in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 9 2003 Volume 01 : Number 2926 In this digest: IN> Lilith and Mercurians Re: IN> EPG Cover Art Re: IN> Lilim and killing (Was Finishing off...) Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians Re: IN> The List Re: IN> The List Re: IN> [3 Souls] The Thing with Three Souls IN> The List IN> wouldn't finish off... Re: IN> The List Re: IN> Lilim and killing (Was Finishing off...) Re: IN> The List RE: IN> wouldn't finish off... IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians Re: IN> wouldn't finish off... Re: IN> Lilim and killing (Was Finishing off...) Re: IN> EPG Cover Art Re: IN> wouldn't finish off... Re: IN> The List Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians Re: IN> Wouldn't finish off... Re: IN> The List Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians RE: IN> Wouldn't finish off... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 01:18:12 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> Lilith and Mercurians >>Would Marc kill Lilith? > >Only if he wants to be dissonant. Mercurian. Human. No hittee. That... is an interesting and highly relevant point. In fact, now that it's been brought up, I can see it as being a defining element of Marc and Lilith's relationship. Eli, too. For that matter, Lilith and the Impudite Princes as well: Andre, Nybbas, and Alaemon (to a lesser extent, but he's still a cold fish for an Impudite). Neither Marc nor Eli may lay a hand on Lilith. Neat. Must ponder consequences. >-- >--Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor >http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 03:52:03 -0600 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> EPG Cover Art At 11:40 PM 01/08/03 -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Why am I thinking of the Game Master's Guide as between GIN and EPG? Crack? ;-) The GMG was published before I started working at SJ Games; GIN was after. - -- Life is an aimless drive that you take alone | Might as well enjoy the ride -- take the long way home. | - -- The Bloodhound Gang, "Take The Long Way Home" | hackard@io.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:54:09 +0100 From: shadur@systemec.nl (Rens Houben) Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and killing (Was Finishing off...) In other news for Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 05:34:02AM +0000, phillip@mbaysav.org has been seen typing: > > Lilith would rather someone owed her a favor. > You see, I wonder about this. Not whether or not she would, but if it works > that way. Can you actually get a geas from not killing someone? It's one > thing to save their life; if they're hanging from a cliff and you pull them up, > yeah you've done something. On the other hand if you see some guy lying on the > couch and decide not to kill him, I don't know about getting a geas from it. > In the same fashion, you come accross a stricken angel and decide to leave him > alone. I don't think that counts for anything. You didn't do him any favors. > On the other hand, if you Sang up some healing for him, that's another matter > entirely. That brings up a point I've been meaning to ask: does a Geas-hook get set if the Needing person doesn't even know you're actually doing him a favor? For some reason, I can't quite imagine that driving a car would result in a few hundred "don't run me over" geas-hooks from pedestrians unless you drive like you're in Carmageddon. On the other hand, if you're in a fight to the (corporeal) death with someone and wind up crouched over him with the business end of your weapon pointing at his eyeball, you might pick up a Need not to pull that trigger... An angel lying on a couch doesn't actively Need you to leave him be, especially if he's not even aware of you. If he's wounded, he might Need help, but I'm willing to bet that a Malakite would not Need any help from a Lilim and would refuse if it were offered... Can you get a Geas for doing something that the recipient actively does NOT consider a favor? > I guess I'm wondering whether or not inactivity counts for Geasa or not. After > all, if that were the case than anytime a lilim read someone and got a CD of 6 > they'd get 'not die'. Not neccessarily, in my opinion. Look at it this way: How actively do you think "I don't want to die" on any given day? Do you go to sleep each night fervently praying that you won't shuffle loose the mortal coil in your sleep? Granted, there are areas in the world where that *is* accurate, places where, be it because of open warfare or an oppressive government or poverty or crime, human life has become worthless and Death is a constant companion every day, but if you're reading this chances are you're not. I think I'm rambling again, but I believe I've made the point I intended to