From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jul 9 22:35:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19281 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:35:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA24020 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:35:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:35:04 -0500 Message-Id: <200107100335.WAA24020@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2293 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, July 9 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2293 In this digest: Re: IN> In LARP Re: IN> DP of Extinctions Re: IN> DP of Extinctions Re: IN> DP of Extinctions Re: IN> In LARP Re: IN> DP of Extinctions IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 IN> Furfur, Demon Prince of Destruction IN> How to seduce your Superior IN> Mormons Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Religion in Hell Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Religion in Hell Re: IN> How to seduce your Archangel/demon prince Re: IN> Religion in Hell IN> Re: Wear Fire Retardent IN> Screamers (nope, not that at all) RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:49:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> In LARP - --- Alex Liddell wrote: > The University Roleplaying club called AMERICA > (association of middle earth > roleplayers and individual character assimilation) has > grabbed me and beaten > an In Nomine Live game out of me... Poor sod. Hope you survive. 0;> > I have an idea. > I have a plan. > I wouldn't mind a little input though. try searching for "In Nomine LARP" -- there's an active INLARP running in Austin, TX with game mechanics posted on their website. I've been to a couple of games; it's not quite on target, but it's close. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> DP of Extinctions - --- Jeffery Watkins wrote: > Hi all, > > Another question from a newbie, Shouldn't there be a DP > or Demon of > Extinctions? There have been several species in the last > 100 years and many > on the brink now that might keep that Word-bound in > power. Extinctions would be a powerful Word under Saminga. It's probably held by a Baron or higher. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 15:02:43 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> DP of Extinctions Jeffery Watkins wrote: > > Hi all, > > Another question from a newbie, Shouldn't there be a DP or Demon of > Extinctions? There have been several species in the last 100 years and many > on the brink now that might keep that Word-bound in power. > > Comments? Thoughts? > There probably is a Demon (not Prince) of Extinctions, perhaps a Calabite or Shedite of Saminga. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:06:57 +1200 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> DP of Extinctions > > Another question from a newbie, Shouldn't there be a DP or Demon of > > Extinctions? There have been several species in the last 100 years and >many > > on the brink now that might keep that Word-bound in power. He probably doesn't exist because of Saminga himself. That paranoid moron would jump all over someone who he thought was usurping the power of his Word. Extinctions are such a grand event, like Genocide that perhaps the Prince would rather deal with that himself. Otherwise. Write the sucker up! Alex _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:19:41 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> In LARP Alex, >The University Roleplaying club called AMERICA (association of middle >earth roleplayers and individual character assimilation) has grabbed me >and beaten an In Nomine Live game out of me... > >I have an idea. >I have a plan. >I wouldn't mind a little input though. > >The idea is simple. Keep the mechanics to a minimum and the amount of >knowledge needed down as much as possible. Things like Disturbance and >used as a GM tool and not for the players to worry about. Essence will be >used, but as Jellybeans (spend a point, eat a JB). Each player has a >Resonance and one other ability (attunement or song) and a sheet of >information about themselves so they don't get lost while in the game. I have written more than six different In Nomine LARPS for conventions. You are right to keep it simple. Mechanics can be a real problem. I tend to use a flash card system, use a resonance or attunement on someone show them the card, let them read it. If anyone else notices, they have just noticed a disturbance in the symphony. How much they notice determines how much of a disturbance they were aware of and what else they learn. Area effect resonance and attunments etc I simply remove, they do not work easily in LARP. Songs I handle differently, being cruel and vindictive a make players sing them, loudly.... This works pretty well, but as things stand there are certain In Nomine abilities which are harder to replicate and some are simply impossible without breaking the flow of the game which I am loathed to do. Those abilities I simply remove. >The plan is quite complex but fun none the less. > >There is a Demon called Terridian (PC) who wishes to become the Demon >Prince of Hopelessness. He is already the Demon of Lost Hope and a Duke >of Fate. >He worked hard and got The Lightbringer's attention and asked him on the >spot for the Princedom. Lucifer, being crafty decided to have a >trial. But not a normal one. He told Terridian he would summon all the >Demons he