in_nomine-digest Saturday, November 2 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2843 In this digest: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such IN> [Fiction] Professional Courtesy (Part 7) RE: IN> Empty Cathedrals... RE: IN> Fallen Superiors - Non-GMG sources IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #2842 RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such Re: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such Re: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such IN> [INverse] Litheroy (part 1) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:05:12 +0100 (CET) From: Unni Solaas Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Harukami wrote: > I'm pretty sure that Sups 3 (112/115 but slightly open to interpretation) > says that Kronos *claims* to be a Balseraph but never appears in Cel-form > to prove it. It's just that nobody assumes he'd lie about his Choir. Why > would he? ^_~ Indeed. See Kronos' writeup in Heaven and Hell for an answer. :) - -- language, n; an intangible artificial construct for obscuring one's meanings and intentions to others. -ppint. Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:39:06 -0500 From: Archangel Beth Subject: IN> [Fiction] Professional Courtesy (Part 7) The brief internal struggle had cost her the initiative, though. Timon nodded decisively, a small smile coming back to his elegant mouth, and stood. Then he extended his free hand to her. "I am honored to meet someone who has walked this path before." She considered those long, pale fingers -- and the dark metal manacle upon the wrist above them -- for a moment, debating whether to make some comment about being less useful if killed (as she only had one vessel, and couldn't bring more "kin" back for sacrifice). Then again, he was a clever Bal. He'd figure it out. Or else she'd wake up in front of her Heart and be in big trouble. She threw the metaphoric dice and reached up to take his hand. Strong, as expected, but without the squeeze to it that some demons would have done. Dry, too; no doubt wiped on his jeans when he realized someone was coming. Relatively smooth, though not quite enough to let her believe he was just a paper-pusher, even if she hadn't seen him in action. He helped her up, gracefully, and then bent to kiss the back of her hand before releasing it. She twitched her eyebrows before deciding the action fit with his dark paladin theme, and wasn't a particular comment on her specifically. He wasn't of Lust, or even Gluttony or Media, or any of the other Words that were prone to concerning themselves with mucky corporeality. (And despite its lack of bosom, her vessel _had_ once been crafted by the Beautiful Prince, when she'd been Free and oh-so-idiotically-young...) *Remember, you think of him as a disciple of sorts.* "I'm pleased to see someone else following the bloodtrail, myself," she murmured, smiling demurely as she folded her own long fingers around the hand he'd kissed. "How long ago, if I may ask?" he asked, tilting his head in a way that he should have known was attractive, but seemed merely politely curious. She allowed herself a twist to her smile. "Apparently quite some time. It's been... a while, since I was last on Earth. Losing one's last vessel can be an inconvenience." "And yet you have regained sufficient status?" Betharan nodded. "For a... trial, as it were. Proving. I only get the one chance, though." *There. I'm not made of vessels, kid...* "Back to seclusion, or... something worse?" She shrugged. "The former, which is bad enough. I'm sure you can imagine, being relegated to toting books and scrolls around as a glorified librarian..." She wrinkled her nose. "Indeed," he smiled, the trace of crookedness suggesting that yes, a Servitor of Fate could empathize with the book-toting bit. "And what is your trial, miss Grace?" "Oh, just call me Grace." She tried to mimic his manner a little. "And might I know what name you prefer?" "Tim will do... Grace." That smile was definitely a weapon all its own. No telling how many Virtues -- who should have known better -- had taken him for some soft Lustie. She smiled in return. "Tim. My trial is, well, a very Destiny thing. I'm supposed to help people achieve Heaven." "You believe that I am seeking that?" "You seek the black wings, don't you? The kind with feathers?" He drew the blade of the katana through his fingertips. "That doesn't mean I seek Heaven." "Of course not." She made her polite showing of teeth as sharp and edged as the sword he held. "You doubt me, miss?" *Ah, there's the Bal-esque pride showing. Though there are some Virtues with attitudes...