make. - -- Rens Houben | opinions are mine Resident linux guru and sysadmin | if my employers have one Systemec Internet Services. |they'll tell you themselves PGP public key at http://swordbreaker.systemec.nl/shadur.key.asc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:01:49 +0100 From: shadur@systemec.nl (Rens Houben) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians In other news for Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 01:18:12AM -0500, William J. Keith has been seen typing: > >>Would Marc kill Lilith? > >Only if he wants to be dissonant. Mercurian. Human. No hittee. > Neither Marc nor Eli may lay a hand on Lilith. Neat. Must ponder > consequences. If you want to go one better (I probably wouldn't since I think it'd upset the balance of the game)... Lilim can only be made by Lilith, and they are what they are because they inherit some of their Mother's nature. What if "some" includes that ineffable bit that makes humans, well, human? If she could pull it off, that'd mean her Daughters would be effectively immune from harm by an entire Choir... ... And on a side note, does Asmodeus' Humanity Attunement work in this particular regard as well? i.e., does a Mercurian get dissonant if he punches a demon that's using it? On one hand, it's not actually a human he's punching... But on the other hand, if he doesn't KNOW that for certain he's choosing to punch what he can't be sure isn't a real human... And angelic Dissonance is due to choosing to go against your nature... > >--Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor > >http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > William - --Shad - -- Rens Houben | opinions are mine Resident linux guru and sysadmin | if my employers have one Systemec Internet Services. |they'll tell you themselves PGP public key at http://swordbreaker.systemec.nl/shadur.key.asc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:21:59 +0100 From: shadur@systemec.nl (Rens Houben) Subject: Re: IN> The List In other news for Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 04:45:23PM +0000, Christopher Pipinou has been seen typing: > Randy Finder writes: > > Yves may or may not read Kronos's files, your call. :) > I have a sudden image of someone suggesting it to Yves, > and him looking shocked. "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail." More to the point, even *knowing* Helltongue is dissonant for angels, isn't it? - -Shad - -- Rens Houben | opinions are mine Resident linux guru and sysadmin | if my employers have one Systemec Internet Services. |they'll tell you themselves PGP public key at http://swordbreaker.systemec.nl/shadur.key.asc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 06:32:01 -0500 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> The List >> > Yves may or may not read Kronos's files, your call. :) > >> I have a sudden image of someone suggesting it to Yves, >> and him looking shocked. "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail." > >More to the point, even *knowing* Helltongue is dissonant for angels, >isn't it? >From what I can tell, /learning/ it is dissonant. However, most Redeemed still know it (unless their AA strips the knowledge or something), listening to/understanding it isn't dissonant in and of itself, and anyone who's learned it can speak it freely - if they /lie/ in it, though, they get dissonant. Of course, Yves being Yves, I doubt the above rules /apply/ to him. ^^ ~S.D. Ryukage *** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 23:47:19 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> [3 Souls] The Thing with Three Souls Neel, I love you and I'm glad you're back. You're one of the few people of whom I make a point of reading, if not saving, everything they say. In other words, I adore you the way others adore Moe. And I'm happy-shiny-fuzzy you've come back to us. > life. But: he's still a person. He's somebody who had his personality > systematically mutilated to fit some perverse impulse Nybbas had for > an instant sometime in 1986. We really should compare ntoes at some point. My current game is also absed upon apocalyptic themes, and one of the things I'm running with is "Nybbas as Antichrist". I think we see the Photogenic Prince in pretty much the same light.... - -- Casca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:04:45 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> The List > Ah, good. Then I can look at it again at some point in the future and > decide if I want to keep it or not. O:> I think you'd better change it. The first paragraph implies that mortals can visit the Library: "though from time to time a human who is entirely innocent of evil (usually a child) can stumble into the Library by accident." Mortal bodies can't visit the celestial realms. Also, according to the text, causing disturbance or damaging books forces the perpetrator to wander the stacks for about two weeks, stealing a book causes expulsion, but beyond that no consequences implied, whereas following the rules and petitioning for access can get you permanently barred. That's just weird. