in_nomine-digest Friday, November 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2466 In this digest: IN> Leilani pt 2 Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Leilani pt 1 Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> The Angel of Thorns Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Wish List IN> Re: #2462 (veering OT) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Demon: the Fallen (was Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462) IN> Re: Demon: the Fallen (almost OT) IN> Humanity and Religion in In Nomine IN> What's essence good for? Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 02:09:35 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: IN> Leilani pt 2 (continued from part 1) Dissonance Conditions Angels of the Heavens gain dissonance for revealing too much information. For those angels who still focus on divination and human destiny, this means that a person's destiny cannot be directly revealed. For example, an angel of the Heavens cannot tell a mortal, "You will meet the love of your life tomorrow," but rather is encouraged to say something like "There is love in the air for you. Try to keep an open mind and heart." GM's call in this area, but bottom line is that if it negates the human's free will, then the angel gains dissonance. For those angels with her newer attunements and who work in space, angels of the Heavens gain dissonance for revealing information about the space sciences and about what they have learned in space without the permission of Leilani and Jean. Choir Attunements Cherubim (partially restricted): When returning to the corporeal plane, a Cherubim of the Heavens may choose to manifest in celestial form beside an object or person he has attuned to. This is particularly useful for Leilani's explorers, who often attune to rocks and other tokens on different planets in order to facilitate their return. Other Choirs may take this attunement, but require the use of the Celestial Song of Attraction or some other means of attunement to make use of its effect. Ofanim (restricted): When in space, an Ofanite of the Heavens in celestial form travels in thousands of kilometers instead of miles (see IN, p 97). Servitor Attunements Mysterious Ways This attunement is the basis for interstellar travel in celestial form. For a minimum cost of 1 Essence, the angel may move as much as (Celestial Forces x Essence spent) light- years in any direction, arriving instantaneously by a means unclear to any angel less than a Superior. This causes Symphonic disturbance equal to twice the angel's total Forces at both endpoints of the angel's path. Only beings with celestial forms, unfettered by mortal flesh, may make use of this attunement. While Mysterious Ways is not required of all angels of the Heavens, a significant portion of them do receive it from Leilani -- it makes their job easier, after all. Nova An angel with this attunement can create a spectacular burst of light that dazzles any onlookers for up to the angel's Celestial Forces in minutes. This burst of light causes anyone in the vicinity to become temporarily blind (corporeally, ethereally, and celestially). Celestials may avoid its effects by making a Will roll at a penalty equal to the angel's Celestial Forces. This includes other celestials on the angel's side, although the angel's allies and companions suffer no penalty to their Will roll. Other angels with the Nova attunement are immune to its effects. This attunement costs 2 Essence to activate. Captain's Log Leilani's explorers are often tasked with covering vast regions of space. Those with the Captain's Log attunement may share memories with each other. This requires the expenditure of 1 Essence from each angel and physical contact, either in celestial form or in a vessel. They both choose which memories to share. Distinctions Vassal of the Dream of Space A Vassal of the Dream of Space is intimately connected with the systems on whatever vessel he or she is currently traveling in. He or she may choose one in particular to be aware of, and will be alerted to a breakdown in that system (Celestial Forces) minutes before it actually happens. Friend of the Infinite Void A Friend of the Infinite Void is also intimately connected with his ship's systems, but is aware of all of them, not just one. Master of the Interstellar Depths A Master of the Interstellar Depths is able to communicate with his ship as though it were a living being. The ship becomes more responsive to his commands, although he must still be in a position to give such orders (not being at the helm will not force the ship to change course, etc., etc.) Archaic Distinctions As with her Choir attunements, Leilani's Distinctions have been revised. These are no longer given out, and are being replaced by their equivalent new Distinctions. Vassal of the Heavens On a successful Perception roll, a Friend of the Heavens can gain insight into a person's destiny, but not his fate. Treat the clarity of his vision as being less than that granted by Yves's Divine Destiny attunement. However, a Vassal of the Heavens receives these visions only through a medium -- astrological charts, Tarot cards, and the like...never on direct sight. Friend of Divination A Friend of Divination gains insight not just into a person's destiny, but his fate as well, but with the same restrictions as with the Vassal of the Heavens Distinction. Master of the Future A Master