in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 20 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2552 In this digest: Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... IN> The Angels of Fear IN> Cherub of Fire Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: IN> The Angels of Fear IN> About: My Heretical Jordi IN> My heretical Jordi Re: IN> Jordi revisited IN> Quick info request... Re: IN> About: My Heretical Jordi Re: IN> Quick info request... Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:31:37 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited > >Perhaps an Indian tribe > >did once run thousands of buffalo off a cliff, but they never NEVER >nearly > >drove the buffalo to nearly extinction as the Europeans did (as they near > >did to the wolf as well). It >was done with woolly mammoths -- whose extinction *was* directly due to >hunting by Native Americans. To quote >http://www.bagheera.com/inthewild/ext_woollym.htm Really! Cool!! >William > > Where's the damn IN Time Travel supplement?! (With Krono's time-projection abilities, you'd naturally assume ...) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:48:57 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... > I'm sorry if this question has already been asked - I'm sure it likely >has >been - but I couldn't find any answers in the FAQ or elsewhere. > > It is repeatedly stated that a being in a Corporeal Vessel is immune to >Celestial attacks... But what is conspiciously not said is whether or not >a >being in a Vessel is prohibited from making Celestial attacks. Perhaps I >am >misreading things, but it looks to me like a Celestial in a Vessel is >allowed to make Celestial attacks on a Celestial floating around without a >Vessel. oh, god. I never thought of that. > On a related topic - and also one that I'm sure has been discussed >before, >but since I'm sounding silly already - does anyone find that Soul-killing >happens at all in their games? bwahahaha!!!! My game has it LEFT and RIGHT. See, I realized that my players love to kill things, and that they were getting pretty pissed at having their enemies return every week or so. So ... one of them bought a Celestial Artifact called Redemption. It's a Celestial Shotgun. (though it functions in just about everyway like a melee weapon) Thing is ... the wielder had Pre 12, Ranged Weapon 6 and and the gun itself was Power +4 (or something like). So, the PC was throwing around at least 10 points of damage with everyblast ... heh heh heh. But, that wasn't enough, oh no. No no no ... they wanted more, and so one of them discovered a Binding Dagger (LRel pg 72) which prevents a slain celestial from fleeing the vincity of its former vessel. Instant hit. Thankfully they've haven't used their power all that often (though that's every chance they can get). Celestial weapons make Soul death a much more serious threat, and Force loss a virtual guarantee (which I like, since that seems to scare off the PCs from doing it all too often). It seems to me that only a Heartless >Celestial ever really stands a chance of getting Soul-Killed - anyone else >should easily be able to make the Will roll to return to their Heart before >they loose too many Forces. The Binding dagger changes all that ... and the Celestial Song of Forbidding can change all that, too. heh heh heh I hope that helps some. (of course, the easiest thing to do is to degree that celestials can ONLY ascend through Tethers. This was discussed a few months back, IIRC. Seemed like a top-notch In Nomine mod to me.) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:05:40 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: IN> The Angels of Fear Hey, I'm staying off the Jordi thread. Here's something else to toy with. Suitable for darker campaigns. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools Glowing with a soft radiance, the two Elohim looked up from their bloody work at the dark tower rising crookedly in the distance. Behind them, Jehos and Camaille were finishing off the Calabite. Not for the first time, the younger Elohite felt grateful for their silent presence on this journey. "That," murmured the elder, "is the face of the enemy." He looked down at his bloody hands to the remains of the foolhardy Habbalite. "Not this, nor that," and he indicated the fallen Calabite. "But the tower of Nightmares, in all its squalor." Confusion flickered across the face of the younger Elohite. Behind them, the two Malakim melted away into the chaos of the Marches, keeping an invisible vigil over their charges. "This is closer than I have ever been," said the younger. "It has...beauty." "Indeed," said the elder. "Some among us believe that she was seduced by it." He paused, reflective. "You must think us foolish, for doing work that seems to mirror hers." The young Elohite's mouth twisted in a wry grin. "It has crossed my mind." "That is said of us. Yet we serve a necessary function." He paused again. "The critical difference between us and what she used to be, young one, is that we fulfill the function -- we are its tools, not its masters." The chaos flexed. A dreamscape rolled by, careening madly, its surface a reddish-silver sheen of fright. The younger