* "Doubt your word? I think not. I merely suggest that... possibilities can open up. Minds can change. You would not be the same as you are." That caught him. He could see it, in the way he stilled, the way the blade trembled just enough for a sliver of light to flicker into her eyes and out again. He wasn't stupid. The thought that someone had succeeded before him wasn't rankling him enough to blind his six clever eyes. He could see the value of a mentor -- if she was true. She just hoped that he wouldn't try to send her celestial. The Game would surely be up then, well and truly, as green scars and Geasa did not look anything like black-feathered wings and oath-chains. *But that's noisy, uses Essence,* she rehearsed. *And my brethren are unlikely to understand why I'm helping you.* She pushed a little more, to keep him from demanding to see her black-feathered wings. "You saw it in me, didn't you? The change?" Timon's eyes half-closed, as deceptively drooping as any Djinn's. "I saw... more than one change." It was very easy to let her mouth twist wryly. (*The chains, the Geasa, the hatred -- bound to obey as angel, but nothing in the words about Fallen... The pain and fury...*) She let herself look away, as if mildly embarrassed. "Yes. Well. We all make mistakes. I... corrected mine." Darkness washed through the back of her mind... (*"This does not excuse your betrayal of Hell," he murmured, arms crossed. She altered her posture, from crouching Renegade to kneeling Free Tempter, licked her lips, whispered, "Perhaps this will. Prince Asmodeus, Lord of the Game, I do pledge unto you my breath, my life, my self, to your Word and whim -- my Heart within your hands."*) ...and away again, like a dark, slimy eel brushing against her drowning flesh. She added, "It was some time ago." "You... Fell?" There was almost a hint of concern in the words. She nodded. It was even true. "But I... atoned. Proved my dedication." That was even true, if for a different Master than ruled Heaven's Library. "Proof," he whispered, "in blood and skill..." Then the flat of the katana-tip was beneath her chin. "Proof," he said more firmly. "In blood and skill." "I've no sword," she murmured, keeping her eyes demurely lowered, trying to immerse herself in her pretended Choir and role. Trying to ignore the light feeling in her belly that was either terror or excitement. Timon took the katana away from her chin, then tossed it to one side. "Neither have I." "It's been a while," she sighed. (Again, truth, for it had been a while since she fought in the arenas of Shal-Mari, Force-stripped to hardly more than a human soul, till her partner bought her a second chance.) "I hope I won't be a disappointment." "I am sure you will acquit yourself honorably," Timon said cheerfully. "Shall we?" *And if this vessel is slain, well... maybe someone else will have taken care of all this before I get out of Trauma.* "Of course," she replied, half-bowing to him. He matched it, and then they stood a moment, looking at each other. Their Songs of Claws rang through the Symphony, and they lunged. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "But [eating like this] is what lions do naturally -- when we're not filing books according to the Dewey Decimal System." --Daddylion in Between the Lions (PBS) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 06:48:27 +0800 From: "Manny Nepomuceno" Subject: RE: IN> Empty Cathedrals... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2823B.D919C020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, > What? Since when? Demogorgon was given the Word of=20 > Destruction before he > was slapped down to his composite Forces by Belial. As far=20 > as canon goes, > or so I understand, Corruption has been held by Beelzebub and=20 > Legion, no > others. I'd be willing to say (non-canon light turned on)=20 > that Beelzebub > was a Hellborn just like Genubath. My bad. Misread the text. :) > >Nothing in canon about Genubath. >=20 > I swear to Yves that I didn't see that line until after I=20 > typed my last > sentence in the above paragraph (Seraph of Coincidence pings him as > *truthful*). I'm not sure if Genubath was Hellborn. I'd be willing to hazard that he = was one of the First Fallen, since he's listed as being Novalis's counter. = On the other hand, there _was_ all that time between the Fall and Lilith's freeing the Infernals. GMG's timeline gives that as 6,625 years. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2823B.D919C020 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IhsWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGAAcAAQAAAAAAAAEGgAMADgAAANIHCwAC AAYAMAAAAAYAIgEBA5AGAKQIAAAtAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAAD AC4AAAAAAAIBMQABAAAAGAAAAAAAAACIL7/2J9PBQaYd3aE+DnZa5GgiAAMANgAAAAAAHgBwAAEA AAAYAAAASU4+IEVtcHR5IENhdGhlZHJhbHMuLi4AAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcKB9JtjBdCXv9B1QAek AU2KincaZQAAAgEdDAEAAAAeAAAAU01UUDpEQVJLTkVTU0BJLU1BTklMQS5DT00uUEgAAAALAAEO AAAAAEAABg4AkHa6+IHCAQIBCg4BAAAAGAAAAAAAAACIL7/2J9PBQaYd3aE+DnZawoAAAAMAFA4A AAAACwAfDgEAAAAeACgOAQAAADIAAAAwMDAwMDAwMgFkYXJrbmVzc0BpLW1hbmlsYS5jb20ucGgB aS1tYW5pbGEuY29tLnBoAAAAHgApDgEAAAAyAAAAMDAwMDAwMDIBZGFya25lc3NAaS1tYW5pbGEu Y29tLnBoAWktbWFuaWxhLmNvbS5waAAAAAIBCRABAAAAhgMAAIIDAAAoBQAATFpGdRsO/GsDAAoA cmNwZzEyNeIyA0N0ZXgFQQEDAff/CoACpAPkBxMCgA/zAFAEVj8IVQeyESUOUQMBAgBjaOEKwHNl dDIGAAbDESX2MwRGE7cwEiwRMwjvCfe2OxgfDjA1ESIMYGMAUDMLCQFkMzYWUAumIEg4ZXksCqIK hAqAPiBiVxPgdD8gBgALgGMwZSB3aAnwHlFEZZ0EYGcFsB+QA6B3YQQgyGdpdgnwIHQe8B4A4QWw ZCBvZgrjHdIfUEhzdHIa0HRpH9FivwEQBbAewB7wHZYgAnMLYIRwcAmAIGRvdyCBFm8jAAQAIAWg bXBvcwCQDrAgRgWwHrAEIGKgeSBCZWwHMS4eYLpBBCBmCsUd0iARYwBwvx/RH5AHkB0lHfAFsXMk 0HBJIHVuBIEiAABwZPosEiFyIiAFMCJiE+AmITsJ4SMBbCEQJkMmgHplOGJ1YifgKeAhV0xl/yBA AiAqcChAKNcgoRQAJtE8SScsAR7BAxAmkG5nqSSyc2EmUCgoQS0oJKkmkGdoBUB0CHBuJEF9AiAp IVcgoB4wLEgjOmHPHOEv8AbgBKFqdSIAMWE6ax7ARwnwLMAeMGgurR06TSZQNjBkJtFNBACfGCA3 gCCTDrIm0TopHTz8Pk4u0TASC4AoFQGgCGD/BUA1/R3wHZYpsAPgOBAFwD0kwVkgYAQgMwMpsGRp +GRuJwVAFBA4cTMSMAHvHsAp0CJQAyBhAYASgSmw9TKHeSQybSZQC2AiAB2W/xQQAjAJ8B6xOpEg ojshIGDaIAqxYQnAJBBoMLAGYb9EQiExCFAekT6QQsNwMBHbBCAk8G0n4R2WKiIRIKDgZnVsKik2 ey9gRnD/KEA+0QhwQvEhQDX2H/M0xvMvPySzYXoLETL0ILEgAs8CIB7AITEgokZpKhElwH0HQGwJ 8CpwAJAeoh7wJ38EICaQIgAkQStTMBI6EHZ/B0AEAE+RBaA/0QSQJtFPvyCELtMrMSpSLuIewF8g AX5fJ+Av8DL0IlAHgCKRdG89QCB1TpIs40wDECWQaB9PkQNQCeAwEyCxSW5mxwSRB0AvIkdNR0+R VIKPP4MgQj31IBE2LDYOMFwgeT1RLyAdOjsyYE1tAHBuJlAHwHBGpTGgdCBwOi8vd10gLmdcZW9F cCJQB5AuJTEvbwBwXWAXsAEgbwbwRqV9AV9wAAAeAEIQAQAAAC8AAAA8MDAxYzAxYzI4MWQwJGZl MTU4OGMwJDM3ZDFlZjgwQGphbW9nZS53bS5lZHU+AAADAJIQAwAAAAIBFDoBAAAAEAAAABfrndWv si9Nq3wfjjDZvLgDAN4/n04AAAMACVkBAAAAAwBAZQAAAAALABOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAADhQAAAAAAAAMAFYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAbgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAAOOQAQADACmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAB4AQIAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABQAAADEwLjAAAAAACwBBgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA AAAABoUAAAAAAAALAEWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMASIAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAACwBdgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAACAfgPAQAA ABAAAACIL7/2J9PBQaYd3aE+DnZaAgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAiC+/9ifTwUGmHd2hPg52WgIB+w8BAAAA kwAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABtc3BzdC5kbGwAAAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAA QzpcRG9jdW1lbnRzIGFuZCBTZXR0aW5nc1xNYW5ueVxMb2NhbCBTZXR0aW5nc1xBcHBsaWNhdGlv biBEYXRhXE1pY3Jvc29mdFxPdXRsb29rXE91dGxvb2sucHN0AAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwIAAgEU NAEAAAAQAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADAwMDAwMDAwODgyRkJGRjYyN0Qz QzE0MUE2MUREREExM0UwRTc2NUE0NDY5MjIwMAAAAAADAAYQEBGlpAMABxDIAgAAAwAQEAAAAAAD ABEQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhFWSxXSEFUP1NJTkNFV0hFTj9ERU1PR09SR09OV0FTR0lWRU5U SEVXT1JET0ZERVNUUlVDVElPTkJFRk9SRUhFV0FTU0xBUFBFRERPV05UT0hJU0NPTVBPU0lURUZP UkNFU0IAAAAA1yA= - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2823B.D919C020-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 06:48:27 +0800 From: "Manny Nepomuceno" Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors - Non-GMG sources This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C2823B.D970E0D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, Thanks for the dates. Here're additional references: > Answers, where I can find 'em, from the GMG: >=20 > Dominic: > > > If he was though, who did he serve if anyone? Did=20 > >he fledge? Was he created?=20 >=20 > He was created in ??? BC (before the forming of the Earth) and was > assigned, along with Asmodeus, to codify the word of God. =20 > Thus he probably > didn't form an Archangel. The bit about working with Asmodeus is from the APG, p.6. Nothing about when he was made. S1 (p.41) says that Asmodeus was his most trusted servitor -- take note of the small s. :) > >Khalid: Was an Elohite of Purity. He became AA of Faith=20 > after the Purity=20 > >Crusade. Was he created? Did he fledge?=20 >=20 > No mention of Khalid until 859 BC, when he already had his Word. S3 says that Khalid was created an Elohite by Uriel around 2000 BC = (p.79). > >Magog: Okay. He was a Kyrio of Stone before the Fall, and Angel of=20 > >Fortitude. Was he an AA though? After the Fall, he Fell and=20 > became Prince of=20 > >Cruelty. He was sealed away by David and Khalid. Was he made=20 > by David? Or=20 > >did he fledge?=20 No, he wasn't an Archangel. :) > >Andrealphus: Was he the Angel of Love before the Fall, or=20 > the Archangel? Was=20 > >he made or did he fledge? If he was a mere angel, did he=20 > serve anyone?