in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 6 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2538 In this digest: IN> Who Created Who IN> Lilith and Asmodeus's love child Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 Re: IN> New Discord Re: IN> Lilith and Asmodeus's love child IN> Re:Deluge Background RE: IN> New Discord Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 RE: IN> New Discord IN> Fwd: What if the fall didn't happen? Re: IN> Fwd: What if the fall didn't happen? Re: IN> Fwd: What if the fall didn't happen? Re: IN> Lilith and Asmodeus's love child IN> Generic Title IN> Re:What if fall didn't happen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 01:15:51 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Who Created Who Actually I was under the impression that Malphas was the first Kyriotate. IMC the basic story was that Malphas the Archangel of Domination who grew Dillusioned with his role as a possesor of beings and control to instead develop more into a being who was focused on the individual aspects of creation. Malphas in effect even before Lucifer was perhaps the first philosopher of self but whether Lucifer put the idea into Malphas's head or Lucifer and Malphas merely fed on each other's ideas of selflessness versues selfishness Malphas did something that was almost completely unheard of an actively rejected completely his very word and nature. Becomming the first Shedim became a liberating experience for Malphas even as he continued to bear traces of his place as the Archangel of Domination but instead of such a title's methods for uniting beings he used the methodry to drive people further apart so they could ultimately look further within. As the only "Firborn Choir Archangel" to actually fall from Grace (Uriel, Michael, Eli, Gabriel, Raphael, and David of course not doing so....though the Cherubim have never quite recovered from David's transformation) the Kyriotates find themselves without a great deal of direction and focus on other aspects such as Multiplicity and Animality to try and occupy the whole in their nature caused by Malphas's defection. As for Jean I would dump the idea that Jean is a servitor of Yves right off the start and instead look at the fact that Jean is a being of intense energy, innovation, little emotion, and long range goals. Furthermore during storms Jean is a source of LIGHT. In the canon timeline Jean a non-archangel as far as I could tell helps Lucifer give humanity fire and thus my belief that Jean is a servitor of lucifer to begin with. Note also that because it's a source of fire it's possible he was a servant of Gabriel as well....I in fact I think I'll reverse myself and go with Jean is a former servant of Gabriel A REBELLIOUS one in this case. By giving humanity Fire Jean might have seen first hand the result of interfering with God's handiwork and thus speeding humanity far too quickly along the evolutionary food chain which also fits with the theme of Lucifer as Prometheus...with the added twist what was given has hurt us in the long run rather than helped us even as Jean struggles toundo (logically) what he failed to do so long ago. Beleth I think both Blandine and she had to share the same superiors because they ultimately seem like the exact sort of thing to come from such a place. Lucifer for both of them seems very appropriate as Dreams and Fear are both very human emotions. Another option would be that Blandine is a Creation of Eli (Dreams?) and Beleth is a child of Baal. Baal actually is highly appropriate because as the Archangel of Valor he is a being who quite naturally is devoted to the concept of overcomming fear. It also explains in part his hostility because he cannot understand why Beleth would torment humanity and it subconciously grates him. Raphael being an Archangel of Myth I think of course has to be created by God. Novalis I stick by my belief was a creation of David the First Cherub. In my humble opinion you can guess a great deal about who created who by their choir at least if they represent an aspect of that particular person in question. Hence my belief Zadkiel is to Novalis what Michael is to Laurence (and their Kid will be great) Janus and Oannes being elemental figures either I suspect were created by God or they were created by Eli working in tangent with Gabriel and David or perhaps alone (affairs anyone?) though technically I lean toward the idea that God through the Metatron created quite a few of these people...perhaps even conjuring forth the elemental superiors everytime something new came, word and all. Marc is definately a former servitor of Lucifer I put Dominic under Yves and Asmodeus a servitor of Raphael however because it fits thematically that Dominic is a being who is jUdgement to come to the