Power twitched; the elder held a restraining hand on his arm. "We are here to observe, not to act." They watched impassively as it vanished into a maelstrom of color and emotion. "Beleth, Princess of Nightmares. Once the Archangel of Fear. You were not around then, young one. I was. She understood then. Perhaps she still does. Regardless of her absence, we must still continue the work." It was his turn to smile. "And perhaps one day Heaven will thank us for it." The Angels of Fear Humans are broken. It has been noted many times that each individual is, on some level, a reflection of Heaven, with all its conflicting agendas and personalities. Most angels (and Archangels) overlook this, or quickly forget it, busying themselves with the concerns of the War. Haniel has never forgotten it. In the beginning, he served Fear and Dreams both, in a time when the distinction was unimportant. He had a special project of his own as well -- he sought to understand why humans could be so contradictory in nature, why the meek gatherer of fruit could also be the frenzied warrior. To better understand humans, he immersed himself in their dreams. And recoiled from the horrors therein. Beyond their petty fears of pain and the unknown was a deeper monster, one who was a slave of his lusts. Over the years Haniel watched civilization develop and saw how its mores repressed the human subconscious. When the concept of private property was introduced, Haniel discovered that more and more humans began to crave others' belongings. When marriage came into vogue, Haniel watched as more and more humans dreamt of taking their neighbor's spouse or cheating on their own. Yet in the waking world, he found that the opposite was quite true. The man who secretly lusted after every woman in the village was, in fact, utterly devoted to his wife. The youth who dreamt of killing his father cared for him in his dotage. Far better than anyone, save perhaps for the two Archangels, Haniel understood the interplay between Fear and Dreams, and saw that each was necessary for the other. When Lucifer tore his Superiors apart, Haniel was, at first, confused about the part he was to play in the unfolding drama. He felt for Beleth, but he could not sympathize with her choice. Blandine, on the other hand, was far too focused on other aspects of her Word to appreciate his value. The Lightbringer did his best to play on Haniel's affiliation with Fear, offering him power, prestige, authority. In the end, Haniel refused, and distinguished himself in the fighting that followed. Today, the warrior Elohite is the head of a small contingent of Servitors of Dreams. They are kept under close scrutiny at all times -- even the Malakim among them, after all, have Hearts to look into -- but are allowed to carry out what they perceive to be their functions. They are the Angels of Fear. Each of them has a price on his head. Beleth is, after all, a jealous Princess, and her Servitors are legion in the depths of the Marches. Unlike the demons of Nightmares, they have no charter to terrify humans, although they may use nightmares as their tools if absolutely necessary. They act as humanity's safety valves, offering catharsis whenever necessary, and more than one human has avoided his Fate simply because an Angel of Fear kept him dreaming. Through the agency of these angels, humans experience depravity: they fulfill their secret lusts, their aches and longings granted free reign in the privacy of their own dreamscapes. Often, this keeps them from trying to fulfill these fantasies in the waking world. No few Angels of Fear use warning dreams as well, when it is deemed necessary: fears of retribution are played on, and the backlash of consequence is a far smaller thing for actions taken in dreams than in real life. The Archangel of Dreams is notably reticent when it comes to discussing these Servitors, although they have a poor reputation among her other agents. An Angel of Fear is less likely to earn a boon from Blandine, leading many to speculate that Haniel and his group have somehow earned her disfavor. Blandine simply doesn't say. The group is primarily composed of older, more experienced angels, Elohim and Malakim for the most part. A few Ofanim and Kyriotates are also members, although there is a remarkable lack of Seraphim, Cherubim and Mercurians in the ranks of the Angels of Fear. Of late, Haniel and his most trusted lieutenants have begun to recruit more of the newer Servitors of Dreams, hoping that they will be more receptive than their older peers. With the ranks of the Angels of Fear dwindling -- the result of an organized, aggressive campaign among some of Beleth's more aggrieved Servitors -- it is difficult to say whether the Angels of Fear will remain a force to be reckoned with in the Marches for much longer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:40:10 +0100 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: IN> Cherub of Fire One of my players wants to play a Cherub of Fire. The problem I can see is that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets that has betrayed somebody devoted to them. As s/he recognizes such persons just by looking at them it means that just walking