=20 >=20 > He's made Archangel surprisingly soon after he Fledges in 100=20 > million BC. > So he probably didn't serve anyone in between; the GMG does say he was > created (not Fledged) - so by who? S2, p.9 has it that Andrealphus was Word-bound and raised to Archangel thanks to Blandine and Beleth's declaration of love. It's implied that = both the Word-binding and the Superior State Change happened at the same = time. > >Mammon: I know nothing about him actually. Was he at the=20 > Fall? Was he=20 > >fledged ot created? Was he hellborn? Did he serve Marc? I'm=20 > not asking this=20 > >for the list, I'm personally asking this because I don't know! :D=20 >=20 > No mention of Mammon until 700 BC when he becomes Prince of Greed. Mammon was a Seraph of Creation who Fell along with the rest of = Lucifer's rebels. He became a Balseraph of the Game, earning Asmodeus's Duke and Chief Steward Distinctions. (S4, p.51) > >Fleuity: Same problem as Mammon.=20 >=20 > Fleurity was a servitor of Gluttony; he was given his word in=20 > 1864 BC. I > don't have Sups 4, so I bet that could answer you better. Nothing in S4 about his creation. The earliest date given is 1839, and = a reference to ten years of work prior to that. (S4, p.29) > >Meserach: He was the Prince of Sloth, and a Djinn. Did he=20 > Fall or was he=20 > >Hellborn? Did he fledge, or was he created? Who did he serve?=20 >=20 > No mention of him until he got eaten. Chomp. Mmm. The IPG lists him as a former Servitor of the Wind, so I'd assume that = he was one of the First Fallen. (IPG, p.12) > >Asmodeus: Again, was he at the Fall? Did he serve Dominic?=20 > Was he created,=20 > >or did he fledge? Did he Fall with Lucifer, or did he go afterwards?=20 >=20 > Asmodeus was created along with Dominic and worked equally with him to > codify the word of God - definately Fell with Lucifer. He served Dominic, but not in an Archangel-Servitor relationship. He = was definitely junior to the Angel of Judgment, though. (S1, p.41) > >Vapula: He was a Hellborn Habbalite who got the Word of=20 > Technology. Did he=20 > >fledge? Was he created? Did he serve anyone before his elevation?=20 >=20 > Vapula was Technology before he was an Archangel; he was=20 > minor enough that > nothing's mentioned of him in the GMG - again, Sups 4=20 > probably has that. Vapula was a Habbalite of Fate who rebelled against Kronos. Lucifer = found him, gave him a Word, and returned him to the Archives. He was raised = to Prince during the Industrial Revolution. (S4, p.109) > >Alaemon: I know nothing about him, like with Mammon and Fleurity.=20 >=20 > He was once a Mercurian of Revelation; no mention of WHEN he=20 > Fell (I want > Sups 4...), but he becomes the second Prince of Secrets in 1800 AD. No one really knows who Alaemon is. S4 gives three different histories. = :) > >Mariel: Was she the Angel or Archangel of Memory at the=20 > Fall? Was she made,=20 > >or did she fledge? Did she serve anyone if she was merely=20 > the Angel of=20 > >Memory?=20 >=20 > Also no mention of her until she gets eaten. Chomp. Mmm. =20 > Which means that > I don't know if she *was* Angel of Memory or even an Angel, ever. Angel (not Archangel) of Memory, likely one of the First Fallen. Set against Raphael as Princess of Oblivion. (IPG, p.12) > >Gebbeleth: I don't know much. Did he Fall? OR was he=20 > Hellborn? Did he=20 > >fledge, or was he created? Did he serve anyone?=20 >=20 > No mention of him until he disappears in 1600 BC, which=20 > nobody notices.=20 He was most likely one of the First Fallen, as he was set against = Raphael along with Mariel. (IPG, p.12) > Phew! > Haru Great work! ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools - ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C2823B.D970E0D0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IhwWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGAAcAAQAAAAAAAAEGgAMADgAAANIHCwAC AAYAMAAAAAYAIgEBA5AGACQQAAAtAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAAD AC4AAAAAAAIBMQABAAAAGAAAAAAAAACIL7/2J9PBQaYd3aE+DnZaZGgiAAMANgAAAAAAHgBwAAEA AAAnAAAASU4+IEZhbGxlbiBTdXBlcmlvcnMgLSBOb24tR01HIHNvdXJjZXMAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAA AAHCgfjB4P3qx6nmpUKymCNzGQ2fGd8AAAIBHQwBAAAAHgAAAFNNVFA6REFSS05FU1NASS1NQU5J TEEuQ09NLlBIAAAACwABDgAAAABAAAYOAJB2uviBwgECAQoOAQAAABgAAAAAAAAAiC+/9ifTwUGm Hd2hPg52WsKAAAADABQOAAAAAAsAHw4BAAAAHgAoDgEAAAAyAAAAMDAwMDAwMDIBZGFya25lc3NA aS1tYW5pbGEuY29tLnBoAWktbWFuaWxhLmNvbS5waAAAAB4AKQ4BAAAAMgAAADAwMDAwMDAyAWRh 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V0hFUkVJQ0FORklOREVNLEZST01USEVHTUc6RE9NSU5JQzpJRkhFV0FTVEgAAAAAJIQ= - ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C2823B.D970E0D0-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:23:40 -0500 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #2842 > -----Original Message----- > From: EDG > Subject: Re: Deaf to the symphony (RE: IN> The Angel of College Football) > > I think the point was that since the players suffered from > hearing loss, a > huddle is one of the very few ways to effectively communicate information > to them without letting everybody else know what you're doing, and if I'm > reading right, then Mr. Bergstresser is simply reluctant to