conclusion of what is best for a man while Asmodeus is more about knowledge used to better oneself. Andrephalus I have as the first child of Blandine and Beleth's love which Eli assisted in the creation of and in effect was the first sexually (at least in a sense) born creature in the Universe. So at present God: David, Oannes, Gabriel, Janus (the Four elements), Lucifer, Michael, Baal, David, Eli, Raphael, Yves (God's avatar in my campaign), Metatron (God's more direct presence), Uriel, Malphas, Azrael, Song, Lilith Eli: Blandine, Kobal, Meserach, Kevin Smith Eli and Malphas: Jordi Jordi: Saminga, Makatiel (Disease is an animal before it is a Death creature) Eli and David: Novalis Baal: Beleth David: Magog, Christopher Blandine and Beleth donating forces together supervised by Eli (who promptly invented consensual sex for animals): Andrephalus Blandine and Beleth: Gebbeleth Lucifer: Marc, Beelzebub (Lucifer's major dormo), Mammon (under Marc) Lucifer and Gabriel: Jean Gabriel: Belial Belial: Demogorgon, Fufur, Gebnubath Yves: Dominic, Kronos (by Proxy), Mariel Oannes: Vephar Janus: Valephor (see Kronos) Raphael: Asmodeus Uriel: Laurence, Khalid, Papa Smurf Novalis: Zadkiel Saminga: Legion Meserach: Haagenti I think this more or less is a perfect geneology for Heaven/lilith and makes the most sense. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 01:44:31 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Lilith and Asmodeus's love child Ahriman Shedim of Lucifer Demon of Darkness Cor-6 (?) Eth-6 (?) Cel-6 (?) Word Forces: Unknown but presumably maxed out for a nonsuperior Skills, Songs, Attunements: We could list them personally but as part of his word (???) and the direct service to the Commander in Chief of Hell it would take a rather long time. As opposed simply assume that he has access to anything he really wants to at 6/ (if appliable) as long as any other being in the Symphony has that skill, attunement, or information. While using that ability the being Ahriman takes it from loses said ability or knowledge. Furthermore Ahrimane posseses the peculiar ability as a Shedim to extend his possession upon beings in their celestial form. Like all Shedim possessions the demons or angels do not understand that this is anything beyond them doing the act though they can be as horrofied or exalted as any mortal possesed by a shedim by the experience. Because it is so unexpected (and impossible to most scholars) most never think of the possibility of possesion. Depending on Ahrimane's power it's possible that he may even be able to possess Superiors. Ahriman is the child first of all of Asmodeus and Lilith whose passionate torrid affair mixed with their mutual love of evil caused the two willing participants to create their abominable offspring which mixed the understanding of mortals need to have command of their environment with their desire to be free of controls themselves while having none of their higher emotions that guide such a worldview but an appreciation of how both can distance one from the Almighty they both sought to flee. As one might imagine Asmodeus and Lilith's "love" eventually turned to bitter hate as their true natures manifested themselves but the creature born had already been scooped up and brought to the lower Hells where Lucifer took him on as a servant and as his personal "herald" and secret agent to bring about his will amongst Hell's heriarchy. In a very real way Ahrimane was to Lucifer what the Metatron had been to God. That changed when Lucifer sent Ahriman to counter the presence of a mortal named Zoraster's influence who had begun removing man from worshipping demons, angels, nephlim, sorcerers, and their own pathetic interpretations of what the divine might be like to the truth. Ahrimane considered the assignment beneath him and possesed the prophet which led to the most harrowing confrontation of their lives. The being who had never known good brought the man's soul spiralling through Hell and with every single vile image and horror he could in an attempt to break his will even as the mortal's own presence was reinforced by the power of the Almighty. Finally Ahrimane broke contact from dissonance and defeat while Zoraster walked away with knowledge no mortal had ever before possesed about the nature of Hell and it's horrors. Not only had the Divine plan provided man with lore of the Heavens such as Heaven's failed plan with Akkenton but it had informed man of the horrors that sought to devour them. After that day Ahrimane's appearences in the Courts of Hell grew less frequent and Lucifer began to make felt more his presence in Hell as a personal entity as opposed to a more distant demonic figure who rested his laurels in the Lower Hells, such a thing took a great deal of time and Lucifer was not openly