============ OGRE/GEV list, March 7th (Last: March 3rd) ============= ===== Request for miniatures list From: Eric Jome ===== SEALS and Campaign rules. From: "Stephen A. Said" ===== GURPS Ogre: Meta and Designer's Notes From: fish ===== Sci-Fi Supply and OGRE Macrotures From: SFsupply@aol.com ===== OGRE: SEALS, RANGERS & SNIPERS From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== Unit values From: Chris Camfield ------------------------------ From: Eric Jome Subject: Request for miniatures list hi! i am looking to complete a product list of all the miniatures so far produced for the Ogre Miniatures rules. Specifically, i am interested in the units that Ral Partha produced; a complete listing with product numbers would be ideal... thanks for your help! respond to ejome@execpc.com eric ------------------------------ From: "Stephen A. Said" Subject: SEALS and Campaign rules. bravo garth, my friend and i have been using special forces for the last two years. although we've simply combined the engineer/hws/marine abilities into the unit. also stealth movement. it was limited to, "when you fire or come into 1 hex range of an enemy unit, you're busted!) type rule. i created a scenario which allows you the option of including a seal type team. the trick then is, the opponent has to determine wether you have the unit in play or not. being a campaign type player, your unit allocation is dependent on cash and resources, rather than initial setup points, therefore your opponent can't determine wether you've used up your setup armour and infantry allocation. it makes for a very interesting game. i will be incorporating your ideas! thad, thanks for your comments. once i start my new job next week, i can settle down somewhat and continue work on the campaign rules i started developing. your input into unit construction was great. what i'm currently trying to decide is wether to set up campaign play as a nations armed forces, or as a mercenary type army that can build itself up with cash, capturing of factory facilities etc. also, i have found two great programs on the net. the first is a fractal world generator. you can do the colonize space by military force thing. the other is a program called grid. it was originally designed by an AD&D fan who wanted a way to create different scales of campaign maps and then have it generate random encounters for parties travelling overland. i have used it to create different scale maps of europe, and then have doctored the encounter tables to include different unit mixes including sattelite orbital bombardment. therefore, if you're playing the mercenary army type campaign, travelling through neutral areas that aren't directly related to the campaign, you can get a decent 'response from a third party nation/warlord responding to an armed incursion' type of feel. anyways, goto go. i only have two more working days left here, so i better contribute something substantial other than and internet bill! i'm also still looking for copies of battlesuit/gev and ogre (the old counter based version). any in australia? regards, sed ------------------------------ From: fish Subject: GURPS Ogre: Meta and Designer's Notes I've been wanting for quite a while now to do a GURPS adaptation of the Ogre universe... I was basically only waiting until I got a copy of GURPS Vehicles (2nd edition), which I did a while ago, and I've been fiddling with the numbers since then. The conclusion which I've reached is this: It's not possible. --- Before I get into *why*, those of you who have little or no interest in GURPS should probably skip to the end, where the GURPS stuff ends. There are a few things which are unclear within the Ogre universe, so if there's any advice you could lend me I'd be grateful. --- Technically the Ogre universe is at TL9 in GURPS terms. Indeed, for a long time (and, arguably, even now) Ogre was *all* that was happening at TL9 -- Most sf campaigns are either TL10 or 11, or else TL8 for the near-future-cyberpunk milieu. Okay, TL9. Fine. BPC armour, all very well and good. Unfortunately, it is simply not possible to create a 200-pound battlesuit at TL9 which is capable of moving at the speeds ascribed to them in the games. Which, incidentally, varies. Battlesuit gives an open-ground movement value of 42 mph for your standard run-of-the-mill battlesuit trooper, whereas Ogre/GEV/Ogre Minis gives 28 mph... while the road movement comes to 42 mph. Anyway, even given the lower speed, the drivetrain alone takes up most of the weight, and there's no *way* you could fit in jump jets capable of lifting the suit in addition, much less enough TL9 laminate armour to block the flash effect of a nuke. (Surprisingly, it's the flash, more than the concussion, that you have to worry about -- since DR is squared versus concussion damage, a little goes a long way...) --- My solution is this, more or less: (And take this with a grain of salt, because I'm not actually done with the design yet -- I hope to finish at least the basic battlesuit design before Henry sends out the next digest, though) Since BPC is described as being such a miraculous breakthrough