ascribe to > celestial interference what can easily be ascribed to natural > expediency. (This is a view with which I usually agree, FWIW.) Right on the money. As the anecdote that was posted suggests, the huddle was a natural outcome of the necessary conditions of the game as played at Gallaudet. While I'm sure the implication was unintentional, the writeup does imply the deaf team would have never figured out a way to avoid having their plays read without divine help. - -- Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:25:45 -0500 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such If this is the case we have two canonical sources directly contradicting each other. The second edition of the rulebook, p. 172, states "Kronos, a Balseraph, presents himself ... [blah, blah, blah]" That's pretty unambiguous. I smell missing erratum. - -- Chris > -----Original Message----- > Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such > > I'm pretty sure that Sups 3 (112/115 but slightly open to interpretation) > says that Kronos *claims* to be a Balseraph but never appears in Cel-form > to prove it. It's just that nobody assumes he'd lie about his Choir. Why > would he? ^_~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:47:10 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such No no, wouldn't nail. Possibly tap lightly with a wiffle bat (with the Calabim of Lust attunement imbedded). >Michael: Was a Wordless angel before the Fall, but became the AA of War >after he defeated Lucifer. There is some speculation though, that he was >always the AA of War. > I don't know if there is speculation on that or if the speculation is if he was an AA before the Fall, just without a Word- now whether that's even possible is very much in speculation, but if it is so, it means that Michael was hideously powerful even before getting the Word of War. >Laurence: Was not at the Fall. Was he created by Uriel? Did he fledge? He >served Purity as a Malakite, and became AA of the Sword after the Purity >Crusade ended. > I'm going to say that created whole or fledged, he was a creation of Uriel (yes created as a Reliever who fledged). As for the rest, yeah, that's sounds about right. >Gabriel: Was always the AA of Fire. > Yep. >David: Was always the AA of Stone. Went from Cherub to Malakite at the Fall. > Yes'm. >Dominic: Was he the Angel of Judgment before the Fall, or was he always the >AA of Judgment? He became the AA of Judgment after the Fall if he was the >Angel of Judgment before. If he was though, who did he serve if anyone? Did >he fledge? Was he created? (I am keeping in mind here that not everyone >served a Superior before the Fall, since there wasn't as much pressure to do >so then.) > Okay, on this one I believe that he was the Angel of Judgement before the Fall, with Asmodeus being just a very powerful, but un-Wordbound Cherub. Could be wrong, with both of those upgraded one step (AA of Judgement, and Wordbound Cherub). I don't think he served anyone directly (that I can remember). >Uriel: Was always AA of Purity. Went from Seraph to First Malakite at the >Fall. > Righto. >Novalis: Was she only the Angel of Flowers at the Fall, or was she always >AA? If not, who did she serve? Was she fledged, or created? > Okay, this one I feel better about- Angel of Flowers that managed to parley her Word into AA status afterwards. There was a void and need for new AA's and she got a seat. As for the rest... Gut reaction is either David (hence even more reason for the resentment) or Eli. >Eli: Was always AA of Creation. > Or God... oh wait, that's horribly, terribly, and hideously heretical. Forgive me. >Blandine: Was always AA of Dreams. > Yeppers. >Jordi: Was always Aa of Animals. > Wasn't always- became so after he managed to create Vessels, which I find ironic due to the fact that he's a Kyriotate. Anyway, here's my own question- who was the first Kyriotate? Was it Jordi or Oannes (if we can even peg down his Choir, hell for all we know the first Kyriotate could be the Archangel of Death). >Marc: He was voted to AA of Trade after the Fall. Was he at the Fall though? >Did he serve anyone? Was he fledged, or created? > I'd say he was at the Fall, but might have helped Novalis bandage wounds. >Christopher: Was an Angel of Stone until the Childrens Crusade, when he >became the AA of Children. Was he at the Fall? > I don't think so. Always has struck me as a relatively young AA. >Oannes: Was always AA of the Waters. There is doubt to his Choir, but >everyone seems to envision him as a Kyriotate. > Works for me. >Raphael: Was always AA of Knowledge. Or was she promoted? If so, who did she >serve if anyone? Probably Yves if she was promoted. > Was always, and there seems to be a possibility that she was the first Elohite. >Yves: Was always AA of Destiny. > Or... well... see Eli. >Azrael: Here's a messy one. What is canon is that there is