has had signifigant dealings with over his life and get them to >vote on whether or not he should become a Prince. Of course Lucifer is >giving Terridian the chance to bend their perceptions before the final >vote is cast. > >Lucifer hasn't told Terridian that all of the Demons are Superiors who are >playing down their Superior status at the request of the Morning >Star. They are interested in seeing how Terridian plays the game. How he >manouveres around each Word and twists the Truth to his ends. Asmodeus is >most interested in the about-to-be-Superior/Cat food. > >At the end of the night, the vote will be cast in private and the result >made public. If the vote goes against Terridian then all the Superiors >reveal their true selves and decide to take offense at the things >Terridian has said to them throughout the night. Kronos especially. If >it goes in Terridian's favour he is crowned a Prince but Lucifer decides >to make Terridian fully aware of Hopelessness. He strips him of all his >Essence and Charms his Will away. He then has all of the Superiors >"Reveal" their True natures. And they are all Archangels. If Terridian >looses all Hope then he is sweet and joins the Hierachy. If he balks them >and tries to get out of it he is clinging to the thing he most wants to >rub out and gets destroyed. > >So..... that is the story. I'm running it with another person who will >adjudicate the various challenges and so on. > >What does everyone think? Er, the PC's are Archangels? Do you not mean Demon Princes. I cannot see Archangels doing this sort of thing at the behest of the Lightbringer. Assuming I am right, there is a real problem here. The PC Terridian is central to the action but blind. The other PC's are secondary to the action and hold all the aces. DP'as are not likely to be happy being second fiddle to an upstart even if told to sdo so by the Lightbringer. Apart from which some DP's may want to make use of this upstart for their own ends and even to want to find ways of revealing what is really going on. The word is Hopelessness. Some DP's might not feel inclined to support this word, others will be. Lilith springs to mind as one who may be opposed, Hoplessness jars badly with Freedom. It might also jar with the Game, I mean just how far will the Game get if the Games operatives are suddenly feeling all their work is hopeless. The Media and even Dark Humour might have serious worries as could many others depending on how they see the word Hopelessness. No hope of a good meal... No hope of a bit of fun in the sack.... and so forth. Hopelessness in the victims or lackeys is of course a different matter, the word is double edged and makes for some interesting decisions on the part of many a DP. Kronos of course is a special case, he is unlikely to be amused at all. From experience you might be better to let the DP's be more open about what they are and let the upstart try to convince them of the power of his word and why he is worthy of it. They still get to vote at the end of the day, and throughout the game poor Terridian will have to deal with the internal politics of hell. Who hates whom, who wants to bring down whom, where the allegances are etc. And, if he can show that the politics is Hopeless then even if the DP's decide to reject his status the Lightbringer might intervene. In the meantine the various DP's can be attempting to stitch up each other, making offers to Terridian, side deals and everything else that could go on. You may find this makes for a more balanced game where everyone has an opportunity to influence the outcome. Your proposal could well be driven by the action of one player with the others as no more than final arbiters without much more to do until that time. In my experience this is likely to present serious problems within the game. Apart from the In Nomine LARPS I have written I have written many more LARPS, mostly freeform. I my experience LARP works best when all players can be involved in all aspects of the game, and all have an opportunity of shaping the outcome. Setting one character up as the central driving force is rarely a good idea. Just my thoughts and experience, not a criticism. Whatever you do, good luck with it, and if you need further help or ideas I'm happy to do what I can to assist you. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:39:54 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> DP of Extinctions >Another question from a newbie, Shouldn't there be a DP or Demon of >Extinctions? There have been several species in the last 100 years and >many on the brink now that might keep that Word-bound in power. Goes with Saminga, like War Crimes, Genocide. Would be a servitor of Saminga - a powerful one. Though at the same time the ultimate extinction would be humanity and that would render the whole war pointless so such a demon may need to be restricted in some way. Absolutely hated by Jordi and Novalis is another certainty. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:48:46 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 I had an idea for adapting the World of Darkness and In Nomine into the same game but unfortunately as we know the inherent difficulties of two seperate sets of rules (GURPS alone has acomplished it perfectly) and two very different styles of rules have always kept me from achieving my goal of combining the two settings. No Longer. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on what I manage to make of the game and of course suggestions for altering it. I'm fairly sure I want to run a WoD/In Nomine game which I think will come off very well to my players whom I'm trying to branch off of their White Wolf fixation to something alittle more spiritual. Rules: In Nomine to WoD Angels in the World of Darkness rules are exceptionally powerful individuals with terrifying abilities that shake the very foundations of the planet from the highest levels on down. Unfortunately the Celestials of the Heavens and Hells while considerably more "tough" than the average being must contend with the fact that the planet changes at extremely rapid paces and unlike in a standard In Nomine game...while powerful angels and demons are so rare in numbers that they routinely can be overwhelmed and destroyed by the great number of supernaturals which exist in the planet that they war over. Physical Attributes: The similarlity of physical attributes in In Nomine to the WoD allow for fairly easy conversion number and stat wise with in some cases direct conversion apropriate. Strength> Strength Agility> See below * Intelligence> Intelligence Precision> See Below * Will> Willpower Perception> Perception * Agility and Precision should be added up together in conversion rules to determine how many "dice" the character wishes to split between dexterity and wits. The slight difference between agility/precision and dexterity makes all the difference in characters who wish to be clever and those who wish to be artistic. Vessel and Social Attributes: For the purposes of In Nomine to standard WoD rules a angel is believed to start out at a "straight" charisma, manipulation, and appearence of 2. This represents that the "average" celestial despite his divine origin is fairly nodescript in his mannerisms and training for interaction with mortals. A Charisma bonus in vessel means that for every point they have they gain "specialized" training that allows them to "stand out" among humans and act in a way that is pleasing....this means that they're appearence, manipulation, and charisma all go up by an appropriate ammount due to the special efforts of their Superiors on their behalf. Like it or not angels/demons cannot alter their fundemental natures to be more charismatic to humans because as a part from the grigori no angel or demon truly undertsnads how a human mind works and can only extrapoliate. Those who buy sex appeal are solely raising appearence and to a lesser extent manipulation with every two dots equalling two in appearence and one in manipulation. Skills to Skills: Skills transfer seemlessly with every point in a skill equalling a point in the appropriate dot. Angels with skills of level 6 simply possess an intimate familiarity with a subject that simply cannot be equalled in a mere human lifetime (though soldiers of course have been known to trancend such boundaries). Angels with 0 in a skill can use their often exceptionally high attributes to "fake their way" through something even skilled humans would have difficulty with (such as defusing a bomb) but ST's should recognize celestial inexperience and play up it as often as possible (The Prophecy's Archangel Gabriel and driving anyone?). Songs: Songs are the most difficult to translate and effectively are best summed up with the adage "they are extensions of an Angel's essence and nature manifested into the word through concentration and will, bending the symphony to their will". Which basically means Songs work like they do in In Nomine causing the same amount of disturbance, cost in essence, etc. Essence: The Essence score of an angel is directly analogous to his number of forces at the beginning of play and is his "permanent" essence score. Essence is very similar to willpower in that points can be spent to give automatic sucesses but there is no limit to how much an angel can spend in any given round but how much he has on it. Angels still regain essence at dawn/dusk and from rites which is exactly the same for In Nomine. Willpower: Once an angel's willpower score is established he must pick a permanent nature and demeanor which will often relate to his choir, willpower can be spent on actions like essence but far less frugally. To accentuate the horrors of darkness and the real possibility of falling in In Nomine: The Struggle I recommend adopting an entirely new rule for flavor called "Demon Nature" (see below) Nature/Demeanor: These represent real temptations of God and the Devil to Demons and should be roleplayed out by talented players or by STs who are helping players who do not wish to handle such a double load. In effect these "unconcious natures" manifest whenevr a angel/demon finds his innate good/evil at odds with his nature....God/Devil/Jimminy Cricket will thus speak to them to do something against himself and tempt them indeed. Resonances: Effectively like a werewolves Crinos form or vampire's spending blood these need no adaption and work as described. Attunements: Ditto for these Dissonance to Derangements: While dissonance should be noted there is a distinct analogue between insanity and temptation and it is recommended that a ST play up for every point of dissonance an equal point of derangement even in physical dissonance (obsession with the feature is a good point), these things are maddening signs of their weakness after all. In Nomine: The Struggle God isn't dead, he just doesn't care - -The Nephilim, Prophecy 3 The theme for In nomine in the WoD