in structural technology, I figure that a lot of the masses should be counted as if they were TL10 technology. This is especially true when you look at the progressive tables -- TL9 stuff isn't really a whole lot lighter than TL8, certainly not enough so that BPC could be blamed for the root cause of worldwide nuclear war. ("God, I love it so...") So: Typical BPC armour is TL10 expensive (or maybe standard) laminate. Battlesuits carry standard TL10 ablative armour, because 1) normal BPC is still too heavy to carry enough, and 2) that's the only thing that could account for the progressive damage scheme in Battlesuit -- if they carried normal non-ablative armour, the scale of the damage is such that if *any* got through the armour they wouldn't be simply damaged, they'd be reduced to their component atoms. So: Most materials technology (drivetrains, propulsion, structure, etc. -- the big stuff) can be counted as TL10 for mass purposes, although it still takes as much volume as it would had it been TL9. I'm thinking about boosting the cost to twice TL9 standard as well. (Note that since cost is generally based on weight, I'm assuming it to be standard TL9 weight for price calculations already anyway.) Basically this is assuming a BPC construction, rather than the more mundane TL9 materials, and since BPC hasn't been described as being especially compact (just *light*) the standard volume makes sense. So: everything else is more or less as standard in Vehicles. I'm having some difficulties fiddling with damage numbers, since there's only one qualitative statement in the literature (i.e. A GEV can carry enough BPC so that it takes a .001 kiloton nuke to blow through it -- .001 kilotons is 12d x 2,000 damage, for those of you who are wondering), and since the *distance* that blast is at is immensely important. Plus, the SATNUC submunition warheads (described in Vehicles as being the standard Ogre-universe indirect-fire warheads) only do 6d x 2,000 with a direct hit... so I'm figuring the .001 kiloton nuke is assumed to be at a bit of a distance. And all those figures gives a pretty good number for the amount of armor needed to survive a given attack. --- I'm perfectly willing to accept whatever assistance anyone wants to give me, with designs but *especially* (and this is where you non-GURPS people come in) with any info you can give me on the Ogre universe itself. Sure, a .001 kiloton warhead will blow away a GEV, but is that assumed to be a direct hit? A burst 100 yards away? 200? Things which specifically need to be cleared up: -- What sort of weaponry do infantrymen carry in general? Sure, there are heavy missile cannon (described in Battlesuit, and as HWI in Minis), and those are relatively easy to figure out, but what does your average grunt carry? Smaller nucler-tipped rockets? Conventional weapons? A couple thoughts on this: Somewhere infantry are described as carrying "both conventional and anti-tank weaponry" -- I'm guessing 'conventional' to mean 'non-nuclear'. So, HEAT rockets? Slugthrowers? Also, battlesuits in Battlesuit are depicted (in the art) as generally carrying pistols. This, of course, is silly, and I'm not intending on following it, especially as infantry in the minis game seem to be holding rifles, but it's a thought -- *what* do those pistols fire? -- How much punishment should a battlesuit be able to withstand? .001 kiloton, as for GEVs? (This is impossible, unless you use the ablative armour.) .0001 kiloton? At what distance are they expected to be able to survive a nuclear burst of a given force? Since concussion damage quarters every so often (and is generally ineffective against sealed armour), and flash damage decreases with the square of the distance, the farther away you are the better condition you're in. So, what's a reasonable expectation? -- What sort of guidance do missiles have? Optical? Infrared? Radar/Ladar? -- What sort of countermeasures are used? How does point-defense weaponry work? Are they lasers, railguns, small nukes themselves? -- How heavy would you estimate a given armour unit to be? We've got a figure (and a Size class, although I'm not sure that's a good measure) of the mass of an Ogre (50 tons or something, I'd have to double-check), but that's not quite enough for in-depth designs. --- Anyway, I'm having fun tooling around with attempting to describe the universe in greater detail. Ogre's a great game, with a fascinating (if thinly-sketched out, and when are they going to update the Ogre webpage again?) world. Oh, and did anyone see that Arcane (I think it was Arcane) survey, where Ogre came in at about ninth most popular of all wargames. Not bad... especially considering the other ones tended to be rules-fests that only the most diehard of grognards could comprehend. -- fish. | Fish Flowers ><> | | (Malakite of Power Gaming.) (I don't exist.) (Fnord.) | | awflower@midway.uchicago.edu eidolon@io.com | | http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/awflower/index.html | ----- [Infantry can be killed by weapons that incapable of penetrating vehicle armor. (See the OGRE's AP guns.) I suggest