an AA of Death. >what is not canon, but popular, is that he is a Grigori named Azrael. If he >is a Grigori, he got his Word after the Fall. Who created him? Who did he >serve? If before the Fall, what is his Choir? Who did he serve? Was he >fledged or created? This can't be answered too well though. > ::bangs head into reliquary/tether:: There's an AA of Death. No Choir, no name, no description, no servitors. And evidently no reaction to Saminga. >Janus: Was always the AA of the Wind. > Was he? I suppose he was, haven't heard about him being upgraded at a later date, and it makes sense, though I'd give Gabriel the honor of first Ofanite. >Jean: Was he an AA before the Fall? Or was he just the Angel of Lightning? >Was he created, or did he fledge? Who did he serve? > I always thought he was a Wordbound for a long while with a post-Fall upgrade. Served Raphael, almost certainly, though there might be some split duties to Yves. >Khalid: Was an Elohite of Purity. He became AA of Faith after the Purity >Crusade. Was he created? Did he fledge? > I'd say he was created in much the same way as Laurence (however that was). The rest fits. >Zadkiel: I really know very little about her. She was a Cherub of Flowers. >Was she created? Did she fledge? Was she at the Fall? She later became the >AA of Protection. > Same here, not much known about the minors. >Litheroy: Again, I don't know much since I don't have the book. Was he at >the Fall? Did he serve anyone? Was he created or fledged? He became the AA >of Revelations. > See above. >Song: What is canon is that there is a AA of Song, and she is a Grigori. All >we don't know is her name. > Amazing that we even know that. I'll apply my many cents and little sense to the rest of these in a second e-mail, as I didn't realize how big this one is getting. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:19:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such At 6:25 PM -0500 11/1/02, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > If this is the case we have two canonical sources directly contradicting >each other. The second edition of the rulebook, p. 172, states "Kronos, a >Balseraph, presents himself ... [blah, blah, blah]" That's pretty >unambiguous. I smell missing erratum. Not really. The main book says what it says. Then Heaven & Hell gives the real truth. GIN just follows what H&H says. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 20:33:25 -0500 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such I find that deeply dissatisfying. Is the official position, then, that the core rules are wrong on this point and intentionally so? - -- Chris > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth McCoy > > At 6:25 PM -0500 11/1/02, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > > If this is the case we have two canonical sources directly > contradicting > >each other. The second edition of the rulebook, p. 172, states > "Kronos, a > >Balseraph, presents himself ... [blah, blah, blah]" That's pretty > >unambiguous. I smell missing erratum. > > Not really. The main book says what it says. Then Heaven & Hell gives > the real truth. GIN just follows what H&H says. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 03:02:34 +0100 (CET) From: Unni Solaas Subject: RE: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Chris Bergstresser wrote: > I find that deeply dissatisfying. Is the official position, then, that > the core rules are wrong on this point and intentionally so? > I don't find it all that troublesome actually. The Core Rules gives the truth as the PCs and 99,9999blah% of the game world knows it. Only Lucifer, Yves and Kronos (and God and _maybe_ Lilith) know the actual truth. And it really hasn't got any actual importance in the mechanics of the game. I actually find it neat that they do it this way. It's a pity that the IPG reveals that Kronos's listing as a balseraph is a Lie. It should have been kept as a secret only revealed in the writeups of Kronos and Yves. All IMHO, of course. :) - -- language, n; an intangible artificial construct for obscuring one's meanings and intentions to others. -ppint. Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:57:44 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Fallen Superiors and Such Chris Bergstresser wrote: > > I find that deeply dissatisfying. Is the official position, then, that > the core rules are wrong on this point and intentionally so? Yes. They give what is commonly known. Heaven and Hell clarifies that while almost everyone thinks Kronos is a Balseraph, Kronos knows better. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 02:47:11 -0700 From: Julian Mensch Subject: IN> [INverse] Litheroy (part 1) Sirea Theyal has been generous enough to let me play in her toybox and contribute some material to her INverse heresy; this is the result. (I'm sure that if anyone else were to ask nicely, she might be willing to extend to them a similar privilege, but of course it's not my place to say.) Anyway, everything here is subject to her veto, of course, but barring continuity glitches or other goofs, this is Litheroy ala INverse. The second half will be posted tomorrow, time permitting. Since this is a very, very High Contrast setting, I tried to make Litheroy as yucky as I could. Let me know if it reads as being too melodramatic or cliched. LITHEROY Demon Prince of Accusation ========================== "The world is... debased, wretched and evil at it's very core. Why does no one but me see this?" He just wants everybody to know the truth. That's the primary thing you have to remember when dealing with Litheroy; ulti- mately, he's a simple being. The world is filled with illusions, with malicious hatred covered by a thin film of innocence. Litheroy wants to take that film away, to reveal to mankind the simple lesson that he himself learned so long ago: there are no heroes. There is no such thing as goodness, just varying degrees of skill at faking it. Litheroy firmly believes that every Archangel in the heights of Heaven is a black-hearted monster, and however twisted that impulse has become in the mind of a Demon Prince, he's still acting out of what, to him, is an overriding moral imperative to expose that evil to the light of day. As the most quintessential Balseraph, Litheroy's personal reality is completely separate from the Symphony, mirroring it only in the things he personally sees and hears. Beyond the walls of the absolutely proven lies the unknown: a vast sea of malice and evil, all waiting to crash down on the Demon Prince of Accusation unless he can expose it first. Litheroy attained his rank as a Prince of Hell for betraying Gebbeleth, the original Archangel of Trust, leading to him being slaughtered by Michael. In his mind, Gebbeleth was nothing short of a monster, a terrible deceiver who sought to build false bonds between individuals by working to conceal the inherently evil nature of all sapient beings. Alaemon thus has a tremendous vendetta toward Litheroy, but this isn't held up well on Litheroy's side: he views the new Archangel of Trust as a dupe and an ingenue, barely competent and certainly not capable of the kind of masterful deceptions of her predecessor. He has assigned Raziel, one of his senior Servitors, the Word of Mystery -- the same Word that Alaemon possessed before her ascent to Archangelic status -- and left the matter at that. Raziel is an insidious and subtle demon, and in many ways serves as the Infernal front for the conflict between Accusation and Trust. For his part, Litheroy sincerely believes he is still at war with Gebbeleth, who was surely too cunning to allow himself to be destroyed that easily. Even if he is dead (and, objectively, he quite certainly is), Litheroy will not rest until everything he represented has been scoured from the face of the Earth forever. In outlook and personal demeanor, Litheroy vacillates between Machiavelli and Gollum, being capable of incredible cunning but having to make a constant effort to conceal his paranoid malice and psychopathic tendencies behind a sheen of casual equanimity, "just like everybody else does." Michael makes a constant effort to keep Litheroy's personal Symphony at least remotely in line with objective reality, so that his accusations remain credible and dangerous, but he has still developed a reputation as something of a crackpot, and when he's placed under stress or emotionally disturbed, he can start to believe the people around him are engaging in truly surreal atrocities. Much of his dementia would be hilarious if it weren't so macabre. Still, for all of his crazed behavior, Litheroy is Hell's primary propaganda machine, and Michael has made it clear that harming him is simply off limits. No other Prince's servants are close to as skilled at whipping the troops, suppressing any rumors of redemption and truly inspiring the Horde to /hate/ Heaven. Litheroy's organization is chaotic in the extreme. Unlike the fiercely regimented ranks of Condemnation, Accusation is not concerned with such things as chain of command or group initiatives. To outsiders' eyes, Litheroy largely leaves his Servitors to do their own thing with very little central authority. A lack of direction does not imply a lack of moti- vation, however. Litheroy's paranoia regularly drives him to cull his Servitors -- to casually soul-kill between 2% and 5% of his entire body corpus! No other Superior has this kind of friendly-fire death toll going on in his ranks, and for any other Word it would be disastrous. But for Accusation it works: every Servitor is scared for his very life, with no level of Distinction placing one above the possibility of a sudden and arbitrary extinction. The only way to stave off this death sentence is to root out enough