From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 30 16:30:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00924 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:30:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA01638 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:37:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:37:59 -0500 Message-Id: <200104302137.QAA01638@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2193 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2193 In this digest: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> What "roving" Judgement Triads do all day... Re: IN> Word-bound angels of cities Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> Re: Tips for Judgement Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) Re: IN> Authority of judgement IN> In Cineme Re: IN> Kyriotates of Lightning Re: IN> Wind Malakim way to cause Judgement pain Re: IN> Note delivered to Dominic Re: IN> Wind Malakim way to cause Judgement pain Re: IN> A plot problem Re: IN> Re: Tips for Judgement Re: IN> Authority of judgement Re: IN> Kyriotate Word-bound Angels of cities Re: IN> Let's get back to the kitten Re: IN> Authority of judgement Re: IN> Re: Tips for Judgement Re: IN> Authority of judgement Re: IN> Rules on Resisting Re: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Surreal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:28:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) At 8:40 PM -0500 4/28/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >I really can't grasp the idea of any of them hiding it. It's possible to >have high-level traitors in the Game, because Asmodeus has no special powers >to tell truth from lies. Actually, check out his Distinctions. And make very, very sure that you are telling him the literal truth when you tell him anything. It's in the cracks that the lies can hide, but not to his face, not unless you're a very skilled Balseraph and probably not even then. Of course, just because they're traitors doesn't mean that Azzie will eliminate them then and there. He might just wait to see who will be smoked out along with them; who will ally with them and who will run to report the traitor to him... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:28:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What "roving" Judgement Triads do all day... At 11:57 AM -0500 4/29/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >Thinking upon this, I note that question #5 alone should eventually trip up >every secret society member in Heaven..[...] > you'd better hope that the Seraph gets lower than 4 on his check >digit. Which will only happen half the time. Further, remember the Seraph Choir Attunement for Judgment. That adds Celestial Forces to the Perception for resonance use. And then there's the check digit bonuses from the main book, if the GM uses those -- a +1 for "close" distance, a +2 for touching. (Does anyone remember Jordan, from the Fiat Justitia game? He's not a starting character, no, but his Perception is 10; his CelForces are 5, there's a +3 to check digit right _there_. Or go for Zadoc, from S1; IIRC, she's got Per 8, CelForces 4. That's a 12 target number... I can't imagine that there would be many Seraphim of Judgment with only 3 or fewer CelForces, personally. It's just not efficient, and why wouldn't Dominic min-max his own Servitors...? O:> (okay, okay, celestial combat might bend one out of optimum....)) >Judgement follows the same principle as the Code Napoleon -- you are guilty >until proven innocent, not vice versa! (Fortunately, merely being able to >say "I am not guilty" and having the Truth of your statement confirmed by >the Symphony is considered sufficient proof. That's about the only thing >that keeps the Heavenly Inquisition from being a worse horror than the >Earthly one was.) Yup. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:30:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Word-bound angels of cities At 12:22 AM -0400 4/30/01, Janet Anderson wrote: >I am under the impression that there is an Angel of Cities in canon. If so, >what is this angel's name, Choir, and Superior? I have assumed the Superior >was David, but I want to be sure. Mercurian, IIRC, of Stone. (www.incyclopedia.org might help here...) >Secondly, would any Word-bound angel of a particular city (New York, >Philadelphia, etc.) therefore have the Angel of Cities as immediate superior >and David (or whoever it turns out to be) as Superior? Not necessarily, though it might be common. At the least, their relationship with the Angel of Cities is one that should be explored, and it would be unlikely for the Seraphim Council to bind someone to a city-Word who wasn't on speaking terms with Cities. Or so I'd say if I had to pronounce canon on that, which hasn't really been necessary. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:32:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) At 8:46 PM -0400 4/28/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >response unless they have evidence and Dominic won't personally bring a case >forward until he's sure he'll win. If it's big enough, with a bad enough result if he _doesn't_ expose it, he'll bring the case forward and Expose The Truth So He Can Render Judgment. He's the Archangel of Judgment, not the Archangel of Prosecution. He's also in the war party, but hey. >Seriously. Who watches the Watchers? The Monitors, a bunch of elite Malakim of Judgment who are absolutely, totally, undisputedly loyal. Dominic makes sure to ask them that every week, no doubt, paranoid snake that he is. >How many Judgement Seraphim looked at Dominic with hisses in their voices >when he turned the first of their Choir onto Trial? >How Many Malakim did the same? And how many of them could hide their dissatisfaction from him, when Dominic has the Elohite resonance, the Malakite resonance, and the Mercurian resonance to play with as well as his own? How many could avoid having him ask why they were angry with him? >If you have the Seraph assigner of triads to cases backing you, no member >never needs be tried. The assigner of triads to cases probably _is_ Dominic, at least part of the time. >He can't ask his servitors all their sins and just wait for them to confess >them all..... Sure he can; he's got an Archangel-sized version of his Friend Distinction. He doesn't have to _ask_ people anything; he just _looks_ at them. (I mean, I haven't even read the warhawks thing, 'cause it was long, but I gotta point out that if you want Dominic not to be involved, you gotta do more than assume people can _hide_ things from him.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:14:06 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Tips for Judgement >Moe > >*Excuse me: ANTHROPOMORPHIC PERSONIFICATION. :) > >**Hmm... I misremember if the Grigori Word-bound got >their Words taken away. Interesting... The judgment was Outcasting, and Outcast angels retain their Words. An extra clause to strip them of Words might be possible, but such clauses would have to be in individual cases, since at least one Watcher is still referred to as the Archangel of Song. William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:12:13 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: Tips for Judgement (was Re: IN> Secret Conspiracy for In Nomine) >At 8:40 PM -0500 4/28/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >I really can't grasp the idea of any of them hiding it. It's >possible >to have high-level traitors in the Game, because Asmodeus >has no special >powers to tell truth from lies. > >Actually, check out his Distinctions. Whoops. *blush* - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:15:52 -0400 From: "Krishnaswami, Neel" Subject: Re: IN> Authority of judgement Chuckg wrote: > > > Note that since sowing chaos and breaking rules are what angels of > > the Wind are *for*, > > Note that being poetic, funny, long-winded, and evasive only works > to win your release if the questioners are willing to let you go out > of sheer frustrated impatience... which Dominic's servitors usually > aren't. Er, I had hoped it was clear that the angel absolutely meant every word it said. Poetic and funny, I tried for -- I like characters who aren't grim and serious when speaking the truth. But it was not an evasion. (They don't work, not with Seraphim and Elohim around!) Reread what I wrote -- I was careful to leave God out of the list of superiors that would be upset, and the angel carefully explained that it had acted illegally but not shamefully (ie, not in a way that it felt even the slightest guilt about), and that it was keeping its illegality secret precisely for the moral health of its questioners, even explaining the moral reasoning it had used so that the Triad could point out any flaws in its logic. Since every bit of this testimony was given with a Seraph in witness, a bad reaction -- such as treating its explanation as an evasion -- would reveal the beam in the Triad members' own eyes rather than the mote in the Windy's. Note that I'm operating under the assumption that Triads take accusations against themselves seriously; in a dark game that might not be true but default IN requires angels of Judgement to watch themselves as vigorously as they watch others. > I mean, imagine the astounding lack of success tactics such as these > would give you vs. mortal law enforcers. Who have greatly less > mental and physical endurance than servitors of Judgement. If an angel of the Wind honestly believes that keeping a secret is good for the angels doing the Inquisition, it has to do its level best to keep the secret, because to do otherwise means that it is permitting fear of authority to supercede charity as its motivation for action.[*] Does this mean an angel of the Wind can lose its Role, its Vessel, be made Outcast, or possibly even get soul-killed as a precautionary measure? Of course; it's certainly possible to get yourself into a position where both speech and silence are evidence of different crimes. No one said serving the Wind was *easy* -- actions carry consequences, even for the bringers of divine chaos. For consolation, there is simply this: He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. That is: it got to remind people that there is Someone stranger and stronger than all there is. [*] Lack of charity was one of the two main crimes that angels of Judgement investigated IMC, along with lack of compassion. Even killing a demon could be a criminal act, if the angel did not love its enemy. > This is also why, if I were on that Triad, Angels of the Wind would > learn to either answer questions quickly and to the point or else > clear out *large* blocks of time on their appointment calendars, > 'cause I'd