along a busy street s/he will meet a number of people she can -and must- punish. There is the danger that the player will focus on solitary play instead of working with the other angels. Also, as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search for the next one. There is a big chance that this will create problems with the rest of the group as the Cherub must constantly do things that have no direct connection with the scenario or the other angels. As it stands a Cherub of Fire looks very restricted to fit in a campaign with other angels. Have other GMs encountered this problem with a Cherub of Fire and if so, how did they solve it? How can I make sure a player with a Cherub of Fire will have fun playing his character while preventing him from any kind of solitary play? Also, what is a fun person that needs to be protected by a Cherub? I expect that other GMs have created interesting "charges" for their Cherubs and maybe they can share experiences. I was thinking of a local politician or a well-known artist (as the latter would fit better with Gabriel). The artist can be a brilliant painter but with the tendency to use drugs and other self-destructive tendencies to get inspiration from. Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:27:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited - --- Bevan Thomas wrote: > And what makes the Native Americans so special anyway? > How about the Black > Africans, the Siberians, the Australians, or other such > tribal cultures? > They were just as close to nature as the Native > Americans. It's not just the close to nature part that Jordi would like -- there's the whole balance of power issue (which, IMHO, is Jordi's real beef with Human technology). Consider: a single man with no tools is no match for a lion. But take that same man, give him a spear and a couple of similarly-armed friends and it's an even fight (anyone who doubts this should refer to the Masai, who had to do just that sort of thing as a rite of passage). Jordi should've liked all of the tribal cultures, not just the Native Americans, and his expanded write-up should specify the reason as the way that such cultures fit into the natural order. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:27:38 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Hey, >One of my players wants to play a Cherub of Fire. The problem I can see is >that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets that has betrayed >somebody devoted to them. As s/he recognizes such persons just by looking at >them it means that just walking along a busy street s/he will meet a number >of people she can -and must- punish. I haven't had the experience of having a Cherub of Fire in my games, but a number of other Superiors have dissonance conditions that are similarly unwieldy (for me, at least). Janus, Nybbas and Valefor, IMO, are particularly guilty of requiring certain behaviors from their Servitors which can interfere in the resolution of a campaign. The bit about having to punish everyone -- while it's not explicit, it is implied in the dissonance conditions that Servitors of Fire work on one person at a time. I like the way the conditions are written; it's implied that other, more hard-working Servitors, can work on more than one cruel person, but as far as I can tell the absolute minimum is one cruel person per (Celestial Forces) days -- just right for the PC who has to race around the world, doing your bidding...er, advancing the story. >There is the danger that the player >will focus on solitary play instead of working with the other angels. That's where superiors (big and small s) come in. As a gesture of goodwill, Soldekai can assign the Cherub to work with other angels -- even with the understanding that the angel will gain dissonance while doing so (I'm sure that, being a Malakite, he's not going to be too happy about that, but one must make sacrifices as the Chamberlain of the Legions of Flame.) I seem to recall that he's even willing to arrange for the offending angel to spend time in a Tether, working off the dissonance, if the mission is particularly worthy. Gabriel's sudden appearance to give instructions to the Servitor can also work, and you get to give insanely cryptic orders as well! It's also a good starting point for interaction between PCs of different Words: "Hey, I'll help you Swordies take out that Tether of the War, provided you help me with this little task Gabriel needs done..." Other things I've done: The PCs are all "attached" to Michael's or Laurence's organization, although they must still fulfill their Archangel's dissonance conditions. If ANY of the PCs become dissonant as a result of their actions, ALL of the PCs will be reprimanded. In the meantime, there is this little mission that's got to get done before 1800H next Wednesday... The PCs are not bossed around by their Superiors, but rather by mid-level Wordbound. The Angel of Just Punishment appears from out of nowhere, orders a lone Cherub of Fire to assist him, then dumps the Cherub with a team of similar "loners" -- an Elohite of the Wind, a Seraph of the Sword, and a Kyriotate of Flowers -- with orders to infiltrate the charity run by one Klaus