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 08:04:46 -0500 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> wouldn't finish off... Janus vs Valefor in a steel cage match! (At last we'll get to see them both at the same time!) And neither one shows up. >> Any ideas for DP who wouldn't finish off an AA? > > Lilith. She would sense the AA's Need to go on living > and offer to take a Geas instead. The question is, which > AA's would accept? };> If the AA already owes Lilith, she wouldn't kill. She isn't one to lower her own stock options. > Jordi... [] allowing for Heaven, and consequently > Animals, to gain a major coup. Not to mention that instinct for bringing down the weak and sick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:52:15 +0100 From: shadur@systemec.nl (Rens Houben) Subject: Re: IN> The List In other news for Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 08:04:45AM -0500, BC Petery has been seen typing: > > Ah, good. Then I can look at it again at some point in the future and > > decide if I want to keep it or not. O:> > I think you'd better change it. The first paragraph implies that mortals can > visit the Library: "though from time to time a human who is entirely > innocent of evil (usually a child) can stumble into the Library by > accident." Mortal bodies can't visit the celestial realms. The Library exists in all realms simultaneously. Haven't you read Pratchett? Any sufficiently large concentration of books will distort normal space/time and form a link into L-Space. ;) - -Shad. - -- Rens Houben | opinions are mine Resident linux guru and sysadmin | if my employers have one Systemec Internet Services. |they'll tell you themselves PGP public key at http://swordbreaker.systemec.nl/shadur.key.asc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:55:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and killing (Was Finishing off...) - --- phillip@mbaysav.org wrote: > Can you actually get a geas from not killing > someone? It's one > thing to save their life; if they're hanging from a cliff > and you pull them up, > yeah you've done something. On the other hand if you see > some guy lying on the > couch and decide not to kill him, I don't know about > getting a geas from it. It's more a matter of actively sparing a life after you let the subject know that you can kill her. Basically it's saying, "I won't kill you if..." =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always evil." -- Jimmy Carter

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 22:47:04 +0800 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> The List > The Library exists in all realms simultaneously. Haven't you read > Pratchett? Any sufficiently large concentration of books will distort > normal space/time and form a link into L-Space. ;) I'd forgotten about that. And it explains *so much* about my apartment ... Janet Anderson ************************************************* Seraph: What do we want to do if he turns out to be an infernal? Malakite: I'm kinda hoping we don't find that out definitively. Leaving a long string of bodies behind us isn't a really good idea. - -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://www.graffiti.net Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:15:52 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> wouldn't finish off... >Would Novalis soul kill anyone? If yes, anyone other than Saminga? For all that it's a favorite topic on the list, I don't think any Superior has changed sides since THE Fall. So even Novalis must reckon the chance of redeeming a Prince to be very, very low. So, if she met a boadyly wounded Prince in the Far Marches, yes, she'd probably kill it. Unless... she reckoned that, by injuring it further and letting in limp back to Hell, she'd create more political chaos in Hell than she'd get by leaving their throne empty. Then weigh this advantage, if it exists, against the dangers of leaving alive an enemy with a now-heightened grudge. After all, being intensely interested in peace, Novalis must have made a study of such political situations. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:38:46 -0700 From: "Rampaging Crypto-Man" Subject: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. You can age your vessel at a normal rate. Can you ever unage it? I ruled in the game that you have to get a Superior to do it for you. How can an angel restore sight to a blind man? I'm heard that the Song of Entropy cannot be used to turn an adult into a child or a baby... but what can it be used for? The main book talks about it being used to make a vessel really old or really young. Is there a cut-off to hold old/young you can make someone? And if you use it on an old person, and make then young, will many of the ailments of age be cured? There's also an attunement (Eli Ofanim, I believe) that has a similar effect. Does it work the same as Entropy? If you know a song of level 5-6, can you also attack the same round that you use it? Can you make a Force of Will attack (as per the GMG) and still take a normal action? Does armor always work, or does it only add to the check digit of a successful dodge? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:10:45 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. At 10:38 AM 1/9/2003 -0700, Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: >You can age your vessel at a normal rate. Can you ever unage it? I ruled >in the game that you have to get a Superior to do it for you. Please give a reference to this. The only reference I can find is IN p. 48, where the discussion of aging and de-aging vessels explicitly mentions requiring the Corporeal Song of Entropy. >How can an angel restore sight to a blind man? Divine Intervention on the Corporeal Song of Healing. Otherwise, IIRC, permanent physical disabilities cannot be removed once the Body hits are healed. >I'm heard that the Song of Entropy cannot be used to turn an adult into a >child or a baby... but what can it be used for? The main book talks about >it being used to make a vessel really old or really young. Is there a >cut-off to hold old/young you can make someone? And if you use it on an old >person, and make then young, will many of the ailments of age be cured? Liber Canticorum, in direct contradiction of several other references in canon, states that this is not actually the case, and gives the example of the Song turning a sapling into an old sapling rather than a fully-grown tree. However, IN p. 48 explicitly states that the Corporeal Song of Entropy can be used to make a vessel appear older or younger, and I recall several other points which make reference to this function as well, although my books are at home and incomplete at any rate. >There's also an attunement (Eli Ofanim, I believe) that has a similar >effect. Does it work the same as Entropy? Not exactly. The attunement has slightly different mechanics regarding the amount of time the Ofanite can age something, and the attunement's target is not allowed to resist. >If you know a song of level 5-6, can you also attack the same round that you >use it? This is in the FAQ. (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/) The simple answer: No. A Song takes an action to perform, regardless of how well you know it. >Can you make a Force of Will attack (as per the GMG) and still take a normal >action? IIRC, no. A Force of Will attack uses an action. You only get one action per turn. A good rule of thumb is as follows: if you are using a supernatural power and the power's description does not explicitly state that it does not use an action (or that you can do other things during the same round), it uses an action, and you may not do anything else that turn except move, dodge, and resist. If you have to make a roll of any kind, and you are not dodging or resisting, you are using an action and may not do anything else that turn except move, dodge, and resist. (Using the Running skill to improve the distance you move in a round is an action. Using Will to fend off a mental attack is not an action.) >Does armor always work, or does it only add to the check digit of a >successful dodge? This is on IN p. 61. Armor always works for that hit location. (I mention hit locations here because it makes little sense to wear a bracer with Protection 4 and have *all* damage reduced by 4 while the bracer is intact.) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:23:16 -0700 From: "Rampaging Crypto-Man" Subject: Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. > Please give a reference to this. The only reference I can find is IN p. > 48, where the discussion of aging and de-aging vessels explicitly mentions > requiring the Corporeal Song of Entropy. I think it's in the same side-bar you're referencing -- the one that discusses vessels, and what they can do. It says that a vessel doesn't need sleep, food, and so on, and then says the angel can choose to have it age at a normal rate if he wishes. It's right before the part talking about using the Song of Entropy. Thanks for the rest of the answers. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:31:25 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. At 11:23 AM 1/9/2003 -0700, Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: >I think it's in the same side-bar you're referencing -- the one that >discusses vessels, and what they can do. It says that a vessel doesn't need >sleep, food, and so on, and then says the angel can choose to have it age at >a normal rate if he wishes. It's right before the part talking about using >the Song of Entropy. Ah, yes; somehow I missed this line. I don't think this is a conscious action; I'd suggest, in fact, that in order to do this one must have a vessel crafted to do it automatically. (In other words, most vessels don't age, but when you get a new vessel you may choose to have it age normally rather than remain unaging.) So yes, only Superiors can de-age a vessel without Corporeal Entropy. In addition, only Superiors can *age* a vessel without Corporeal Entropy. Which gives me an interesting idea... - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:40:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. - --- EDG wrote: > >If you know a song of level 5-6, can you also attack the > same round that you use it? > > This is in the FAQ. > (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/) The simple > answer: No. A Song takes an action to perform, > regardless of how well you know it. Exception: Kyrios with multiple Vessels and/or a manifest celestial form. Each form gets one action, but only one can use a Song. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always evil." -- Jimmy Carter

__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:49:26 -0700 From: "Rampaging Crypto-Man" Subject: Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. > I'd suggest, in fact, that in order to do this one must have a vessel crafted to do it automatically. I had a similar thought, but went a different route and required that the vessel have a role in order to age naturally. > -EDG Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:54:31 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Healing, Entropy, Aging, etc. At 11:49 AM 1/9/2003 -0700, Rampaging Crypto-Man wrote: >I had a similar thought, but went a different route and required that the >vessel have a role in order to age naturally. That's an interesting approach. It gives a surreal aspect to characters without Roles: they never change, never age. The bum on the corner is always there, and always looks the same, regardless of how many years you walk by. Hm. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:55:01 -0500 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians On 1/9/03 5:01 AM, "Rens Houben" wrote: > ... And on a side note, does Asmodeus' Humanity Attunement work in this > particular regard as well? i.e., does a Mercurian get dissonant if he > punches a demon that's using it? On one hand, it's not actually a human > he's punching... But on the other hand, if he doesn't KNOW that for > certain he's choosing to punch what he can't be sure isn't a real > human... And angelic Dissonance is due to choosing to go against your > nature... The dissonance condition for Cherubim seems to argue against the latter point. (Which actually has always bothered me a bit....) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:33:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> wouldn't finish off... At 9:15 PM -0800 1/8/03, Kish wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 3:58 PM -0400 1/8/03, Randy Finder wrote: >> >Would Novalis soul kill anyone? If yes, anyone other than Saminga? >> >> If she thought it necessary, I suspect so. Saminga, Belial, Baal, and >> Kronos, would be in her top four list, with Vapula right there in place >> number five, I suspect. > >Not Malphas? > >I'd be inclined to put him in place #2, if not #1. Knew I was forgetting someone. Put Vappiekins in #6, certs. - -- - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:47:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and killing (Was Finishing off...) At 5:34 AM +0000 1/9/03, phillip@mbaysav.org wrote: >> Lilith would rather someone owed her a favor. > >You see, I wonder about this. Not whether or not she would, but if it works >that way. Can you actually get a geas from not killing someone? You can if you lean on a big ol' sword and point out that swearing an itty-bitty Geas will leave you alive to smite again someday... Or, quite frankly, just smile enigmatically and let the released -- even _aided_ -- Archangel wonder about Superior-level Geas-hooks. Or smile and say that it's "on your honor" whether it's counted a favor or not. There are more kinds of favors than Geases, and more kinds of hooks than Geas-hooks. >It's one thing to save their life; if they're hanging from a cliff and you pull >them up, yeah you've done something. On the other hand if you see some guy >lying on the couch and decide not to kill him, I don't know about getting a >geas from it. If you can find the Need not to be killed (by you?) in the target's soul, then you can get the