From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Apr 28 23:04:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24061 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:04:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA29822 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:12:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:12:24 -0500 Message-Id: <200104290412.XAA29822@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2188 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, April 28 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2188 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2187 Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> Malakim and Falling Re: IN> Heaven Public TV: At the Movies with Dominic II IN> The Rings of Ineffability Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> Speaking of my Inner Archangel...* IN> Naming the Kitten! Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> Speaking of my Inner Archangel...* Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:26:22 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2187 > Nifty, but the problem with scenarios that have the entire universe as we > know it being built on an organized consensual deception of everybody except > a very few Superiors is that what's the explanation for why Alaemon isn't > getting an Essence-rush that's pumping him up to where he makes Lucifer look > like a gremlin? Probably he's in charge of maintaining the deception and Lucifer simply points out at say Gebbeleth and suggests that unless he spends the majority of his time MAKING SURE that everyone who doesn't know about the conspiracy actually keeps from finding it out before they're ready is gaurentee of his compliance. Alaemon knows the price of what will happen unless the Great Old ones are kept under wraps and it's driving him mad just like what happened to his predecessor is. Also the war may be about "toughening humanity up" and "weeding out the weak" so that Lucifer and David are on two seperate sides of the same coin. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:46:17 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Well you miss the obvious answer. >Things like this are why "Are you working with or for any society, secret or >otherwise, or similar group without the knowledge of your Superior?" "I want to see my Superior." "Did you trade information to Hell?" "I want to see my Superior." "Are you working against heaven?" "I want to see my Superior." The inquisitors better have a damn good reason to be bringing in one of Michael's best warriors and most trusted friends. When Michael arrives Dominic can politely explain to him that they suspect the young Angel of being part of a vast network of angels who are trying to increase the possibility of Armageddon. Michael looks at Dominic then looks at this. "Is this true?" "Of course it's true. I'm a servitor of War." "Okay." Then Michael takes his servitor and leaves. The problem with the Inquisition is that it's authority is by no means absolute and any angel who can keep his cool under questioning and not answer is going to be completely is going to get off scot free. Worse for the prosecution of a Master or similar angel they better have some darn good reasoning for doing it and it's perfectly in their rights to not dignify a peon's questioning with a response unless they have evidence and Dominic won't personally bring a case forward until he's sure he'll win. The Warhawks by it's nature is a society that operates both in plain sight and both fully in the shadows and fully out in the open. By using intermediaries and maintaining scape-goats who know nothing they are able to function without ever being investigated by the Divine Inquisition and anyone who is investigated doesn't know enough about it to implicate others. If this is unbelievable then you obviously miss the reason why Dominic has thus yet far been unable to get sufficent evidence to form a full picture of the warhawks activities. Members of Judgement are members. Seriously. Who watches the Watchers? The best way to run a corrupt district is to make sure the guy in IA who runs the investigations is on the payroll. In this case Dominic is surounded by similarly aged servitors who feel he's either incompetant, too harsh, or too forgiving. How many Judgement Seraphim looked at Dominic with hisses in their voices when he turned the first of their Choir onto Trial? How Many Malakim did the same? How many watched Dominic waste an entire 1/8th of Heaven's resources with outcasting? How many servitors of judgement lost friends in Fire when he trialed Gabriel? Heaven is already full of conspiracies already as Novalis/Andrephalus, Dominic/Asmodeus, Michael/Baal, the city of Austin, and other strangeness can attest too. If you have the Seraph assigner of triads to cases backing you, no member never needs be tried. Now think why Dominic is paranoid. He can't ask his servitors all their sins and just wait for them to confess them all.....he needs to trust and conversly that leaves a hole open which might kill him. - -Charlemagne Yes...the Warhawks corrupted Judgement member is Bronwyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:47:19 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Falling Just curious but... What if one of the -first malakim- not a superiour, but powerful one none the less was to have all of his oaths removed? What would happen to them? Would they fall apart and the forces scatter to the symphony? do little baby malakim (just fledged) sit around fires on tarining missions in to the marches and tell old mythic tales of those who suddenly ceased to be as they had acheived the oaths to the fullest of their abilities... Just a thought. Pleasent dreams folks... Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:54:29 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Heaven Public TV: At the Movies with Dominic II From: > > Oooh, oooh! Make Novalis watch something like "Pink Flamingos" - > which is an utterly disgusting movie. (And, if I do recall right, > the director of PF is the director of the upcoming LotR movies. Close, but not quite. John Waters directed "Pink Flamingos." The disgusting movie you're thinking of is "Meet the Feebles," which left scars on my eyeballs that still haven't healed after something like a decade... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:00:08 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Rings of Ineffability A artifact inspired by the Warhawks post.... The Rings of Ineffability These rings are each cast in a special forge where a celestial in question must spend a month meditating before hand on and purifying himself of all negative thoughts/deeds/ideas and then sacrafice a celestial force which will be bound into the ring. The ring is the bane of Seraphim of Litheroy and any touch it will instantly take a body point of damage and it will continue to burn so until it is tossed away. The ring of ineffability is a creation of the Warhawks group which realized that they're conspiracy would likely fall under the auspices of judgement or their superiors at one point so it would become necessary to do the impossible and lie yet somehow evade a Seraphim's resonance. The rings of ineffability were the result after years of study and working on their prodject in their spare time in secluded places. The rings operate on much the similar princible as a lie detector test can be fooled. The rings result in a celestial being nothing of the most pure and innocent of thoughts which remain from the sucessful meditations. All resonances will thus pick up claims of innocence when even the most base lie is told. The rings of ineffability are activated by a simple will roll before answering and turned off by a similar one when they are not....this act usually appears to be someone thinking about their answer. The rings themselves can absorb the dissonance of a Seraphim who lies also for about three points at which the rings will disentagrate into base nothingness. Rings of ineffability if examined would also reveal this strange ability to celestial observers would be unparralled incrimminating evidence but for the simple fact the rings are based on a design of the Archangel of Puritys which helps a subject maintain a pure mind. It is actually just a side-effect of the process which was researched. - -Charlemagne Needless to say....the possibilities of such a device open vastly unpleasant doors ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:40:12 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Phipps" To: Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 7:46 PM Subject: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) > Well you miss the obvious answer. > > >Things like this are why "Are you working with or for any society, secret > or > >otherwise, or similar group without the knowledge of your Superior?" > > "I want to see my Superior." "You have the right to answer questions truthfully -- and that's it. Now fess up or it's 'obstruction of Judgement'... and while you might be innocent of everything else in the universe, we *can* still try and sentence you for that. And will, if you stall one question longer." [snip] > Then Michael takes his servitor and leaves. If he *can*. Just because the Firstborn can't stand the Hyena and is the biggest angel in Heaven, this by no means ensures that he can flout Judgement with impunity. It took a Divine Intervention to get him off the last time... and that was on a pretty subjective set of charges! > The problem with the > Inquisition is that it's authority is by no means absolute Say vas? So far, Judgement has shown that it has the authority to bring the Commander of the Host up on charges (and he only got off because of a pardon from God), Outcast an entire Choir, and go after Archangels. From everything I've been able to gather, the *only* thing that restrains them is their own Archangel, and their dissonance conditions about punishing out of proportion to a being's crime. > and any angel who can keep his cool under questioning and not answer is > going to be completely is going to get off scot free. Hardly. Refusal to answer questions is itself a crime -- "Obstruction Of Judgement". Subjects of investigation have *no* rights, save the right to answer questions. See Sup1. >and it's perfectly in their rights to not dignify a peon's questioning with a > response unless they have evidence Actually, it's not. > and Dominic won't personally bring a case > forward until he's sure he'll win. It is dissonant for any servitor of Judgement to ignore what he thinks is heresy in an angel. This dissonance condition includes their Archangel. Dominic will not *sentence* unless he's sure of guilt, and prefers not to hold a trial without probable cause. But he will *investigate* on suspicion alone, and send his Servitors to do likewise. And refusal to answer questions only makes him *sure* that somebody's hiding something. > The Warhawks by it's nature is a society that operates both in plain sight > and both fully in the shadows and fully out in the open. By using > intermediaries and