of the Future sees both destiny and fate, but with perfect clarity. He must still obey the same restrictions on his vision, however. Rites: - - Watch a show set in space (Star Trek, Babylon 5, and the like, although a Discovery Channel special will also suffice) - - Teach someone to identify a constellation. - - Slay a demon of the Stars. (+2 Essence, +3 if the demon is soul-killed) Archaic Rites: - - Teach someone to divine the future through an astrological chart. - - Write a daily horoscope. Expanded Rites: - - Construct a telescope. - - Create a star map. - - Ride a space shuttle. Relations: Allied: Laurence, Jean (Laurence and Jean are allied with Leilani) Associated: Janus, Yves (Dominic, Janus, Marc and Yves consider themselves associated with Leilani) Neutral: All else Hostile: no one (Litheroy considers himself hostile to Leilani) Enemy: Gendu (Gendu considers Leilani his enemy) Chance of Invocation: 3 Invocation Modifiers: +1 Ten space or science fiction books +2 A hundred space or science fiction books +3 A space shuttle +4 A crowd of at least thirty people gathered to witness a stellar phenomenon (meteor shower, etc. etc.) +5 The Hubble space telescope +6 The Mir (or Alpha) space station Comments are, of course, welcome. Gendu follows in a couple of days. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:08:44 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >From: Omentide >Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:57:48 +0000 [snip] >OK, but other than potentially for Cherubim angels do not really care about >humans, just about human souls. *blinks* a) This doesn't answer my original objection re: your theory of Heaven's economy -- i.e., that using human souls as either currency or as involuntary wealth producers is entirely antithetical to Marc's Word... and Marc is the guy who runs Heaven's economy. >There is a great big difference between saving a human and saving a human >soul. Depends on your definition of 'saving'. Ensuring that the human lives a long and physically comfortable life? Nope, not their primary mission. (Although lots of angels *do* like to help humans live nicer... even David, one of the least compassionate Archangels around, still has part of his effort going towards trying to teach the monkeys how to build safe and comfortable houses. And then there's Novalis' and Zadkiel's soup kitchens... but I digress) Ensuring that human beings meet their Destinies and not their Fates? Ding! Now there's 'saving' that all kinds of angels can get up to, not just servitors of Yves. Although the non-Destiny angels usually figure out that it works better to let specialists handle the jobs they're best suited for, while sticking to their own jobs and supporting them. (It's much easier for servitors of Destiny to save souls in the neighborhood if the local servitors of Fate, Lust, Dark Humor, and etc. have all been shredded by -- or are too busy running and hiding from -- servitors of War, the Sword, etc. But I digress again...) >Any witch trial is a classic example of how little regard the church and by >inference heaven have for human flesh and how much importance is placed on >the soul. Angels are not human beings, not even human churchmen. There are no witch trials in Heaven -- hell, Heaven's "witch-hunter" (Dominic) *takes Dissonance* if he ever inflicts a punishment on a being out of proportion to whatever crime they are guilty of. >Simply put this is because by saving souls they prevent these souls going >to hell and in so doing denies Essence to hell. Would it seem sensible >for those souls who go to heven to simply play no further part whilst hell >is stockpiling Essence. Yes, it would seem sensible. That's what "selfless" *means* -- that you're not doing it for what you get back out of it, you're doing it just because you want to make sure the other guy is better off. >The war is about power No -- the War is about whether the Symphony as a whole will achieve its Destiny, or sink to its Fate. >in many ways Essence is that power or at very least a major part. Unless >Heaven and Hell are roughly equal one side would have won the war by now. Heaven and Hell are roughly equal /in number/... both of Superiors and of Servitors. And each celestial can only carry and use so much Essence at a time, regardless of how much Essence might be available 'back home'. God could quite literally be pouring infinite Essence into the streets of Heaven like he once poured manna upon the Israelites in the desert... and it still wouldn't end the War tomorrow, *because the angels can only use so much of it at a time*. >I know it is possible to argue that Angels gain essense by a different >means but as the number of souls in hell grows then so too must the power >available to heaven. Selfish or selfless, Celestials are still attuned to >the symphony, Incorrect -- the whole point of demons is that they've *lost* the true Symphony, and follow instead only their own selfish personal symphonies (as well as the First Balseraph's over-riding deception). >they are still made of the same stuff, a vessel for instance >is a vessel whether made in Heaven or Hell. There is no reason therefore >that if Angels or Heaven can gain essence dircetly from the symphony that >Demons or Hell cannot On the contrary, there's the perfect reason. What's the *one* thing in IN canon specifically said to possess infinite Essence? God. Whose side is He on? >and I cannot think of anything in