hook, basically. If that Need isn't there, for whatever reason (they don't know you're there, they don't feel they're in danger, they're unconscious, etc.), then no hookee. Singing a bit of Healing is a nice way to emphasize, "I coulda had you, but I'm _helping_ you!" And may give you another small hook, or at least sugar- coat the first one. [On a later email: the hook is set when the target accepts the favor. Getting it "in writing" that you expect repayment is preferred, in order to lessen the chance of the target blowing all his Essence to resist. But in canon, the target can only refuse the hook by refusing the favor. With some favors, this can take some ingenuity and fast-thinking!] [Many GMs rule otherwise -- that if the target doesn't know a favor will be called in, the hook doesn't set.] >I guess I'm wondering whether or not inactivity counts for Geasa or not. After >all, if that were the case than anytime a lilim read someone and got a CD of 6 >they'd get 'not die'. That's only a Need, I suspect, if the person thinks that he _is_ going to die Soon. Normally? I don't think it preys on people all that much... >"The path of a true Magical Girl is fraught with peril." >Keroberos, Card Captor Go Kero-chan! O:> - -- - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:45:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> EPG Cover Art At 3:52 AM -0600 1/9/03, Andrew Hackard wrote: >At 11:40 PM 01/08/03 -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Why am I thinking of the Game Master's Guide as between GIN and EPG? > >Crack? ;-) > >The GMG was published before I started working at SJ Games; GIN was after. Hm. Maybe I've hopped timelines again... - -- - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 12:05:16 -0800 From: " Cameron McCurry" Subject: Re: IN> wouldn't finish off... >>Would Novalis soul kill anyone? If yes, anyone other than Saminga? Don't forget Fleurity. She REALLY dislikes the DP of Drugs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:55:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The List At 8:04 AM -0500 1/9/03, BC Petery wrote: [me wrote:] >> Ah, good. Then I can look at it again at some point in the future and >> decide if I want to keep it or not. O:> > >I think you'd better change it. The first paragraph implies that mortals can >visit the Library: "though from time to time a human who is entirely >innocent of evil (usually a child) can stumble into the Library by >accident." Mortal bodies can't visit the celestial realms. Fnord. (I know why that's there -- it's a plot device in an INS/MV adventure. I might _not_ want to eliminate that...) - -- - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:53:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians At 1:18 AM -0500 1/9/03, William J. Keith wrote: >>>Would Marc kill Lilith? >> >>Only if he wants to be dissonant. Mercurian. Human. No hittee. > >That... is an interesting and highly relevant point. In fact, now that >it's been brought up, I can see it as being a defining element of Marc and >Lilith's relationship. Yes, definitely. I don't know if it got expanded upon in FotM, but in the expanded expansion sitting on my hard drive, it definitely gets noted as one reason why they came to their "understanding." Lilith was relatively weak and young; Marc couldn't lay a hand on her. Of _course_ it would turn into deal-wrangling and whatnot, and from there, respect... >Eli, too. Yup-yup. >For that matter, Lilith and the Impudite >Princes as well: Andre, Nybbas, and Alaemon (to a lesser extent, but he's >still a cold fish for an Impudite). And if you make sure not to walk into something Funny, Kobal. Of course, they're "cannot KILL." Enslave? You betcha. >Neither Marc nor Eli may lay a hand on Lilith. Neat. Must ponder >consequences. To toss in some total non-canon stuff, wasn't there the "Malakite Regressor" McGuffin Vaputech artifact a while back? And _who_ was seen (in that non-canon post), sporting a wing fading back to black from white after stalking from the room the thing was in? So give Lilith a Malakite Regressor Beam rifle with a sniper-scope, and terrorize your PCs someday. It's good for them. Really. At 11:01 AM +0100 1/9/03, Rens Houben wrote: >In other news for Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 01:18:12AM -0500, William J. Keith has been seen typing: >> Neither Marc nor Eli may lay a hand on Lilith. Neat. Must ponder >> consequences. > >If you want to go one better (I probably wouldn't since I think it'd >upset the balance of the game)... Lilim can only be made by Lilith, [...] >If she could pull it off, that'd mean her Daughters would >be effectively immune from harm by an entire Choir... True -- but I doubt that's gonna happen in canon. Now, if you had a few "prototype" Human Lilim running around, that might be a nice