Schrecker...before disappearing, ostensibly to smooth things out in Heaven. The other angels don't know anything about the mission either. >Also, >as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search for >the next one. There is a big chance that this will create problems with the >rest of the group as the Cherub must constantly do things that have no >direct connection with the scenario or the other angels. As it stands a >Cherub of Fire looks very restricted to fit in a campaign with other angels. Again, that depends on both you and your players. I'd rather welcome the opportunity, especially if I had any RP-hogs in my game; I'd hope for a Mercurian of Flowers to go with said Cherub of Fire. I think if you set it up just right, incorporate the Cherub's victim into the storyline (what if the person was the Cherub's attuned's girlfriend, who left her husband to be with her true love? Old grandmother? Beloved teacher?) then you have an opportunity for drama and depth instead of an annoying side quest that needs to get done. >Also, what is a fun person that needs to be protected by a Cherub? I expect >that other GMs have created interesting "charges" for their Cherubs and >maybe they can share experiences. I was thinking of a local politician or a >well-known artist (as the latter would fit better with Gabriel). The artist >can be a brilliant painter but with the tendency to use drugs and other >self-destructive tendencies to get inspiration from. Off the top of my head: Bright Lilim with a memory problem. "I'm a verrrrrrrry bad, baaaaad girrrrrrrrl...oh wait, I'm not anymore." The Archangel Eli. "Hey, let's try THIS!" The Archangel Janus's motorbike. Any flavor of Kyriotate. Old Ironsides. "Soldekai here. I've just gotten word that some Servitors of Dark Humor are planning something involving the frigate Constitution and you're the only one in any kind of position to prevent it. I'm making some arrangements for other angels to come in, but they probably won't be serving Fire. Let me know when you've taken care of that little problem." A redemption candidate. "This little doohickey? Oh, it's nothing. I just picked it up before I left Vapula's main laboratory..." A cat. As you can see, you have lots of options...;) Hope this helps. ;) Manny Nepomuceno http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:32:51 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Donato Ranzato wrote: > The problem I can see is that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets > that has betrayed somebody devoted to them. Actually, they focus more on the *cruel* betrayal of trust. So a woman who said something mean to her boyfriend could be overlooked, but the man who knowingly put his parents into an abusive nursing home would get the Cherub's attention. That kind of betrayal isn't so common unless you are playing a dark campaign. > Also, as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search > for the next one. Not necessarily. A Gabrielite can be sent on Earth to protect people that inspire. And if a Cherub of Fire has the choice of protecting their attuned or punishing the cruel, they are most likely to protect their attuned. > I was thinking of a local politician or a well-known artist (as the latter > would fit better with Gabriel). The artist can be a brilliant painter but with > the tendency to use drugs and other self-destructive tendencies to get > inspiration from. Interesting notion, especially since the Mercurians are the ones who stop people from self abuse. But once the Cherub gets attuned to the person, it could lead to an abrupt decline in drug dealers in the area... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:33:54 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Angels of Fear I like, Manny. Question: do the Angels of Fear still have Fear Attunements, or have they all been completely attuned to Dreams? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:44:43 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> About: My Heretical Jordi When I wrote up those alternate band write-ups, I had no idea my alternate version of Jordi would spark such debate. Looks like I unwittingly woke up a sleeping List. ^^! But I stand by my "Heretical" portrayal as my Jordi of choice in any future campaigns I'll run, because it's the only one that makes sense to me. The way Jordi is portrayed in Canon, I don't think his views are realistic. Either he should've centuries ago (20 000 years is a LONG time to hold a prejudiced view of a species), or he should've revised his opinion long ago. Why do I say that? Because for thousands of years, we humans have been dependant on Animals for our very survival, and indeed for the basics of our civilisation. It wasn't until we discovered Herding that our numbers started to grow enough to sustain civilisations, and even then, those civilisations were shaped by the animals we kept. Tribes that herded sedentary animals like bovines became sedentary, city-building civilisations, while those that herded migratory animals like camels became nomadic civilisations. Throughout the centuries, all over the world, there have been numerous exemples of Humans co-existing happily with animal civilisations, with