keep 'em sitting in that chair until they started risking > hitting their dissonance condition. Restraining the angel I hypothesized would merely confirm for it that the Triad have gotten themselves into a desperate philosophical fix and need immediate help. They don't have a monopoly on virtue and it's catastrophically bad for their souls if they assume that they do. Therefore, it would take the dissonance, on the theory that watching an angel turn into a puddle of Discord rather than betray a sacred trust to its torturers may shake the Triad out of their moral complacency. Failing to make an attempt to help them -- for example, answering their questions even if it thinks they should not be asked -- is sinful and violates the high traditions of Heaven. > If a particularly smart-mouthed respondent wants to turn the > exercise into an endurance contest, I can see no reason why > Judgement wouldn't oblige them until even a Cherub of Stone started > asking for a rest break... letting anybody actually *succeed* with > this kind of tactic would be setting a very bad precedent. Trying to fit the Divine Inquisition into the mold of modern police is a poor idea, IMO. The tools of ordinary police work don't work, since neither fear, reward nor social conformity are the primary motivations for most angels -- most angels can spend centuries doing dangerous charity work for no pay and without seeing another angel, and yet be in no danger of becoming dissonance or even going native. And they don't even need to be police: they can simply need show up and let others make accusations, and then they can hear the truth or falsity of the claim and pass judgement. A 5 celestial force Seraph with a 12 Perception can *always* get a check digit of 6, and you can be sure that Dominic has at least a few of them on hand. And these are the extreme cases -- IME most of the time even PC angels simply turn themselves in upon realizing they've done something wrong. (Most turn themselves into their Superior, but it's reasonable that an archangel would call in Dominic to decide really tough cases.) Hm. I wonder if Dominic ever assigns Triads to find out the good things various angels are doing, so that they can be rewarded. Archangels like Eli, Janus or Gabriel are kind of forgetful in that regard, and it would be unjust if the rest of Heaven forgot their Servitors' contributions. That would make a cool in-character reward for a Judgement PC, actually -- they get to take part in a Court of Honor. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:18:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> In Cineme The IN material often talks about playing the game "cinematically," but when it does so, it seems to mean playing the celestials as if they were (mortal) action-adventure heroes. There's another way to play IN cinematically, and that's to play the celestials like movie-celestials. This requires only a few changes, though they're rather basic: The 11th Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Get Caught." Cinematic celestials appear and disappear freely, and hang around the corporeal plane indefinitely, unlike canonical IN celestials. But they don't often blink or fade in and out. Rather, their pressence or absence is surprisingly discovered by a mortal viewpoint character. For "In Cineme," this means a similar lack of time limit for being celestial on the Corporeal Plane, and that going celestial causes no disturbance *UNLESS* the transition is observed by a mortal who is not Symphonically aware. Numinous Paraphernalia Cinematic celestials never have to worry about clean and appropriate costuming, or life's handy little props. This is a new Corporeal Song that lets the celestial control the style and cleanliness of its costume, alter hairstyles to suit, and produce minor props like combs, pens, and screwdrivers. It does not extend to creating money or conventional weaponry. The Dossier Attunement Cinematic celestials (notably the angel in "The Bishop's Wife" and in "Highway to Heaven") seemed to know everyone's first name and sometimes other important information. This cinematic attunement supplies such information and is handed out freely. All Mercurians and Impudites might have it. Anyone with a Cherub- or Djinn-like attunement might be able to use it to know the number of the phone nearest their attuned. The Gift of Tongues Cinematic celestials can read and converse in any mortal language. The Surreal Discord Exactly as described recently on this list by David Streeter. It is, in "In Cineme," a very common discord, especially among less experienced celestials and demons. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:00:13 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Lightning > That is a definite risk. But I can't make role-playing diamonds outta clay, > and neither can I force myself to run a mindless all-action game. It's just > not *in* me. Hey, I certainly don't blame you. I can't stand that sort of thing as an entire game. There's no /drama/ no reason to give a damn about the characters, to emotionally invest in the game world and not just their characters. > Not that I don't have an aesthetic appreciation for a well-designed and > played munchkin machine, mind you. Some of my prior characters, in this and > other RPG's, have been little more than hyper-efficient machines for > converting die rolls into inflicted damage. But even *they* had engaging > personalities, if not genuine intellect. And although hammering things is > really fun, my gun bunnies don't see the entire world as nails. Why can't > theirs do the same? I can't believe that it's impossible to do, I've > already done the proof-of-concept showing that it can. Hrm . . . I'm guessing the don't go in for "chick flicks" much either, tee hee hee Seriously, though, have them watch "Split Second," it's an Action film that has In Nomine -esque themes, yet the film has Heart, too. But not too much to scare off guys who can't deal with the romantic feelings. > >theywill feel they have been railroaded in to that sitch with no way out of > >it, and in part there are right to think that. > > > >Then if they do ever play any rp with you as GM/ST/WhatEver again they will > >be shoot first, dont bother to ask questions later type players. > > Seems to be a catch-22. If I throw them nothing but random demons to use as > chew toys, they'll never learn how to do anything else but shoot. Yet if I > toss them straight into a Maximum Role-Playing and Use Yer 'Effin Brain > Already, Awright situation... they'll never learn how to anything else but > shoot? > > OK, now I'm stumped. Dude, you gotta meet them half-way, man. Have lots and lots of shoot them up stuff, and be sure to include very obvious plot stuff that will help them to be better able to *choose* their fights, *choose* the battle-grounds, etc . . . and hopefully, with enough evidence, they can come to see ways of manipulating their enemies and try to do so. I dunno. > >or even worse... > > > >"so your michael huh? yeah right" pulls gun, shoots > >"yes you silly thing, i created you and now i unmake you, i scatter your > >forces to the symphonie once more" much scattering done. > > The solution to this is to simply have Michael exercise a bit more temper > control, as in... > > > "What did you do *that* for?" > > > > "Medic, take this guy to my best Elohite psychiatrist and have them figure > out what kind of shell shock is warping his brain." (Of course Michael > keeps psychiatrists on-staff... to treat the post-traumatic stress disorder > cases, if nothing else.) > > Baal, OTOH -- now he's the guy who scatters your Forces eight ways from the > origin just 'cause you plinked him one. Uh, yeah, have to agree with this one. Micheal would probably take pause, Ba'al'll just waste ya. "Make a new character." > >:player: what did i do now? > > "Take on the undefeated heavyweight champion of the Symphony with a frontal > assault? Of *course* it's going to hurt. What'd you expect?" > > >i thought it might have been satan again > > "Even if you *did* think it was Satan, what you were expecting a .45 to do > to him, make him laugh? In case you slept through the briefing, the proper > response to suddenly being in the presence of Lucifer or any Demon Prince is > 'Invoke Your Superior At Once'. > > Of course, yours was already there, but hey -- at least the Invocation > would've *told* you that." > > Fortunately for my sanity, I don't think the players I got are quite *that* > dumb. If they were, I'd give up right now. > > >man... aww gimme a break, my charecter didnt think it was him, even though > >we were in heaven, in the war camp, he thought it was all an illusion by > >lucifer fre crying out loud. > > Trying to avoid this is one of the many reasons I'm having Lucifer > deliberately play at the handicap of "No Resonance, no songs, no nuttin' but > a simple Fast-Talk roll". If he were Resonating them, that'd just be too > damn much... I might as well send them into a steel cage death-match with > Baal holding an atom bomb. > > As is, Lucifer will do the *set-up*... and then it's up to them to make the > choice, entirely of their own free will. > > And even if they make the wrong choice, they can still recover... all they > have to do is figure out that Eli is being framed, and then Find The > Evidence That Proves His Innocence, before Dominic bangs down the final > gavel in the proceedings. Hey, a dramatic race for time to get the evidence > to the courtroom... that's a classic plot, why shouldn't it work? > > > I'm serious about the movie "Split Second" have them watch it. Dunno, if nothing else, it's a cool movie. - -Perry, KFc perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "A person's character is his destiny." - --fortune cookie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:33:52 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Re: IN> Wind Malakim way to cause Judgement pain A funny answer for the Malakim And the next question would be "Why did you take an oath not to reveal that information?" "I cannot reveal any information to judgement unless I endanger the cause of Heaven with it as a form of protest against the Archangel of Judgement until said Archangel makes an Apology to Gabriel. I've cleared it with Janus." And if in this case it IS seriously true... - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:56:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Note delivered to Dominic At 12:43 AM -0500 4/30/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >Given that Solomon is never out of the sensing rage of at *least* two >Masters of Law (Dominic himself & Bronwen), and that kidnapping is a crime, >I fail to see how any 'serious' scenario could have the kitten kidnapped at >all. What "serious" campaign _has_ the kitten at all? Really now, let's not be _reasonable_ about it. Indeed, Let's Just Not Get Into A Big Nasty Unfun Discussion About It At All. The kitten is fluffy, in plot as well as fur; anything done with it for a fluffy scenerio need only be as reasonable as a GM desires. Poking holes in a fluffy plot only gets cat fur all over your fingers. So watch out for scratching your nose afterwards. Cat fur clings like nothing mundane. - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:39:35 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Wind Malakim way to cause Judgement pain From: "Charles Phipps" > A funny answer for the Malakim > > And the next question would be "Why did you take an oath not to reveal that > information?" > > "I cannot reveal any information to judgement unless I endanger the cause of > Heaven with it as a form of protest against the Archangel of Judgement until > said Archangel makes an Apology to Gabriel. I've cleared it with Janus." > > And if in this case it IS seriously true... Then the angel will have an appointment scheduled with angels higher up in the heirarchy of Judgment, and given the chance to recommend another servitor of Wind to complete the delivery it is no longer at liberty to complete itself. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:03:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A plot problem At 12:58 PM -0400 4/30/01, Janet Anderson wrote: >I have this Cherub of Stone who's going on an airplane trip and doesn't want >to be separated from his brass knuckles -- and they'll set off the metal >detector and are (I believe) illegal. Yes, he could send them through his >luggage, but he wants them to hand (as it were) in case he needs them. > >Suggestions? 1: Have a Kyriotate of Lightning possess the metal detector and not beep. 2: Get the Summonable enchantment stuck on them. 3: Have a Kyrio of any sort possess a security guard who has permission to go behind the metal detector, and pass the brass knuckles through that way. Make sure no one sees the possessed guard doing this. 4: Swallow them and insist that it's a metal pin in the hip. 5: Um... I can't think of any more. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Pedersen Subject: Re: IN> Re: Tips for Judgement - --- Charles Glasgow wrote: > > Frankly, I'm mildly surprised that nobody's > actually > > told me to shut _up_ by now. :) [snip] >I would > venture to say that there > are people who have subscribed to this list largely, > if not entirely, just > for the purpose of hearing whatever you come up with > next! Like, for example, me. Not that there hasn't been lots of other cool stuff by other people, but it was reading Moe's posts in the online digests that convinced me that I had to subscribe, just to get his stuff regular... > -- > Chuckg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:48:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Authority of judgement Krishnaswami, Neel wrote: > Er, I had hoped it was clear that the angel absolutely meant every > word it said. From you past posts, I was sure it did. > Reread what I wrote -- I was careful to leave God out of the list of > superiors that would be upset, and the angel carefully explained that > it had acted illegally but not shamefully (ie, not in a way that it > felt even the slightest guilt about), and that it was keeping its > illegality secret precisely for the moral health of its questioners, > even explaining the moral reasoning it had used so that the Triad > could point out any flaws in its logic. The moral health of its inquisitors did not come through to me. Yes, it said they would get upset, but it didn't say that it was keeping the secret for their own good. If it had said, point-blank, "I can't tell you because it would harm you," that would give them pause, I think. So would, "I can't tell you because my Archangel told me not to tell anyone, and I'm sure that includes you." The latter response is likely to elevate the whole issue quickly, though maybe not quickly enough for the Windy's taste. ("Here, let's settle this now. Let's see, I've stolen all your wallets so that ought to pump up my chance of invoking Janus...") Earl > > Since every bit of this testimony was given with a Seraph in witness, > a bad reaction -- such as treating its explanation as an evasion -- > would reveal the beam in the Triad members' own eyes rather than the > mote in the Windy's. > > Note that I'm operating under the assumption that Triads take > accusations against themselves seriously; in a dark game that might > not be true but default IN requires angels of Judgement to watch > themselves as vigorously as they watch others. > > > I mean, imagine the astounding lack of success tactics such as these > > would give you vs. mortal law enforcers. Who have greatly less > > mental and physical endurance than servitors of Judgement. > > If an angel of the Wind honestly believes that keeping a secret is > good for the angels doing the Inquisition, it has to do its level best > to keep the secret, because to do otherwise means that it is > permitting fear of authority to supercede charity as its motivation > for action.