in_nomine-digest Monday, May 20 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2647 In this digest: Re: IN> IN. Guildhall of the Free Lilim RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... RE: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. IN> My Buddy Ethereal Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> My Buddy Ethereal RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:22:01 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN. Guildhall of the Free Lilim At 9:56 AM -0400 5/18/02, BC Petery wrote: >>(Imagining a SF/F/Shriner's/Tailhook convention that never ends. >>Oh! The cleaning bills!) > >So... Who does clean the rooms? Damned souls; Guildhall work is relatively cushy. (The Lilim in charge of the place don't want to abuse the help so much that the help runs away (and Lilith has words with sloppy Lilim Management about the mess), and they don't want to let other demons abuse the help because that implies the Lilim Management is weak. So it's good work, if you can get it. On the other hand, if you goof off, they'll get a Calabite to bounce you out of the place sooooo fast...) >Do they need cleaning? Probably some of them do, especially after Those Parties... >And what happens if a >forgetful demon leaves an artifact in the room? No lost & found here. Pay >Lilith a Geas to get your gear back. Or find the Lilim who's got it. Cheaper, but more work. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 14:56:50 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... At 9:04 PM -0500 5/17/02, Gregg Forge wrote: >> > THAT part remains, for lack of a better term, not-so-spelled >out; by >>MY reading, he demands, which is nothing more than a >rather vocal and >>emphatic request. >> >>*ahem* From my reading of it, which, er, hopefully has some value... > > Well, at the peril of disrepect, DUH! :) We -can't- argue with > ye. At least, in regards to canon. Though I -would- consult > on the question of whether an interpretation is possible, or > absolutely not. Oh, sure. And, well, if people don't _like_ my answer, they can change it. And, as any author should be, I must remain aware of the possibilities of other interpretations... >>The semantics are important. He requests it, he does not _command_ it. > > Oh, yes! I agree with that! However, his request comes with rather >thinly (or not, depending on campaign) veiled overtones, which would imply a >question of one's loyalty to the cause of Heaven. Oh, of course they could! This is, however, an interpretation. I mean, there's.. LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. LILIM: I don't want to work for him! LAURENCE: Judgment, arrest this Lilim! She needs re-education! or... LAURENCE: Motion to have the Lilim placed in my service. LILIM: I don't want to work for him! DOMINIC: She's scared spitless of you, Laurence. LAURENCE: Drat that BalProp anyway! Motion that she be placed with, er, Michael. NOVALIS: Motion that she be _asked_. LAURENCE: *heavy sigh* Fine, fine, see where she'll be happiest. > I will clearly note that >such is not IN the book; there's still loose enough interpetation room for >HOW his requests come across. As there should be... O:> >>This means that the request is as strident or calm as the GM wills, >>and is obeyed as much or little as the GM wills. If the GM is running >>IN backwards, then OF COURSE the runt with the Sword always gets his >>Lilim, and you don't want to know what he does with them... (See Tattered >>for even more on this, or the BalProp (ask in email, state you are >>18+).) >> > Whoa, whoa, whoa...now, I'm not THAT vicious about his requests! Well, >actually...er, no. Still, even in a regular setting, Laurence will have >-very- well thought-out, enumerated, lengthy document of why he should get >them, almost to the point of (in a more comedic campaign) going the Lt. Fuzz >route (for those who read Beetle Bailey). But of course. >>If the GM is running IN very black and white, then the request >>is more along the lines of an information point: "Please see if the >>new angel would be willing to join my organization; Princes are so >very >>feudal, she may not realize she has a choice. Of _course_ she >can come >>over for a 'trial period' to see if she gets along here." > > I like that approach, actually. However, I also would see that any >attempt to refuse the request, given some of the issues that Laurence has >had in the past with cooperation, it could be taken as an affront if he were >to be outright refused. In a brighter campaign: Seraph and Elohite resonance should tell him things like, "Not only does she not think she'd do well in your sevice, the TRUTH is that she'd be miserable, get dissonant a lot, and Fall like a stone." O:> So he mutters in the back of his head... In a darker campaign: "Judgment! Arrest this Lilim! She is insufficiently devoted to the causes