============ OGREverse list, Mar 16th (Last: Feb 28th) ============= ===== Computer Ogre Scenarios? From: Nyrath the nearly wise ===== GeoHex From: Robert Gurskey ===== Vindicator Article From: "Eric T. Holmes" ===== Javascript unit worksheet. From: Steve Jackson ===== Militia From: Steve Jackson From: Steve Jackson ===== New Ogre maps From: bryan rombough ===== Beefing Up the SHVY From: Sethkimmel@aol.com From: Kerr Ballantyne From: Todd Zircher From: Fish Flowers From: "Duncan McEwen" ===== Campaign Battles! From: Adrian Dillon ===== Running on eNp-Ty From: jkajpust@concentric.net ------------------------------ From: Nyrath the nearly wise Subject: Computer Ogre Scenarios? The Atari and IBM versions of OGRE came with a set of pre-made "scenarios", that is, saved boards with a preset counter mix already arranged. Alas, my Atari doesn't work any more. Is there a kind soul out there who has a working copy of the game, willing to make a list of the types and location of the units in each of the scenarios? I'm still working on the Palm Pilot OGRE program. ------------------------------ From: Robert Gurskey Subject: GeoHex Henry, I have a question about GeoHex material. When they describe 1.5 inch hexes, how are the hexes measured? Does the 1.5 inch go from corner to diagonally opposite corner or from flat side to opposite flat side? I was just trying to figure out how large a G.E.V. map would be using 1.5 inch hexes. Robert Gurskey ------------------------------ From: "Eric T. Holmes" Subject: Vindicator Article Henry: Do you know what this article looks like.? I saw it on the Vindicator web pag. Vindicator, Vol. 2 Issue #2 TOC _Expanded Ogre/GEV CRT_ Eric Eric T. Holmes Artic Force Command, North American Combine (ARTFORCOM) o +. | * . ' \ \\_/|\_// / ___/(o)|(o)\___ ####"""""""#### Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings. OGRE MKVI They did it by killing all those who opposed them. Make sure you've got your dog-tags with you! G. Briggs ----- [Sorry, I don't even get a free subscription with this job and the local game store keeps saying that Vindicator is not published anymore. :( But I did get Steve to finally notice my web page and the first thing he tried was the Javascript unit worksheet http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/formcalc.html -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Steve Jackson Subject: Javascript unit worksheet. Aha. Okay. There is no terrain effects of "Immobile" listed. But if you pick Movement 0, a change in terrain type will change your VP value. A bit of documentation would be required to make sure everyone interpreted terminology the same way - for instance, with a Superheavy, should I be filling in First Attack 3 and Second Attack 3? (If so, the difference between two 3-point attacks and one 6-point attack is less than 1 VP. Think that's right?) Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [I base the movement modes on the Ogre Minis book, which groups immobile units in with other types for terrian effects. Simply switching between different types of armor for an immobile unit shouldn't change the VP, but switching it to an immobile infantry unit should up the VPs due to increased terrian protection. Yeah, I fill in Superheavy as 3 then 3 then 2 AP (combining the AP attacks). I calculated multiple attacks that could be split or combined from their expected effects on a single target. The result is mathmatically correct from that point of view, but doesn't factor in the ability to target multiple targets at once. (If a Superheavy had three 2 point attacks it would go up as 2 then 4 then 2 AP on the worksheet) -HJC] ----- From: Steve Jackson Subject: Militia The question is, should militia be more expensive (which might take some justification) or should they have more limitations on what they can do? I could justify not letting them ride vehicles at more than 2 hexes/turn, for instance... Hmm. To put militia into the boardgame, I will need to come up with a clean mechanic for letting them move only on alternate turns! Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [So I suggested http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/infantry.htm -HJC] ----- From: Steve Jackson Subject: Militia Yes, I read your notes. You make some good points. It's not very elegant to have Militia have different unit size and therefore riding rules, but everything else about them is different anyway, and it does solve other problems. In the boardgame, they should only move one hex every OTHER turn. A counter that moves and flips over might do it, with proper phasing. Hmm. Move any unflipped militia counters; flip them over; then unflip any militia counters that were already flipped? Or suggest that people move across the board, and for every militia counter EITHER move it or change its state as you come to it? The fact that they don't have suits will also let them fight less well - they won't be able to move as quickly to take good firing positions, and they won't coordinate NEARLY as well without that HUD. And yea, there's no way to justify their current cost. 1/2 might do it. (I am wondering if I had in mind "3 militia equal 1 infantry" and glitched that into "Militia cost is 1/3 of a point.) Or we could make them cost 1 VP and *improve* their abilities somewhat . . . I do want to do a "swarms of militia in the half-smashed city" scenario. Maybe a special scenario rule that spontaneously generates single militia counters in rubble no matter HOW much you've nuked it :-) Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [I don't think it can get any clearer than simply considering each counter once and then flipping it or not. This really isn't any different than the mechanic used to move units were you need to remember if you've already moved each unit. (I tend to rotate each counter 180 degrees after moving or firing it.) I just don't see the justification for letting a small group of unaided personnel carry around enough nuclear firepower to justify a price tag of one sixth of a heavy tank. But how about Militia Engineers? ("Alright you maggots! Today we're going to dig an OGRE trap and cover it over with earth and twigs." "Uh Sarge, can we use the nuclear charges?") -HJC] ------------------------------ From: bryan rombough Subject: New Ogre maps > I'm afraid I don't have the Shockwave map. Does it have the same layout > of columns/rows as the GEV map(23 columns, odd numbered columns having > 23 rows of hexes and even numbered columns having 22 rows) so that some > hexes would have to overlap, or is it the opposite(22 rows on odd > numbered columns and 23 rows on even numbered columns) so that one map > can just butt up against the other? > > Bryan > > ----- > > [They do abutt and the rivers and roads continue off every edge, so > with enough copies of the two maps you can build an infinite playfield. Ok, then my second guess was correct(23 columns, odd numbered columns have 22 hexes and even numbered columns have 23 hexes), right? ----- [Yeah. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Beefing Up the SHVY << From: Steve Jackson SHOCKWAVE will go back to press soon, so it's time to decide how to make the SHVY more valuable . . . This is based on my last note, plus comments from Garth and, I think, Fish. Option 1: Defense of 5. No other changes. SHVY is still disabled or killed as a unit. Option 2: Partial Damage. XX still kills it in Ogre Miniatures. But in Ogre/GEV, and on any single-X result in Minis, roll one die: 1, 2 - Disabled, and a single gun is lost. -3 VP. 3, 4 - Disabled, and "mobility kill"; SHVY can no longer move. -6 VP. 5, 6 - Destroyed, per normal X result. A second X on a damaged SHVY kills it. Option 3: Same as Option 2 . . . AND increase defense to 5. Option 4: The SHVY has 2 or even 3 or 4 factors of AP which cannot be hit separately, but which are used in attack just like Ogre AP. This isn't enough by itself, but would be worth something combined with the other options. Disadvantage: added complexity. Advantage: more realistic (why would they build something that big with no AP at all?), and makes the SHVY scarier. >> I vote against an armor factor of 5, since not even an Ogre's main gun has an armor factor of 5. In my opinion, the partial damage option (#2), combined with 2 AP's (to be consistent with the Minis rules) is the way to go (my G-D; I'm arguing with the DESIGNER of the flippen' game...:-) ). Seth ----- From: Kerr Ballantyne Subject: Beefing Up the SHVY Mr Jackson: I personally like: Option 1: Defense of 5. No other changes. SHVY is still disabled or killed as a unit. **MY REASON*** This makes it so that a OGRE will have to allocate some serious firepower towards it to destroy it. If you did option 4 then the SHVY is really a OGRE MARK I. DEF 5 means that at least 2 Secondary batteries must be fired at it to even have a 1:1 chance. Sincerely, Kerr Ballantyne ----- From: Todd Zircher Subject: Beefing Up the SHVY Chalk up a vote for option 4. As