the IN rules books >that states otherwise. Then reread Revelations 3 -- Heaven & Hell. As well as Mammon's writeup in Sup4. >Hence there is nothing non canon about the inference that Heaven takes (or >is given) essence from souls. And nothing selfish about taking essence to >fight the war against hell. Just as Angels can give to fight, why not the >blessed souls in Heaven? The blessed souls in Heaven can volunteer to give all they want -- but Heaven is not out there working to save souls because of the expectation that once they get to Heaven, at least some of them will volunteer Essence. Heaven saves souls because they *care*. And because it's the will of God. That's it. That's purely and simply it. Angels care about others, and they serve the will of God. "Yeah, but what's in it for *ME*?" is not an angelic mindset. - -- Chuckg (Note -- naturally, most of my above statements apply only in 'default' high-contrast, not-too-Dark IN campaigns. And definitely not for IN-Backwards.) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:08:52 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Guys, I suggest you all check www.white-wolf.com and then go to the >release >schedule. Scroll down to the bottom and cry like a baby. Then read my >sig. > Not before, though. > >Alison I think this may have escaped the rest of the lists attention. White Wolf doing an angels and demons game. Have we seen a game like round here some where before? Hmm, well it looks like the masses are gonna get the angels and demons game they been wanting. Yay. Looks like WW finally got round to updating the game they heard about a while ago. Looks promising, fully compatible with all the other games, with a hint of fomori legion thrown in for sicko joy. Well, it might be time to kiss In Nomine goodbye. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff >> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:14:18 -0000 From: "I. Inayat" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Lowe" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:35 PM Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 > Guys, I suggest you all check www.white-wolf.com and then go to the release > schedule. Scroll down to the bottom and cry like a baby. Then read my sig. > Not before, though. One point, however. /All/ that's known at the time are the title and the logo. It /looks as if/ it may be a core game for the World of Darkness, but that's still open to conjecture. (There's a rumoured blurb going around the WW forums and newsgroups.) Without knowing anything else, it's waiting for more concrete information. I /suspect/ it won't be much like IN, though... (and there're already other celestial games out there - 'Heaven & Hell' is one...) Imran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:23:57 -0500 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Leilani pt 1 Ooops! Sorry about that. I must have gotten confused between you and Maurice which I thought was Moe's name. Sorry, but thank you for continuing your creation. She fits so well into my game, its scarry. Its like you read my mind with what I needed and crafted it. I guess this is coming across as flattery, but its not intended to. Its what I meant. Looking forward to when RL no longer interfers with your continuation. Best Wishes, Jeffery >So sorry. Life got in the way. > >Interesting that you thought Leilani was Moe's...;) > >Part II follows in a separate mail, including new Choir attunements for >Ofanim and Cherubim. Thanks to Eric for pointing out the flaws in the >earlier versions. Thanks, >;) Manny Nepomuceno >http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools > >Q: How do you make God laugh? >A: Make a plan. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:26:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Prometheus was another prophetic type from Hellenic mythology -- the name itself means, "forethought." If you run an Ethereal or demonic campaign, he'd make a great adversary. He'd probably work _with_ angels, though. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Love is an exploding cigar which we willingy smoke." -- Linda Barry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Thorns - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > After submitting the Sorrow story, I thought I should > create this > one.... > > Shemeriel > Malakite of Flowers > Master of Peace > The Angel of Thorns I like this one. Gotta find a use for him... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Love is an exploding cigar which we willingy smoke." -- Linda Barry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:32:05 -0000 From: "I. Inayat" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cassandra benner" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:08 PM Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 > Guys, I suggest you all check www.white-wolf.com and then go to the > >release > >schedule. Scroll down to the bottom and cry like a baby. Then read my > >sig. > > Not before, though. > > > >Alison > > > I think this may have escaped the rest of the lists attention. > > White Wolf doing an angels and demons game. > Have we seen a game like round here some where before? Um, /no/. It's /not/ an angels and demons game. All we know is the title and logo - /nothing else/. > Hmm, well it looks like the masses are gonna get the angels and demons game > they been wanting. Really? On the forums, one or two people /there/ are complaining about it being an IN ripoff, apparently based on the title. (There's no mention of angels associated with the game...) > Yay. > Looks like WW finally got round to updating the game they heard about a > while ago. Uh-uh. For one thing... SJG has In Nomine, not WW. For another, we don't know what it's about. And there are /other/ companies who've done celestial games. > Looks promising, fully compatible with all the other games, with a hint of > fomori legion thrown in for sicko joy. Again... Um, where? (Crossover avoidance seems to be the name of the game at WW...) > Well, it might be time to kiss In Nomine goodbye. Because /another/ company is doing its own take on the demon idea doesn't mean that SJG's take on it is necessarily under threat... Imran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:37:36 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood Gaaaaah! The only thing that keeps me from declaring this non-angelic is the punishment that David meted out in FotM. Unpleasant as they are, Bracers of Brotherhood do seem like something that David would do. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Love is an exploding cigar which we willingy smoke." -- Linda Barry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:38:43 -0700 (MST) From: GROTH TIMOTHY PAUL Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 It is entirely possible that the game is for the Exalted line. Given the status of Demons in the WoD I would be shocked to see it as part of that game. Especially if it's a book about the kind of demons that the WoD has had so far. I doubt it'll be anything like In-Nomine. For one thing it'll be trying to fit into a mish-mash cosmology with less constants than IN. Also as White Wolf loves adolescent moral ambiguity and has a tendancy railroading characters into internal struggles my guess is that this game will be nothing like In-Nomine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:42:33 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood >From: Michael Walton >Subject: Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:37:36 -0800 (PST) > Gaaaaah! The only thing that keeps me from declaring >this non-angelic is the punishment that David meted out in >FotM. /me winces at the thought of yet another discussion of how uncharacteristically stupid FotM was. Even though I agree that David was *massively* under-written and badly written in it. OTOH, I can see David doing the Bracers of Brotherhood routine -- but only if he were upfront about how they worked. "Either you will learn to strike as one, and not individually. Or you will kill yourselves. The choice is up to you." - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:55:51 -0000 From: "I. Inayat" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "GROTH TIMOTHY PAUL" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:38 PM Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 > It is entirely possible that the game is for the Exalted line. Given the > status of Demons in the WoD I would be shocked to see it as part of that > game. Especially if it's a book about the kind of demons that the WoD has > had so far. Actually, Exalted already has its own ways of dealing with that - the Infernal Exalted. You weren't the only one shocked. So were quite a few posters. However, the title follows the World of Darkness format, not the Exalted format. You /may/ be right... but the Exalted developer has barred Demon threads from his WW forum. > I doubt it'll be anything like In-Nomine. For one thing it'll be trying > to fit into a mish-mash cosmology with less constants than IN. Actually, six different cosmologies. It's only a mish-mash if you try to reconcile them all... > Also as > White Wolf loves adolescent moral ambiguity and has a tendancy railroading > characters into internal struggles my guess is that this game will be > nothing like In-Nomine. Could we avoid the 'We're better than them' arguments? I /can/ see the potential adolescent moral ambiguity in WW... but also sophisticated moral ambiguity. I can see the same in IN. /I'm/ a fan of both lines. It is possible.. Imran. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:57:54 -0600 From: toadpooka@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:57:48 +0000 Omentide writes: > There is a great big difference between saving a human and saving a human soul. Any witch trial is a > classic example of how little regard the church and by inference heaven have > for human flesh and how much importance is placed on the soul. While I agree with you about what the War is fought for, your witch trial example is flawed. You presume that everything done by a church is approved of and sanctioned by Heaven/God. This is definitely not the case in this game, as Diabolicals have used religious groups (including the major ones) to their own ends for centuries. From Whom It May Concern, Rich Ranallo "Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." - -Prof. Michio Kaku ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:40:56 -0600 From: toadpooka@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Wish List On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:55:32 -0500 "Robb Kidd" writes: > Perry Lloyd wrote: > Hey, go for it, people hate diversity, frankly, and the ideas of > Dreams made Flesh is extremely boring. > > Yea. The Sandman series by that Gaiman fellow didn't do well > at all. > > > > And besides, Ethereal