maintaining scape-goats who know nothing they are able to > function without ever being investigated by the Divine Inquisition ... until somebody pops a 1-1-1 while questioning some poor scapegoat, and thus gets a glimpse of the greater Truth that even the subject didn't know -- i.e., that something bigger than just this local matter is going on. (Even if it doesn't give them the whole scope of the plot... which it almost certainly won't... the mere knowledge that *something* bigger exists *at all* is enough to keep Judgement looking for it till they either find it or Armageddon, whichever comes first.) > and anyone who is investigated doesn't know enough about it to implicate others. > If this is unbelievable then you obviously miss the reason why Dominic has > thus yet far been unable to get sufficent evidence to form a full picture of > the warhawks activities. > > Members of Judgement are members. > > Seriously. Who watches the Watchers? Dominic himself. Every single person in a responsible position in Judgement undergoes regular and *frequent* interviews with their Archangel... who asks them the same kinds of questions that the triads ask every angel they investigate, only worse. > The best way to run a corrupt district > is to make sure the guy in IA who runs the investigations is on the payroll. Which is why one of the questions Dominic routinely asks everybody in a key position in Judgement is "Are you having any mental reservations about your work?" (As well as "Are you carrying any dissonance? Any Discord?" etc, etc.) (And you can believe that those people are asking the same question to all of *their* subordinates, or at least the Seraphim are.) And unless you're another Superior, you *cannot* lie to Dominic. You can't even stop him from getting a 6 on the check digit any time he wants to. And you can't just not answer, either, because every Seraph in existence knows that when somebody doesn't want to answer the question, that means he's got something he doesn't want to risk the Seraphic resonance picking up. Heck, in order for Judgement servitors to let somebody walk on something they know their Archangel would object to, they have to pick up dissonance -- "thou shalt not ignore heresy" is a dissonance condition, right? Dominic's attunements let him smell dissonance a mile away. And Discord, too. > In this case Dominic is surounded by similarly aged servitors who feel he's > either incompetant, too harsh, or too forgiving. This requires going severely non-canon to do. In canon, Dominic makes darn sure to resonate everything around him very frequently so as to avoid precisely this potential difficulty. > How many Judgement Seraphim looked at Dominic with hisses in their voices > when he turned the first of their Choir onto Trial? [snip examples of how Judgement servitors might allegedly be pissed] In addition to the difficulties listed above, you apparently forgot that every servitor of Judgement knows what it's like to live with a dissonance condition that *won't let* you pass up something you believe to be heretical... and also knows about the dissonance condition about them from punishing out of proportion to a being's guilt, and from punishing the innocent at all. Servitors of other Archangels only know about such academically, and many of them don't believe it (especially not after getting hassled by the cops). But Judgement servitors *live* it. And they know that their Archangel has the same dissonance conditions they are. Even Novalis' most iffy servitors cannot imagine their Archangel being unnecessarily violent. None of Michael's, even they themselves have got Cowardice/6 (and how *that* happened, I wanna know!) can ever imagine the Firstborn running away scared from a fight. Not even the most dissonant servitor of Stone can imagine David striking first. With that in mind, I can't really grasp the likelihood of that many Judgement servitors going around secretly thinking that the Most Just is being Unjust. I mean, you'll need a *lot* of them to cover something this big... And if they did think he was Unjust, they'd pick up dissonance for not telling him. They cannot ignore what they believe to be heresy in *any* angel... including their own Superior. I really can't grasp the idea of any of them hiding it. It's possible to have high-level traitors in the Game, because Asmodeus has no special powers to tell truth from lies. But when your Seraph Archangel personally runs you through the polygraph every week or so, how are you supposed to be working against him without him noticing pretty darn quick? [snip] > Heaven is already full of conspiracies already as Novalis/Andrephalus, > Dominic/Asmodeus, Michael/Baal, the city of Austin, and other strangeness > can attest too. The first one would require penetrating Superior ineffability to discover... even her own Servitors don't know. And those who do know can Truthfully answer that they are loyally serving their Superior and nothing else (which slides them right past the triad investigators who *won't* pry any further, as I outlined.) The second one isn't even a conspiracy... Michael's and Baal's servitors do *not* cooperate, they react as antagonistically as matter and anti-matter. , it's only the two Archangels themselves who have agreed not to fight each other until Armageddon. Given the prophecy of the Seventh Trump, Michael doesn't even need to hide that he's doing it. As for the third, those are examples of relatively low-level crime that it's possible to miss, not grand conspiracies that affect the entire shape of the War. I can believe that the first