[*] > > Does this mean an angel of the Wind can lose its Role, its Vessel, be > made Outcast, or possibly even get soul-killed as a precautionary > measure? Of course; it's certainly possible to get yourself into a > position where both speech and silence are evidence of different > crimes. No one said serving the Wind was *easy* -- actions carry > consequences, even for the bringers of divine chaos. For consolation, > there is simply this: > > He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the > clouds shall not reap. As thou knowest not what is the way of the > spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with > child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. > > That is: it got to remind people that there is Someone stranger and > stronger than all there is. > > [*] Lack of charity was one of the two main crimes that angels of > Judgement investigated IMC, along with lack of compassion. Even > killing a demon could be a criminal act, if the angel did not love > its enemy. > > > This is also why, if I were on that Triad, Angels of the Wind would > > learn to either answer questions quickly and to the point or else > > clear out *large* blocks of time on their appointment calendars, > > 'cause I'd keep 'em sitting in that chair until they started risking > > hitting their dissonance condition. > > Restraining the angel I hypothesized would merely confirm for it that > the Triad have gotten themselves into a desperate philosophical fix > and need immediate help. They don't have a monopoly on virtue and it's > catastrophically bad for their souls if they assume that they do. > Therefore, it would take the dissonance, on the theory that watching > an angel turn into a puddle of Discord rather than betray a sacred > trust to its torturers may shake the Triad out of their moral > complacency. > > Failing to make an attempt to help them -- for example, answering > their questions even if it thinks they should not be asked -- is > sinful and violates the high traditions of Heaven. > > > If a particularly smart-mouthed respondent wants to turn the > > exercise into an endurance contest, I can see no reason why > > Judgement wouldn't oblige them until even a Cherub of Stone started > > asking for a rest break... letting anybody actually *succeed* with > > this kind of tactic would be setting a very bad precedent. > > Trying to fit the Divine Inquisition into the mold of modern police is > a poor idea, IMO. The tools of ordinary police work don't work, since > neither fear, reward nor social conformity are the primary motivations > for most angels -- most angels can spend centuries doing dangerous > charity work for no pay and without seeing another angel, and yet be > in no danger of becoming dissonance or even going native. > > And they don't even need to be police: they can simply need show up > and let others make accusations, and then they can hear the truth or > falsity of the claim and pass judgement. A 5 celestial force Seraph > with a 12 Perception can *always* get a check digit of 6, and you can > be sure that Dominic has at least a few of them on hand. And these are > the extreme cases -- IME most of the time even PC angels simply turn > themselves in upon realizing they've done something wrong. (Most > turn themselves into their Superior, but it's reasonable that an > archangel would call in Dominic to decide really tough cases.) > > Hm. I wonder if Dominic ever assigns Triads to find out the good > things various angels are doing, so that they can be rewarded. > Archangels like Eli, Janus or Gabriel are kind of forgetful in that > regard, and it would be unjust if the rest of Heaven forgot their > Servitors' contributions. That would make a cool in-character reward > for a Judgement PC, actually -- they get to take part in a Court of > Honor. :) > > -- > Neel Krishnaswami > neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:17:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate Word-bound Angels of cities At 8:45 AM -0700 4/30/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >Oh, right, the question: how do the rest of you handle >this sort of thing (presuming that any of you actually >have one IYC)? The obvious answer ("Hi, Hellspawn. >I'm Bill, and I can jump into anyone, anywhere, as >long as I stay in Brooklyn. You're all about to die, >by the way, unless you can run really, really fast") >has an equally-obvious problem. If the Kyriotate is constantly possessing the WHOLE CITY, then you've got problems for demons. I doubt that even a Word-bound Kyrio can manage that, or at least not to the degree that it can spot any demon anywhere. Think of a dog with fleas -- can it spot every little flea, or just the ones that bite? And even then, when it goes to scratch, does it _always_ nail the hopping little bugs? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:07:04 -0700 From: "Phillip" Subject: Re: IN> Let's get back to the kitten > Wandering still further afield, does Dominic's description > make anyone else think of Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, from > the Fafrd and Grey Mouser tales of Fritz Leiber? In but three words: Oh But Yes. Actually, it was the first comment I ever made about him when my friend showed me the book for the first time. Phillip, Angel of Reinventing The Wheel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:32:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Authority of judgement At 3:11 PM -0400 4/30/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >>"Now, I really must depart -- this little briefcase full of drug money >>is just dying to be introduced to this arms merchant I met in Istanbul. >>Ta!" So the Cherub attunes and comes back later. No biggie. That's what the Cherub of Judgment attunement is _for_, after all. Now, if the Windy breaks the attunement somehow, later, that will be cause for a much less easy-going triad to show up. At 3:55 PM -0400 4/30/01, Marc Bowden wrote: >("It's reeeeeal hard to look all suave and macho with two malakim >kneeling on your wings.") ROFL! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:33:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Tips for Judgement At 4:14 PM -0400 4/30/01, William J. Keith wrote: >>Moe >> >>*Excuse me: ANTHROPOMORPHIC PERSONIFICATION. :) >> >>**Hmm... I misremember if the Grigori Word-bound got >>their Words taken away. Interesting... > >The judgment was Outcasting, and Outcast angels retain their Words. An >extra clause to strip them of Words might be possible, but such clauses >would have to be in individual cases, since at least one Watcher is still >referred to as the Archangel of Song. If Word-stripping happened at all, it was certainly not en masse. - --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor (arcangel@io.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:42:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Authority of judgement At 4:15 PM -0400 4/30/01, Krishnaswami, Neel wrote: >Note that I'm operating under the assumption that Triads take >accusations against themselves seriously; in a dark game that might >not be true but default IN requires angels of Judgement to watch >themselves as vigorously as they watch others. Just taking an accusation against oneself seriously doesn't mean they wouldn't continue to (via non-fatal, hopefully, methods) inquisit the subject. They _would_, however, turn themselves in to the next Tether, or when contacted by their Archangel. But, honestly, no matter what the Windy thinks, failing to answer the questions in a way that allows the Seraph to sigh in relief and say, "Nah, this one's just being a smart-aleck and thinks our minds need more fresh air let in"... Is not going to make the triad let him go. Make them haul him in to the nearest Tether, maybe. Make them follow him around for a week (till Dominic turns up), quite likely. (No dissonant Windy (so no unjust punishment if it turns out he's just being obnoxious), no dissonant triad (for ignoring what might be heresy).) (See, a triad doesn't _have_ to sit down with someone recalcitrant for hours and days and months. They just have to have at least one of their number follow the angel around for a week, max. The presence of the triad (or triad member) means that the suspect has very little chance of doing anything irreversible; the presence-to-come of the Archangel of Judgment means that All Will Be Settled. I'm sure that some subjects of inquiry will 'fess up after a while, just to avoid being LOOKED at...) >Hm. I wonder if Dominic ever assigns Triads to find out the good >things various angels are doing, so that they can be rewarded. >Archangels like Eli, Janus or Gabriel are kind of forgetful in that >regard, and it would be unjust if the rest of Heaven forgot their >Servitors' contributions. That would make a cool in-character reward >for a Judgement PC, actually -- they get to take part in a Court of >Honor. :) Nifty, indeed. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:55:06 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Rules on Resisting - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Lee" To: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:51 AM Subject: IN> Rules on Resisting > I am unable to find the section directly dealing with generic rules on > resisting attacks and such in the core rules book, yet I find references to > resisting throughout the book. I know that it is mostly on a case-by-case > basis, but there seems to be some basic procedure out there that perpetually > eludes me. Can someone please help me by giving me the official rules on > resisting? Thanks a lot! Yeah, the core rules fail me there, too. > Quite besides the point, what's with the flaming of White Wolf? Is there > some kind of rivalry between White Wolf and SJG fans? I happen to play > White Wolf games myself... Flaming of White Wolf? maybe some mockery, but . . . yeah. I imagine that there's some rivalry, yes. - -Perry. Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. " - --Dick Cavett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:07:34 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: New Discord: Surreal > I *like* the Surreal discord. > > One could add footprints to the list for the non-humanoid types > -- ophanim, kyriotates, and shedim don't leave any, seraphim and > balseraphs leave sidewinder marks, djinn and cherubim leave > footprints according to their celestial form. > > Malakim and Mercurians could occasionally molt stray wing feathers, > despite their wings being unmanifest. > > Earl I *also* like this Discord, if only because I feel that it adds the kind of cinematic effects that would be appropriate for angels and demons as so often depicted in the In Nomine art. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/llloyd.geo "Be careful what you pretend to be because you are what you pretend to be. " - --Kurt Vonnegut ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2193 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.