is that the Earth is far different from the realm of other In Nomine games in that is choked full of humans that are blessed/cursed with knowledge of greater mysteries than themselves but for the most part those with true glimpses into the other world do not take hope and enjoyment in what they find but instead despair and devote themselves to creating fictious truths. Evil is clearly winning in the realm of In Nomine: the Struggle but Demons are not in control of the situation anymore but mostly following in the coattails of the universe's downward spiral and that scares more than a few of even the Demon Princes. Heaven for all of it's grand power is unable to seemingly break the tides of horror that keep emerging from the Marches and Mankind's own soiled past as the curses of vampirism and magick lead some to believe that God himself has ordained Heaven's defeat and oblivion. It is a bitter pill to swallow indeed when even the Lords of the Cosmos must fear their creations. And Lucifer laughs but is in triumph or awareness of a defeat even he could not change? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:33:39 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Furfur, Demon Prince of Destruction [This is GREAT! I love this version of Fufur much better than the DP of Hardcore. Very useful in a game.] I've always felt on some level that Fufur had gotten the shaft concept wise. The idea of a Rock and Roll Sid Vicious version of Satan was no more silly than the Doctor Frankenstein antics of Vapula or Monty Haul's lets make a deal Nybbas but Fufur had some serious probelms in... A:) Few people seemed to truly GET Hardcore. Unlike The War or Belial whose words instally conjure up the dreaded terror of Hell and possibly interesting "Anti-hero" works (The War might be just, Dark Humor might be played as a wise guy rather than a malicious killer, and so on) Hardcore just seems...there. A word like Destruction however incarnates I think the spirit of Fufur much better....he is wild, passionate, and in a mad frenzy against the world and Hell but sometimes you need to tear things down to build something new. B:) Quite frankly his attunements sucked Aside from Calabim's resonance going up majorly when loud music is playing I don't remember anything of Fufur's abilities. Fufur as the Demon Prince of Hardcore or Destruction should have been given something which while shows his lesser nature as a prince still plays up the fact he knows the modern world and is intelligent enough to have gotten a princeship. C:) His relations made no sense Pardon me for saying this but while I recognize Lilith made Fufur what he is one would think the bugger would appeal to some other Princes. Nybbas certainly I can't imagine ever letting Fufur live down it was HIM who made him Prince and the relationship between destruction/incition to violence is very prevalent. Haagenti and Fufur seem destined to be bossom buddies with their excesses. Saminga I recall wasn't always so fond of Belial and a new violent prince seems to me would appeal to him As it stands there was no real chance Fufur could beat Belial so I wanted to even the playing field. - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:50:26 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> How to seduce your Superior Asmodeus: "Hey Hey! I'm supposed to be the manipulator here! To the Dungeons with you *wink wink*." Dominic: "uhhhhhh.....errrrr......will this negatively impact your performance?" Laurence: Somehow I see Laurence completely oblivious to all the attention he gets or bemused and already completely devoted to the Virgin Mary/Bladine some mortal chick he fell for as a Malakim. The forbidden fruit of mortals...dum dum dum....mayhaps he's covering for something himself long ago? I never really got why he forbid his servitors from courting mortals and even saints Michael: I'm not sure Michael is right on this one....after all the Spartans....he may believe strong bonds may encourage better fighting skills. In WW1 it was common in Germany to recreuit units from the same classes so people would defend better.... it's cruel as hell but Michael is fighting a war. Lilith: I'm not sure if she's not completely a tease...after all she dumped Adam, what chance do you have? Now here's some other thoughts.... Valefor: Probably has a fondness for virgins and those who have a fondness for the same (professional curteousy to Catwoman and Amanda after all) Nybbas: Probably in Geeky bliss at the thought.... Vapula(na): Probably easy but...errr...I'm not so sure you'd like it. Is Vapula a boy or a girl/it? What? Marc: To be perfectly crass I imagine it's not that difficult....just find a bedroom tasteful enough for him. Jean: Hmmm? Pardon? Baal: I think baal's probably very fond of his servitors...the Nazis always have beutiful mistresses in movies. He must hate the angel agents stealing them away... (Dang you James Bond/Michael!) - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:03:05 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Mormons Well I actually asked this question some time ago.... *warning serious discussion ahead* The Mormon Church has an extensive and fascinating history with the United States as a holy land and their long trek to their present day capital of Salt Lake City. Certainly presently they're religeon is one of the cleanest most sanctified family groups that exist out there though as history will show this is not always the case. I think In Nomine cannon (correct me if I'm wrong about this) was hesitant to tackle the Mormon church because it was such a radical change to Mayan/South American/Native culture and there is little historical evidence thus far to back it up while many are also unfamilar with the mormon variant. Also there is deep controversy over whether or not the original Mormon leadership for all the good results was corrupt from the beginning..... Some people as I understand (mild zing) have strong feelings on polygamy after all and quite understandly even in the Mormon Community there is a tendancy to view their founder with a jaundiced and corrupt eye for the liberties he took. Officially however there are some loopholes for this other than doing one of these three... 