG to release the EPG. The emails should be SHORT and to the POINT and should include your name and email address. *That* would be the professional and polite way to do this. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:04:16 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> More Questions From: "Earl Wajenberg" <> By the APG: No Seraph would say that. The Seraph would say, instead, "I go by Joe X, and I'm the cleaner." --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:08:14 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Come whine with me! At 2:52 PM -0400 4/25/01, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 2:22 PM -0400 4/25/01, Jonathan Walton wrote: > >>It doesn't take much. Just send off a message to < sjgames@io.com > and >>jot a few sentences about how much you want to see David's beautiful prose. > >David and R. Sean Borgstrom, author of Nobilis. For those who aren't aware, these are two of the best RPG writers I've encountered in my travels, for my money... and their styles *couldn't* be more different. So I don't envy that editor, but the result will be beautiful. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:55:26 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> More Questions >From: "Kish" >By the APG: No Seraph would say that. The Seraph would say, instead, "I go >by Joe X, and I'm the cleaner." If we're going to go the literal route, then the Seraph can't say the second part of that phrase, because it *isn't* a cleaner. It is, in fact, and Angel of the Lord performing the duties of a cleaner. "You may call me Joe X. I clean things around here," may be safe... except that then we get into implied falsehood, and by now we're so far along the slippery slope that practically anything the Seraph says in defense of its Role will get it Dissonance. Far better, I think, to take the expedient route and say, "You're got the Role? Then you *are* that person. There isn't another Joe X in the universe, so it's not a lie." - -- Casca And just to speed things along: Uriel was a Nazi, Dominic is a demon. Michael & Novalis are secretly in love, Laurence has a crush on Blandine, and Lilith is really, *really* kewl and isn't evil, just misderstood. Are there any tired threads I've forgotten? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:56:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Pedersen Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > >The Impudite totally gets me though. > >Theft is already taken and I am struggling to find > a word in English that > >can accomodate both being nice and taking stuff > from people. > > Really Cool People. > > The Calabite, of course, should be Gross Bodily > Harm, Grevious, actually. > and the Shedite has > the Word of People Covered in Fish. Speaking of Good Omens, I figured out what Band Crowley is: Balseraph. In fact, he's one of the most famous Balseraphs out there: Ophis! Remember, at the start of the book, it said he was responsible for the apple thing. And IN has a cannonical celestial responsible for that. And best of all, we don't know what Ophis is really like, AFAIK. Its assumed he's nasty and evil and stuff, but he could have just been following orders, and have not progressed much in Hell's hierarchy since. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:30:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: What Rev said. (Re: DO NOT - Come whine with me!) At 4:05 PM -0400 4/25/01, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >We need one editor (I nominate Jonathan :) to recieve all the emails >begging SJG to release the EPG. The emails should be SHORT and to the >POINT and should include your name and email address. *That* would be the >professional and polite way to do this. Or me, if Jonathan doesn't want 'em. Yes, exactly what Rev said, which is what I should have said if I weren't rather tired. *sigh* - --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor (arcangel@io.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:36:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Halo >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:53:33 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 6 >From: "Phillip" >Subject: New Discord: Halo > >This was an idea I had that came out of my realization about some of the >differences between WOD and IN (aside from the fact that IN is Truly a >better game :::)). One of th ebig points is that Angels and Demons have >reasons to be being secrative. Then this little discord popped into my >mind, as both a potential complication, and possbly something a Prince would >slap on a particularly u n subtle demon so he'd hopefully get a clue. I'm not >sure what variety of Discord this would be, but here goes: > >Discord: Halo > > A celestial with this discord generates a sort of 'Celestial Signature' >whenever they use a Song, causing physical manifestations of their nature. >At level one, it could be something as small as a faint odor (Incense or >Sulphur, maybe?). Around level three it would be something like having >their eyes glow brightly, and at level 6 they could be bathed in a halo of >divine light(or a corruscating aura of Hellfire). If nothing else, it means >that even mundane humans (not to mention other celestials) can finger him >out as something out of the ordinary. > > > I was thinking that could easily be any of the three, though I'm leaning >to Etherial (Like Aura), or Celestial. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:47:10 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> The Words of the Fallen - -----Original Message----- From: Alex Liddell To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:10 AM Subject: IN> The Words of the Fallen >The Lilim one and the Impudite one I am stuck on. I think that Temptation >for the Lilim would be quite nice. The Impudite totally gets me though. >Theft is already taken and I am struggling to find a word in English that >can accomodate both being nice and taking stuff from people. The Demon of >Essence maybe? Control? Bear in mind that there is a Kyrio with that Word >as well. Hmmmm. Anyone? Temptation sums up the Lilim quite perfectly. But for the Impudite, I can think of only one word that sums them up: Charm. It's what they do best, after all. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:32:46 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Eli the Christ So, I've been thinking about the whole "Eli is Jesus" theory for the last week and a half and decided that I don't really buy it. Admittedly, I think there is something that just seems _right_ about having Jesus of Nazereth be closely related to the Archangel of Creation, but having them be the same person just doesn't work in my mind. Instead, I have another theory on how this little heresy might play itself out. Muse with me, if you will. Some Gnostic traditions claim that Jesus was fully human, but that the Spirit (or Breath) of God descended upon him (usually at his baptism by John) early on in his ministry and then stayed with him up until right before the Crucifixion (the reason Jesus supposedly cried out "My God! Why have you forsaken me?" before he died, since the Spirit had just left him). Now, does this not sound like a classic case of possession to any of you? And, conveniently, Superiors are able to mimic the resonances of any Choir of angel, including, say, Kyriotates. Maybe you can see where I'm going here. So, Eli, after talking with Gabriel (who announced Jesus' birth), was very interested in what would happen to this young Prophet, and, as things so happen, at the moment when Jesus was baptised by John in the Jordan River, descended from the sky in the vessel of a dove and used the Kyriotate resonance to possess the young man. However, Eli did not simply send the Prophet's conciousness out into the Marches, as is normally the case with Kyriotate possession, instead, Eli "rode" Jesus like one of the Shedim, only making suggestions here and there and working miracles when it pleased the Archangel to do so. Of course, perverting the Kyriotate resonance like that is not a great idea, even for an Archangel, and Eli amassed a certain amount of Dissonance from his "Long Ride" to Jesus' crucifixion. This would, soon enough, lead to Dominic's crusade against the Archangel of Creation, though Judgement only had suspicions about where Eli's dissonance had come from, and didn't know the real truth. Another great thing about this idea, is that Eli wouldn't even have to leave Heaven to possess Jesus. Thanks to the multiplicity of Archangelness, Eli could easily be in two (or more) places at once, and no one would ever expect to look for him the body of a Jewish Prophet from the Galilee. Of course, Eli's biggest hunk of dissonance would have come from leaving Jesus right as he was crucified (well, this would only apply if Superiors are subject to other Choirs dissonance conditions, but I'm basing this on how Yves and Kronos' attunements work), not a good idea for someone who's acting like a Kyriotate. Since Jesus was then killed, the Archangel undeniably left the Prophet in worse shape than he found him. So, next, Eli not only had to deal with getting an important Prophet killed, but working off the dissonance that he had gained. When Jesus' soul floated up to Heaven, having reached his Destiny of being crucifed and beginning a new Divine religion, Eli was waiting for him and quickly spirited the Prophet off to a secret chamber in his Cathedral, where the Archangel prepared for Jesus a new vessel with which he would return to earth as a Saint of Creation. During the next three days, Eli and Jesus spoke deeply about their experiences on earth together, and also about what they each knew of God (Eli from his earliest memories, and Jesus from his direct revelations as a Prophet). Then, Eli went down with Jesus and saw to his "resurrection" as a Saint, staying behind in the tomb to tell Jesus' followers that he had risen. Finally, after the Prophet had visited his disciples again and given them some of the knowledge that Jesus and Eli had worked out together, the Saint returned to Heaven and the Archangel of Creation immediately bowed to Jesus' personal wishes. Eli sadly watched the mortal ascend up Jacob's Ladder into the Higher Heavens and silently morned that the human who knew him better than any other had moved on to another plane of existence. Is this just empty musing? Probably. But I think it works out surprisingly well and gives more props to humanity than simply having Eli _be_ Jesus. Besides, having Jesus say "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" is just a little too delicious, don't you think? Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:51:48 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> Re: After Hell... >Why not 20, 20, 22 [1], and 20? Remember, Lilith's max *is* under a >Celestial's max, if not by much... > >-- >Chuckg > >[1] Lilith's lifestyle for the past twenty millennia has exercised her wits >the most of all. I'd even accept 24 or so... or, more likely, absolutely >*obscene* bonuses to both Perception and Will. Even if we agree that >Lilith's stats go well beyond what were previously thought of in GURPS as >absolute human max, IQ should still be her highest stat of all. I tend to agree on all points; those were simply the stats one gets from a direct conversion, sans any obvious bonuses. If Lilith is a "perfect human," in the sense that God made her the best she could naturally be, one might well go with straight 20's and start adding advantages she developed over the centuries. In this case, there's so much uncertainty that any numbers are just guidelines; Lilith is unique, and the statistics were served up merely to enhance the secondary theme of my post, which is that even without her powers as a Superior, she would still be a force to be reckoned with. (And hey -- she doesn't even have to "Redeem" for this to happen, merely decide she'd be better off not having to toady to Lucifer anymore, and that being the most perfect human being on the planet would have advantages outweighing the whole Princess deal. That way, she'd be more of a Renegade than a Redeemed, and still selfish through and through. The whole Fate thing's still hanging over her head, though, and that will occupy her thoughts at the very least.) William ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:57:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Halo > >From: "Phillip" > >Discord: Halo [snip] > > I was thinking that could easily be any of the > three, though I'm leaning to Etherial (Like Aura), or > Celestial. I would say Celestial. I would also change the name to Nimbus because 1) "halo" has angelic connotations, and this can clearly afflict demons, and 2) it has effects similar to the Song of Nimbus with the twist that the sufferer has no control