of Heaven!" > I don't think of Laurence as being >super-thin-skinned; given some of the opinions held about him, I see him >being rather no-nonsense, occasionally to excesses. Of couse, that's >another thing left more than a little open to interpretation. And it's true enough that he tends to think of angels more as chess-pieces than quirky creatures (as humans are); see Sup1. This is what keeps him asking, even after however-long-the-GM-believes-it's-been worth of having the Council say "No!" at him. (The Council doesn't have the Master of the Armies of God Distinction -- HE does. O:> ) >>In either case, it is, indeed, a REQUEST. Not a demand, not a >command. >>It's a bit of plot to be embroidered on or given a cursory glance and >>tossed to one side ("After weeks of deliberation, >you are assigned to X. >>We resume the game in the coffee shop, >afterhours, discussing the latest >>assignment from Joiel's immediate superior."), as the needs of the plot, >>campaign, and player dictate. > > Alright. As it is so noted quasi-officially, I will at least concede the >point, as by the ruling it's a request; not a subtley implied order, or a >political leaning, but a simple request, leaving all other potential >subtleties, subterfuges, and skullduggery to further interpretation as >needed. Bingo. O:> The darker the game, the more it's a "request" with lots of Heavy Meaning. >> >>[...] >> > Good point, and one that I had underestimated; while the >Seraphin >>Council is the oldest, wisest organization of >Judgement, Wib, wub, didn't see this. Since when did you think the Seraphim Council was an extension of JUDGMENT? The Council is, er, the Council -- all the Archangels and the oldest and wisest of the Seraphim and other Choirs. Dominic isn't running it. [...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:15:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations At 7:12 AM -0700 5/19/02, Arovyn wrote: >I was wondering what the relations between all of the so-called-Minor >Superiors was to everyone else. I can make some inferences, but I'm still >curious. When a Minor Superior shows up in one of the Superiors books, it gets its Pro and Con relations to the Majors (and any other Minors in that book) detailed. O:> So far, that's been Khalid, Alaemon, Fleurity, and Mammon. (Leaving Zadkiel, Litheroy, and Christopher to go. And maybe Magog and Furfur, depending.) Till they show up in print, I don't think there's a canon answer. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:03:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... At 8:28 PM +0000 5/18/02, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>>2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for >>>invoking their Balseraphic resonance? >> >>Because a Seraph knows TRUTH, and a Balseraph tries >>to _make_ truth. So the Bal resonates and then the >>Seraph side of him says, "You LIAR!" and bam, he's >>got self-contradiction and eats dissonance. [...] >Or was this canon decision based on game-play reasons rather than >metaphysical ones? Actually, it was made a while back (I'd have to dig in my email records to see if there were any discussion), before I was LE. (Otherwise there would be NO CHECK DIGIT TABLES in the APG! MUAHAHAHAHAHA! Ahem.) I'm just going by the one line in the APG about it, and trying to extrapolate. If whoever winds up expanding Kronos' writeup has a better idea, I'll listen. Or at least, the current metaphysics behind it will be explained better. I strongly suspect _SOME_ kind of 'this is not a good interaction' ruling will remain/be made, since the idea of a BalSeraph is kind of like a Shedite of the Sword. The concepts just don't mix well. O:> But till then, I'd rather not go around errata'ing it gratuitiously. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:11:24 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Lucifer's Word This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20032.22856ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" - -----Original Message----- From: JamesStein [mailto:JamesStein@si.rr.com] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:20 PM . Considering Life a stronger word (personal opinion), and Temptation falling under it... I think that the devil might easily have the word of Life. Just pondering how this would screw with the Novalines, who are always against taking lives... - -- - -------------------------------------------------------- Or maybe the word of "Living" which could be easily twisted into the more selfish aspects of being alive. DS1 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20032.22856ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: JamesStein [mailto:JamesStein@si.rr.com] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:20 PM . Considering Life a stronger word (personal opinion), and Temptation falling under it... I