1:) The Angel Moroni was a servitor of Destiny who chose to formalize a religeon of Yves that the Old Man was hesitant to use synthesizing many aspects of Islam, old style Judaism, and Christianity by stealing the book containing it's notes and distributing them to the Prophet he chose. (though privately Yves may have ordered it) In effect the religeon like Islam and Christianity falls under some ineffable truths with some controversy and is on the same footing as the other religeons. 2:) In a highly ironic and slighty dark In Nomine it may be that the Church of Moroni was the attempt of Diabolicals to create a mockery religeon but which backfired horribly on Kobal when David took pity on them. 3:) It's an entirely mortal institution with the Angel Moroni if he existed merely a manifestation of prophetly powers or Joseph Smith's mind. The loopholes are below.... 1:) Moroni is being investigated by Dominic quite heavily because he has an "ineffability" about him along with joseph smith that makes investigation very difficult.... It is quite possible that the Mormons are the result of Actions by the Grigori Archangel of Song and/or Death. or an Angel of the Lord from the higher heavens making the fellows a new Chosen one or any other possibility which deeply disturbs Dominic and of which eh's definatly trying to find the roots of. - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:50:17 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Religion in Hell Besides, I imagine a Hellchurch would either be a >>little too forgiving ("Come now, it's natural to sin; why be so ashamed it >>happened?" kind of thing) or if Habbalah-run the churchgoers would probably >>continually be beaten with their unworthiness to the point of being told >>they were not remotely pure enough to even beg forgiveness, both of which >>might inhibit such escapes even if it exists IYC. >> >>-- >>Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net I like the idea of both existing, plus numerous Satan-worship churches and false versions claiming to be the "real" form of the divine religions... just not the divine religions themselves, which for some reason tend to die quickly, or at best be continually in hunted, underground existence. The *ethereal* ones, though, yes! While divine religions are probably almost universally reviled in Hell, the Ethereals might have made a deal to have a few worshippers sending Essence... as long as it doesn't make a real dent in Hell's take. Certainly Habbalah would be good for religions whose point is to "purify" their believers, mortifying their souls with punishment and pain, Essence sacrificed daily. Shedim would probably be pretty good at leading Satan-worship congregations, while Balseraphs could lead the false versions of divine religions. Concerning Superiors, Andre and Nybbas would quite possibly be trying out various versions of their planned religion on souls in their realm (*plenty* of sex-cults around Andre's place), and Tartarus is likely to have an underground (actually, officially tolerated, but they like to *think* they're underground) that reveres Vapula. A number of Alaemon's groups are pseudo-religious, and drug-using societies could exist among Fleurity's bunch. In fact, any Demon Prince probably tolerates at least one cult of personality in his Principality. Oooh, there's a dark thought. Yves has started a few religions in his time. Why wouldn't Kronos have gotten in on the act? I'm not talking about Anton LaVey, oh no... a much more sinister religion. A quiet one. One that tries to be as infernal as the divine ones are divine. Open-eyed human beings trying consciously to embrace their Fate and get the rest of the world to do so as well. ... I'm thinking nasty thoughts I want to stop thinking now. You take them. William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:02:18 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: IN> Religion in Hell "William J. Keith" wrote: > Oooh, there's a dark thought. Yves has started a few religions in his > time. Why wouldn't Kronos have gotten in on the act? I'm not talking > about Anton LaVey, oh no... a much more sinister religion. A quiet one. > One that tries to be as infernal as the divine ones are divine. Open-eyed > human beings trying consciously to embrace their Fate and get the rest of > the world to do so as well. > > ... > Are you thinking of something that exists in the real world here, or something purely fictional? - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:00:38 -0700 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> How to seduce your Archangel/demon prince Asmodeus? Yeah, right.