acting such until approximately 33 BC but at that point Ahrimane himself dissapeared from Hell and it became common thought that the Demon was executed by Lucifer for his incompetance or imprisoned. Asmodeus and Lilith personally breathed a sighs of relief because their wayward child wove plots that's both their minds could only grasp part of the evil nature thereof. The truth is somewhat more complex and both are only begginning to recognize the M.O. which the clues have only begun to add up again over the past two thousand years. Appearing to Renegade Demons, Outcasts, Tsaydim, Grigori, Children of Grigori, Mortals, and supposadly a great deal of time in the presence of the Archangel Eli in one period Ahrimane's possesions are innocous things that leave lasting effects on the lives of beings that bring terrible calamity and great fortune. Both Demon Princes are unable to descern whether the pattern that is slowly forming (it seems completely random thus far but there IS a connection both are certain) is one of good, ill, law, chaos, or some form of permanent balance between the two that is changing the course of the Symphony's war forever...or if he's merely been regulated to setting up Lucifer's infernal interventions as punishment for screwing up with Zaphathustra. Never the less there is one thing that they are certain of....every year the appearences that are certainly his actions are growing more frequent. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 00:54:26 -0800 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) wrote: >>Dominic (Judgment) created by GABRIEL (?). > >Nah - Uriel, to have someone to explain how to others how to tell the >difference between the pure and the impure. Sounds reasonable to me. I think I'll run with that idea. The only nagging doubt I have is some odd memory about Uriel's servitors having a 'cannot fall' clause in their contract. Now I know that this cannot be canon or Khalid would have never been in danger of Falling. Anyone know of a canon basis for this weird idea or have I been reading too much fan fiction? Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Jean (Lightning) created by ELI (?). Lightning is both a primal force and an > >I think it's more implied in the APG that Jean and Raphael are creations >of Yves. Not outright stated, but implied. Now that you mention it, Yves does make a lot of sense as the creator of Jean. Mr. Ineffable One creates Mr. Ineffable Two. That and I can see how regulating knowledge and technology would be a method of promoting Destiny, or at least hampering Fate. - -- Vaughn - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - "Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather." Bill Hicks, Soldier of Fleurity or Soldier of Revelations? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:54:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Discord - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Odd Man Out (Celestial) Interesting, but... > Odd Man Out was quite rare before > the rise of Vapula. I disagree. Reality warping episodes happened plenty before Vapula was around; they just got more common and more dangerous. Before Vappie, reality warping episodes usually involved Eli. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:01:08 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Asmodeus's love child - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Ahriman > Shedim of Lucifer > Demon of Darkness A couple of quibbles with this: > Depending on Ahrimane's power it's possible > that he may even be able to possess Superiors. No way would I allow a non-Superior to do this; the Superior state change alone should be protection against it. If Ahriman were himself a Prince, he might be able to pull it off -- but the first time he tried it on Michael or David would be his last. That sort of violation is exactly the sort of thing that Superiors are willing to soul-kill each other over. > Ahriman is the child first of all of Asmodeus and Lilith > whose passionate > torrid affair mixed with their mutual love of evil Nowhere in canon does it say that Lilith loves evil. She loves _freedom_. While she's basically selfish, she's not on Hell's side so much as she is on her own side. Lilith serves Hell because she feels that it's in her best interests to do so, not because she loves evil. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:18:10 -0500 From: "Tyler Childers" Subject: IN> Re:Deluge Background First of all, thanks to everyone for thier feedback so far, it is very helpful. I did make a major glaring error in the write-up. Re:God in IN "canon" as an ethereal. That should have read something more like. In Deluge "canon", god is an Ascended Ethereal, meaning that the god Yahweh, transcended the ethereal and grew closer to Atziluth. This comes from my own religious background. I am a Pagan, myself, with strong leanings toward Wicca, Taosim, Zen, and Buddism. Religion as a whole fascinates me. But my own personal views is that all of us are correct. But that is neither here nor there. I am creating a game background, not a theological thesis. It is just, in my viewpoint, that the god of the Christians is just as important to me as the god(dess)s of the Celts, and other cultures. Respect is the key. As I said, enough pedagouge from me. I still have a little tweaking to do. The Archangels, as percieved as the Lords of the Elements by the Cabal is just that, a perception. They may be wrong, or right. I have another right up on the Cabal "default" changes for the Deluge coming up as time allows. But lets just say that the Grand Masters got more than they expected when they enter Atziluth. A whole lot more. Anyway,further comments are welcome and appreciated. Thanks again. Tyler _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:23:41 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> New Discord > In game terms, the most obvious manifestation of this > Discord is how it skews Interventions. At the > beginning of every game session, the GM secretly rolls > 666: the number rolled is the character's new > favorable Intervention roll, and the reverse is the > unfavorable Intervention. > > Thus, if the GM rolls 4,5 and CD2 for an angelic > character, then until further notice the player gets a > Divine Intervention on 4,5 and CD2 and an Infernal > Intervention on 2,1 and CD4. A PC with this Discord > must use three dice of different colors/sizes, in > order to distinguish between (to use the example > above) a roll of 4,5 and a roll of 5,4. The level of > Discord determines how many times per game session the > PC's Intervention numbers reset. > Incidentally, the GM is solemnly urged to not use the > excuse of a roll of 3,3 CD3 to make the poor PC's life > an exercise in insanity... I'm having trouble following the math here. From the initial description I would think that if the GM rolls 4,5,2 for Favorable, Unfavorable would be 3,2,5 not 2,1,4. 1 <-> 6; 2 <-> 5; 3 <-> 4. Given the scheme in the example there is nothing for 6 to reverse to. Using the scheme I just mentioned 333 would be nothing special, it would just reverse into 444. Brook ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:28:55 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 From: "Vaughn Romero" > > Sounds reasonable to me. I think I'll run with that idea. The only nagging > doubt I have is some odd memory about Uriel's servitors having a 'cannot > fall' clause in their contract. Now I know that this cannot be canon or > Khalid would have never been in danger of Falling. Khalid was no longer serving Uriel when he became an Archangel, and thus no longer protected by his former master's Word. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:35:04 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:28:55 -0600 >From: "Vaughn Romero" > > Sounds reasonable to me. I think I'll run with that idea. The only > >nagging doubt I have is some odd memory about Uriel's servitors > having a >'cannot fall' clause in their contract. Now I know that > this cannot be >canon or Khalid would have never been in danger of > Falling. >Khalid was no longer serving Uriel when he became an Archangel, and thus no >longer protected by his former master's Word. Wasn't there also something in David's Uriel writeup that hinted that maybe the reason Uriel's servitors had 'Cannot Fall' was not because of inherent Word-protection, but because carrying more than one note (or in extremis, maaaaaaaybe two notes) of dissonance was a capital crime for Servitors of Purity? IOW, Uriel was merely fanatically vigilant about purging the ranks of his Servitors of even the *slightest* Falling risks? - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:32:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Who made who? Part 1 At 12:54 AM -0800 2/5/02, Vaughn Romero wrote: >jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) wrote: >>>Dominic (Judgment) created by GABRIEL (?). >> >>Nah - Uriel, to have someone to explain how to others how to tell the >>difference between the pure and the impure. > >Sounds reasonable to me. I think I'll run with that idea. The only nagging >doubt I have is some odd memory about Uriel's servitors having a 'cannot >fall' clause in their contract. A: they can jump. B: they can stop being Servitors (as Khalid and Laurence both have; they are now attuned to their _own_ Words, and do not have the former protections of the Word of Purity...). And C: dissonance tended to get _frowned_ upon, so there were few who were in danger in the first place... >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>>Jean (Lightning) created by ELI (?). Lightning is both a primal force and >an >> >>I think it's more implied in the APG that Jean and Raphael are creations >>of Yves. Not outright stated, but implied. > >Now that you mention it, Yves does make a lot of sense as the creator of >Jean. Mr. Ineffable One creates Mr. Ineffable Two. And Ms. Ineffable Three. Or possibly Ms. Ineffable Two and Mr. Ineffable Three. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:53:44 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: RE: IN> New Discord - --- Brook Freeman wrote: > I'm having trouble following the math here. From > the initial description I > would think that if the GM rolls 4,5,2 for > Favorable, Unfavorable would be > 3,2,5 not 2,1,4. I believe that the proper response to that would be for me to say "D'OH!" and hit my head with my palm. Oh, well, that's why I post this stuff... :) Moe "The triple 3 rule stays in effect, though, 'cuz it's just an in-joke" Lane ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:17:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: What if the fall didn't happen? >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:03:00 -0600 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Sam Kington ] >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 04:02:23 +0000 >Subject: What if the fall didn't happen? >From: Sam Kington > >Hi, > >I don't think any of my players are on this list, but if they are, well, >shoo. > >My angels are about to enter a parallel world where the Fall did not happen. >This means there are no demons; there are no Malakim or Grigori; Laurence is >not an Archangel; etc. The GMG should fill you on other details. > >To be precise, the Fall did not happen because Adam and Eve did *not* eat >the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. They decided they were happy as they >were, and since then humans have lived side by side with angels for, well, >as long as they can remember. Humans were not elevated above angels, and >whatever is written in the Koran did not happen. > >This means that, in this equivalent of the late 20th century, there is no >FedEx - because there are Ofanim. The poor buy insurance; the rich retain >Cherubim. It means that, as well as unborn children being scanned by >ultrasound for deformities, newly-born children are scanned by Servitors of >Destiny for Destiny and Fate - and nobody will blame a parent afraid of the >Fate of its child for choosing to have the child killed, reincarnated, and >hopefully brought back to life with a more clement Fate, or an easier >Destiny. > >(Humans outgrew the Garden of Eden eventually, but it still exists, as a >sort of tourist attraction. Although the original Tree of Knowledge is out >of bounds, and even more so the Tree of Life, replicas are available and are >regularly visited by school children.) > >It means that you can ask your local angel for news of your aged aunt >Mildred, if she achieved her Destiny. OTOH, it also means that anybody who >thinks they might be cheated by a contract some lawyer wants to make them >sign, can check it with an Angel of Marc. > >I'm very interested in what happens to the human mind if humans do not know >the difference between good and evil - which I think is the case here. Adam >and Eve, acting for the human race as a whole, chose to stay comfortable in >the Garden of Eden, and not know the difference between Good and Evil. This >means they have a whole bunch of helpful Angels around (although the Angels >have their own things to do on occasion), and, for instance, women don't >have to suffer pain during childbirth. (Can anyone with more biblical >knowledge remind me of other consequences of *not* being thrown out of the >Garden of Eden?) OTOH, it means that humans are remarkably stunted. > >I think this means that the only way humans, in this world, have for >estimating things is the very Utilitarian test: is this agreement fair? >(Bear in mind that they have angels that can tell them whether anything is >fair or not.) While this leads to a perfectly reasonable world, it lacks in >- well, *oomph*, for want of a better word. > >This world has no robber barons, because they're bound by laws that say that >you can't swindle unless angels let you do so. (I'm assuming here that >angels don't know good and evil *either*, so they wouldn't be due to fall >either.) OTOH, it has no Robin Hood, no Karl Marx, no Ralph Nader. Sure, you >don't get humans that are seriously depraved (e.g. Hitler, Pol Pot, David >Koresh), but I think it also means you don't get seriously enlightened >huamsn either (e.g. Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, here>). > >I think there is no such thing as true love (or for that matter love at >all), because love requires you to consider someone else as at least, if not >more, important that yourself, which is clearly nonsensical and unfair. I >think it means that poverty, if it arose because of your own mistakes, is >both justified and required; there is no charity for those that have failed. >In this world, beggars in the street will not be abused, but they will be >required to perform if they want to get paid. > >Oooh, another thing: Ethereals are effectively indistinguishable from stage >actors in this world. Odysseus performs at one of the most popular stage >shows every evening, and *every evening* he manages to escape Scylla *and* >Charybdis. If he didn't, people would stop believing in him, and he'd stop >getting the Essence (also known as: he would stop appearing in the major >theatres.) > >I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm very interested in >people's comments. Basically: does this work? > >Sam >-- >Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ >The In Nomine cookbook: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/innomine/ > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:23:14 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: What if the fall didn't happen? (Can anyone with more biblical >>knowledge remind me of other consequences of *not* being thrown out of the >>Garden of Eden?) snip Well... humans don't have to work the earth in order for it to be fertile (no farmers). and snakes have legs. And possibly arms. Oh, and no death. Probably. Maybe. Depending on the version you read. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:36:59 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: What if the fall didn't happen? But wait... Wasn't the whole point in Canon Eden that the angels couldn't keep from interfering, which God didn't want them to do? So wouldn't this world be a perfect one from the perspective of... oh... I don't know... SATAN!? I mean, Lucifer? Josh (Remember, the Dana Carvey "Churchlady" skit... the one with the old lady... and how she says... oh forget it...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:13:06 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Asmodeus's love child - --- Michael Walton wrote: > > Ahriman is the child first of all of Asmodeus and > Lilith > > whose passionate > > torrid affair mixed with their mutual love of evil > > Nowhere in canon does it say that Lilith loves > evil. Oh, come _on_, Michael. I think /that/ particular issue pretty much went through the window right from the start. If there's ANY way that the mere concept of "Lilith and Asmodeus' love child" can slip into canon, then I have this *wonderful* Princess - err, 'Archangel' - for the LE's perusal...* ;) Moe *No, not a new one. Hey! Turn those frowns upside down, all you Mr. Grumpys... :) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:11:48 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Generic Title Comments welcome. I _do_ so like getting in certain AA's heads: whether I've succeeded is, as always, subject to debate. ;) Moe [Blank] and the Female Gender There have always been angels to whom gender has been a bit irrelevant: quite a few, in fact. Indeed, it is somewhat interesting that there are angels with a dominant gender identity, considering that their species has a reproductive cycle that barely qualifies as 'sexual'. Many (if not most) of the Host were created either fully fledged, or else evolved from a, well, larval form: one would expect that they would treat gender as just another aspect of vessel/Role maintenance. The fact that gender is relevant to many of them can only be ascribed to human influence (some angels would mutter, 'bad example'), coupled with (or 'exacerbated by') corporeal experience. Even the most rudimentary vessel is usually deliberately crafted to simulate standard corporeal biochemical emotional drives, as it has been found that not having them is often fatal for those attempting to maintain a Role or even keep a low profile. Indeed, the limiting factor is the celestial itself: most angels simply cannot handle the complex biochemical soup of emotions and drives that the average human routinely deals with every day. Of the currently active Choirs in Heaven, the Elohim are probably best at handling this perennial problem: the Mercurians would dispute this, but it can be argued that the Friends of Man are the worst at working around inappropriate emotional reactions. Being so close to the humans that they are simulating, they are most prone to sharing human motivations: the Mercurians' unique problem is that they often cannot rise above their innate bias. To an Elohite, all sensations or states of being are the same: of interest, but never to be allowed to affect one's judgement, no matter how fundamental these sensations or states might be. This