that they probally can't take anything like a direct Nuke hit and simply hide behind a ridge or something. (Dirt, it does a defensive position good.) Just like modern infantry will move in spurts. So when you nuke infantry, you tag those few that are rushing between cover (Reducing a 3/1 unit to a 2/1 say), but most of the time the grunts practice "Duck and Cover". -HJC] ------------------------------ From: SFsupply@aol.com Subject: Sci-Fi Supply and OGRE Macrotures Hello everyone, We will be at the following conventions this year: MEGACON '97 in Orlando, FL, March 14-16 WARFAIR '97 in Atlanta, GA, March 28-30 GENCON '97 in Milwaukee, WI, August 7-10 We will be running OGRE Macrotures at all these conventions. Regretfully, we cannot attend a lot of conventions (due to the fact that we all have full-time jobs besides Sci-Fi Supply). However, if someone out there is running a con and REALLY wants Ogre Macrotures there, you might be able to get me out there with 'em if you are willing to pay for transportation, food and lodging (figure, roughly around $150 to $200 cash plus the lodging) If you run a con (or are on its staff) and are interested, email us. best, flunky (Hey! We're worth it! Really! Trust me!) ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: OGRE: SEALS, RANGERS & SNIPERS Since when have SEALS carried long range firepower? You'd be surprised at what they use today! Actually, I was thinking about their little dunebuggy, which IS armed to the teeth. Since I didn't want to give them a "free" GEV-PC, so I sort of incorporated it into their BattleSuit -- thus the faster movement and the HWS/MSL attack ability. I was trying to make the baddest infantry ever, and I thought I succeeded. But if you think that's too much, we don't have to call them SEALS. Your idea of calling them RANGERS works just as well. However, while typing this, I just came up with another idea: SNIPERS. In games terms, SNIPERS are a two-man infantry team (the sniper and his spotter) which costs 6 VP's (three INF) with combat values of Attack 1 Range 4 (8") Movement 2/1 (4"/2") Defense 0 (1 in woods/swamps, 2 in towns). Their attack is never combined with other units (except with a defending infantry squad being overrun), never counts for spillover, nor doubled during overruns. SNIPERS will never overrun enemy units. However, if they begin their turn in the adjacent hex to an enemy unit, they may take ONE shot at said enemy unit (count this as their overrun attack) before they use their movement. There can never be two SNIPERS in the same hex together, no matter what other troops are there. SNIPERS do not count against stacking; they can be joined to an Infantry squad, gaining protection of the higher defense rating. They do not combine their attacks, both use their own normally. SNIPERS move by "stealth movement rules", they are not placed on the board unless their location is revealed to the enemy. They are automatically revealed if they are overrun, if they end any movement phase (either player's) in an adjacent hex (within 2") to an enemy unit, or if they move thru CLEAR terrain within sighting range (as defined in my post about SEALS) of an enemy that has good line-of-sight on them. Also, there is a 50-50 chance they are revealed if there are enemy units with LOS/sight range when the SNIPER fires. The target unit counts, assuming it survives, whether or not it has LOS/sight range. Comments?? And should anyone think that snipers are useless in major combat situations, I suggest they read the book MARINE SNIPER. Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ----- [The only hidden placement I can justify to myself at the moment is Militia in concealed foxholes. They are revealed if overrun or if they do anything, but not if they are simply destroyed by recon by fire. (How are you going to spot the vapourised remains in the fireball?) OGRE: "I move to here." Tricky Human: "Got a Militia there, 1-2 on the missile rack." OGRE: "Urk!" BTW: Shouldn't that be "SEALS and RANGERS and SNIPERS, oh my!"? -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Chris Camfield Subject: Unit values Here's a question for the list or anyone interested in GEV/Ogre unit values in general: We've known for a long time that multiple 1-1 attacks are better than a single X-1 attack. So why (other than ease) should a unit value formula use attack strength as a linear factor? If getting a 2-1 attack is not twice as good as a 1-1, should it cost twice as much to get it? I'm wondering if reasoning along this line could solve the "hordes of light GEVs" problem, amongst others. :-) Chris Chris Camfield - Big Rude Jake Webmaster - ccamfield@cyberus.ca Visit the BRJ Web page at "http://www.cyberus.ca/~ccamfield/brj"! "As the mob thickens, the mystery unfolds..." (BRJ, "Blue Pariah") ----- [But, A 1-2 is worth half of a 1-1 and Heavies can overrun single LGEVs with impunity. (OK, they loose their Militia squad, there goes a third of a point). The advantage comes when a unit can divide it's fire to make multiple attacks. (Inf platoons vs OGRE AP) -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.