McGuffin... >... And on a side note, does Asmodeus' Humanity Attunement work in this >particular regard as well? i.e., does a Mercurian get dissonant if he >punches a demon that's using it? On one hand, it's not actually a human >he's punching... But on the other hand, if he doesn't KNOW that for >certain he's choosing to punch what he can't be sure isn't a real >human... And angelic Dissonance is due to choosing to go against your >nature... Unless the Mercurian were drop-dead positive that this was really a demon (e.g., he'd just seen it in celestial form, and then it envesseled itself), I suspect that he'd get dissonant for "mistaking" a human for a demon, yes. (Dissonance is more personal than objective; Seraphim don't get dissonant for repeating something they thought was true!) And even if he was drop-dead positive, when that disturbance of "you hit a corporeal being!" rings out, he's gonna be confused and/or disturbed. About the only way to get only mild wincing would be someone who _knew_ about the attunement, knew the target had it, has seen the target was a demon previously (i.e., too recently for a swap)... and the Mercurian would probably still wince a little. Impudites are in the same boat, too. O:> - -- - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:33:58 -0800 From: Harukami Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians >>Neither Marc nor Eli may lay a hand on Lilith. Neat. Must ponder >>consequences. > >To toss in some total non-canon stuff, wasn't there the "Malakite >Regressor" McGuffin Vaputech artifact a while back? And _who_ was seen >(in that non-canon post), sporting a wing fading back to black from >white after stalking from the room the thing was in? Moe's THE DEVOLVO RAY!!!!!? ^^ Man. ...Wow. That day, it'd suck to be Laurence... ^_~ Unless he was willing to grit his teeth and accept the dissonance, as it's not 'normal' for a Malakite, but... ^_~ http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/artifacts/DEVOLVO.htm Haru - ---- "Then again... we depended on Elly today, and we got locked in a room with Maria to be interrogated by Judgment Malakim." "Oh, like she coulda seen that coming." http://haru_in.tripod.com/ Haru's IN page: Game logs, art, and fiction. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:42:27 -0500 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: IN> Wouldn't finish off... On 1/8/03 7:00 PM, "jamoge@wm.edu" wrote: > Jordi... tough call. On the one hand, true. Jordi has > little contact with Asmodeus, but hey, a Demon Prince > is a Demon Prince, especially one so close to the > workings of Hell. Taking out Asmodeus might cause a > lot of the corrupt human establishments on Earth to > fall apart, allowing for Heaven, and consequently > Animals, to gain a major coup. In an even moderately bright game, I think Jordi would be even more vicious than this implies. Here's my take. It's quite possibly very alternate, as I don't have the books in front of me. It's also quite possibly very incoherent, as I've had too little sleep for the past few days. And finally, could someone get the giant flashing "IMHO" sign and leave it on for a while? Thanks. Except in a "Jordi is about to Fall" settings, it isn't really that Jordi hates humanity. It's that he *honestly believes* humans are going to screw the world up past the point where it can be salvaged, that they're going to take their toys and break *everything* with them. They expand and expand and expand; if they don't stop themselves, or if nothing stops them, they're going to literally consume the world. So how are they screwing it up? Is it that there isn't anything that can stop them? No, because that's a consequence of their sapience, which God gave them in the first place. Predation can't be part of the plan, unless God wanted to *let* them overrun and destroy the Earth--and even Jordi doesn't want to go there. So, again, how are they screwing it up? It's got to be the other point. A failure internal to humans. It's a good bet that they were supposed to stop themselves: to *use* their intelligence to recognize that they were a part of a system, and that system was something to be respected. And the thing is, a great many tribal cultures did this, in general, if imperfectly. Then civilization came along, with its technology and customs and rules. Most especially, most, most especially, its rules. Its rules for what you do where, where you can go and where you can't, its rules so many and so varied that they push natural *sense* out of the mind, push away all thought of simply doing what natural common sense (with a decent dose of tradition) can tell you is the right thing in exchange for the self-contained and self-containing goal of Following The Rules. And then they decide to impose their rules on *nature*, on other animals, as though