think that the devil might easily have the word of Life. Just pondering how this would screw with the Novalines, who are always against taking lives... -- -------------------------------------------------------- Or maybe the word of "Living" which could be easily twisted into the more selfish aspects of being alive. DS1 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20032.22856ED0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:34:46 +0100 From: DAMIEN MCGURRELL Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word I'm prone to think his word would of been Truth. It gives the players headaches and explain the whole prince of lies title. Also being the first Balseraph I would have thought it appropriate. Yours, Damien http://www.sleepinggod.dot.nu " It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them! " --Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:38:36 +0100 From: DAMIEN MCGURRELL Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word > >I'm prone to think his word would of been Truth. Plus now that I think about it this would explain how he gives out words, leaving me with the idea he could still be searving truth in his own way with the war. Being a balseraph means truth is what he makes it. Yours, Damien http://www.sleepinggod.dot.nu "Violence is the last refuge of the ignorent." --- Issac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:39:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word W S wrote: > > I've actually given a good bit of thought to this, > along with a couple of my friends. We've come up with > a couple of canidates. [...] > E) God/the Symphony. I think this is very interesting, and does indeed offer a plausible reason how he could give Words and do other things usually reserved for God alone. It's VERY plausibly the Word he'd WANT. Of course, there remains the question of how he GOT that Word, since, normally, one is Word-stripped on Falling, and his original Word, in canon, was Light. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:44:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Shih Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. > > LILIM: I don't want to work for him! > > LAURENCE: Judgment, arrest this Lilim! She needs > re-education! or... LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. LILIM: I don't want to _work_ for him, but I wouldn't mind being in a position under him... LAURENCE: You know you want to put it in your campaign, right? Jennifer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... > If whoever winds up expanding Kronos' writeup has a > better idea, I'll listen. > Or at least, the current metaphysics behind it will > be explained better. I > strongly suspect _SOME_ kind of 'this is not a good > interaction' ruling will > remain/be made, since the idea of a BalSeraph is > kind of like a Shedite of > the Sword. The concepts just don't mix well. O:> > Mmm... Shedite of the Sword... *ahem* :) Maybe if the BalSeraph got dissonant whenever they failed a resonance check- wither by their own Resonance failing, OR if it's resisted. I can easily see the Seraphic Internal Censor thwacking the Balseraph when /it/ notices a lie, even if the Balseraph itself disagrees and gets /very/ confused about it's new dissonance. I agree, it shouldn't take much to crack their personal Symphonies- but if they successfully make something true, then a gulled Seraph believes the Balseraph over what their own Resonance tells them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:11:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word On Mon, 20 May 2002, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Of course, there remains the question of how he GOT that Word, > since, normally, one is Word-stripped on Falling, and his > original Word, in canon, was Light. > > Earl Myself, I've always like the word of Darkness for Lucifer, if he even has one (he may not -- in some campaigns, he could be elevated beyond the Superior level, approaching the level of God. As far as I know, God doesn't have/need a Word, and Lucifer can mimic a lot of what only God was thought be able to (interventions, word-binding, etc). So maybe Lucifer doesn't need one either.) Darkness, besides being Light's opposite and making sense of the "Prince of Darkness" title, evokes a good deed of strong imagery. It wasn't called 'Heart of Darkness' for nothing. Most human cultures associate Darkness with Bad Things in general. One might say that almost all evil is associated with Darkness. Which would mean that every Word-bound of Hell, while promoting his own word, is actually promoting Darkness at the same time (which might go a long way into explaining Lucifer's power). Darkness, as a Word, is very encompassing, and most other Hellish Words could be placed under it. As for how he got the word, there are a couple theories that