includes gender, of close. All of which explains why Jean finds the various reactions to 'his' increasing tendency to appear on Earth in female form to be inappropriate, at best. The Archangel of Lightning has excellent reasons for such a change in methodology, of course. First of all, Jean recognizes that, while 'he' has no lingering gender issues, other celestials do. While Jean may not particularly care whether the entity that 'he' is currently communicating is male, female or neuter, others do not share 'his' detachment - and that the prelude to efficient communication is to have a medium conducive to it. If that requires trivial changes in feature and body type, then so be it: it is infinitely easier for Jean to change 'his' form than it is for others to shed their prejudices, it seems. Second, Jean has found that appearing in female form has increased the overall efficiency of 'her' female Soldiers and Saints by a significant portion, without a corresponding drop in efficiency among 'her' male Soldiers and Saints. It is in the Archangel of Lightning's best interest to encourage the proper intellectual development of the human race whenever possible: one obvious avenue is to fully eliminate the odd human habit of under-educating 50% of their available population. Even leaving out the dubious morality of such behavior, humanity can hardly afford the loss of efficiency. Jean recognizes that assuming a female guise should make no perceptible difference - but it does, and Elohim do not argue with what works. If appearing as a woman will positively affect a Soldier's attempts to identify more fully the Word and principles of Lightning, then Jean will appear as a woman. The effort is trivial and the result significant. Third (and most interesting), Jean has noted the effect that a regular appearance in female form has upon the Enemy. Many demons apparently consider this new behavior pattern to be an indication that the Archangel of Lightning is beginning to lose 'her' equilibrium: this has resulted in widespread attempts to further the process through various types of temptations. While this belief is, of course, deeply flawed, it has had at least one positive result. After all, it is difficult to provide a temptation at a distance - but attempting to do so directly invariably results in the immediate destruction of the would-be experimenter. Jean is quite interested in seeing how long it will take for Hell to work this out. Indeed, at this present time Jean is beginning to speculate on changing 'his' default gender to female: if present trends are any indication, the result will be a small, yet significant, positive change in the efficiency levels of 'her' Word and various workers. The change in Jean's efficiency levels, of course, would remain unchanged: thus, logically, there is no real reason not to, at least on a temporary basis. Of course, there's also the fact that, as a female, the Archangel of Lightning could finally start singing mezzo-soprano pieces without every male human in earshot wincing in sympathy... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:06:45 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Re:What if fall didn't happen >Well... humans don't have to work the earth in order for it to be fertile >(no farmers). >and snakes have legs. And possibly arms. > >Oh, and no death. Probably. Maybe. Depending on the version you read. Ah but what about cain killing abel? That might lead to an inserection amongst some of the angels.. Angel: "But lord god, Why must they kill? are they mere animals?" Metatron: "FREE WILL HAS ITS PRICE, THEY CHOSE TO STAY IN THE WARMTH OF MY LOVE, THEY CHOSE TO KEEP THEMSELVES ABOVE ANIMALS AND BELOW ANGELS, IS TIME A MURDERER? IS A FALL A MURDERER?" Angel: "but lord, they chose to kill in the womb, if they do not want the temptation of thier child succuming to fate they kill them, to make them selves feel better, reguardless of the child" Metatron: "..." Angel: "My lord, they kill, they lie, they cheat, they steal, marcs servitors are stretched to the very edges as they are so required to keep humanity in check, I cannot accept this, it goes against your love of them, they are destroying them selves, they are destroying the planet with thier ignorance, They Must Be Taught" *angel, now known as jean then slays metatron, and flees to the furthest parts of heaven to plot and plan, luring many on to his side, including gabriel who has seen the cruelty and knows it needs punishing, including Uriel who has seen the impurity of the humans, including many others. Soon the angel now known as David fights jean, earth against lightening, and the earth shook and a new type of angel was found in hell...* Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2538 ********************************