beings would have to have their own cool > powers, but no one buys supplements because of cool powers . . . or cool > stories about the Old Gods points of view, their secret societies, or the lay > out of the Far Marches. > > So no one bought "Liber Canticorum" or "Rev2: The Marches"? I get the idea that Mr Lloyd's comments might have been sarcastic, or at least not entirely genuine. Not that I agree with them; Sandman might have been popular, but that doesn't, in my opinion, make it good, nor does it mean that every game about supernatural beings should emulate it. If you want a game that does emulate that, I've heard Nobilis is quite good. From Whom It May Concern, Rich Ranallo "Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." - -Prof. Michio Kaku ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:01:57 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Re: #2462 (veering OT) >Again... Um, where? > >(Crossover avoidance seems to be the name of the game at WW...) > >>Imran > BJ Zanzibars site, one of the few official unofficial WoD site which has stuff sent in by the WW staff. Mostly throw away ideas, and a whole load of fan submissions. However i recall seeing Angel: The Rapture. It was one of the WW staff who sent it in. In one of the earlier versions of it it mentioned that angels and demons will be featured in the WOD but not in the same way that the fomori are represented. Now whether this is all of that comming out at long last we just cant tell. Now if it is a threat to In, consider why it might be a threat to IN. Then look at the whole slew of posts we have had recently about wish lists and the like. Look at the things david and beth mentioned in the subject as well. It will only be a threat to In if it is good. But it should be a comparable threat in a similar way beethoven was to mozart. Both are very good, and some people are passionate about or the other, some prefere holst. Both artists were great, and thats how i see In and WoD. Both are very good, but IN leaves to many things un answered, where as has been mentioned a lot recently, WoD lays down a lot of deffinates and yes the players are small fry, but they can change things, the adventures published give ways for the players to be involved in all the major things, and soem of the time lines allow for big thing to happen or not to happen, because somethign similar will eventually happen and the players just are not there for that pivotal moment. Well, ive rambled enough. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:22:19 -0700 (MST) From: GROTH TIMOTHY PAUL Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 My bad, forgot a :) or some other indication that I wasn't entirely serious. I actually like two of the WoD games (Wraith and Mage), but I can't imagine integrating playable demon/demon derived beings into any of them. I think it'll sell well due to the tendancy to buy on blind faith. Hopefully they'll put in the section where they recommend other RPGs a blurb about IN. There is room on the market, epsecially since it is very unlikely to see what amounts to an IN conversation dropped into WoD. That would make so little sense I doubt even WW would consider it ;). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:51:59 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > God is God. Simply that. Heaven and Hell didn't create Destiny and Fate. God did. Mortals generally have to do some pretty good things to achieve their destiny, and some pretty bad things to achieve their fate. This strongly suggests that the standard In Nomine God is good. In a game where God is neutral, fates and destinies will seem *very* arbitrary and *very* ineffable. Joe has to kill Frank and steal $100,000 from a bank in St. Louis to achieve his destiny. Adam has to quit his job and raise his adopted child to achieve his fate... you get the idea. > Ashley Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:00:22 -0500 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Demon: the Fallen (was Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462) On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:35:40PM +0000, Alison Lowe wrote: > Guys, I suggest you all check www.white-wolf.com and then go to the release > schedule. Scroll down to the bottom and cry like a baby. From what I hear, Demon: the Fallen isn't a demons and angels game. It's anti-Hunters for Hunter: the Reckoning (or whatever it's called). The name choice is simply unfortunate. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:09:56 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Re: Demon: the Fallen (almost OT) Heres the Official Blurb for Demon. http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/white_wolf_games/85045 In Nomine gets a mention, although it is spelt wrong, but its a mention none the less. :o) Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:21:02 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Humanity and Religion in In Nomine One of the "flavors" of In Nomine that I found enjoyable was the fact that Angels DON'T think like humans but essentially they are in the same boat as mankind. What I mean is a Celestial may have seen the Creation of the Earth, the rise of the Dinosaurs, and knows for sure that a human being who achieves his destiny isn't a real loss....but he still suffers pain, he still has reasons to doubt, hunger, etc. He can become pokemon obsessed just as any human. In effect it's a