come to mind. One is that, as the first Balseraph, he convinced himself he was capable of granting Words, and somehow God/the Symphony supported his delusion. Another is that several of the first born angels (Yves, Micheal, Eli, Uriel, Lucifer) always had the ability to grant Words, and still do, and just don't advertise it (Micheal's saving his secret word-bound for a special occasion). Another possibility is that Lucifer was granted his word by God just after the Fall, and God gave him the ability grant words then. Why? Well, we must suppose God has reasons for it, but He ain't talking. Another possibility ( I rather like this one ) is that Lucifer CAN'T grant words at all. Every time a demon gets a word from Lucifer, Lucifer (in his own way) is actually requesting that God grant the word, like the Seraphim Council does. And God grants the request, either for His own reasons or out of love for His lost angel, whom He hopes to show the folly of his ways by giving him exactly what he asks for. Perhaps Lucifer's final conversation with Metatron had something to do with it. Whatever the reason, Lucifer asked God for his word after the Fall, and has to ask God for every word he grants. How galling, then, would it be for Lucifer to always have to ask for God's help in waging war on Heaven? How disasterous would it be for him if the other demons found out where their Words were coming from? How upseting would it be to Heaven if the truth came out? Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word [snip] > In Lilith's case, at least, canon isn't clear on > whether > or not it was even Lucifer who did it. Canon > already tells > us (albeit indirectly) that Humans can grant Words > -- > that's how all Worded Ethereals got them. [snip] Er... Worded Ethereals? In Cannon? Is this an EPG thing, or should I hit my books again? Also, I just thought of something... There seems to be a continuity problem. 1. Lilith walks out on Eden. 2. Lucy meets Lil while the former is still an Archangel. They chat, Lucy is his Very Charming Self. 3. The Revolution Happens. Lucifier and Company are punted into Hell when the doors were still shut. 4. Lucifier gives Lilith a Word and Princedom in exchange for helping the Rebels to escape. 5. Lilith works to form Tethers so that the Hoarde can get out of Hell. Er... How did Lucifier get out of Hell to give Lilith her Word (if Wording happened as is believed in Cannon) and her Princessdom if he couldn't leave Hell because he needed her to let them out and my eyes have just gone all crossed... ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:33:12 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word >From: W S >Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word >Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) [snip] >Er... How did Lucifier get out of Hell to give Lilith >her Word (if Wording happened as is believed in >Cannon) and her Princessdom if he couldn't leave Hell >because he needed her to let them out and my eyes have >just gone all crossed... ;) Erm? I'd thought it was: 1) Lucifer asks Lilith to let them out. (Presumably, he used some kind of Song to be able to talk to her on the corporeal plane while his butt was stuck in Hell.) 2) Lilith says "What's in it for me?" 3) Lucifer says "The Word of Freedom and etc, etc." [much, much muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch negotiating later] 4) Lilith -- "Deal." 5) Lilith works and opens the first Tether. (Being human, her actions can open Tethers... this is part of why Lilith survives as a Superior despite her low power level, she's the only Superior who can do the neat "human-only" things like affect Tether formation, or do whateverdamnthingshewants without any Disturbance, or...) 6) Demons rush out and have lots of fun. 7) Lucifer, now free, goes over to Lilith and pays up. 8) Lilith, Human Princess of Freedom, is now on the scene. Alternatively, Lucifer somehow got himself into the Marches (it was only the Corporeal Plane he was sealed away from, right?) and him and Lilith hashed the whole thing out in her dreamscape. Humans dream, too. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:39:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Ryan M Roth wrote: > Another possibility ( I rather like this one ) is that Lucifer > CAN'T grant words at all. Every time a demon gets a word from > Lucifer, Lucifer (in his own way) is actually requesting that God > grant the word [...] How galling, then, [...] I like that one even better than Lucifer having the Word "God" or "Symphony." It doesn't have the boot-up problems, and it reminds me of: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:7 Ear ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:51:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... At 12:44 PM -0700 5/20/02, Jennifer Shih wrote: >--- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. >> >> LILIM: I don't want to work for him! >> >> LAURENCE: Judgment, arrest this Lilim! She needs >> re-education! > >or... > >LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. > >LILIM: I don't want to _work_ for him, but I wouldn't >mind being in a position under him... > >LAURENCE: > >You know you want to put it in your campaign, right? *snicker* Alas, every Lilim in our campaigns who's actually caught a glimpse of him has not found either the courage (for the "horn sisters") or a way to express the profound respect they feel in offering the proposition (for the "wing sisters")... And then there's the one who'd just want to _talk_ to him... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 17:20:41 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > > Disturbingly enough, this isn't the first time I've heard or thought of the phrase "psychologists are deployed" for IN. It seems like, whenever one of Michaels (many) head strong servitors gets busted by Judgement for creating to much Disturbance, Michael wants to turn to his Associated Archangels for help - since only his Mercurians are really suited for legal work. I really picture all of Laurence's Angels, even those who aren't just swords on legs, as being in the military mindset. "We have an accusation of Pride in quadrant fifteen A! Get me an Seraph Lawyer and an Elohite Psychologist, STAT! By God, where's my legal assistant backup?" In return, Michaels Angels show up to fix Laurence's screwed up combat plans every few centuries:) Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:46:40 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... >If whoever winds up expanding Kronos' writeup has a better idea, I'll listen. >Or at least, the current metaphysics behind it will be explained better. I >strongly suspect _SOME_ kind of 'this is not a good interaction' ruling will >remain/be made, since the idea of a BalSeraph is kind of like a Shedite of >the Sword. The concepts just don't mix well. O:> >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ Hmm. Okay, look... Even Balseraphs believe that they *themselves* are objectively real; it's everything else that is subject to their whims. They can even adjust their own memories and feelings ("I never really expected them to rescue me anyway"), but then that is the Bal's new "self." That's why they are still selfish, rather than complete nihilists. Thus, when a Balseraph uses his resonance to lie -- or, in his own mind, "change truth" -- there is still a core Balseraph that knows what's going on, and will reassert itself when any resonances wear off, or when convenient for the Bal to have access to a certain set of memories, skills, personality traits, etc. This is the stable, core self which contains the knowledge that conflicts with the Bal's resonance, and inflicts dissonance on a BalSeraph when it uses its Balseraph resonance to impose truth on a resisting Symphony. It bends a Seraph out of shape to claim what IS NOT when it knows better. Now, this is guesswork, pure and simple. It does rely on the notion of a stable core to a Balseraph's being -- the stuff you could write down on a character sheet, as one description. It's up to y'all to decide how well it works with the IN setting. William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:07:45 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: IN> The Angel of Hate. Love is widely regarded as one of the most selfless emotions. Hate and Love are widely taken as two sides of the same coin. Hate /can/ be a selfless emotion, just as Love can be a selfish emotion. Ergo... Osor, the Angel of Hatred, Outcast Malakite of Faith Once, there was Elohite of Love. Like many of his kind, the Rebellion came as a geniune shock to him. Unlike many of his kind, he did not twist his nature and continue to serve his former master. The anger boiled up inside of him, however- the rage, the utter hatred at what his fellows had become. And he knew, with the perfect objectivity that only an Elohite can have, that the hatred was /right/. Osor became, in that moment, a Malakite. After the Rebels were cast out, Osor transfered his service to Uriel, the greatest of the Malakites. And he swore to never, ever forgive the Fallen until every last one of them had repented or died. He lost himself in his hatred, and it flowed through him, guiding his every action and word. When the Diabolicals broke free, he was one of the first sent to Earth, sent to destroy the object of his hatred. He was extremely succesfull. Noisy, unsubtle, violent- but succesful. And his hatred continued to rule his actions, checked only by his love of God and the direct command of Uriel. He always felt a special rage towards the Habbalah, the deluded mockeries that he had nearly become. One day, the former servitor of Love petitioned the