they are things that should listen, as though the planet were something that would mold itself to the whims of their eyeblink lives, as though they were there when the foundations of the earth were laid. Arrogant. And not merely arrogant, foolish. Jordi's view of humans has a great deal of anger, but also a great deal of pity. It would be almost comically pitiful, except for the fact that they're right in one sense: they can't make the world do what they want it to do, but they've developed an absolutely spectacular capacity to destroy it when it won't. Yes, certainly, there are worthy things about civilization. Several of them. The general idea of minimization of suffering is something that Jordi can get behind pretty seriously, for instance. But the fact is, in the final analysis and far too often, civilization is simply the cage with which humans cage themselves, the cage they love and decorate and dote on, while forgetting the simplest, most basic things that any idiot can see are good ideas. So. Now that we're there. What's The Game? The Game is rules. It is rules incarnate. It is rules and definitions gone crazy and taking on a life of their own, twisted and demented and *specifically* against plain sense, specifically unnatural because that's the *point*. The Game takes all this one step further. The entire *purpose* of The Game is to trap and cage. It isn't a side effect, it's what it's there for. Asmodeus isn't just a representative of civilization. Asmodeus is a representative of *everything Jordi hates most about civilization.* Jordi wouldn't only kill Asmodeus. He would kill Asmodeus, tear apart the corpse, and then proceed to rip shred from shred until it was absolutely certain that no single Force was still bound to any other. And he'd be in a better mood for weeks afterward. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:47:40 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> The List >> Ah, good. Then I can look at it again at some point in the future and >> decide if I want to keep it or not. O:> > >I think you'd better change it. The first paragraph implies that mortals can >visit the Library: "though from time to time a human who is entirely >innocent of evil (usually a child) can stumble into the Library by >accident." Mortal bodies can't visit the celestial realms. I happen to like that bit. It's in Yves' writeup in Superiors 3, too, both as description of the Library and as his "Right of Passage" attunement; its also in GURPS: In Nomine, so I'd call it pretty well established. Perhaps the gateways use a version of the Song of Projection (Celestial) or Transfiguration, or some other ability like Rikbiel's ability to bring a living human to Heaven. Yves is a version of God, and it's speculated that the Library is a version of God's subconscious; a bit of unusualness with regard to the standard rules is hardly unexpected, and not too worrisome, IMO. >Also, according to the text, causing disturbance or damaging books forces >the perpetrator to wander the stacks for about two weeks, stealing a book >causes expulsion, but beyond that no consequences implied, whereas following >the rules and petitioning for access can get you permanently barred. That's >just weird. Now this, I agree on. Neither G:IN nor Sup3 has the expulsion rule, and I don't think I would use such a rule. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:03:44 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith and Mercurians >>For that matter, Lilith and the Impudite >>Princes as well: Andre, Nybbas, and Alaemon (to a lesser extent, but he's >>still a cold fish for an Impudite). > >And if you make sure not to walk into something Funny, Kobal. Augh, I can't believe I forgot an Impudite Prince. Ah well. >So give Lilith a Malakite Regressor Beam rifle with a sniper-scope, >and terrorize your PCs someday. It's good for them. Really. You know, I know this intellectually, but find it *very* hard to be intentionally mean. Twice now, I've run a Palladium game meant to poke fun at the sheer institutional violence in the game world, calling it "Bloodfest." Total casualties for both games: 1. :^) >-- >--Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor >http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:26:15 -0500 From: "Wajenberg, Earl" Subject: RE: IN> Wouldn't finish off... Matthew Gerber wrote: "Asmodeus isn't just a representative of civilization. Asmodeus is a representative of *everything Jordi hates most about civilization.*" Sounds very plausible. Asmodeus might also be a pet hate of Eli's. Nybass is Eli's usual nemesis, and that's plausible too, but Asmodeus' trap of rules is a sort of Kafka-esque anti-creativity that probably grates a lot on Eli's nerves. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2926 ********************************