some exemples of human-animal cooperation. It hasn't been until the Industrial Revolution about 200 years ago that we humans REALLY started to screw up the Environment for animals. And only now are we actually trying to help the animals by reducing the harm and helping them repopulate. I believe a PROPER Archangel of Animals would NOT have condemned Humanity when it first developped it's differences, but would've decided to teach the Humans how to co-exist with the Environment. This would've made him a bit more important in Heavenly politics, however, since the favored Corporeal transportation of choice before the Internal Combustion Engine was the Model 1 Horse... ...And guess who's Servitors know how to breed and train the best breeds? My version of Jordi would only NOW be starting to develop an anger focused at Humanity's casual acceptance of Polluting Technology and abusive attitude towards the exploitation of Animals. Only now, following the past 200 years of Industrialization, would he have started focusing on more "aggressive" methods of protecting the Animal kingdom: Animal Rights Activists, Vegetarianism, Ecological Awareness movements... And yes, a disturbingly increasing number of Eco-Terrorists. But if just Jordi has spilled so much electronic ink... I can't wait to see how you react to my up-coming Heretical versions of Gabriel and Belial. >=) - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:13:28 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> My heretical Jordi I had no idea, when I dreamed up those alternate Jordi servitor attunements a few days ago, that I'd spark such a heated debate concerning Jordi's own status as an Archangel... ^^! Perhaps I should explain my position on the matter... You see, it doesn't make sense to me that Jordi has stayed an Archangel with a dislike of Humanity for over 20000 years without him falling. Either he should've become a Demon Prince by now, or at some point, his opinion of Humanity should've gotten toned down, if only temporarily. Because let's face it, Human Civilisation hasn't become truly environmentally unfriendly until a centuries ago, following the Industrial Revolution (which is why I believe Vapula should be Jordi's most hated Demon Prince). In fact, Human Civilisation has, for thousands of years, been very dependant on Animals for it's survival and success. And not just for consumable animals, either. Animal labor (for which animals have always been rewarded by good farmers) has been the key to human civilisation's success, and has helped shape it. Bovines have been our first mill engines, while nomadic civilisations have been forged by the migratory animals they adopted as their own. And haven't Dogs been Man's Best Friend for thousands of years? Maybe Jordi, upon Yves' suggestions, took it upon himself to teach Humanity how to co-exist peacefully with Animal-kind. After all, if Humanity's so "Special", they can learn to take care of the Animals instead of wiping them out, can't they? As for Jordi's political influence, he should definetly have a little more in the Seraphim council... If only because Animals have been so useful before Jean authorized the use of technological advances on Earth. Need to track someone down? As a servitor of Jordi who handles dogs or wolves to help out. Need to send a message to somewhere without spending Essence? You can, for a favor, borrow one of Jordi's carrier pigeons. Need to go somewhere fast? Guess who's Servitors breed and raise the finest horses? Only recently, with forensic labs, telephones and cars would these things be superfluous. Of course, Jordi would hardly be pleased by the modern age for many reasons. Now Humanity's lost touch with Nature, and is hurting far more animals then can be helped. Animal abuse is becoming increasingly commonplace in many regions, and other animals are being hunted to extinction for parts of their anatomy to be consummed on the Black Market (Why Jordi also hates Mammon and Haagenti). And Jordi's animal resources have been replaced by Jean's Gadgetry more and more... (Why Jordi dislikes Jean) As for methods, I still picture Jordi and his Servitors as more then just eco-terrorists with animal forms... I'm sorry, but I think movements like the World Wildlife Fund does a whole lot more good for animal rights then a Eco-terrorist group, if only because people will listen to what they have to say. After all, we're to assume that Novalis is Jordi's closest friend amongst the Archangels, right? You don't think she'd have convinced him to try softer methods FIRST? Personally, I see the Word of Animals being supported more vividly by inspiring actions from the likes of President Ted Roosevelt (founder of the Parks and Forestry service and National Parks), Brigitte Bardot (an actress who devoted her life to animal rights) and Steve Irwin (who demonstrates his love of reptiles on his show on a daily basis) then by the actions of a rogue group of eco-terrorists. To me, seeing Jordi as an Archangel who only mildly dislikes Humanity on principle, has spent centuries trying to teach them how to play nice with the animals, and only NOW is starting to lose patience, makes more sense to me then the 20000 year-old