can be hidden, for a time (or if you're damn lucky, forever). But the latter? Ordinary crime can go unpunished till its too late because Judgement can't always find out in time. But when you're talking about concealing something for *millennia*, then it's a whole different ball game. > If you have the Seraph assigner of triads to cases backing you, no member > never needs be tried. > > Now think why Dominic is paranoid. > > He can't ask his servitors all their sins and just wait for them to confess > them all.....he needs to trust and conversly that leaves a hole open which > might kill him. Actually, it says right in Sup1 that Dominic *doesn't* trust his own Servitors. Asmodeus was Dominic's trusted right-hand man, before Lucifer talked him into changing his mind. Dominic himself came thaaaaaaaat close to Falling when Lucifer tempted him. You are right, Dominic *is* paranoid. Dominic doesn't even trust himself, let alone anybody else. And that's why *nobody* escapes the Seraph Resonator when Dominic is on the prowl. Not even his own servitors. *Especially* not his own servitors. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:41:05 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Phipps To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, April 28, 2001 8:50 PM Subject: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) >Well you miss the obvious answer. > >>Things like this are why "Are you working with or for any society, secret >or >>otherwise, or similar group without the knowledge of your Superior?" > >"I want to see my Superior." > >"Did you trade information to Hell?" > >"I want to see my Superior." > >"Are you working against heaven?" > >"I want to see my Superior." > >The inquisitors better have a damn good reason to be bringing in one of >Michael's best warriors and most trusted friends. When Michael arrives >Dominic can politely explain to him that they suspect the young Angel of >being part of a vast network of angels who are trying to increase the >possibility of Armageddon. > >Michael looks at Dominic then looks at this. > >"Is this true?" > >"Of course it's true. I'm a servitor of War." > >"Okay." Then Dominic suggests: "Ask him if he's collaborated with the Demons to bring this about." And Michael, confident about his own Servitor, will certainly do so. ...Then he'll personally tear the Servitor apart when he resonnates a "Yes, he is" from him. Michael may want the Apocalypse to happen, but he won't have his Troops collaborating with the Enemy to make this happen. >Then Michael takes his servitor and leaves. The problem with the >Inquisition is that it's authority is by no means absolute and any angel who >can keep his cool under questioning and not answer is going to be completely >is going to get off scot free. Worse for the prosecution of a Master or >similar angel they better have some darn good reasoning for doing it and >it's perfectly in their rights to not dignify a peon's questioning with a >response unless they have evidence and Dominic won't personally bring a case >forward until he's sure he'll win. He's been hunting down Eli for interrogation since Eli went AWOL; doesn't seem like he's waiting for a clear victory here. Besides, it's dissonant for Dominic to Overlook what he merely -feels- is Heresy. He doesn't need hard evidence to open a case, he just needs probable cause. A serious Interrogation with the use of Resonnances (with Seraphs, Elohim and Malakim) will fill in the blanks. >The Warhawks by it's nature is a society that operates both in plain sight >and both fully in the shadows and fully out in the open. By using >intermediaries and maintaining scape-goats who know nothing they are able to >function without ever being investigated by the Divine Inquisition and >anyone who is investigated doesn't know enough about it to implicate others. > >If this is unbelievable then you obviously miss the reason why Dominic has >thus yet far been unable to get sufficent evidence to form a full picture of >the warhawks activities. > >Members of Judgement are members. > >Seriously. Who watches the Watchers? The best way to run a corrupt district >is to make sure the guy in IA who runs the investigations is on the payroll. >In this case Dominic is surounded by similarly aged servitors who feel he's >either incompetant, too harsh, or too forgiving. Dominic Watches the Watchers, and he has his Malakim watch the Watchers, and he watches those self-same Malakim himself, just to make sure. And even the Watchers watch themselves. Remember, it's dissonant for a Servitor of Judgement to overlook Heresy in an Angel, or even what they -feel- is heresy in one. And you don't get much more Heretic then collaborating with Hell, or doubting God's selection of your own Superiors. Especially for the Dominicans, who know damn well their Superior got appointed "Heaven's Law Keeper" by the Big G himself, and that No-One, not Michael, Not Gabriel, possibly not Yves himself is above God's Law. >How many Judgement Seraphim looked at Dominic with hisses in their voices >when he turned the first of their Choir onto Trial? Considering the fact they consider themselves closest to God's law, The Seraphim of Judgement would probably find the idea that one of their own would violate that law disgusting, and thank God Dominic found him before he got away with it. >How Many Malakim did the same? Malakim of Flowers are none to Resonnate themselves for notes of Dishonor. A Malakim brought over by Judgement for Trial would be frowned, if not spat upon by his fellow Virtues, for having the taint of Dishonor