curious bit of flavor that even 50,000,000,000 year old Michael still enjoys kicking back with a bear and the sensation of splattering a demons head against the skull. No matter how old or how powerful you get your still subject to the same temptations and feelings as a human being whose only lived a fraction of that time. "They are very much like us" As for religion I rather like the feel of In Nomine that for the most part....nobody cares. I mean basically it's like being in the military (anyone here in the armed services willing to back me up?). You serve you country and that instils a certain amount of patriotism and mystique but there's no real need for awe after you've served a few centuries. Exceptions occur but the fact remains most angels will recognize that while Christianity might be X closer to the truth (and very important because it's some of the first physical contact with god in years) it's still sent just as many to Heaven and Hell as Judaism and Islam. I also run righteous pagans for the most part enter heaven as well with only those entering as dreamshades who have a specific devotion to a deity instead of good vs. evil in general. So really Heaven while righteously cheesed at the Marches blasphemy wasn't overwhelmingly concerned either. "What is the secret to the Universe Lord David?" "Behave yourself." (From the Tin Woodsman of Oz-paraphrased) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:29:29 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> What's essence good for? This is basically in regards to the Heaven and harvesting of the righteous question. Really speaking since I suspect the majority of souls go up Jacob's ladder IMC I doubt really there is much in regards to a population of souls in Heaven. Basically those who stay behind are people not there to enjoy themselves but those who are either unready to make the final plunge (the souls of children for instance who achieved their destinies) or those who have a specific tie to a word or concern for the people in Hell and on Earth needing to be fixed. For the most part they'res no need for essence because these saints need it just as much as angels do. However in the Ethereal marches however souls are very important because if a spirit has a SINGLE soul that essence is likely enough to sustain him indefinately and the gods had best keep those souls happy/damned. Thus Hades, Valhalla, and the rest were high places of importance to the the ethereals whose power depends a great deal on dreamshades. Hell on the other hand needs essence I think mainly because of attrition value and greed. Evil if you will catch my drift is not a natural state to mankind and while Lightning will progress naturally- Technology requires not only people who tinker with stuff but people who want to tinker with dangerous, ugly, and frequently unnatural stuff. Even if there's a would be doctor frankenstein in every class it's still not the majority.... Plus perfectly speaking every Prince of Hell also has what might be construed as a significant amount of infighting going on. My guess is 1/10 gremlins make it to full demon status in a hundred years with the rest being destroyed and only 1/3rd of the demons survive their first hundred years as well (and that's being generous). In effect a very large waste of forces but with hell's "resource" management they have suceeded not only in surviving but biologically speaking thriving.... Originally only a 1/3rd ofthe host over a measely 25,000 years they've suceeded in equally heaven and making the war a stalemate. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:37:43 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >While I agree with you about what the War is fought for, your witch trial >example is flawed. You presume that everything done by a church is >approved of and sanctioned by Heaven/God. This is definitely not the >case in this game, as Diabolicals have used religious groups (including >the major ones) to their own ends for centuries. Of course. It was just an example of the different valence of a human and a human soul. Both angels and demons are really after souls, human servants might be useful for a short time, souls are useful for far longer. Humans=Souls=Essence=Power. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:10:24 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >[snip] >>OK, but other than potentially for Cherubim angels do not really care >>about humans, just about human souls. > >*blinks* > >a) This doesn't answer my original objection re: your theory of Heaven's >economy -- i.e., that using human souls as either currency or as >involuntary wealth producers is entirely antithetical to Marc's Word... >and Marc is the guy who runs Heaven's economy. Sure Marc runs the economy. But what is the coin? >>There is a great big difference between saving a human and saving a human >>soul. > >Depends on your definition of 'saving'. Ensuring that the human lives a >long and physically comfortable life? Nope, not their primary mission. >(Although lots of angels *do* like to help humans live nicer... even >David, one of the least compassionate Archangels around, still has part of >his effort going towards trying to teach the monkeys how to build safe and >comfortable houses. And then there's Novalis' and Zadkiel's soup >kitchens... but I digress) > >Ensuring that human beings meet their Destinies and not their Fates? Ding! Precisely, and because this