Henry pointed out, there is already a precedent set for this in the design of the mini. -- TAZ ------------------------------ From: Fish Flowers Subject: Beefing Up the SHVY > Option 2: Partial Damage. > XX still kills it in Ogre Miniatures. But in Ogre/GEV, and on any > single-X result in Minis, roll one die: > 1, 2 - Disabled, and a single gun is lost. -3 VP. > 3, 4 - Disabled, and "mobility kill"; > SHVY can no longer move. -6 VP. > 5, 6 - Destroyed, per normal X result. > > A second X on a damaged SHVY kills it. My experience has been that this option ups the complexity of the game significantly; I recommend that if you go with this option you also ship little SHVY record sheets, to keep track of the damage, which may help things. This certainly does make the SHVY attractive, though, especially with 2 AP guns. They tend to become _very_ fearsome, especially in Minis games, since they trump HVYs and INF both... > Option 4: The SHVY has 2 or even 3 or 4 factors of AP which cannot be hit > separately, but which are used in attack just like Ogre AP. This isn't > enough by itself, but would be worth something combined with the other > options. Disadvantage: added complexity. Advantage: more realistic (why > would they build something that big with no AP at all?), and makes the SHVY > scarier. I definitely like this option; I'd recommend combining this with either 1 or 2. (Is it feasible to do 2 and 4, and up the VP value?) Fish Flowers. ----- From: "Duncan McEwen" Subject: Beefing Up the SHVY Hey Steve (and other Ogre finatics), Just to chime in on the SuperHeavy issue, I feel that complexity is bad for Ogre. One of the best things about Orger/G.E.V. is that it is an easy and fast game. I hate miniture games where you spend 2 hours seting up and then another 2 hours for 2 turns. My friends and I played Massive cease-fire collases in a couple of hours or less. (of course we use the old paper and counters, minis are too expensive and take up too much room.) Based on the above statement, I would say don't invent a special hit table for the SHVY. That just make life more difficult. I personnaly think the SHVY is fine as is, it has 2 powerful and long range attachs with very good defenses. The addition of 2 AP battereies would be pretty cool and not make it much more complex. The only other thing would be to raise the defense to 5. However, I really like the balance it has now, a Hvy can get a 1:1 on a SHVY, and a SHVY can get 2 1:1s on the HVY. It also takes 2 GEVs to get the 1:1. Both of these are nice balances of 1 AP vs 2 AP. (Yes, I still use AP, but agree that VP is better.) Based on this, I guess my vote is to add the AP bateries but leave the SHVY alone otherwise. On a side note, How about an Orge/GEV strategic game? I know I was just talking about simplicity, but I would like a way to fight a war with the game. Perhapse something similar to Starfire/Imperial Starfire. (if you are familiar with those games.) That could be another possiblity for Ogre growth in the future. Thanks, Duncan McEwen P.S. I am very glad to hear that Ogre/G.E.V. is coming back into print. Thank you very much. ------------------------------ From: Adrian Dillon Subject: Campaign Battles! Does anyone know about the Order of Battle for the Gibraltar sortie? I have seen the peninsula on a map and it would fit an Ogre size map and have some left to spare. Any plans to put at least one "real" city (New York? or San Francisco during the Nipponese invasion?) I think that it would be cool at least once...And you thought godzilla was bad. Any thoughts on what the Ogre Mk I and II looked like? Semi-official designs? I think the MkII probably looks like the front half of a MKIII. ------------------------------ From: jkajpust@concentric.net Subject: Running on eNp-Ty I was just thinking, can you imagine an Ogre running on Windows? It would need to be twice as big just to carry the OS around and then would have to stop twice a day during the war just to reboot. > Hey Steve, let's lay out the map of france. You get OGREs and I get > GEVs. Think you can defend a front of 500 miles? (Silly me, the North > American inheritors of Ford and Gates got the OGREs and the GEVs against > light tanks...) -HJC] Jim Kajpust - Personal Responsibility - Personal Freedoms Michigan - http://www.concentric.net/~jkajpust ----- [See: http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/1997/gevapr04.txt -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2000, by Steve Jackson Games.