grudge holding Eco-terrorist of canon... In any case, that's my opinion of it, and my heretical version. Feel free to discard it. But if THIS has sparked such debate... I AM considering heretical versions of Gabriel and Belial... *Evil Grin* - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:34:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited A few months back, I posted an addition to the Jordi canon, which might stand re-posting for these threads, so here it is: Subject: IN> Jordi Lite In the GM's Guide, there's a remark that, in a Christian-flavored campaign, Jordi would have to be lightened up a lot. I think lightening up Jordi would make him a lot more useable in a campaign of any (or no) denominational flavor. Here's a way to do it: Jordi, in canon, is massively disinterested in Heavenly politics. The other Archangels consider him crazy, and he is disgusted with Heaven's anthropocentrism. But he isn't really crazy, and he certainly isn't stupid. So, just as Gabriel has Soldekai to mind the shop, Jordi has three ministers to tend his Word: - Jehiel, Angel of Wild Animals, an Elohite - Behemial, Angel of Tame Animals, a Cherub - Mumiah, Angel of Health, a Mercurian (All three are taken from Davidson's "Dictionary of Angels.") These three are all very powerful Word-bound, just one grade below minor Superiors in power. Jordi is not really happy with any of them, but then that's inevitable; they are all there to handle the politics he despises, leaving him free to revel and brood over his Word, and plan for the time after Armageddon when he can start rebuilding the animal kingdom. Jehiel pushes Jordi's conservation agenda, but without the Archangel's ulcerating sense of frustration. Jehiel thinks in terms of ages and species and higher taxa. Jehiel works with Jean on projects like unto Jurassic Park. Jehiel remembers the Cretaceous extinctions, and knows that things aren't nearly that bad, yet; and nothing like as bad as the Permian extinctions. (Jehiel is very old.) Its favored vessel is a dragon -- an original, corporeal dragon, big as a horse, lean as a hound, no wings, no fire, but very bad spitting venom. It occasionally goes hunting the Marches for Tsayadim in this shape, and brings them (minus a few Forces) to its Archangel to ... play with. The Archangel is always more content, in a grim way, for quite a while afterward. Jordi feels Jehiel doesn't see how *awful* human civilization is, but what do you expect from an Elohite? Jehiel just counters with examples from terminte and wasp cultures. Behemiel pushes humane treatment of pets and livestock, of course, but she also orchestrates and inspires many of those incidents of valiant dogs, cats, horses, budgies, etc. that rescue their humans from burning buildings and assailants and dial 911. (Okay, the kung fu budgie was a little over the top, but hey.) That is, she has the animals serving the humans just as much as the other way around. Jordi feels very betrayed by this. On the other hand, getting the animals involved with humans this way has vastly increased the number of animals who acquire that scintilla of spiritual awareness that qualifies them for entry into Heaven, instead of disbandment or reincarnation or whatever it is that most often happens to animal souls. Jordi's Savannah would be much emptier without Behemiel's work. Behemiel's celestial form is that of a very large, golden-winged dog, like a golden St. Bernard. Mumiah is the one who has expanded the range of Jordi's Word the most. Just as Novalis took a Word about angiosperms and extended it to include peace and mercy, Mumiah has taken Animals and extended it to include health and fitness. Mumiah concerns himself almost entirely with humans, but does have an Angel of Vets working under him, and after all, his choir *are* the "Friends of Humanity." Mumiah runs a Heavenly school teaching the various Songs of Healing, and his angels work to help doctors, nurses, and health workers of all types. Mumiah cadges human vessels for his angels from other Archangels, in return for the healing work his folk do for the vessels and bodies of their angels, Saints, and Soldiers. If you want Jordi himself to be lighter, Jordi approves of all this as his Word's legitimate contribution to the human animal. Otherwise, Jordi would feel even more betrayed by Mumiah than he does by Behemial. Being a Kyrio, perhaps the Archangel feels both in different places. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:40:20 -0600 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: IN> Quick info request... Hiya, I was just wondering if anyone could tell me the Resonance and Dissonance conditions of Menunim and Pachadim? Not the actual game mechanics - I'm not going to be using them as PCs, and I don't want to infringe on SJG - just the general details on what they can and cannot do? thanks, Cthulhu _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:37:07 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> About: My Heretical Jordi - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > When I wrote up those alternate band write-ups, I had no > idea my alternate > version of Jordi would spark such debate. Looks like I > unwittingly