Seraphim Council for the Word of Hatred. He would be the true bringer of divine punishment, unlike the Punishers. There was a long debate- Dominic and Novalis were both firmly against granting him the Word. Osor won them both over- the former by convincing Dominic of his /utter/ inability to Fall (being both a Malakite and an Angel of Purity), and the later by demonstrating that peace could easily breed envy, hatred and 'polite' strife just as well as war- hatred was not limited to violence. There were other objections, but with those two opponents now in agreement, Osor was soon granted the Word. He continued with the good work. His Hatred remained a relativly pure thing, a righteous wrath directed only at the enemies of God. However, something... unexpected happened. Osor was working with Khalid, recently granted the Word of Faith, and witnessed divine religions... fighting. One another, and within themselves. They /hated/ one another, with a passion that rivaled his own. Osor and Khalid talked about this for a long time, although they resolved little. Still, Osor decided to continue with Khalid- if nothing else, divine religions attracted an inordinate amount demonic influence to purge. And, later, he converted to Islam with Khalid- despite his Superior's conversion to Christanity. When Uriel was recalled to the Higher Heavens, Osor refused to serve Laurence. Instead, he remained out with Khalid... and slowly, ever so slowly, became increasingly discordant. He felt the dishonor of abandoning his previous post, but didn't care- he blamed everything on the Infernals, manifesting discords that reinforced his new psychosis. Khalid, slowly slipping into fantasicism himself, didn't notice the change. Now that Khalid has rejoined the Host proper, Osor's mental problems have been brought to light. He has vanished somewhere in Iran, and multiple Judgement triads have been dispatched after him. Dominic's inital reservations seem only too true- Osor seems to be tettering on a Fall. And Malphas, somewhere, is cackling. - --- Stats to come later :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:22:58 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. W S wrote: > > Love is widely regarded as one of the most selfless > emotions. > Hate and Love are widely taken as two sides of the > same coin. > Hate /can/ be a selfless emotion, just as Love can be > a selfish emotion. Sorry, I don't buy it. Hatred is the very antithesis of selflessness, and genuine love (as opposed to infatuation or lust) is never selfish. Certainly angels can hate, just as demons can love -- but any angel who lets himself be dominated by hatred is heading for a Fall (just as no demon who allows love to sway him can continue serving Hell effectively). I simply cannot imagine Hatred as a divine Word, nor can I imagine Novalis being persuaded by any argument that it should be. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 17:04:13 -0800 From: "Brian Rogers" Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. When I was but a wee lad in Catholic school, one of the nuns pointed out that hatred, properly directed, could be a good thing, i.e. hating the devil, hating evil, etc. I do tend to agree with Edelstein, though. A better name for it would be Righteous Anger, or something similar. There is probably an Angelic Word for "Hatred of things that deserve to be hated, because they are bad." Brian - ----- Original Message ----- From: David Edelstein > W S wrote: > > > > Love is widely regarded as one of the most selfless > > emotions. > > Hate and Love are widely taken as two sides of the > > same coin. > > Hate /can/ be a selfless emotion, just as Love can be > > a selfish emotion. > > > Sorry, I don't buy it. Hatred is the very antithesis of selflessness, > and genuine love (as opposed to infatuation or lust) is never selfish. > Certainly angels can hate, just as demons can love -- but any angel who > lets himself be dominated by hatred is heading for a Fall (just as no > demon who allows love to sway him can continue serving Hell > effectively). I simply cannot imagine Hatred as a divine Word, nor can I > imagine Novalis being persuaded by any argument that it should be. > > -David > - -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:25:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Fade the Cat Subject: IN> My Buddy Ethereal I've been looking at the EPG playtest files, and was thinking about one type of ethereal that doesn't seem to have been mentioned often: the My Buddy Ethereal. Not by that name, of course. But think about it; how many kids have imaginary friends that they really, truly believe in? How many people dream about the 'perfect someone' who truly, desperately wants them/needs them/protects them? Spread out over a few billion people, it's all aimed in different directions, so it's not really enough to