<<< I'm not so sure. Asmodeus is a Djinn, and most Djinn have a deep-seated need to be loved and cared for. A very smart Lilim might be able to get close to the Prince of the Game. Bonus points if she's a Free and she can snag a Geas. Secrets, Theft, and Dark Humor would likely all be vying to sign her on, with Distinctions. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 18:02:34 -0700 From: Charles E Smith Subject: Re: IN> Religion in Hell >Come to think of it, can't Demon Princes create full-grown demons and skip >the demonling step altogether? It's possible most Habbalah are created that >way when needed; why go through all the trouble of "training" a demonling >for a particular role when you can get what you want in the first place >without that? Of course, some demonlings might go nuts or be "treated" by >Habbalah in the Prince's service to become Habbalah as well, but I think >counting on demonlings as a source of Habbalah is unlikely (I know Vapula's >writeup suggests he at least was born fully formed). This might not hold >with a Habbalite DP, of course, where the demonlings in the DP's service >are brought up with the "truth" as a matter of course and so would be more >likely to buy into the Habbalah mindset.<<< I would think that the Demon Princes, particularly Asmodeus and Baal, would be against any hell-born Gremlin or Imp choosing to fledge Habbalite. After all, they think they're angels. What's to stop them (or the Habbalite Princes for that matter), from one day deciding that God has revised their mission and ordered them to work with Heaven for better results? ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:41:15 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Wear Fire Retardent > From: "Charles Phipps" > Subject: IN> Wear Fire-Retardent > > LILIM AND BALSERAPHS OF THE CLASS OF 97..... You evil, evil man! Well done! I'm sending copies to all of players. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:32:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Screamers (nope, not that at all) I'm back. Moe Screamers It all started, innocuously enough, with the Halls of Progress. You'd be surprised how often it all starts with the Halls of Progress, actually: even before the Archangel of Creation's little walkabout, that Cathedral was known for producing some very interesting changes to the social dynamic. Now that Lightning has been assigned some of the more exuberant of Eli's Orphans, well... But we're getting ahead of ourselves. As stated earlier, the entire thing started with Jean and his Recreation and Diversion division. They had been tooling about with... I detect surprise. I can't really see why: of course Jean has a division dedicated to the design and creation of toys. The utility of play in fostering healthy physical, mental and emotional exercise has long since been demonstrated to any objective observer: Jean would be seriously remiss in his duties if he were to ignore any area where his Word would be a benefit to either Heaven or the corporeal plane. Besides, objectively speaking, it is much more sensible to not permit Vapula to do all the work in this field, no? Now, if I may continue... Thank you. As I was saying, Jean's Recreation and Diversion division had come up with what they thought would be a killer application. Using a couple of scientific laws that humanity should discover about 54.576 years from now, one particular team had developed a new type of ground-effect vehicle. Utterly silent, capable of approximately 800 mph, height ceiling of about a mile and a half ... and utterly disdainful of anything so pedestrian as 'inertia'. These things were fun - and, better, safe (a side effect of the inertialess drive). Needless to say, said team had made up a few of them to play with. Now, considering the odd physical laws in Heaven, they could do this without ever leaving the Halls of Progress: Jean's got one open area 'inside' that's roughly the size, of well, Delaware. Cubed. Perfectly secure, right? Alas, there's a rule: never wave a personal vehicle capable of breaking Mach 1 in front of a Servitor of Creation's nose. Or in front of a Servitor of the Wind, actually. Now that I think about it, don't do that to any Ofanite, either. And, if you've done the above to an Ofanite of Creation IST the Wind, you might as well just hand over the keys and be done with it. The Breakout was a scandal to the jaybirds: Jean doesn't really mind when his Servitors occasionally hoist a few beers from time to time, but sneaking in three kegs is strictly forbidden. Considering that said kegs made the idea of taking a fleet of supersonic Inertia Screamers and buzzing the Seraphim Council chambers seem a really cool idea, this is probably wise. Nobody got hurt, of course: this is Heaven. Still, the embarrassment to Lightning was severe ... especially when Jean couldn't confiscate all of the Screamers in time. Not all of Eli's Orphans work for him, you understand. Yes, I'm afraid so: hundreds of thousands of angels and blessed souls looked upon these devices, and found them good. The first homemade Screamers took to the ... well, sky ... barely a week later. Right now, it's the latest craze. Interestingly enough, the Powers That Be aren't actually too upset about this: they've seen it before (there was one century where you couldn't see the sky for the flying carpets), and again, this is Heaven. Nobody's going to get hurt, after all. Besides, the blessed things only worked on the celestial plane. The Council simply brushed off the