upon him. >How many watched Dominic waste an entire 1/8th of Heaven's resources with >outcasting? Considering that the Grigoris' getting kicked out of Heaven was in part a decision of God, which Dominic only advanced, they might simply take a look at the sin of the Watchers, which was to abandon their duties as protectors of Mankind, and bred abominations instead, and agree that it was for the best after all. >How many servitors of judgement lost friends in Fire when he trialed >Gabriel? And you think Dominic didn't lose a friend in Gabriel when he had to put him on Trial? Judgement and Punishment are closely linked, after all. But Judgement has to be blind to friendships in other to serve God's law in a Just and Impartial manner. >Heaven is already full of conspiracies already as Novalis/Andrephalus, >Dominic/Asmodeus, Michael/Baal, the city of Austin, and other strangeness >can attest too. Michael and Baal? Considering those two see each other as rivals and lethal enemies, I would have to wonder what conspiracy those two might get involved in. And the Dominic/Asmodeus bit is mostly an agreement not to interfere too much with one another's duties. >If you have the Seraph assigner of triads to cases backing you, no member >never needs be tried. > >Now think why Dominic is paranoid. > >He can't ask his servitors all their sins and just wait for them to confess >them all.....he needs to trust and conversly that leaves a hole open which >might kill him. Who says he can't? He personally checks up on ALL his Servitors once a Week, as a matter of principle. If he has any personal doubts on any of them, he just has to look them in the eyes, use a perticularly powerful version of the Friend of Judgement Attunment on them, and watch them sweat and squirm until they break down and confess to whatever sins he's performed, no matter how small. >-Charlemagne >Yes...the Warhawks corrupted Judgement member is Bronwyn HA!! Bronwyn, Dominic's own conscience, corrupted!? And since he sees her day in, day out, he'd be missing that how, exactly? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:00:40 -0400 From: Ben Pollack Subject: Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) >The 'Judge Dredd' comics had the Judges being very pragmatic about it -- >whenever they hauled somebody in for questioning by their own Infallible Lie >Detector Machine, the very first question was always "Have you ever done >anything you know to have been illegal?" If the answer was "Yes" -- and if >it was "No" and the lie detector beeped, that counted as "Yes" -- they >simply wouldn't let you out of the chair until you'd listed everything you'd >done (even if it meant several days of sleep deprivation), and heaven help >you if there was anything on that list that you hadn't already been >convicted and served your time for. > >If you tried to dodge the question, or give a non-responsive answer, they'd >simply ask you over and over again until they finally got a clear "yes" or >"no". > >Sometimes, brilliance is not necessary. Just sheer, grinding, Stone-like >persistence. It's definitely hard on the ol' likeability, admitted, but >then again Judgement triads have long since been forced to stop caring about >being likeable. There is a difference, however, between being likeable and being a liability. Let us suppose, for instance, that the Angel in question is assigned to guard a hotly contested Tether. It would be Very Very Bad if the Inquisition kept him for so long that the Tether was in danger. For that matter, there are likely numerous angels out there whose duties are so important that, regardless of the potential of what they *might* be doing, their superiors want them out there doing *something*. Furthermore, as Charlemagne notes in his reply, Judgement's Authority is not absolute, after all. Also, remember that unlike in the society of Judge Dredd, where the law is pretty clearly spelled in out bureaucratese triplicate, Dominic's Triads look for Right and Wrong, not Legal and Illegal. The Will of Heaven is ineffable and the laws of Heaven are not clearly codified. What is right to some in Heaven, is not right to others, and so asking open-ended questions like "Have you ever done anything you know to be out of accordance with the Will of Heaven?" is likely, on the contrary to your argument, a *very bad* way to go about things. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:13:31 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Pollack" To: Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 9:00 PM Subject: Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) [snip] > >Sometimes, brilliance is not necessary. Just sheer, grinding, Stone-like > >persistence. It's definitely hard on the ol' likeability, admitted, but > >then again Judgement triads have long since been forced to stop caring about > >being likeable. > > There is a difference, however, between being likeable and being a liability. Let us suppose, for instance, that the Angel in question is assigned to guard a hotly > contested Tether. It would be Very Very Bad if the Inquisition kept him for so long that the Tether was in danger. Given that triads go to where the angel is and not vice versa, this is not a problem. All it means is that the Seneschal in question will have three houseguests for a while. > For that matter, there are likely numerous angels out there whose duties are so important that, > regardless of the potential of what they *might* be doing, their superiors want them out there > doing *something*. And those Superiors can send their complaints with Dominic, who