produce one powerful ethereal. But it could easily produce several that aren't in competition with each other at all. Think about it; ethereals who were formed as the 'perfect friend/companion/guardian' for individual humans. Some of them are bound to survive and gather the odd force or two, just by sheer numbers. Which means ethereals that, rather than trying to garner belief from many people, are entirely focused on Their Human. Who obviously needs them, right? Plenty of motivation to go off and eat other weaker ethereals until they have enough essence to put together a vessel and go to the corporeal plane, to take care of the person who created them. They'd have all the obsession of a cherub, but without any superior/greater purpose to temper the obsession, beyond perhaps a need for personal survival. It could make for an interesting PC for the new EPG, or even a useful NPC to throw at celestials; sure, Snake may be a ruthless drug dealer who needs to be shut down...but his best friend not only has known him since the guy was a little kid with an imaginary friend, but depends on him for essence, survival, and a purpose. That scrappy little sidekick just might be a six-force ethereal with songs of his own. So, do people think this is likely/common/plausible? If there are flaws in my logic, point 'em out, I'm new to this. I'd like to know if it's worth offering the idea up as a possibility to be mentioned in the EPG, or writing it up as a more complete article for Pyramid at some point. - --Fade the Cat _____________________________________________________________ Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:43:13 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. >>There is probably an Angelic Word for "Hatred of things that deserve to be hated, because they are bad." Well, there is Peliel, the Angel of Righteous Vengance (One of Laurence's) and Barbiel, the Angel of Divine Wrath (One of Jean's oldest Servitors). I think "Hatred" would not be an appropriate word, even for a Virtue. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:26:44 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > >>There is probably an Angelic Word for "Hatred of > things that deserve to be hated, because they are > bad." Yeah, in the same way there is Divine and Infernal Fire. Both just translate to 'Fire' in Corporeal, but are clearly different celestially. Huzzah. :) > > Well, there is Peliel, the Angel of Righteous > Vengance (One of Laurence's) and Barbiel, the Angel > of Divine Wrath (One of Jean's oldest Servitors). > Certainly Oros would work along those lines- but Oros' Word isn't anger, it is /hatred/. The utter loathing and rejection of an antithesis, the burning need for that antithesis to be destroyed or otherwise brought into line. Properly channeled hatred can be a powerful tool for good, just as properly channeling anger or grief can. Now, granted, Novalis would probally disagree- but she also would have objected to an Angel of Divine Wrath or Righteous Vengence. I would see Dominic as the bigger problem as Hatred is inherently a more selfish Word than most, and hence more likely to be Hellbound. > I think "Hatred" would not be an appropriate word, > even for a Virtue. But the Virtues do hate, at least most of them. They Loathe The Fallen. They despise the corrupt. They would like nothing more than to raze Hell and soul-kill every demon who didn't repent on the spot. They are honor incarnate, and honor sometimes requires an utter rejection of the offensive. See also: Dante's treatment of the damned in the Inferno. Initally, he has a Novalis-y type view of the suffering damned, and is reprimanded by his guide when he expresses such. By the end, he is savagely beating a soul frozen so that only the head is out of the ice- and is /congratulated/ on doing so. What he displays goes beyond 'righteous anger'- it is righteous hatred. While I doubt Heaven would unimously agree, I also doubt that a number of the Host would disagree either. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> My Buddy Ethereal [snipsnipsnip- Imaginary Friend ethereal] Which would explain why most people 'outgrow' their imaginary friend's at about the same time (they're eaten- average life expantency and all), as well as why some few people continue to hear voices and see visions all their lives... voices and visions that have the human commit horrible crimes, so the mortals will put them somewhere like a loony bin... where they may not be happy, and may eventually go trully mad, but at least they are safe and feeding Essence to that nice voice-in-the-head... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 21:42:50 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >Oh, sure. And, well, if people don't _like_ my answer, they can change it. >And, as any author should be, I must remain aware of the possibilities of >other interpretations... > I shall remember that, in times where I may need to quote it heavily in defense of something that is unrepenitantly Too Cool for Canon. (^_^) >Oh, of course they could! This is, however, an interpretation. I mean, >there's.. > > >LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. > >LILIM: I don't want to work for him! > >LAURENCE: Judgment, arrest this Lilim! She needs re-education! > This is close to what I'm thinking; though, not so much re-education as 'deprogramming'...but, in this case, he honestly thinks it for the best that such occur. Not delusion, just that severe a devotion to the cause. > >or... > > >LAURENCE: Motion to have the Lilim placed >in my service. > >LILIM: I don't want to work >for him! > >DOMINIC: She's scared spitless of you, Laurence. > >LAURENCE: Drat that BalProp anyway! Motion that she be placed >with, er, Michael. Curse you and your ability to turn a humble chunk of tomatoe into an instrument of pain and suffering on a sinusoid level! (X_x) And the hot sauce doesn't feel too keen, either... > >NOVALIS: Motion that she be _asked_. > >LAURENCE: *heavy sigh* Fine, fine, see where she'll be happiest. > > > > That strikes me as being how the DEFAULT contrast setting might more accurately reflect the tone of things, with the occasional (depending on whence the Lilim redeemed, and who by) undercurrent of the prior example. > > > > I like that approach, actually. However, I also would >see that any >attempt to refuse the request, given some of >the issues that Laurence has >had in the past with >cooperation, it could be taken as an affront if he >were > >to be outright refused. > >In a brighter campaign: >Seraph and Elohite resonance should tell him things like, "Not only does >she not think she'd do well in your sevice, the TRUTH is that she'd be >miserable, get dissonant a lot, and Fall like a stone." O:> So he mutters >in the back of his head... > Well, yeah, but it would be a learning experience, and all good troops will need training in order to become effective soldiers in the War against the Infernals! Or so the uber- trooper in the back of his head goes, thinking he could work around the misery, potential for dissonance, and prevent that in-excess-off 9.8 M/s droppping... >In a darker campaign: >"Judgment! Arrest this Lilim! She is insufficiently devoted to the causes >of Heaven!" Which I also see happening a LOT, if some demon is Redeemed by Eli, Novalis, or Janus... > > I don't think of Laurence as being super-thin-skinned; >given some of >the opinions held about him, I see him > >being rather no-nonsense, occasionally to excesses. >Of couse, that's >another thing left more than a little >open to interpretation. > >And it's true enough that he tends to think of angels more as chess-pieces >than quirky creatures (as humans are); see Sup1. This is what keeps him >asking, even after however-long-the-GM-believes-it's-been worth of having >the Council say "No!" at him. (The Council doesn't have the Master of the >Armies of God Distinction -- HE does. O:> ) > S1 was what I was referencing, in regards to his vantage point and the possibility of the refusal being construed as a slight against his capabilities as a General and his capability of judging the ultimate utility of any Celestial being. Of course, I think that he's still far more a troop than a General, but that's my bias. > >> > >>[...] > >> Good point, and one that I had underestimated; while the > >>Seraphin Council is the oldest, wisest organization of >>Judgement, > >Wib, wub, didn't see this. > >Since when did you think the Seraphim Council was an extension of >JUDGMENT? Given that the Seraphim Council is in charge of making the vast majority of Judgements, decisions, and overall policy in Heaven, I'd come to associate the Council as much with Dominic out of Choir as purpose. Adding that Dominic's Celestial Tribunal is adjacent to the Council Spires, that Dominic was in charge of Michael's Trial, and that Dominic predates the Fall, it seemed a rather logical conclusion to draw. Even if other (Arch)angels sit upon the Council, of many and myriad choirs, it's still called the Seraphim Council, and still a powerful engine of Judgement. > >The Council is, er, the Council -- all the Archangels and the oldest and >wisest of the Seraphim and other Choirs. Dominic isn't running it. > Um...indeed! Well, that would explain volumes. As mentioned, Dominic is among the Oldest Seraphim (not as old as Michael, but then, other than Yves and the Lightbringer, what is?), and a rather prominantly powerful Archangel, and I've reason to believe that a rather hefty portion of Judgement's Servitors are upon the Council. Kamika-Z, more than willing to be corrected on that horrifying little misconception... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2647 ********************************