old traffic regulations from the aforementioned flying carpet episode and delegated the War Faction to organize the inevitable drag races and aerial jousts. Everything's maintaining an even strain. Now, of course, what Heaven has Hell imitates, immediately. Vapula, after he finished kicking himself, started doing his own version of Screamers: unlike the Other Side, Hell was quite pleased when a pack of Magpies managed to steal a few. This way, artificers that weren't incurably insane would reverse-engineer them. Once they started making their own (and once both sides started making versions that would work in the ethereal plane), things started getting odd. Bearing in mind that Hell doesn't have any restrictions against violent activities, it is amazing how similar Divine and Infernal Screamers are. Both versions look like an abstract sculpture of a motorcycle, done in quicksilver and bronze. Up to two people can comfortably sit on a Screamer (although the contortions are a bit odd for those with non-humanoid celestial forms): larger versions are fairly uncommon, but known. The latest Divine Screamers are faster (Mach 4-equivalent, as opposed to the Mach 2.5 which is Hell's current speed record), but Infernal Screamers are armed and armored. Heaven is experimenting with a military Screamer for ethereal use, but it'll be a while before they get the bugs out. This affects tactics in the Marches, of course. Heaven's Screaming Angel Squadrons (Windies, Laurencians and Michaelines to a celestial) specialize in quick lightning raids, relying on superior speed and shock value to disrupt demonic communications and campaigns. Opposing them is the Just Hell's Brigades (mostly Baalites and Magpies) who try to force engagements where their superior firepower and armor can be most effective. So far, neither side has been able to seize the initiative: whether this is due to the fact that neither side has many ethereal-capable Screamers, or just because that both Beleth and Blandine are actively opposing increased Screamer operations in the Marches, is up to the GM. Divine Screamer - Speed: Mach 4-equivalent (or, 'really bloody fast'). Carrying capacity: 2 angels with a bunch of really cool hand ranged weapons that can do ethereal damage. Protection 10, Hits 48: every 8 hits done to the vehicle reduces the Protection by 1. Both types of Screamers regenerate 6 hits per day on their own, if not completely destroyed. Requires a Driving roll to operate ... and the normal Driving skill won't cut it, here. Infernal Screamer - Speed: Mach 2.5-equivalent (or, 'not quite as fast, but he'll still be able to get a couple of shots in before you zoom away'). Carrying capacity: 1 demon with a lot of grenades. Protection 15, Hits 75: see above for ablative properties of armor and regenerative tendencies. Mounts a Really Big Gun (Power 12, Accuracy 2, Range line of sight) that does ethereal damage, and a couple of Rockets (Power 16, Accuracy -1 [damned Vaputech], Range Line of Sight) that does celestial damage. Requires a Driving (Screamer) roll at -2 to operate, -4 if firing weapons. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 21:33:52 -0600 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 << I had an idea for adapting the World of Darkness and In Nomine into the same game but unfortunately as we know the inherent difficulties of two seperate sets of rules (GURPS alone has acomplished it perfectly) and two very different styles of rules have always kept me from achieving my goal of combining the two settings. >> I think there's a lot bigger conceptual jumps to be made than just the rules. IN Storyteller rules would actually be fairly easy to cobble together; seeing as though I dislike the canon IN system mildly and *loathe* GURPs, I've thought about running IN using Storyteller, Champions and a few other systems. It's work, sure, but it's not _really hard_ to do. Your biggest hurdle with come in combining the settings, not the rules. There's another IN/WoD conversion here: http://www.umr.edu/~river/angel/angel.html I like how they did the Attributes and Forces on this one, actually. << I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on what I manage to make of the game and of course suggestions for altering it. I'm fairly sure I want to run a WoD/In Nomine game which I think will come off very well to my players whom I'm trying to branch off of their White Wolf fixation... >> First question: do you actually _respect_ the WoD games? I'm not trying to be patronizing by asking, but generally whenever WW stuff is brought up on this list, it seems to be treated with contempt. I'm a WoD player first and foremost, though I'm into and enjoy IN. If I was introduced to IN through a WoD crossover, however, and the angels and their metaphysics trod all over everything else, chances are I'd hate the game -- strongly. If I had one piece of advice to give for a WoD/IN crossover, it would be "don't trash the WoD." The same warning applies equally to IN, of course, but with people from this list, that seems less likely. << ...to something a little more spiritual. >> IN is more spiritual than the WoD? The game certainly has it's strong points, but I've never seen it's treatment of spirituality as one of them, particulairly in contrast to Werewolf or Wraith. << Angels in the World of Darkness rules are exceptionally powerful individuals with terrifying abilities that shake the very foundations of the planet from >> This is *so* not