over it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:38:48 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) > Of course, Eli's biggest hunk of dissonance would have come from leaving > Jesus right as he was not a good idea for someone who's > acting like a Kyriotate. Since Jesus was then killed, the Archangel > undeniably left the Prophet in worse shape than he found him. So, next, > Eli not only had to deal with getting an important Prophet killed, but > working off the dissonance that he had gained. Not necesarily. I would suggest that leading a person to his destiny is, pretty much by definition, leaving them better off then you found them. So, by extension, if a Kyriotate possesing the body of a human saved a drowning child, but left the host with hypothermia which then killed him (the host), that could well be Dissonant. But if that was the hosts Destiny, then the Kyriotte is off the hook. After all, he left the host in Heaven, rather than on Earth, so he is better off than when the Kyriotate found him. From the point of view of the angel, he did his host a big favor. Besides, angels Know that there are things much worse than death. Some of them might even think that reincarnation is a worse thing than ascending into heaven, for Humans. Its just one of the ways in which an Angels viewpoint differs from a mortals. Just a thought. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:47:37 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) From: <> And, as a GM, would you consider the angelic viewpoint or the human one more important for the Kyriotate dissonance conditions? ("You" being directed to the group as a whole--I'm curious.) --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:06:07 GMT From: daiv@cruzio.com Subject: Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) > From: > > < angel, he did his host a big favor. Its just one of the ways in which an Angels viewpoint > differs from a mortals.>> > > And, as a GM, would you consider the angelic viewpoint or the human one more > important for the Kyriotate dissonance conditions? > > ("You" being directed to the group as a whole--I'm curious.) > > --Kish Well, actually, I would that it's the Symphonic viewpoint is the relevant one; so, if God smiles on what you did, then you are off the hook. I would add that Angels are a little better equipped to discern what the Symphonic viewpoint than humans (being able to hear it and all...). And dissonance, for angels, comes from willfully going against their own nature, as extensions of the Symphony. - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:37:47 -0700 From: "Phillip" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Halo > I would say Celestial. I would also change the name to > Nimbus because 1) "halo" has angelic connotations, and this > can clearly afflict demons, and 2) it has effects similar > to the Song of Nimbus with the twist that the sufferer has > no control over it. Good point. I'd selected Halo simply because of the effects. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know anything about the Song of Nimbus. (I've only got the basic book. Have pity on an unworthy blasphemer. :::)) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:44:27 -0400 From: Kirt Dankmyer Subject: Re: IN> I need a Word... > Specifically, an Angelic Word that: > > a), is evocative of the Word of Publicity Stunts, but > > b), won't cause a Seraph's brain to explode out of his > skull. I know I'm a month late on this, but: "Much-Needed Promotion"? Or "HonestProduct Promotion", perhaps. Has a sort of Marc ring to it. -Loki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:17:34 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Eli the Christ (death and reincarnation) >From: > ><angel, he did his host a big favor. >Besides, angels Know that there are things much worse than death. Some of >them >might even think that reincarnation is a worse thing than ascending into >heaven, for Humans. Its just one of the ways in which an Angels viewpoint >differs from a mortals.>> > >And, as a GM, would you consider the angelic viewpoint or the human one more >important for the Kyriotate dissonance conditions? > >("You" being directed to the group as a whole--I'm curious.) > > --Kish >ICQ# 28085879 >AIM Kish K M Once Eli had left Jesus, Christ could have yelled, "Okay, I recant all of it, just cut me down, I don't want to die like this." Not that it would have happened, likely, but it was *possible* because of human free will, so having achieved his Destiny was no sure thing, as his death is generally regarded as a major part of that Destiny. In the meantime, Eli had left him there dying from a slow, painful execution. Regardless of Eli's view on Destiny and Fate, I'd call that "worse off." A lot of Kyriotates have probably Fallen from leaving their hosts worse off, thinking all along that "It's for their own ultimate good," anyway. I was about to use Dominic's Kyriotates as a good example. Then I thought about it and was going to switch my position and use them as evidence for the other side. Now I'm not really sure. Dominic's Cherub, Kyriotate, and Mercurian attunements allow these angels to harm someone they normally wouldn't be able to harm, under the appropriate conditions. In a recent change of heart I had about Dominic, I decided that this wasn't necessarily a sign of a Superior that was losing touch what the Choirs stood for (my original belief). Rather, it is embodied in the concept of Judgment in all these angels' natures that punishment for one's crimes is a bettering force, regardless of the outward symptoms at the moment. Justified punishment is not considered "harm" for the purposes of their Choir Dissonance conditions, because as long as they obey the strictures of their Word and do not give out too harsh a punishment, their actions are approved by the Symphony/God as the necessary consequences of sin. *Failing* to provide a proper punishment isn't harm, but only by a matter of time -- your sin will find you out. So, is this evidence for one side or the other? The Symphony seems to be giving the nod to such actions, if they are appropriate to the Word. Or maybe it's just Dominic. Your call; I place it before the list for consideration. On a tangent, what do you think of the idea on the Dominicans? William ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2181 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.