determines where the soul goes, to heaven or hell. >>Any witch trial is a classic example of how little regard the church and >>by inference heaven have for human flesh and how much importance is >>placed on the soul. > >Angels are not human beings, not even human churchmen. There are no witch >trials in Heaven -- hell, Heaven's "witch-hunter" (Dominic) *takes >Dissonance* if he ever inflicts a punishment on a being out of proportion >to whatever crime they are guilty of. Again I agree. Angels are not human any more the demons are (one possible exception of course). But this does not mean they care about humans. >>Simply put this is because by saving souls they prevent these souls going >>to hell and in so doing denies Essence to hell. Would it seem sensible >>for those souls who go to heven to simply play no further part whilst >>hell is stockpiling Essence. > >Yes, it would seem sensible. That's what "selfless" *means* -- that >you're not doing it for what you get back out of it, you're doing it just >because you want to make sure the other guy is better off. And the souls in heaven could selflessly give because they are part of heaven, have chosen destiny and to support the side of heaven is part of that destiny. >>The war is about power > >No -- the War is about whether the Symphony as a whole will achieve its >Destiny, or sink to its Fate. And this is determined by humanity. If not there would ne no point in fighting over the corporeal. Angels and demons are more effective celestial that corporeal - it is their natural state. Does not the very fact that the corporeal is so important make a point about the value of human souls? >>in many ways Essence is that power or at very least a major part. Unless >>Heaven and Hell are roughly equal one side would have won the war by now. > >Heaven and Hell are roughly equal /in number/... both of Superiors and of >Servitors. And each celestial can only carry and use so much Essence at a >time, regardless of how much Essence might be available 'back home'. > >God could quite literally be pouring infinite Essence into the streets of >Heaven like he once poured manna upon the Israelites in the desert... and >it still wouldn't end the War tomorrow, *because the angels can only use >so much of it at a time*. So at the fall, when the rebels are weak.... God pumps a mass of essence into heaven. Hell can receive no such thing yet. Hell loses instantly. This did not happen. Why? I dunno. But seriously Angels may only be able to use so much essence themselves, but with infinite essence and AA could creat infinite angels and by sheer weight of numbers the war would be won. >>I know it is possible to argue that Angels gain essense by a different >>means but as the number of souls in hell grows then so too must the power >>available to heaven. Selfish or selfless, Celestials are still attuned >>to the symphony, > >Incorrect -- the whole point of demons is that they've *lost* the true >Symphony, and follow instead only their own selfish personal symphonies >(as well as the First Balseraph's over-riding deception). Demons have their personal symphony but they are still part of the symphony, they are still celestial beings. Their vessel is created from the symphony as are their forces. The nature of demons is no different from that of angels, only the perspective, selfless or selfish determins whether angel or demon. >>they are still made of the same stuff, a vessel for instance >>is a vessel whether made in Heaven or Hell. There is no reason therefore >>that if Angels or Heaven can gain essence dircetly from the symphony that >>Demons or Hell cannot > >On the contrary, there's the perfect reason. > >What's the *one* thing in IN canon specifically said to possess infinite >Essence? > >God. > >Whose side is He on? If he had taken sides their would be no war. With that much essence and being omnipotent he could crush hell on his own. If he is on the side of heaven why does he not do this? God has AFAIK chosen not to take sides inm the war. >>Hence there is nothing non canon about the inference that Heaven takes >>(or is given) essence from souls. And nothing selfish about taking >>essence to fight the war against hell. Just as Angels can give to fight, >>why not the blessed souls in Heaven? > >The blessed souls in Heaven can volunteer to give all they want -- but >Heaven is not out there working to save souls because of the expectation >that once they get to Heaven, at least some of them will volunteer Essence. > Heaven saves souls because they *care*. And because it's the will of God. Of course heaven cares about souls. So does hell. How they care is the difference. Souls in heaven can volunteer to give essence, in the own way so do souls in hell though usually under duress. The heaven perspective could simply be 'you are a good soul, we need your essence to fight this war against hell.' And 'good' soul under such conditions would give for the war effort. >That's it. That's purely and simply it. Angels care about others, and >they serve the will of God. "Yeah, but what's in it for *ME*?" is not an >angelic mindset. Never said 'what's in it for me' was in the angel mind set. What's in it for heaven is usually in their mindset even if justified by the argument that saving souls is good because it prevents the soul from eternal damnation and as such denies hell essence. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2466 ********************************