will put them in the round file. Plus, of course, the triads generally go to the angel and not vice versa. When Judgement hauls you somewhere against your will you are being arrested, not merely questioned. > Furthermore, as Charlemagne notes in his reply, Judgement's Authority is not absolute, after all. See my reply to him. [snip] > What is right to some in Heaven, is not right to others, and so asking open-ended > questions like "Have you ever done anything you know to be out of accordance with > the Will of Heaven?" is likely, on the contrary to your argument, a *very bad* way > to go about things. How fortunate, then, that that wasn't the questions I was having them ask. I am well aware of the danger of open-ended questions... which is why mine *weren't*. These *were* the questions I was having them ask. "Are you working with or for any society, secret or otherwise, or similar group without the knowledge of your Superior?" "Are you working towards any long-range plans that are neither strictly personal, strictly in the service of your own Word, or assigned to your by your Superior's chain of command?" I can add on a third I just thought of... "Are you a member of any group whose existence and goals are being deliberately kept secret from Heaven at large or from Judgement?" Notice how 'right' and 'wrong' aren't even in the equation here -- merely "Does your Archangel know about what you're doing? Is it in the service of his Word? Have you joined any secret societies? If so, why are they secret?" Will this catch every conspiracy in Heaven? No. Will it catch any conspiracy that doesn't have an Archangel covering for it? Ought to, if they're large enough and have been around for enough to have made it a statistical inevitability that at least a portion of their membership will have finally had their #'s come up in the Routine Crime Sweep Lotto... - -- Chuckg Just thought of a possible alternative questioning tactic "Are you trying to hide anything from us that you wouldn't want us to know about?" (if the answer is 'Yes') "Why not? Is it merely embarassing, or would it actually get you in trouble?" (if the answer is 'Trouble') "Really? Why it would do that?" "Come now, you do realize that after having gotten this far, we simply can't stop until you 'fess up. Of course, we could let you go free now and merely put you under 24-hour surveillance, but do you really wish to go through all that trouble?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:13:46 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rolland Therrien" To: Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 8:41 PM Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) > >-Charlemagne > >Yes...the Warhawks corrupted Judgement member is Bronwyn > > HA!! Bronwyn, Dominic's own conscience, corrupted!? And since he sees her > day in, day out, he'd be missing that how, exactly? Not to mention that even if Bronwen were a traitor, she could do exactly zip and none to cover the activities of the Warhawks. Her function is to follow Dominic around and tap him on the shoulder when she thinks he's not thinking something through deeply enough. (In certain fanfics, she also helps babysit Justinian/Hammurabi/Solomon/is that kitten *ever* going to decide on what his name is?) But that's it. She makes no appointments, files no reports, conducts no investigations, and most definitely doesn't act as any kind of data filter between Dominic and the Rest of the World. If you want to *watch* Dominic, Bronwen's eyes are the best positioned to do that. But if you want to keep Dominic from knowing something, she's as in as good a position to insulate Dominic from reality as the most anonymous reliever of Creation would be. That is to say, not at all. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:26:31 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of my Inner Archangel...* > ...it needs feeding. Any recommendations for good > IN-themed books? I personally am a huge fan of non-canonical scripture myself. The truth (as opposed to the canonical "Truth") is, after all, stranger than any fiction. I'm currently working my way through "The Other Bible" (which has been recommended on this list before), a beautiful collection of all things heretical, including some of the more interesting passages from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library. Great stuff. Besides that, I'm half-way through Jonathan Spence's "God's Chinese Son: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of Hong Xiuquan" about the Chinese prophet who claimed to be the younger brother of Jesus. Definately inspiring, as this list will no doubt soon discover... Oh yeah, and eventually I'm planning to tackle all of L'Engle's stuff again, since I haven't touched any of them since Middle School. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:29:52 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> Naming the Kitten! - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Glasgow To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:19 PM Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) (In certain fanfics, she also helps >babysit Justinian/Hammurabi/Solomon/is that kitten *ever* going to decide on >what his name is?) I, personally, vote for Hammurabi as a final name for the Kitten. Anyone else want to cast their vote for one of the selected names? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:34:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! From: "Rolland Therrien" > > I, personally, vote for Hammurabi as a final name for the Kitten. Anyone > else want to cast their vote for one of the selected names? The kitten is going to keep the name Crater in my stories, just so you know... ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:34:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! From: "Rolland Therrien" > > I, personally, vote for Hammurabi as a final name for the Kitten. Anyone > else want to cast their vote for one of the selected names? The kitten is going to keep the name Crater in my stories, just so you know... ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:40:46 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! > I, personally, vote for Hammurabi as a final name for the Kitten. Anyone > else want to cast their vote for one of the selected names? I cast an anti-vote. Whatever it ends up as, I hope it's *not* Justinian, because while he did codify and unify Roman law (a major step forward) he wasn't really a very Just guy. How's about Solomon? Nice Biblical feel to it. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 02:43:48 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! I like all of the names suggested, but I think Solomon fits the best. Janet Anderson P.S. Since all these kitten stories are non-canon, does it really matter if different writers use different names? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:39:45 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) From: "Charles Glasgow" > Seriously. Who watches the Watchers? <> I agree completely. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:43:44 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) From: "Rolland Therrien" <> They meet each other for tea semi-regularly. I'm serious, it's in Superiors 1. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:48:03 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of my Inner Archangel...* At 3:42 PM -0700 4/28/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >...it needs feeding. Any recommendations for good >IN-themed books? The Book of Enoch. I can't emphasize this enough. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:59:36 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) At 9:41 PM -0400 4/28/01, Rolland Therrien wrote: >Michael and Baal? Considering those two see each other as rivals and lethal >enemies, I would have to wonder what conspiracy those two might get involved >in. Michael and Baal are known in Canon to have an almost friendly mutual respect for one another, and to occasionally get together and talk. They have also agreed *not* to fight before The Final Battle. They'd be on the top list for "willing to conspire with one another," not the bottom list. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:01:19 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Naming the Kitten! At 2:43 AM -0400 4/29/01, Janet Anderson wrote: >I like all of the names suggested, but I think Solomon fits the best. He hasn't appeared in any of my fanfic, but if he does, he'll be named "Kitten." Dominic is a Judge. And a Seraph. He has enough trouble finding True names for Angels he creates, thank you. If he mentions "Kitten," you can be certain everyone around him will know who he means. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:07:38 -0400 From: Ben Pollack Subject: Re:Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) >The 'Judge Dredd' comics had the Judges being very pragmatic about it -- >whenever they hauled somebody in for questioning by their own Infallible Lie >Detector Machine, the very first question was always "Have you ever done >anything you know to have been illegal?" If the answer was "Yes" -- and if >it was "No" and the lie detector beeped, that counted as "Yes" -- they >simply wouldn't let you out of the chair until you'd listed everything you'd >done (even if it meant several days of sleep deprivation), and heaven help >you if there was anything on that list that you hadn't already been >convicted and served your time for. > >If you tried to dodge the question, or give a non-responsive answer, they'd >simply ask you over and over again until they finally got a clear "yes" or >"no". > >Sometimes, brilliance is not necessary. Just sheer, grinding, Stone-like >persistence. It's definitely hard on the ol' likeability, admitted, but >then again Judgement triads have long since been forced to stop caring about >being likeable. There is a difference, however, between being likeable and being a liability. Let us suppose, for instance, that the Angel in question is assigned to guard a hotly contested Tether. It would be Very Very Bad if the Inquisition kept him for so long that the Tether was in danger. For that matter, there are likely numerous angels out there whose duties are so important that, regardless of the potential of what they *might* be doing, their superiors want them out there doing *something*. Furthermore, as Charlemagne notes in his reply, Judgement's Authority is not absolute, after all. Also, remember that unlike in the society of Judge Dredd, where the law is pretty clearly spelled in out bureaucratese triplicate, Dominic's Triads look for Right and Wrong, not Legal and Illegal. The Will of Heaven is ineffable and the laws of Heaven are not clearly codified. What is right to some in Heaven, is not right to others, and so asking open-ended questions like "Have you ever done anything you know to be out of accordance with the Will of Heaven?" is likely, on the contrary to your argument, a *very bad* way to go about things. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2188 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.