dirt on others -- humans, demons, angels, even fellow Accusers -- to keep Roy fascinated and pleased with your progress. Thus it is that a Word known for complete individualism and disorder is also intensely efficient. Litheroy never lets a demon he created transfer to another Word, and the measures he uses to guard their Hearts range from the merely draconian to the outright lunatic. Redemption attempts are particularly common among Accusers, but success- ful Redemption is immensely rare -- the terrible nature of service under Litheroy means that it is nearly impossible for the desire for Redemption to be truly selfless. Litheroy loves this -- nothing makes for better propaganda then a Redemption attempt frying the candidate alive. (Of _course_ the Archangel planned it that way all along!) Demons of Accusation don't like each other -- they're all looking to root out guilty secrets, as demons they all tend to have their own skeletons in the closet, and the Darwinism of the Word means that the only real way to ensure their own survival is to get other Accusers killed through their own sins. However, the do have a loose order among themselves, the better to facilitate their work, spread rumors and dig up dirt on whomever happens to be their current project. This network is known informally as the Grapevine, and tends to have a subculture similar to that of human conspiracy theorists, complete with newsletters, Internet sites and shadowy meetings in alleys -- indeed, the 'lone gun- men' image tends to make the Accusers seem more pleasant then they really are to those who don't know a lot about them. It's only when one begins thinking about their theories that the sheer intensity of paranoid, petty malice they bear becomes evident. The Scary Thing The official party line on Litheroy in Heaven is that he, like all Balseraphs, is a Liar, and his accusations are a tool used to spread fear, paranoia and mistrust. This is, of course, quite accurate. None of this, however, implies that his accusations are not, sometimes, true. Litheroy would be a lot less dangerous if there wasn't some truth behind his venom. While the more idealistic Archangels simply disregard whatever he says on the principle of the matter, Heaven's more pragmatic Superiors do not have that luxury. Litheroy has exposed and destroyed more than one unclean angel, and members of a few different Heavenly Words keep their ears pressed to the grapevine. When Litheroy isn't in his gonzo conspiracy theorist mode, his words can have a great deal of rationality to them. He sincerely believes every accusation he makes -- being a Balseraph, he can hardly knowingly lie -- but he also knows what others think is reasonable, and when he's fully com- posed and in possession of his faculties, he'll accuse only in ways he thinks his audience will find credible. Thus, he might imply that Makatiel has a secret protocol known only to his most senior Servitors for actively foiling Baal's attempts to kill Hellsworn, but not that his true word is Blood, that he engages in ritual cannibalism with the other Archangels regularly or that he conducts secret genetic research into superviruses, which he considers to be the ultimate expression of Life. The Word of Trust is already a little too "touchy-feely" for many angels' sensibilities, and Gebbeleth has been dead for several millennia now, and is thus unable to offer any kind of defense. It's thus unsurprising (and tragic) how many of Heaven's less empathic angels can be heard repeating macabre rumors about him that find their origin with the Word of Accusation... Even is a world with as stark a moral delineation as that of the INverse, things are not always black and white. For all his terrible malice, Litheroy does operate under one overriding moral imperative: secret sins must be exposed to the light of day. He's not opposed to evil, per se, but he is fanatically opposed to it being concealed by the illusion of good. This makes him an incredibly useful figure to the angels at times -- when something subtle or secretly corrup- tive is happening, he can be trusted to fight with a sur- prising tenacity to expose it. Michael is generally fairly honest and forthright about his evil, so this doesn't bother him too much -- but there have been one or two occasions when the First Fallen has swept Litheroy away in the middle of the night, locking him in a dungeon buried deep in the fetid bowels of Stygia. Hell must have some secrets, after all. Others are not so sanguine about his methods, however. His personal crusade has made him the dire enemy of Chris- topher, who thrives on the appearance of innocence and on sins hidden by shadow and shame. The enmity between these two Superiors is ancient and terrible, and an active danger to anyone caught between them. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2843 ********************************