the way to begin a crossover, IMO. I understand your reasoning, here; in mythology angels are indeed terrifyingly powerful entities. But very little of that aspect seems to have transferred over into canon IN, so why put it into WoD-IN? There's a bunch of good reasons not to. First of all, in the WoD game culture, there's already a "my supernatural is bigger than your supernatural" mentality WRT crossovers. It's not particulairly mature or inductive of good games, but it is present. Bringing in angels and demons, making them /more/ powerful than they are in their own games and treating the other WoD races as insignificant in relation to them is a sure way to get your players to dismiss IN as a huge flaming ball of munchkin cheese. It's what I'd do if I was introduced to the game in this manner, and it's the reason that many Vampire players revile Mage to this day. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ There's a large number of setting/metaphysical/thematic issues you'll have to rule on to mesh the two settings. Let me bring up a few, along with my own suggestions: * The tone of the WoD, and the way it treats greater metaphysical forces like Superiors and Incarna, is very different from IN. I would suggest making the Superiors more distant, and severely limiting their ability to manifest on the Corporeal plane. Greater entities running around on Earth is very counter to the style of the WoD. When Superiors do manifest, they should be awesome, majestic and _serious_, to increase the chances of your players taking them seriously. I'd make both sides' Superiors more inhuman and less anthropomorphized. * The Realms/the Umbra. I'd stay with the main WoD cosmology mostly. The Middle Umbra of Werewolf is the home of Etherials. The Shadow- lands are the home of wraiths. Celestials probably would need very rare, special attunements to get at these. * Heavan and Hell would be in the High Umbra, the Astral Plane, as described in the _Book of Worlds_ for Mage. The Higher Heavans would be an aspect of the Deep Umbra. This has the advantage of making vampires and mages the supernaturals that would end up interacting with Celestials the most, and they are also the supernaturals that most fit a Judeo-Christian paradigm. * Blandine and Beleth tap into the Dreaming (of _Changeling_), but they are tampering with something they dont' really understand fully. The Dream Walking attunement would function a lot like the Dream-Riding cantrip (Dream-Craft 3, as described in Dreams and Nightmares). * "Etherials" would be what Celestials call the spirits of Werewolf and Mage. The WoD is a /lot/ friendlier, cosmologically speaking, toward pagan religions than IN is. Chances are that God pulled Uriel back to the Higher Heavans mid-Purity Crusade because he did not want the Malakite to get his ass handed to him by Gaia's spirits and defenders, especially when (in IN-WoD) God and Gaia are likely different perspectives on the same being, or at least forces that are loosely allied. The August Personage of Jade would be a third aspect of the divine in IN/WoD. * Lilith shows up in both games. There's a lot of common ground: in both, she's a powerful feminine principle, the first magician and a proponent of freedom. In IN, she's the patron of the Lilim and the being responsible for freeing the demons from Hell. In the WoD, she's the first mage, the first Verbena, and patron of a group in the Sabbat, the Bahari. None of this really conflicts: in IN-WoD, Lilith would be an Awakened human mage who has a Word (Freedom), created the Lilim from raw Forces with true magick and patronizes her Daughters, the Bahari and the Verbena. In the WoD, Lilith is a semi-mythical figure whom no one has ever seen, and is known of only through scripture, like Caine. This would likely have to be thrown out to accomidate IN. On the other hand, WoD Lilith is much buffer than a IN Superior; she probably stands around Lucifer's level, and deals with him as an equal. Chances are she didn't need Lucifer's help to become a Superior-level being; she did it all by herself. Whether she's an Oracle, a Demon Princess or both is really immaterial: as the book says, she's Lilith, unique and exquisite -- and not easily categorized. * You'd have to decide how true magick interacts with the Symphony. Actually, the two Metaphysics interact really well: like a demon, every mage has his own personal Symphony, his paradigm, that he imposes on *the* Symphony to change it. Unlike a demon, a mage's Symphony doesn't have to be inherantly selfish; it's just his ultimate exercize of human Free Will. Be careful not to slant whatever explanation you come up with too far towards Celestials (mages are just deluded mortals who think they can tamper with the Symphony, but they are wrong...) or mages (Celestials are just spirits that embody the Celestial Chorus' paradigm; their "Symphony" exists only in their minds). * If you do link the Symphony and magick, you get some really interesting consequences. Chances are that mages can hear Symphonic Disturbances with Awareness, and make such disturbances when they use vulgar magick. Also, it's possible that Paradox spirits would show up to punish anyone who disturbs the Symphony, whether mage or angel. There are a bunch of other interesting points of intersection between the worlds, but I'll leave this here with these. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2293 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.