woke up a sleeping List. ^^! If you wanna catch fish, you gotta use the right bait. };> > It wasn't until we discovered Herding that > our numbers > started to grow enough to sustain civilisations Not necessarily. Some authorities cite agriculture -- the ability to feed larger populations -- as being more important. > Tribes that herded > sedentary animals like bovines became sedentary, > city-building > civilisations, while those that herded migratory animals > like camels became nomadic civilisations. This is somewhat inaccurate. The truth is, any animal (except for sessile ones like sea anemones) will migrate if the food supply in its current habitat is depleted. As bovines ate the grass where they were, they moved on into places where the grass hadn't been eaten yet (hence the herds of buffalo that once roamed the American plains). As for camels, their supposed migratory habits stem entirely from how quickly supplies of food and water are exhausted in a given patch of desert; give a camel a steady supply of food and water and he'll stay put. > I believe a PROPER Archangel of Animals would NOT have > condemned Humanity > when it first developped it's differences, but would've > decided to teach the > Humans how to co-exist with the Environment. [snip] > My version of Jordi would only NOW be starting to develop > an anger focused > at Humanity's casual acceptance of Polluting Technology > and abusive attitude towards the exploitation of Animals. This does make more sense. Hopefully the expanded write-up will incorporate ideas like this. > But if just Jordi has spilled so much electronic ink... I > can't wait to see > how you react to my up-coming Heretical versions of > Gabriel and Belial. >=) I await them eagerly. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:41:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Quick info request... - --- Cthulhu wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone could tell me the > Resonance and Dissonance > conditions of Menunim and Pachadim? Both of these are badly oversimplified, but I believe that they'll serve your purpose. Menunim can inspire hope in mortals by their mere presence. It's Dissonant for them to offer advice or otherwise actively interfere in a mortal's life; Menunim must leave their charges to act on that newfound hope on their own. Pachadim can sense and play on a mortal's fears. Failing a Resonance roll to play on someone's fear causes Dissonance. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:55:33 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... > I'm sorry if this question has already been asked - I'm sure it likely has >been - but I couldn't find any answers in the FAQ or elsewhere. > > It is repeatedly stated that a being in a Corporeal Vessel is immune to >Celestial attacks... But what is conspiciously not said is whether or not a >being in a Vessel is prohibited from making Celestial attacks. Perhaps I am >misreading things, but it looks to me like a Celestial in a Vessel is >allowed to make Celestial attacks on a Celestial floating around without a >Vessel. Yep. In fact, the Celestial Song of Light, a fairly well-known Song, is probably the most common way for a Celestial in a Vessel to attack someone who's just gone Celestial, while remaining immune to Celestial damage themself. > Am I interperting this right? It makes being without a Vessel even more >dangerous - not only are you vulnerable to Celestial attacks, but you are >Vulnerable to Celestial attacks from people whom you can't retaliate. I'm >not sure if this is such a bad thing, but... On a similar topic, would you >allow Celestial Grappling by someone who is in a Vessel? This I wouldn't allow, no; celestial forms can pass right through solid matter, including living things like Vessels. >Certainly, you >still have to percieve them in order to attack them, and percieving a >Celestial form is a lot easier when you are also in Celestial form, but a >lot of the time Celestials will be able to spot someone in Celestial form >while they are in a Vessel, and proceed with the smackdown. > > On a related topic - and also one that I'm sure has been discussed before, >but since I'm sounding silly already - does anyone find that Soul-killing >happens at all in their games? My game is young; ask again later. :^) > Thanks for entertaining my foolishness. =) Not at all; good questions. >A. Wade Lahoda William ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:13:38 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... >Yep. In fact, the Celestial Song of Light, a fairly well-known Song, is >probably the most common way for a Celestial in a Vessel to attack someone >who's just gone Celestial, while remaining immune to Celestial damage >themself. And then there's the Celestial Song of Stone, from the *Liber Canticorum,* which enables you, or your chosen weapon, to hit something that's in celestial form while you're still wearing a vessel ... as hard as you can hit it corporeally. But it's limited to Servitors of Stone. Janet Anderson (playing a Servitor of Stone and my mouth started watering when I saw this Song) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2552 ********************************